A teacher has been suspended after trying to force a Witness child to take part in the oath of allegiance
A teacher has been suspended after trying to force a Witness child to take part in the oath of allegiance

A teacher from Florida has been suspended without pay for forcing a Jehovah’s Witness fourth-grader to take part in the oath of allegiance.

The incident took place on September 11, when the boy’s teacher asked his class to salute the flag on the 12-year anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

When the boy refused to participate, teacher Anne Daigle-McDonald is said to have taken his wrist and placed it over his heart.

When the boy protested and pulled his arm down, the teacher is quoted to have said, “You are an American, and you are supposed to salute the flag.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses take political neutrality extremely seriously, and as such would find any such behavior offensive. Indeed, following an enquiry into the teacher’s conduct by the school district, it was found that Daigle-McDonald “violated a number of state education rules, professional conduct principles and the student’s right to free speech and freedom of religion.”

Daigle-McDonald has thus received a five-day suspension from work without pay. She has also been issued a formal letter of reprimand, and instructed to attend diversity training.

Is this teacher’s punishment fair?

Everyone will have their own opinions, depending on their religious or political views, as to whether Daigle-McDonald’s punishment fits her crime. Indeed, some extremely patriotic Americans might argue that no crime was committed at all.

I would argue that, though losing pay over this seems quite harsh, it was right for this teacher to receive some kind of disciplinary action without losing her job. Why do I say this?

I grew up as a Witness myself, and can remember only too well being involved in a similar incident with a teacher when I was only about seven years old.

On the day in question, my teacher asked my class to take part in coloring in a poster advertizing the school’s upcoming Christmas Fair. I knew instantly that I wasn’t allowed to do this as a Witness, and that my parents would be unhappy if I were to participate in something that promoted what I understood to be a pagan celebration.

By belittling a Witness child's beliefs, you are only fueling Watchtower's persecution complex
By belittling a Witness child’s beliefs, you are only fueling Watchtower’s persecution complex

When I respectfully told my teacher that I couldn’t do it, she stood me infront of the entire class saying, “[John] doesn’t want to help the school!” As punishment, I was made to stand outside in the winter by myself, in a courtyard overlooked by my schoolmates.

When I came home and told my parents, they were infuriated. They drove to the school to take the matter up with the teacher. I can’t remember whether an apology was given, but I certainly remember this story being proudly told countless times thereafter as an example of me standing up for my beliefs in the face of persecution.

My point in relating this experience is that the harsh punishment by my teacher only fed into my developing persecution complex, and strengthened my identity as a Jehovah’s Witness. Any kind of arbitrary punishment or belittling behavior by non-Witnesses, whether school teachers or co-workers in later life, only feeds into a Witness’ persecution complex and strengthens Watchtower’s influence by vindicating the organization’s suggestions that “worldly” people are cruel and intolerant.

So I applaud the fact that the teacher in this case received corrective discipline for a direct infringement of this boy’s free speech and freedom of religion, but I am relieved that she did not lose her job over such a relatively trivial matter. After all, in the end, nobody was hurt.

 

new-cedars-signature2

 

 

 

 

 

 

Further reading…

Picture credit: the main article picture is taken from the book Revelation – It’s Grand Climax At Hand, page 196.

104 thoughts on “Teacher suspended for forcing Jehovah’s Witness child to salute flag

  • November 9, 2013 at 5:24 am
    Permalink

    Well done article. Thank you for sharing your experience and feelings as a youngster raised as a witness. You explained very well how the cult brainwashes you into believing you are special and reinforces the teachings of persecution. Steve Hassan explains this quite well in his videos.

    Cult Expert, Steven Hassan Interview with CNN’s Erin Barnett …
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkVQJkJBkBo Cached
    Cult Authority, Steven Hassan, Explains Workings of Cults and Mind Control in the Boston Marathon Bombing. The Interviewer is Erin Barnett on CNN.

    BTW I live in the same state as you and your wife John and would love to meet you sometime. Namaste <3

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:21 am
    Permalink

    I would like to suggest that the WTS purposely chooses controversial issues like these, and then expects JW children to be “strong” enough in the face of persecution. Some people get pretty passionate about things like seemingly “harmless” customs, like saluting the flag and celebrating Christmas.

