As a young boy growing up in the Witness faith, I was taught to think of my religion as an organization with a level playing field, where everyone enjoyed an equal standing before God. Whenever photos were published of the Governing Body, it was always pointed out how approachable and “grandfatherly” they appeared – as though you could walk up to any member and ask him anything!
It was the same with elders, Circuit Overseers and District Overseers. Sure, these men all had lofty titles, but when it all boiled down to it, they were supposed to be no different from ordinary publishers – just with slightly different privileges of service.
As I grew up and began to see different facets of the organization in closer detail, it gradually became obvious that true equality among the brothers was something that existed in theory rather than in practice. A typical example of this could be seen during the twice-yearly Circuit Overseer’s visit, with all the hype and furore surrounding the arrival of a single man and his wife. I could see brothers and sisters bending over backwards to impress this supposedly humble representative of the Society – putting on elaborate dinners for him, taking him on their most impressive calls and bible studies, laughing at his awful jokes, and generally acting all prim and proper whenever in his presence.
Even so, regardless of the fact that I saw little practical evidence of true equality among the brothers, I generally accepted the idea that all Witnesses are equal – and that there is no “hierarchy” in our faith. In fact, this wasn’t just an idea circulated among publishers – it was a core concept that was actively promoted in our publications. Other religions may operate a “hierarchical structure,” but not Jehovah’s cleansed people! We are different from false religion. Hierarchical religions, most notably the Catholic Church, are to be vilified and exposed for their “worldly” organizational politics.
To demonstrate, consider the following quotes from the Society’s publications over the decades, each of which denounce the concept of a hierarchical religious structure, or describe it in disapproving terms…
“In contrast with many religious groups in Christendom, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not decide for themselves the form of spiritual government under which they operate. These sincere Christians endeavor to stick to Jehovah’s standards. Overseers among them are not put into office by some congregational, hierarchical, or presbyterian form of church government.” (w01 1/15 p13)
“Sadly, over the centuries this elevated, selfless concept of ministers as self-sacrificing preachers and teachers was distorted. What began as the Christian ministry evolved into a formal, hierarchical institution. Orders and ranks were formed, and they were invested with prestige and power and often accumulated great wealth. This created divisions.” (g00 7/8 p27)
“There was the question of who should serve as elders and deacons in the congregations. To get away from the hierarchical structure prevalent in Christendom, it was concluded that these should be elected democratically by the vote of the members of each congregation.” (w95 5/15 p22)
“As time went by, the number of those claiming to be Christians rose to the millions and then to the hundreds of millions. They developed different kinds of church government, such as hierarchical, presbyterian, and congregational. However, neither the conduct nor the beliefs of these churches reflected the rulership of Jehovah. They were not theocracies!” (w94 1/15 p14)
“Especially since 1919, the enthroned King Jesus Christ has developed a fine condition amid his followers on earth. He has placed among them ‘princes’ (Hebrew, sarim) who do indeed furnish just and loving oversight. In contrast with the oppressive and self-serving rulers so general throughout the world, the King in God’s organization has raised up responsible men who are not revered as hierarchical ‘princes of the church,’ or the like.” (w84 5/15 p16)
“This fading of Christian watchfulness prompted apostate Christians to organize themselves into a well-structured church whose eyes were no longer fixed on the coming parousia, or presence, of Christ but, rather, on dominating its members and, if possible, the world. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: ‘The [apparent] delay of the Parousia resulted in a weakening of the imminent expectation in the early church. In this process of ‘de-eschatologizing,’ [weakening of the teaching on the ‘Last Things’] the institutional church increasingly replaced the expected Kingdom of God. The formation of the Catholic Church as a hierarchical institution is directly connected with the declining of the imminent expectation.” (w84 12/1 p6)
“In the latter part of the 19th century, the Bible Students had a democratic way of governing their congregations; they wanted to get away from an autocratic hierarchical system.” (w81 12/1 p25)
“One’s qualifying as an ‘elder’ or ‘overseer’ was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: ‘The ordained ministry is not a cursus honorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible.'” (g76 9/8 p27)
“The above-mentioned Thascius Caecilius Cyprian was the bishop of the church in Carthage, Africa. He was born about 200 C.E. and died in 258 C.E. He was a clergyman, called here ‘the father of the hierarchical system,’ one of the body of clergy that existed not much more than a century after the death of Christ’s apostles and their close associates. From that time on, throughout the ‘Dark Ages,’ into the time of the Reformation and the beginning of the Protestant Churches, and down to the present, this clergy-laity distinction has existed in Christendom.” (w75 4/1 p202)
“What wonder, then, that intelligent persons of today who are informed on the kind of rule that prevailed during the time of the popish ‘theocracy’ cannot stomach the thought of God’s rule being about to come, if God’s rule means the restoration of such a hierarchical rule!” (w68 10/15 p618)
“Who, then, is doing the discipling work today? There can be no doubt of this. It is the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. The revival of the work of making disciples is to be found in that organization in these last days. They have freed themselves from the constricting creeds and contaminating false doctrines of the nominal churches. They have freed themselves from the hierarchical, congregational and all other forms of church rule that are unscriptural and they are governed by theocratic rule.” (w66 4/1 p205)