    Parents force their children into this cult, and then expect them to act like mini-cultists in the schoolyard. This is all part of the brain-molding and mind control. Good for you, standing up for yourself as a child! That took some real courage, and I’m sure you made Jehovah proud. Obviously, you did, since you were congratulated for a long time after. Now this little boy has a badge of courage to display proudly, and he can become even more deeply identified as one of Jehovah’s chosen people. Great job, Mrs. Daigle-McDonald! Your reaction to his religious stand has had the opposite affect you intended. I hope this event will trigger some research on your part. This little boy is a child of cult members.

    The discipline the teacher receives seems fair. I hope she will use the time off from work to do some research into not only JW beliefs and why this innocent child dared to defy her, but possibly stumble upon some information that will give her a hint at the constant stress this little one must be under every day. We need some teacher activists to develop some tools that can be used in schools, to help children learn to think for themselves. If a JW is going to send their child to public school in the US today, they should expect them to be educated. Teach them to think!

    It would be interesting to see if there are any teachers that would covertly reverse-witness to their students. At the age of 10, a child has a very active and able mind. This would be a perfect time to introduce some logic and critical thinking skills. Drawing parallels that might ring true for a JW child.

    Just a thought. I feel sorry for this poor kid, and hope the teacher will return to the classroom with a renewed spirit of the true nature of her job. This isn’t about the Pledge of Allegiance. This is about who is controlling this child. He is under the enforcement of a cruel and intolerant religious cult, that makes things up as they go along. The legalism and threats being forced onto this child, are permanently affecting his development.

    A teacher’s job is hard enough, and she will have much bigger challenges to face. I suspect that this child is probably compliant to school rules that don’t go against his religion and the laws he lives under. Discipline the bad kids, and do what you can to help the helpless ones!

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:36 am
    Permalink

    Saluting the flag is a matter decided some decades ago in court. It is NOT mandatory that a citizen salute the flag of the United States. The teacher’s dicipline wasn’t quite specific enough. She should have been required to research the history involved that established the rights of JW’s (and anyone else for that matter) to salute the flag or not.

    I have had numerous discussions with my wife who is a JW about this. The issue of saluting the flag in the United States is not a sign of obeisance or a form of ‘worship’ to the flag. Rather it is intended to be a rendering of a courtesy of recognition of the republic’s stand for “liberty and justice for all”. The teacher apparently didn’t understand the “liberty and justice for all” part.

    A personal story. Years ago as a seventh grader in junior high school I was agast to see at a school-wide assembly the singing of the national anthem was accompanied at the end by the raising of the right hand, palm up, and extended toward the flag.

    I refused to do this and was called to account by my teacher. I explained that I would not render a salute to my flag that was reminiscent of the old Hitler salute. We had an argument over it, but in the end the matter was dropped and there was no further attempt at making me “conform” to the school’s custom.

    Later in life I read that the palm up salute to the flag was common practice in the United States during the days prior to rise of Nazism and WWII. In retrospect, the principal of that junior high school was a teacher in that Junior High School when it was built in the 1920’s and had remained there throughout his teaching years. I was there in 1958 so that school tradition went back forty years and apparently the principal hadn’t learned anything after becoming a teacher in the 1920’s.

    Acadianlion

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:39 am
    Permalink

    The teacher was personally offended, it appears, since she reached out and moved the child’s hand. That alone could get her in trouble, in America at least. It reminds me of a similar incident when I was a child. Personal patriotism is fine but students come in with a variety of backgrounds and their parents’ belief systems.

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:42 am
    Permalink

    Well done. Good article. It makes me proud to see someone, especially young ones stand up for what they believe in. @faithful your suggestion seems to say ” take him out of the evil brainwasing cult by brainwashing him with school indoctrination”. I dont understand this.

  • November 9, 2013 at 7:41 am
    Permalink

    Funny that they’ll get angry when someone wants to strong-arm a child into pledging allegiance or loyalty to a country, but they’re okay with strong-arming and bullying children into getting baptized into their religion. They’re both wrong if you ask me. My loyalty is to whom I chose to be loyal, and no one will force me to pledge my allegiance to a person, government, or religion of any sort. Do what you want but respect those who do something different, because maybe they have their reasons.

  • November 9, 2013 at 7:57 am
    Permalink

    On these issues Jehovah’s Witnesses do not demand any special consideration beyond being allowed to respectfully decline participation. The SCOTUS recognized that that allowing such a choice, rather than demand forced participation actually strenghtens the meaning of the ceremony.

    Now, lets reverse this. What if a child of Jehovah’s Witnesses were to get baptized as you did John at 11 or myself at 16, then later in life decide to no longer participate in our faith? Is such allowed within the faith? Absolutely not! Such a decision is not respected, but instead met with reprisal wherein strict shunning will be enforced.

    The sad fact is the Witness faith tends to operate from a position of intolerance of any outside authority on the life of the members. This includes things like flag salute or singing national athems wherein loyalty and respect is shown to an outside authority.

    Thanks for the article John!

    Cheers,
    -Randy

  • November 9, 2013 at 8:41 am
    Permalink

    My concern is for the mental anguish this poor child is being subjected to. He has to suffer the embarrassment already for not saluting g and then to have the teacher draw even more attention is so sad. Secondly, he will suffer mental torment from thinking he’s gonna die at Armaggedon because he saluted the glad and made Jehovah sad. Ugh. What a horrible life ahead if this innocent child. My heart bleeds for him.

  • November 9, 2013 at 8:57 am
    Permalink

    Jehovah’s Witnesses would love to imagine they are reviled and outcast. A bored shrug is a better reaction than outrage and force. My mother would always ring me up on her birthday to remind me that old friends and my sister had acknowledged her birthday with cards and presents. I would always remind her that she, as a JW did not recognise birthdays. She would then try and tell me, with pride, that it was pagan; and she knew about this, unlike those not ‘In The Truth’. I would merely shrug and say that for many people, not just JWs, birthdays are no big deal; ditto Xmas. That was my small attempt to take the wind out of her self righteous and otherworldly sails. Let JWs alone to not salute flags, not sing Christmas Carols and Happy Birthday. Reserve condemnation and action for the serious stuff like the murderous blood nonsense and the cruelty of shunning.

  • November 9, 2013 at 10:27 am
    Permalink

    Those are consequences of living with “sheep’s in wolves’ clothing”. The child is a robot… You can read:

    “it is not enough simply to teach your children to avoid bad associates. Help them to find good ones. One father says: “We would always try to substitute. So when the school wanted our son on the football team, my wife and I sat down with him and discussed why that wouldn’t be a good idea—because of the new companions that would be involved. But then we suggested getting some of the other children in the congregation and taking all of them to the park to play ball. And that worked out fine.”
    18 Wise parents help their children to find good friends and then to enjoy wholesome recreation with them. For many parents, though, this matter of recreation presents challenges of its own” (fy chap. 8 pp. 96-97 pars. 17-18)!!

  • November 9, 2013 at 11:23 am
    Permalink

    This teacher who was suspended without pay and now has to receive diversity training should have known better! Working in the school system myself what she did was a no-no! She was trained on this at the beginning of the school year as ALL school personnel are! The Constitution allows for different religious views whether you agree with them or not. Freedom of speech is also guaranteed in our Constitution. However I agree that children should have free will in choosing whether or not to salute the flag, vote, or celebrate holidays without being forced into a decision by parents. Forcing children to worship is tantamount to mind control. It is one thing to teach your child your religious beliefs but to force them and then send them out in the world to stand up for these principals by themselves is abusive!

  • November 9, 2013 at 11:30 am
    Permalink

    There is no governmental system that has any true and legitimate reason to demand allegiance.
    So were I not brought up as JW, I would not have given allegiance to any entity.
    In my country, South Africa, we the male members of the WTS went off to military prison [this was in the 1970’s] – in later years of course the young guys were able to have the sentences [6 years by then] commuted to civil service.
    I have no issue with standing out against this illegitimate demand for allegiance. Of course each person [child] may react and be affected differently. However in most reasonable governmental systems the Constitutions allow freedom of worship and if the parents approach the school systems in a diplomatic manner the issues related to flag salutes / anthems etc can be avoided. Just dont approach the school all gung-ho and get people P-off.
    As to the sanction this teacher received – that is what that particular authority decided. After all why should she be allowed to impose her will on anyone – the govt systems suck.

    regards – Africaine [Christian Anarchist]

  • November 9, 2013 at 11:56 am
    Permalink

    Many assume that the child was forced by the parents or the GB to make a stand. I think this is in error. True he was given counsel even direction fron the bible but the choice was his. Other witness children when faced with similar choices have taken a different stand. The choice is theirs. No mind control no force no arm twisting, just free will. We cannot nor should not try to impune why this cjild made this decision. It was his own.