“Interesting is the fact that, though forced to meet underground, those primitive Christians by no means kept their light hidden there. As Christ had commanded, they lifted it high on ‘lampstands’ by a work of public testimony. Though this drew the infuriated malice of many, it introduced untold hope to others who proceeded to associate with the Christian community. Charles Maitland, in The Church in the Catacombs, singles out this proselytizing nature of the Christians as the greatest aggravating factor of their persecution, because of which other charges were trumped up by the authorities. Their harmlessness can be seen in that for the mere reason of secretly celebrating the Lord’s Supper they suffered an official ban. From what can be told by the ancient inscriptions those Christians scorned the hierarchical structure which papal Rome copied from pagan Rome.” (w51 8/15 p486)
“With such a breadth of meaning and variety of application of the Hebrew word sar we can appreciate how the heavenly King reigning in righteousness could have his visible servants on the earth during this perilous time and how these would occupy the position corresponding with what Isaiah 32:1 speaks of as princes (sarím). They would not hold such princely office inside the political systems of this world, because, although they are in the world, they are no part of the world. Neither would they have any such combined political, hierarchical offices such as the higher clergy of the Roman Catholic religious system hold, so that they are called ‘princes of the church.'” (w51 12/1 p721)
As can be clearly seen from the above quotes, the hierarchical structure long-ago adopted by the Catholic Church has been routinely denounced by the Society as unscriptural, autocratic, divisive and prone to encouraging corruption.
But what is a hierarchy? One definition describes it as: “an organizational structure where every entity in the organization, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. This arrangement is a form of a hierarchy.” This unmistakably describes the Catholic Church, with the Pope at the top – answerable to no one. Certainly in all my years growing up in the organization I never thought of it as a fair way of describing the organizational structure of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After all, we are God’s true organization, and therefore unique from all other religions! We have Christ as our leader, and we receive instruction from God’s holy spirit through the Faithful Slave and its representative Governing Body!
Reality sinks in
Then in 2011 I woke up and was finally able to see the organization for what it truly is – just one of many hierarchical Christian denominations claiming to have the sole backing of God. Once I learned to reason for myself, I could plainly see that there was absolutely no relationship between the Faithful and Discreet Slave class (those claiming to be anointed) and the Governing Body, who claimed to humbly serve as their representatives. In reality, it was the small number of men on the Governing Body who were pulling all the strings, without conferring with anyone else. The Faithful Slave teaching was just their “cover story.”
Then, in October last year (2012), things took an unexpected twist. The Governing Body ditched the idea that all anointed ones make up the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and declared that only they could be so identified. In making this change, many would argue that they were only acknowledging what was already widely recognized – that the Governing Body are the only ones dispensing “spiritual food,” and have been for some time. Ordinary anointed ones have never really had any say in what is published in the literature.
Though somewhat predictable, for myself and many like-minded individuals this change was profound. The Society had, without great fanfare, neatly removed the last distinction between themselves and other hierarchical religions such as the Catholic Church. Previously, they had hidden behind the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine as an excuse to wield power. Now it was surplus to requirements. They declared themselves to be God’s sole channel, giving themselves Pope-like authority in the process.
The changes start to take effect
And it wasn’t long before this authority started to be drilled home unmistakably in our literature. Take a look at this recent illustration from the April 13th Watchtower on page 29…
It doesn’t take a genius to see what is being depicted in this illustration. This is a clear and unambiguous example of a hierarchy – right down to the numbering of the various groups or positions. It is a list of the various operational elements of the Watch Tower Society in a descending order of importance. When you look closely, you notice that even the chairs are more comfortable the higher up the ladder you happen to be! Governing Body members get plush leather executive chairs, while branch office members must make do with plain office swivel chairs. If you are an elder, you can consider yourself lucky to get a school canteen chair! Evidently the more privileged you are in God’s organization, the more seat padding you require.
But there are other things that are noticeable about this illustration on close inspection. You notice that the current Governing Body members have vainly had their likenesses depicted in the illustration so that, when you look closely enough, they are individually recognizable.
Perhaps of most striking significance is the one notable absentee from the illustration – Jesus Christ. True, the Society would likely argue that this is a picture depicting the earthly part of God’s organization, and Christ is in the heavenly part. Even so, this hasn’t stopped the Society from depicting Jehovah on his heavenly chariot in the same illustration. Even some of the angels are present. So why no Jesus? Especially if he is supposed to be “head of the congregation?” (Eph. 5:23)
The answer is simple. Christ plays no role whatsoever in this organization and never actually has. His absence from this illustration may well be an oversight, but it is a telling one. The Governing Body is well and truly in charge, and they want us to know it. They take their orders from nobody but themselves. In this way, they are really no different from the Pope. In fact, take a look at this diagram I have prepared, which I believe demonstrates quite clearly that the hierarchical structures of the Catholic Church and Watch Tower Society are now eerily similar.