    • November 9, 2013 at 1:33 pm
      Permalink

      Free will? I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and still remember how I was drilled, at the Kingdom Hall, to believe that unless I followed the instructions of those TRUTH mongers in suits on the rostrum, the elders, then Jehovah would murder me at Armageddon, due then, for certain (it was Jehovah issued, Bible based TRUTH) before the end of the 20th century. To write the drivel that you write on here, Milo, you sure are under the malign control of the bosses of that global property and publishing corporation, that obscene little cult, known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Thank you for demonstrating to any casual reader, Milo, the tragic state of mind that can occur if one falls victim to the Watchtower.

  • November 9, 2013 at 12:21 pm
    Permalink

    The great thing about America is her freedom she gives all including Witnesses who refuse to salute. As mentioned here the best way to fight it is with sympathy not opposition.

  • November 9, 2013 at 2:07 pm
    Permalink

    I faced this very issue in the early 1950s when I was in elementary school. In grades 5 and 6 I had a teacher (Mrs. Maltzberger) who at first was shocked that I refused to salute the flag. She asked me to bring a note from my mother to explain in more detail. I did. Some of my fellow students began a campaign to ridicule me about not saluting the flag but Mrs. M put a quick stop to that. Eventually my fellow students elected me a classroom president. But one of the duties of the “president” was to lead the class in the flag salute. When I told them that I would no longer be their president because of that duty, Mrs. M suggested that the class vice-president could do it or I could appoint/award other students in the class to do it if they wanted. Mrs. M was one of my favorite teachers because she could always find a way to help our class find solutions to avoid usual conflicts. Our class was mixed race before most schools were integrated in the USA, and yet Mrs. M found easy ways to have our class that had whites, blacks, Hispanics, and even a Japanese kid (just years after WW2) all get along. So having a “know-it-all” JW kid in her class just added to making her class more interesting and diverse. Unfortunately, more and more classrooms are beginning to revert to discriminatory practices – especially in the USA South as conservative politicians and wacked out TV evangelists rail against non-Christians, minorities, the poor, LGBT persons, and non-traditionalists in any category. Recently here in Oregon a middle school student was attacked by fellow classmates when he declared himself an atheist. According to eye witnesses, the teachers turned their backs and went inside the building when they saw the fight begin – and then later claimed they hadn’t witnessed the young boy was being beaten. Freedom of religion and conscience are still just concepts in the USA, not realities.

  • November 9, 2013 at 2:37 pm
    Permalink

    @juan was that your decision?

    • November 9, 2013 at 2:58 pm
      Permalink

      Which decision are you referring to? Even at 10-11 years old I was drinking the kool-aid, so yes – I totally understood and accepted the WT’s position on flag salute and singing the National Anthem. To be honest, even to this day I ignore saluting the flag or putting my hand over my heart – I just don’t feel the need to do that and still don’t care what people think. But that’s because I see the whole process as being a hypocritical display of false patriotism. On the other hand, there are times (like after 9/11) when I break into tears when the flag goes up or drops to half-mast. Mrs. Maltzberger was a unique teacher in that regard – tough as nails as far as quality of work and getting homework turned in on time, but very flexible when it came to children’s needs and support. If there is a heaven, Mrs. M is living in a mansion…

  • November 9, 2013 at 2:41 pm
    Permalink

    Hi, very good article. I thought I would also say that there is more happening to the child than reinforcement of a persecution complex. The child is also humiliated and emotionally traumatised in front of his peers, so it is abusive. The JW child also experiences very real feelings of being ‘different’ from everyone else and knows that some of his peers will be laughing or sneered at him behind his back. All of this tends to harm the child emotionally and isolate them sociality, causing them to feel unable or unworthy of their peers friendship and that only within the organisation can true friendship be sustained. If the child eventually leaves the organisation, this psychological schema is so strongly entrenched in the mind that it can lead to permanent social maladjustment and the inability to relate normally to ‘worldings’ and form natural relationships once out in the world, especially if all previous friendships and sources of natural companionship and social ties are severed through disfellowshipping. The harmful early pattern is set through such humiliating child experiences, and is a factor in why some ex-JW’s commit suicide.

  • November 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm
    Permalink

    Milo: that is definitely not the point I was trying to make!

    I was suggesting that a teacher, who has a young JW under her charge for 6+ hours per day, can definitely make a positive difference in educating that child. By that, I mean, teaching that child to think for himself. Teach him to use reason, critical thinking skills, logic and discernment that will help him to make decisions. While the child is still trapped in the clutches of the WTS, there is not a lot a teacher could do to rescue him… She can, however, show him the way to find answers for himself. Teach him to use tools that are available to him, and allow him to draw his own conclusions.