If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the above diagram may seem shocking, but it accurately reflects the way things truly are in the organization. It also shows how organizationally similar the Watch Tower Society is to the Catholic Church – the very religion it has spent decades criticizing.
Furthermore, you may be shocked to learn that, in at least one court case, Watchtower lawyers have openly admitted that the religion IS a hierarchy just like the Catholic Church. In a recent lawsuit surrounding an ugly power struggle in the Menlo Park congregation, California, a Watchtower attorney by the name of Calvin Rouse told a judge: “We are a hierarchical religion just like the Catholic Church.” A clipping of this shocking statement from the official court manuscript may be viewed below. If you would like to read more about the case in question and download the manuscript, you can do so by clicking here.
And so, even if the Society can’t admit to being a hierarchy in writing (mostly due to the stigma it has attached to that word over the decades), it is quite open about its hierarchical nature in illustrations and when pressed on the matter in a court of law.
Does it matter?
Perhaps, having considered the above information, you are saying to yourself: “But things have always been like this. Why is it such a big deal?” Well, the fact that the Watch Tower Society is a hierarchy is significant for two reasons. Firstly, because a hierarchical structure goes against scripture, and secondly, because they criticize other religious organizations for using the exact same system.
Consider Christ’s words at Matthew 23:6-12
“They [the Pharisees] like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (New World Translation)
By embracing a system where certain brothers in responsible positions are exalted above others, the Society has organized itself in direct contradiction of Christ’s words above. As seen in the Watchtower illustration, the Governing Body has now occupied the most exalted position – just a nudge away from heaven! Everyone else is beneath them. Not only that, everyone must humble themselves before the Governing Body by obeying everything they say. Those who don’t obey them or recognise their leadership are to be disfellowshipped as “apostates” and shunned by their Witness relatives.
Utter Hypocrisy
It is also worth remembering the countless instances over many decades where the Society has denounced the Catholic Church for operating as a hierarchy. Now the “Faithful Slave” doctrine has been re-written, and what do we see? The Watch Tower Society now has an almost identical organizational structure to the religion it has spent decades criticizing – even claiming to be fulfilling prophecy in the process (in the Revelation Climax book). Yes, our organization really is no different from any other Christian denomination, and the hypocrisy of it all is breathtaking.
The whole thing reminds me of the much-loved parable “Animal Farm” by George Orwell, which I was taught in school. Intended as a cautionary warning against communism, Orwell’s story describes an uprising in which a group of animals seize control of their own farm by ousting their abusive farmer overlord. However, once the animals gain control, gradually the “top” animals who are in charge (the pigs) become corrupt. They begin with a commandment that reads “all animals are equal,” but gradually, over a period of time, this is changed to read “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” By the end of the story, the pigs become just as abusive as the farmer they ousted.
The overall message of Orwell’s short story is that “power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you look at the Governing Body and the way they are gradually maneuvering doctrine to further exalt their position in the organization, it is not difficult to draw parallels with the pigs in Animal Farm. If you haven’t yet read the story, you can download it as a PDF on this link.
A reason to stop and ponder
In conclusion, I believe that thinking Witnesses all over the world need to pause and meditate on page 29 of the April 15th 2013 Watchtower. They need to look long and hard at that illustration and ask themselves the following difficult questions:
- Is this really what I dedicated my life to serve when I got baptized?
- Are Jehovah’s Witnesses really any different from any other religion if they have such a clearly defined hierarchy, which is almost identical to the Catholic Church?
- How can the Governing Body justify performing such a huge u-turn by awarding itself Pope-like status?
- Why observe their command to not investigate objective information about the organization when it is changing before my very eyes into something I can no longer respect or admire?
Alan …you summed it up perfectly to this “Clown” who thinks that the society is the true faith. First of all if he really thought that…. he would not be on these websites (as the holy boys (GB) say don’t venture outside of our sandbox or you will be counselled, or lose priveeges. (since when is carrying a microphone a privelege?
I will one day let this all rest but right now I am very heated to know that they took 30 yrs of my life, I really would like to call them up in the legal dept 1-845-306-1000, and ask if it is THEM I sue for taking half my brain!..also are these “lawyers” crazy to be giving their services free when they could be out earning a decent living and living in more that a 1 room dorm!
@anonymous
I agree, loving each other, helping others follow the Christ, those are the most important things.
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about being a teacher or becoming teachers.
Nevertheless, if you ‘try not think about these issues, and to be content with being of the lesser brothers’, then what on earth are you doing here? Your words betray you.
I, for one, can’t stand by whilst Pharisees and oppressive wolves inside the congregation destroy innocent lives.
Point One: You are right, use of the anglicised name of the Tetragrammaton does distinguish the religion, but that’s where it ends.
Point Two: For many many years the WTBTS spoke of the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church for its involvement with the UN. Did you not know of the scandal that broke about the NGO status of the WTBTS for nearly ten years, Anonymous? It’s still is using the UN for its own purposes. I can supply documents if you wish.
Point Three: Like all other religions, the WTBTS wages war in its own way, employing battle tactics such as “Theocratic War Strategy,” well-known particularly among more experienced Witnesses. Many have been the innocent victims of this form of warfare.
Point Four: It may be true that individual Witnesses try to love one another. The WTBTS, however, sets up systems involving judicial committees that are not Biblical to interrogate, judge, and cull out weaker members – is this loving? Shunning policies, likewise, have split many a family – is THIS a loving practise?
Point Five: All religions preach their version of ‘the Kingdom.’ When was the Kingdom established? 1914? Actually, using the Bible’s internal calendar, used by the WTBTS regarding the coronation of Christ comes to 1878 AD, not 1914. This is non-negotiable or the WTBTS cannot claim they are using the Bible to work this date out.
2520 x 360 (7 Times, Bible’s ‘lunar’ years) = 1878 AD
2520 x 365.25 (7 Times, modern solar years = 1914 AD
Point 6: Many accuse the WTBTS as setting up a form of idol worship, placing the Governing Body on the pedestal as Christ’s representatives on Earth (imperfect men, as you call them). Having removed all other spirit-anointed ones from among the ranks of Faithful and Discreet Slave, they have promoted themselves to the most powerful men on Earth. It is even claimed that they have interjected themselves into the chain of salvation. As to “one fold” the Internet has many things to teach ones like yourself, Anonymous.
Finally, one can only use the “I’m just imperfect” defence if all of this was done without intention. The documented evidence shows otherwise.
Anything else, Anonymous?
Frank
Hi Frank,
I like your point about “Theocratic War Strategy” this would be where we can act like RAHAB or JACOB and lie our way out of trouble? Or refuse to give information to “Those who don’t deserve it” You can detect behind this type of weasel word stuff how they can have secret lists of those they consider sexual “predators” and a refusal to co-operate with the “Superior authorities” by informing the police etc about abusers. The RC church did exactly the same to try to avoid any shame coming on them, hence they hid abusive priests. He catches the wise in their own cunning.
I would say organizational instead of a hierarchy,
organization is crucial for practically everything, there is a head of household that normally has the last word, the final decision, otherwise nothing would get done.
I will admit that some brothers and sisters go overboard adulating elders and other brothers with some responsibility in the organization, that is just being human, some people do that others don’t, i prefer to see the brother if at all after all the hoopla.
It is also true that lately there has been a trend in self congratulations, look at us we are so good, living in a spiritual paradise and such.
With the new understanding now
GOD HAS NOT CLEANSED THE ORG
that means that the slaves are mixed, the good is in with the bad.
Hi Peter. Personally I don’t have a problem with the need for hierarchy. It is how the hierarchy is perceived. If a religious organisation’s ethics are no better than those of “Satan’s World” (unbiblical judicial system, shunning etc) then that religious organisation boasting is hollow. Unfortunately, they have become “masters of our faith.”
Recently, one JW at a recent convention told of a high-ranking official’s (Australian branch) welcome to the stage as being like that of a rock star. Is this what it’s come to?
The self-congratulatory accent with the WTBTS is not that recent. I think we are just more sensitive to their need to raise themselves up amid the revelations being discovered on the Internet. No one in “Satan’s World” will do it, so they do it themselves. Recently convention speakers spoke of how humble the GB were and that they most wouldn’t even know their name. Where would this information have come from when it is all vetted by the GB?
What’s the saying: “self-praise is no recommendation.”?
Makes you think, doesn’t it.
Frank
Yes, Tamethyst
As a JW I was brought up to believe that all lying was wrong. Now I find out that only lying to members of the organisation is ALWAYS wrong! The Internet has brought home to genuine searchers of truth that TWS can ‘cover a multiple of sins.
I don’t have a problems with an old-world prostitute telling lies. The problem arises later when the New Testament proclaims this woman a “righteous” person, making her an example to follow for a modern, more ethical generation. The fact is, the Bible’s morality is fluid.
Frank
Frank,
The internet has been amazing and I think a saviour for many a tormented soul worrying that they have done something “unforgiveable” in leaving the “Truth-with a little bit of lies”. I have an aunt n uncle who left in the 80’s who still are hardly over it and I can only think it’s coz they never had the resource that the internet has given us these days to look for like minded ones and to read their experiences. The stories and experiences I’ve been able to share and read have helped me come to terms with leaving a faith that i believed in since pre 1975. So thank “God” for the internet and all the brave brothers and sisters who went about setting up such sites as this to help soothe the pain. What the GB don’t want the flock to know is that The Truth is out there.
Tamethyst
It is strange that anonymous believes that the WTS does not worship the ‘beast’. Because if the WTS as got prophecies and dates wrong. Then how can any member or ex member believe what else they say? Like their teachings, especially, on the ‘beast’?