    I happen to be a homeschooler myself, and have a passion for educating children to be free thinkers. I abhor the indoctrination of public schools in the US today, and will do everything I can to protect my own children from the government brainwashing for as long as I can.

    Thanks for clarifying this point. Question authority!

  • November 9, 2013 at 4:05 pm
    Permalink

    @juan thank you for your honest answer. The decision was yours it is still sonething you chose to do. This was my point. To all others, think for a monent on this. If a young person feels they are gay is that their decision? They realize they will be subject to some form of chastisement. Yet would you concludecthat they were brainwashed into their thinking? How isvit different for this young man who despite peer pressu re and the press sure from aperson of authority made their own decision? Would you presume to taje away their right to free will without knowing that person and his circumstance?

    • November 9, 2013 at 4:30 pm
      Permalink

      milo,
      Let me quote Cedars: “So I applaud the fact that the teacher in this case received corrective discipline for a direct infringement of this boy’s free speech and freedom of religion, but I am relieved that she did not lose her job over such a relatively trivial matter…” That is my point as well. Freedom of conscience, whether it is due to religious training or not, must not be infringed upon by persons of authority as long as no person or property is endangered. The teacher in Florida was enforcing her own religious and political beliefs on the JW child, not the policy of the school or the community. She was totally out of line and deserved punishment. Should she have been fired? Probably not for this one offense. But she, and any other teachers in the area that do not learn from this example should be fired if they choose to enforce their own illegal positions on their students.

  • November 9, 2013 at 4:51 pm
    Permalink

    @juan i agree completely. This is not a JW issue. This is an issue of choice. It does not matter what you believe nobody has the right to force you to do something against your free will.

  • November 9, 2013 at 4:54 pm
    Permalink

    @blogadict
    So basically what you’re saying is that its a form of psychological abuse to teach children to do anything different from anyone else. I thought that JW’s were the ones that thought everyone should think and act the same way? And I thought that that too was a form of psychological abuse? That JW kids are oppressed because they aren’t allowed to have their own opinions on things like entertainment, or education. But now I see that teaching children to be different is actually psychologically damaging to children as well.

  • November 9, 2013 at 5:15 pm
    Permalink

    @faithful i agree tge best thingvwe can teach our children is to reason for themselves. I am a free thinker, i also was homeschooled infact never went to public school. I have what some would say are radical viewpoints i.e.: the governments involvement on 9/11, the moon landing etc. But i also think that it is my obligation to teach my child the moral viewpoints that shaped my life. I want to at least give her a fair chance. But i do not mske her do anything. She is only five and just the other day the issue of her friends b’day party came up. I told her she must make her own decision it is not up to me, but she needs to do what she feels will make jehovah happy. Just as she would want to make me her father happy in her decisions.

  • November 9, 2013 at 5:22 pm
    Permalink

    @blog i find iy offensive, not ad a JW but as a human that you would ever imply yoi know why a person would commit suicide. That is not your nor anybodys call to make. You show a disrespect to yhose of us who have had to deal with this issue.

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:11 pm
    Permalink

    Great article Cedars! In the end I think it should be a matter of conscience as to whether one should salute the flag, however with such young children, it’s a tough call to make as these youngsters are not equipped to form such opinions by themselves.

    Personally as a kid I had an issue with saying the pledge of allegiance when I got to a certain age, esp. the under god part and that was before I even knew that “under god” wasn’t a part of the pledge until 1954. Pledging allegiance to the flag is fine if people do it for the correct reasons because they sincerely show respect for what’s it’s supposed to mean.

    Perhaps the pledge should not be recited until kids attain a certain and/ level of maturity and cognitive development, as well as a well balanced education in history, say the age of 15 or 16? Then they are better able to make a decision on their own as to whether to recite it or not. Or, perhaps the pledge should not be recited at all in school settings? Just some thoughts.

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:14 pm
    Permalink

    The teacher got a just penalty for her crime. No one has the right to force someone to do something that they don’t want to do.

    We all agree on that.

    Now, to tackle some of these other issues.

    Pot calling Kettle,

    It is wrong to expect children to abstain from any activity without first giving them some facts to go on. I believe that many witness children follow the WTBTS line without ever considering any other opinion. This applies to witness adults too.

    There is now a new theme in your and Milo’s comments. It’s all about free will for you, and there’s bundles of it in the WTBTS. It’s simply bursting with free thinking, considerate, well informed individuals who receive no sanction if their decisions (which are free) do not correspond with the GB.