It is very easy to conclude that if all else is wrong so are their teachings!
@ Ant Lloyd provides an interesting point by say “It’s almost as if the organization is trying to put itself in the same level as God.”.
As we need to remember that Revelation shows the beast declaring itself as a ‘god’ in opposition to the true God.
And, it is possible to fit the passages in Revelation about the beast
with regard to the WTS; With as much logic or lack of, as their teachings make.
With a special note how Babylon the Great is described at Rev 17:5.
Could also be considered, the GB as sexually committed immorality with the kings of the earth by denouncing them by ‘day’ but by ‘night’ sleeping with them as NGO’s. The beast could be the their international organisation as it too lived, then ‘died’ when Rutherford was imprisoned, then reappeared again in 1918 – Rev 17:8. And how much blood of loyals ones to Jesus can be found in the WTS by which she got drunk by? Who followed this possible Babylon the Great, every word. Believing they were serving Christ. Dying in concentration camps, refusing blood and being killed for preaching the prostitutes message to other lands as missionaries! LOL!
Frank i agree,
My mother who is 93 was a witness before i was born. She and the witnesses i grew up with believe that a judgment is coming, and it will start with the house of God.
They believe that judgement has not happened yet, this despite the honeymoon that has been declared after the inspection in 1919, which was recently corrected,..no anointed i know feel that they have been approved by Jehovah, they know they have been selected , yes but approved?,..that continues until they die.
This discrepancy was not really evident or so evident until now, to think that we believe that 3 men imprisoned equals Ezequiel’s valley of bones seems now ridiculous.
We have to make sure we apply the same rules evenly, if we tell people to search the bible for a teaching the hold, hold it up to the biblical light, the same apples to us as Witnesses Of Jah.
But it looks like they have realized this, and the honey moon is over. the evil slave is in with the good slave, and the wise virgins,…well….that has not happened either.
Babilon the great has Not fallen and we have NOT been liberated from it.
that is basically what it is.
The soc has always been interested in dates, dates for this, the beginning of that, the end of this, it is countless.
That impulse to set dates has got to stop, i personally don’t believe in any date that is not in the bible or can be linked to an event in the bible, other then that, dates are basically unimportant and we are thought not to go beyond what is written in the word.
Hi Peter. It is now an established fact, by the WTBTS’s own chronological workings that 1914 AD is a mythical date for what they claim.
What has surprised me, is that so much has been written about 587 BCE as being the date when Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem. I have never felt this to be conclusive – even if the majority believe this to be so. It’s one of those, “they say…but we say…” arguments, and is capable of closing down discussion.
Simply taking the uncomplicated equation from anywhere in any WT publication and thinking about the ACTUAL stretch of time from THEIR date of 607 BCE reveals that the claim of it ending in 1914 AD is just false! Thus their claims are perpetually irreconcilable, period! This is absolute and cannot be refuted IF the claim is made that the Bible interprets its own prophecies internally. That’s it!
No 1914, no authority, unless a new back story can be invented to explain the same thing after 1878 AD.
Frank
►It seems that whenever men the society has attempted to date something, Jehovah always makes a fool of them.
The bible counsels us continually not to set dates, and not to go beyond what is written.
I still believe that Jehovah is using Jehovah’s witnesses, God has used them to shine light on the false teachings of the churches, The preaching work that Jehovah’s witnesses have accomplished all around the world has served to open the eyes of many to the biblical truths.
I am surely not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Anonymous
You are merely repeating what the Watchtower tells you. Here are some FACTS:
Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT the only religion to use the name Jehovah. It was used in the American Standard Version (entire Hebrew Scriptures) long before the NW translation. The Name is also used in many Hymns and sermons in various churches. (“Save US, Oh Thou Great Jehovah” – is a beloved hymn of the Welsh nonconformists, sung on many a sunday). It is also used (as Yahweh) through-out the Hebrew scriptures in the Catholic New Jerusalem Bible. And in many other translations in languages other than English.
Under Rutherford’s direction, however, Jehovah’s Witnesses became universally detested as a “religion of hate”. I would venture that the Watchtower Society has therefore done more to stir up opposition to and dislike for the name Jehovah than anything else.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not as politically neutral as they make out. Like many other aspects of their religion, it’s a facade they like to promote.
According to the Yearbook about events in Nazi Germany – the majority (two thirds) of witnesses compromised. The Society likes to focus great attention of the few who did not. The others are never mentioned, except (again), the few who fought for the Nazis, survived, and later re-associated themselves.
In fact, according to a report I got from a Circuit Overseer, who had just met with members of the Governing Body, their (the GB’s) feeling was that 50% of the witnesses would fall away or compromise if the situation arose. (This was circa 2005. Morale has deteriorated considerably since then)
A huge amount of “preaching” about the Kingdom has been done by other church groups. You just don’t know about it. And the Watchtower like you to stay in that state of ignorance.
Fair enough – we don’t expect perfection from imperfect people. HOWEVER – the scriptures clearly say that anyone who says “I HAVE NO SIN” – is a liar, and the truth is not in that one. (1 John 1:8). So – is the WT Society sinless? If not – why don’t they confess, and repent? Or – are they not under the same rules as the rest of the sheep?
I believe I speak for most of us here when I say that the problem is that the human leaders of the WT Society REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS, and they keep on repeating them. It betrays lack of love – for God, Jesus, the sheep, and all other truth-seekers.
Let’s face it – if there was an individual in the Organization who dabbled in spiritism, kept on speculating about dates, kept on making predictions, kept on misinterpreting the scriptures – he would have been disfellowshipped long ago. But this is just some of the things the leaders of the Watchtower society have been doing these 120 plus years.
The real question is: how much longer can people like you go on blindly supporting these men – in defiance of what the Bible says?
Hi Frank I totally agree with you when you said the wachtower society refused to ACKNOWLEGE THEIR WROGDOINGS. This is so true! These men feel so powerful they think they can manipulate the entire humanity set of mind by their so called “preaching work.” Think God only a few about 7 millions fell for their message. If they really have Jehovah’s back up their miinistry would have been more fruitful. Despite their billions of hours of preaching every year the result is just a slap in their face proving that Jehovah is not on their side. I feel for the pioneers sisters and brothers especially for those who doing this service to find a soulmate . Good luck!! I can’t wait to see the end of WTS. I am sure it will come.
P.S with the “new light” / ‘New lie” the GB separate themselves from the rest of the anointed because the anointed group have outnumbered the great crowd. Since they can stop the anointed group from growing they simply separate themselves from them. What a genious Idea. I really believe that “new lie” came from Jah. LoL…… and the rank and file accept it with great JOY LOL…..
What you say is true, Peter. I believe as you do. But you have to factor in two things:
(1) The WTBTS to date has had quite a number of scandals revealed by the Internet. By God allowing the Internet is he testing his people’s loyalty to the organisation or is he exposing that this organisation in its present incarnation has its days numbered? Is the writing on the wall? (Biblical expression).
(2) The WTBTS has stated that the Catholic Church and its breakaway churches were used by Jehovah to distribute Bible and gather people into organisations. Will simply doing the preaching work worldwide in obedience to Matthew 24:14 be enough to assure its continuing existence in its present form? Will the WTBTS share the same fate as other organisations like political entities when they have served their purpose?
If we take the line that God uses his own organisation to ‘fool’ those within its ranks, in what way does he want ‘all to attain to salvation through repentance’?
Frank V
Many Jehovah’s witnesses are not dependent on the Watchtower and their faith has increased and the number baptized in those countries has increased.
Take the island of Cuba for example, very close to us, but the truth has been banned for years there, the watchtower was not allowed, did the witnesses vanish like the other religions did?
no they are well and strong.
Jehovah has used Jehovah’s Witnesses, through this group the Good news are being preached all around the World.
Jehovah’s witnesses have used the same bible people have to open up their eyes to the lies that satan has introduced in the religions of the world.
The WATCHTOWER as an org may vanish perhaps, but Jehovah’s Witnesses will not vanish.
Peter, I just hold my head in my hands when I see how brainwashed you are by Watchtower propaganda. You say things like: “Jehovah has used Jehovah’s Witnesses, through this group the Good news are being preached all around the World.”
The “good news” is most certainly NOT being preached “all around the world.” At least a third of the world’s inhabitants, mainly in communist and arab countries, have never even heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The organization wants you to believe that they are evenly spread across the planet, but there is a huge swathe of the Earth’s surface where Witnesses are virtually non-existent.
“I believe I speak for most of us here when I say that the problem is that the human leaders of the WT Society REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS, and they keep on repeating them. It betrays lack of love – for God, Jesus, the sheep, and all other truth-seekers.”
I couldn’t agree more, Frank.
The Brothers have always said that they are not inspired they make mistakes, and all of jw’s know and accept that.
Jw and the WATCHTOWER have acknowledged that they have made mistakes they list them they announce them in the magazine, it’s not a secret.
But to expect them to apologize every time they make a mistake, is not practical. they would have to publish a third magazine for that
The mistake was not on purpose, people learn and change, look at science, are we going to just dismiss science because what we believed once is not the case now?
Peter: “Jw and the WATCHTOWER have acknowledged that they have made mistakes they list them they announce them in the magazine, it’s not a secret.”
If you’re are referring to the pathetic small collection of cannily-written propaganda in the January Watchtower – read it again with objective ‘glasses.’ How many times have they said this?
Being caught with one’s ‘pants down’ is not impressive. The ‘statement’ contains no apology and no genuine sense of regret. They KNOW that many sacrificed their homes and jobs for falsely-relayed information. Did they ever offer to refund these people? In commerce, if a company makes a false statement (or even misleading) they can be sued for large sums of money. It is only because the American First Amendment disallows government direct ‘interference’ with organised religion that, to date, the WTBTS has got away with this obsession to make these statements.