    I can only say that this is not the experience of myself or many people who are posting here. We have found a complete lack of appetite to exercise this much discussed freedom, depending instead in a slavish devotion to the GB’s pronouncments.

    People are afraid to express their freedom in fear of sanction.

    Milo, you have doubts about the moon landings, do you? You believe that the government was involved in the attacks on September the 11th, 2001? Ok, it’s your choice.

    How would these examples of your free thinking affect your relationship in the congregation? Not in any way. They’re rather off the wall, but you would not be sanctioned. Try having some opinions on things that do affect their authority and you would receive a very different response.

    You and Pot calling Kettle have been emphasising this freedom, rather unsuccessfully, for a while now.

    Why don’t you both exercise your freedom and read some of Cedar’s posts on a whole variety of subjects and then give us your opinions? If you find any factual errors, Cedars will correct it.

    Peace be with you

    Excelsior!

  • November 9, 2013 at 6:48 pm
    Permalink

    @excelsior i can only assume from your past posts the issues you reference are mainly child abuse and disfellowshipping. I assure you i have done my research both outside and inside the wtbts viewpoints. I personally have concluded that i agree with the wtbts on these issues. You do not. I would not try to inflict my opinions on you nir should yoi on me. Any poats o have made have not veen to coerce or persuede anyone, simply my stance. But i have had a difference of thinking with the GB before. The issue i always was concerned with was, who really was the faithfull slave. I did not agree with the explination that all the anointed were the slave. Just didnt add up to me. But i waited on jehovah and did not make an issue out of it. After all he is the one who gives us the truth not the slave. The point is i can think independant to the GB and still be approved by god, we all can. But there are fundamental truths in the bible we cannot argue with. If we do we are arguing not with the GB but wit h jehovah.

    • November 13, 2013 at 5:16 pm
      Permalink

      To Milo,
      Since you agree with Watchtower Society viewpoint then do you agree that a person should be expelled (disfellowshiped) from the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses for not accepting that the “faithful slave” had been inspected by Jesus and then thereafter appointed by him over all of his belongings?

  • November 9, 2013 at 7:26 pm
    Permalink

    I find it intetesting what Richard Dawkins said about ones choice: There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else (parents in the case of children, God in the case of adults) has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point. […] Somebody else must be responsible for my well-being, and somebody else must be to blame if I am hurt. Is it a similar infantilism that really lies behind the ‘need’ for a God? Richard Dawkins

  • November 9, 2013 at 7:37 pm
    Permalink

    I also enjoyed his view of cild molestatio: The mob hysteria over pedophiles has reached epidemic proportions and driven parents to panic. Today’s Just Williams, today’s Huck Finns, today’s Swallows and Amazons are deprived of the freedom to roam that was one of the delights of childhood in earlier times (when the actual, as opposed to the perceived, risk of molestation was probably no less). Richard Dawkins

  • November 9, 2013 at 8:14 pm
    Permalink

    @Excelsior
    You assume that anyone who disagrees with you is uninformed and uneducated. You assume that people such as me and Milo have only come here to “shake up” the comments section. Truth is I have read every article I have commented on and read all of the comments. I have also read some articles that I have not commented on. Are you so sure that Cedars would change his articles if anything was found not to be factual? And what would constitute “factual”? Is it factual that the wtbts was a NGO member of the U.N. For 9 years? Yes. But that isn’t the entire story. Its not cut and dry. Is it a fact that the wtbts has a “two witness” rule with regard child molestation? Yes. But that isn’t the entire story. You can give someone facts and at the same time misrepresent said facts. And you act as if simply reading what Cedars has written will be all that is needed to convince us simple minded JW’s. After all, we’ve been kept in the dark, intellectually suppressed for so long that the scales will just fall from our eyes. Wouldn’t that be just as dangerous as accepting what the GB says about any given subject without double checking the facts?

    • November 9, 2013 at 8:42 pm
      Permalink

      You can ask questions of Cedars. You can disagree with him. He will not, so far as I am aware, declare that the God. for whom he is exclusive earthly agent, murder you at Armageddon for daring to question his authority. To draw an analogy between Cedars and the JW Gov. Bod. is as ridiculous as anything you might read in a Watchtower mag.