Peter: “But to expect them to apologize every time they make a mistake, is not practical. they would have to publish a third magazine for that
The mistake was not on purpose, people learn and change, look at science, are we going to just dismiss science because what we believed once is not the case now?”
It is interesting that you acknowledge that ‘a third magazine’ woudl be required to contain the WTBTS’s apologies. You have said it yourself. Show me ONE EXAMPLE of a genuine APOLOGY made by the WTBTS. Can you do that?
Just taking the chronological ‘mistakes’ (not one prophecy to date made by the WTBTS has EVER COME TRUE), the organisation has been lead by the nose by powerful, charismatic men to publish information that is significant only to their own expectations (Fred Franz for one). When ‘dissent’ (disagreement) has arisen, harsh punitive and vicious attempts have been made to quell this rebellion. Would Jesus have used such measures?
Peter you need to let go your feelings or attachment for the WTS to bible real thruths. Stop being blind by the watchtower propaganda. despite of what the wacthower said about the internet you must now realize that the internet is a real tool that help hundreds of people like you find the real truth by exposing watchtower false teachings. Now with 2014 right around the corner I would like to know what “new light ” or I should say “new lie” the watchtower will come up with to explain Jesus 100 years of invisible reign. Jesus accomplishments during that 100 years and how soon he will start to reign visibly for other people to see him in action. One thing I have to say under his invisible reign war, poverty, calamity, famine , disaster are stil affected people’s life. Now my question to you, would you continue to support WTS that lies constantly or will you stand for bible’s real thruths?
The truths that i have learned did not come from the evangelicals or the Catholics, i learned through Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Cant let go of a Good thing, to go WHERE?
TO DO what?
Stop going to the meetings, stop preaching, dissociate from my Bros?
“Peter January 19, 2013 at 9:43 am
The truths that i have learned did not come from the evangelicals or the Catholics, i learned through Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Cant let go of a Good thing, to go WHERE?
TO DO what?
Stop going to the meetings, stop preaching, dissociate from my Bros?”
Why are you here, Peter? You’re presence is noteworthy. As you know, there would be two elders on your door if anyone of your ‘brothers’ knew you were here.
My advice would be not do the things you fear. Merely step back and use the Internet to find the many documents available to confirm the obvious suspicions you have about the WTBTS. Take a deep breath or two and then make a decision based on ALL THE FACTS, not just what you read in the literature you’re provided.
Frank
When you were baptized, you had promised to serve Jehovah forever. You can not expect to live forever, if you stop serving Jehovah and Armageddon comes. do Jehovah’s will and you will live.
To love Jehovah is to keep His commandments. Notice Revelation 16:15, you must be an active Christian when Jesus comes.
Today we get help through Jehovah’s organization to be active, we have in the church groups that help us to preach, but we must get to where your group will meet. Maybe you can ask for help to get out?
You can preach by sending letters to relatives and friends, also to strangers. Yes there are many ways to preach.
But we must not forget the love, 1 Corinthians 13:1-7.
We see an increase in anointed, we must ask ourselves, when Jehovah can choose our brothers and sisters among us, it must mean that Jehovah’s Witnesses are still his people.
do not give up, remember that Satan wants you to give up. But we love Jehovah.
My awakening has happened very recently, I’m still finding a lot of things out. As Maria commented about 2014, what will be the “new lie”? Is Jesus bored now after having been sitting for 100 years on the throne doing nothing? Oh no, he is “king”. What does “kinging” in his case involve? And I also wonder about the anointed who are supposed to have been resurrected already, aren’t they bored too? Because, they aren’t kings, are they? Jesus’s ‘1000 year-rule’ has not started. So what in heaven are they doing up there? Seriously.
Anonymous, are you a Bethel mole?
I find it interesting how, when JW’s start to notice that all is not as it seems in the WTS that their opinions fluctuate between loyalty to the WTS, and loyalty to fact and truth. Yes, the WTS did highlight hypocrisy in other church organisations. However, if you do the research, it’s very clear that throughout its history to the present, the WTS continually makes the same mistakes – often to a far more damaging degree – as they rarely admit to their mistakes or fix the problems inherent in their organisation. The WTS is the most hypocritical of them all. If you’re after “truth”, then research is your best ally.
If you do some research into the name “Jehovah” for example, you’ll quickly discover that it is not, and has never been, the name of God. It is a mistransliteration of the tetragrammaton, a mistake that has unfortunately stuck for centuries. Any organisation that gets God’s name completely wrong and uses it for their title cannot possibly be backed by God. Pretty embarrasing really.
Also, I don’t get all this stuff about a “good slave” and an “evil slave”. Seriously, I’ve come across loads of forums with JW’s and ex-JW’s dedicated to discussing this subject. All Charles Taze Russell did was take a vague parable out of context, and say he was the “faithful slave”. It would be like saying that someone was literally the “good samaritan” in Jesus’ most famous parable, which of course is impossible. There is simply no such thing as a “good slave and an “evil slave”, it’s like JW’s are going around and around in a circle. It’s tragic that the circular logic of the WTS is so good at confusing people.