    • November 9, 2013 at 9:43 pm
      Permalink

      @milo,@pot,and @Nelken…
      a lot of evidence has been presented against the JW’s and i wanna say that this has little or no effect in most JW families i know.*they are told by the GB to view it as apostate trash* so whether its the UN scandal,the ‘whole’ blood or ‘blood fraction’ issue,the failed dates…e.t.c I think its logical not to expect a JW or a former JW to immediately conform to new ideas they formerly knew to be “apostate”.
      also branding the elders and the GB to be wrong on all counts is technically untrue.iam not pleading a JW cause but clearly stating that change is a gradual process and can only be accelerated by clear un-biased reasoning not entirely critical judgemental thinking. Cedars does well in this area. He presents a balanced approach to the topic under discussion such that a jw can even ‘consume’ it without much sneering and branding. Its true the GB pursues this false path of ever increasing light (read sept 15,2013 wtc par 14 )which of course is a time-buying tactic and an excuse for their edited “Truth” but they’ve got their laws which are good too.

      • November 10, 2013 at 5:52 am
        Permalink

        Like water on a stone, JW faith in their truckload of ever changing and cruel absurdities will, eventually evaporate. They need to be constantly reminded that they look forward to the day that God murders the greater part of humanity for the refusal to obey every diktat of a bunch of self appointed old men in New York state. The JWs can pretend that this is all Biblical, just and loving, but their noses need to be rubbed in the sheer filth of their faith till they can no longer bear the stench.

  • November 9, 2013 at 8:48 pm
    Permalink

    @pot well said. I have read the articles i post on as well, my conclusion? I agree with some of what is said, but very little. I certainly wont let the opinions of cedars and those that post to “inform” me of what i should believe. I am the worst case scenario for many here. A free thinking JW. I do reasearch into all subjects that i speak openly about. If i am not informed i reaserch it. I have looked into thr “scandals” of the WTBTS and have made my stance based upon the facts. Did i doubt certain things when looking into them? Oh yes. Some evidence seemed to go against the wtbts. But i applied the bibles counsel not to come to a conclusion until you know both sides of the story.

    • November 9, 2013 at 8:51 pm
      Permalink

      A free thinking JW? The only way to salvation is through the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Apostate! Armageddon slaughter for you before the end of last century!

  • November 9, 2013 at 8:56 pm
    Permalink

    Well, free thinking JW. Think about these JW TRUTHS and give us your free opinion:

    Pre 1945 – Jehovah does not care about blood transfusion.

    Post 1945 – Jehovah will murder you at Armageddon if you have a blood transfusion.

    21st century – Jehovah is cool with receiving blood fractions but will murder you at Armageddon if you donate blood, the only source of blood fractions.

    Old Truths, Past Truths, New Light Truths – they are all Jehovah issued Truths. His exclusive earthly agent has declared this. Believe the lot and act on them or Jehovah will zap you along with all the non Kingdom Hall attenders when he finally gets around to doing his Armageddon.

  • November 9, 2013 at 9:12 pm
    Permalink

    Will those that hadva transfusion before 1945 be held accountable? I dont know. Will those that had ablood transfusion after 1945 be held accountable? I dont know. Nor does the slave. Is there a bible command to obstain from blood? Yes. How far does that command go? Ad new advances in medicine come to light will we have to adjust again the stance on blood ? I dont know. Any person who has made a decosion on this is accountable to god not the GB. They may get disfellowshipped for it. But that does not ensure their destruction. We are not the judge only god.

  • November 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm
    Permalink

    @Rowland
    If you don’t believe in Armageddon or agree with the wtbts stance on blood then that is your own decision. I’m not in a position to judge anyone for their views. To assume that just because someone agrees with something you don’t must mean that they are somehow being kept in the dark is quite an assumption. I do agree with the wtbts on their stance on blood. From the research I have done it harmonizes with bible principals. There are also many medical professionals that are not JW’s that feel that non blood treatment is the best treatment you can get. I have researched the subject using wtbts publications, non affiliated outside sources, and the bible. I don’t know how much more thorough I could be.

    • November 9, 2013 at 9:32 pm
      Permalink

      But before any God makes a decision, a bunch of old geezers who claim they speak for God, will disfellowship anyone who defies their diktats. Disfellowshipping leads to shunning. Seek a God by all means, but to imagine that the only way to a God is, as the Gov. Bod. declares , through their global corporation, is as cruel as itis ridiculous.

  • November 9, 2013 at 9:42 pm
    Permalink

    @rowland the diktats are from the bible not men. When you realize that it is easy to follow them. After all gods commands are not burdensome.

  • November 9, 2013 at 9:46 pm
    Permalink

    Even Dawkins agrees with punishment: If this dysfunctional family was the best Sodom had to offer by way of morals, some might begin to feel a certain sympathy with God and his judicial brimstone. Richard Dawkins

  • November 9, 2013 at 11:41 pm
    Permalink

    Who is the faithful and discreet slave?
    It is a parable. Anyone who decides to serve the master, is the slave. Do not be fooled into serving a governing body of men who refuse to go to Christ for life. The great teacher told his servants to come to HIM for life, not to seek out a “slave” on earth to serve and obey. This is absurd.

  • November 10, 2013 at 2:31 am
    Permalink

    I agree as well, I respect other peoples choices/beliefs etc. So i expect them to respect mines, they are our human right. I too had a similar experience and while i was being put to shame o told my 8 year old self that they were doing this to me because i served the one true god and that jehovah would be happy i was obeying him and saw my suffering and one day they would all be destroyed but not me, i was being a good jw.

  • November 10, 2013 at 7:04 am
    Permalink

    @faithful the faithful slave fulfills a specific role. Despensing food at the proper time. The parable lets us know that jesus would chose his slave. A specific group of persons to give the rest of his domestics theor dpiritisl food. Yes i am a slave to christ, but i am not part of the faithful slave. I dont fit the requirements laid out by jesus.

  • November 10, 2013 at 8:08 am
    Permalink

    @milo, you said: “I assure you I have done my research both outside and inside the WTBTS viewpoints. I personally have concluded that I agree with the WTBTS on these issues. You do not. I would not try to inflict my opinions on you nor should you on me. Any posts I have made have not been to coerced or persuaded anyone, simply my stance.” (editted for spelling)

    To do your own research is the correct approach. If this results in agreement with the WTBTS then so be it. Just like it would be wrong to assume all Ex-JWs think alike and have all be influenced by some particular apostate source, it is also incorrect to assume all current Witnesses haven’t looked into issues such as disfellowshipping and child abuse from both WTBTS provided source as well as reliable third parties.

    For example, the Candace Conti, case is a matter of public court record. You can literally download and read the court transcripts wherein you’ll see lawyers for both the WTBTS and Candace make their case. Likewise, Janice Paul sued the WTBTS over disfellowshipping — and she lost! To this day (although it takes some digging) you can read both the court transcripts and The Watchtower (it might have been in Awake!, but my recall is The Watchtower) comments on the case.

    However, I do think your view on persuasion is incorrect. The entire point of any oral or written argument is to persuade. Indeed 2 Timothy 3:14 says, “You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them”

    Cheers,
    -Randy

  • November 10, 2013 at 8:33 am
    Permalink

    The JW adults will be using this incident proudly to show JW kids that they should stand up for what they are taught. Reality of the matter is… for that child… to not follow the order of the teacher was merely an act of defiance in the child’s mind. At that moment when the teacher told him to salute the flag, he simply wanted to be defiant towards an authority figure. a lot of JW’s might applaud him for what he did. But imagine now how the rest of the class would see him? Would he have friends in his class anymore? what about other students who used to talk to him? what about the students who liked the teacher? all of them are most likely going to be running away from this JW kid and wouldn’t want to be his friend. It would only lead to his isolation in the classroom, and probably social isolation too. The parents haven’t thought about how other kids are going to feel in interacting with their defiant son. That JW kid is going to experience isolation. Social isolation leads to depression, and will push this kid further into the organization, even leading him to get baptized into the org at a very early age. The younger a kid gets baptized… at least while they can think, the deeper the beliefs are ingrained into their minds, and that’s why the society is after young ones. Kids who get baptized at a younger age are less likely to leave the org because it’s all they’ve known their whole lives. Parents cant leave the org because then they risk isolation from their kids. The org has won yet another case of mind control of a young child. I feel sorry for him because now, he’s going to be thoroughly convinced that this is the truth (my thought… the truth that the borg wants your soul). He’s going to feel that it’s ok to sacrifice everything for the organization because “Jehovah” will take care of him and get others into trouble while he laughs away. In the end, its the teacher who will have the last laugh because he’s most likely going to sacrifice the rest of his life for the org. I am not defending the teacher, but the punishment doesn’t match the crime. Also, if some people believe that “this is America where freedom is of the utmost importance”, why not treat the immigrants the same way too? Give freedom and liberty for all, not just a 4th grader.

Comments are closed.