On the subject of hierarchies, I’m not sure I agree that hierarchies are completely unbiblical. In the epistles (and in secondary 1st century sources), deacons, elders, bishops and overseers are all mentioned in the Bible. Although the early church may not have been a complete hierarchy, I’d say the building blocks for a hierarchy was being developed then, which came fully into fruition by the end of the second century. The church didn’t suddenly become a hierarchy, and it is clear to see how it was developed from the earliest days of Christianity. There seems to be a great assumption that there was a time when everything was perfect and all the concepts of Christianity were taught correctly. This is simply untrue, as they had to develop their religion according to the necessities of the time and understand what Jesus taught.
The only difference between today and the past is that back then Jesus was the head of the church and they followed him no matter what other people said, whereas in the centuries after, men have taken it upon themselves to take control and dictate to others, whether it is through a Pope or a GB.
Hi DB, I totally agree with everything you said, including about the hierarchy. For an organised message to get to all nations, there has to be some form of authoriity to do the organising. Same with any successful business. It does not just happen there has to be planning. So of course it was wrong of the society to slag other religions off, when they do exactly the same thing. To their credit they at least do not adopt fancy titles or wear special clothes. But all this is minor stuff when compared to the bigger picture of how the org has ruined so many peoples lives around the world.
The organization ruins the lives of people that let them ruin their lives……….
It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.
Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into.
My decisions are based on what i think and believe, not on the thoughts or expectations of everybody else.
Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.
The majority of what JW believe is bible based and it’s true,
don’t trough the baby out with the bath water
in response to Peter….DO NOT attempt to tell me that Jehovah’s Witnesses new what they were getting into…how did I know what I was getting into at age 12…..we were always told not to read anything or talk to anyone with a differing opinion…no internet back in the 70’s..just the message of YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER! I was well indoctrinated and afraid to deviate for fear of armaggdon and the elders. Yes i grew up but you where still taught to not question or doubt for that would be questioning Jehovah.
you also say that the Majority of the JW teachings are right or from bible? Thats such a crazy statement on so many levels, can you share one teaching you are questioning?
Cause after only 4 months of researching JW I threw the bath water, baby, and soap out and then dissinfected the tub!
shannon
Peter: “It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.
Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into…
Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.”
Your solipsism is showing, Peter. The fact that you seem self-centered here shows me that you NEED to hear the thousands of experiences of people who have left the organisation. Just type in ‘ex-JW’ to the search engine and begin your education.
No, it’s simply NOT TRUE that people know what they’re getting into when the get baptised. Did you know, for instance, that even having thoughts that are ‘contrary to the beliefs of JWs is a disfellowshipping offence?
Did you know that even innocently spending the night in the house with a known homosexual could get you disfellowshipped?
While you could get disfellowshipped for using a YMCA swimming pool, the WTBTS has been part of the UN family for 10 years. Did you know that, Peter?
I could go on, but you need to find this stuff out for yourself.
The fact is, you don’t ‘know’ anything until you’ve at least read accounts from an objective point-of-view. Start with the book Crisis of Conscience by ex-governing body member Ray Franz (nephew of the late ‘great’ Fred Franz.
Tell us what you think.
Frank
Peter, you say:
“It hasn’t ruined mine and many other witnesses, i am very happy being one of Jehovah’s witnesses.”
Good for you. Would you still be happy if your son or daughter was molested by a brother in your hall despite your elders knowing he was a pedophile?
“Everyone that became a JEHOVAH’S WITNESS new what they were getting into.”
When you say “everyone” please do not include me. I was brainwashed as a kid and baptized at a tender age, before I had even started high school.
“My decisions are based on what i think and believe, not on the thoughts or expectations of everybody else.”
Wrong. Your decisions are based on what the Governing Body tells you to think.
“Don’t blame other people for what happened to you, that was your choice at the moment, you were not unconscious when you made those choices.”
No, but I was a kid and far from old enough to know what I was getting into or to devote my entire life to the servitude of a human organization.
“The majority of what JW believe is bible based and it’s true,
don’t trough the baby out with the bath water”
Peter, do some research before making that sort of sweeping statement. Everything that JWs believe that makes them unique from other Christian denominations (i.e. 1914, 1919, faithful slave) is entirely false and unfounded. I hope one day you realise that, for your sake.
Cedars
I would not be happy if one of my children were molested by a brother or whom ever.
Yes i would include you, you think you were brainwashed good for you, now that you have realized that you can move on with yr life.
►You are WRONG,
I THINK FOR MYSELF.
if something doesn’t make sense it probably is not true.
I can go into some examples but i don’t really know if you would know what i was talking about.
►You said it, You devoted your life in the servitude of a HUMAN organization. You were serving MEN an org. the results of that are obvious. I serve JEHOVAH GOD THE ALMIGHTY GOD.
►What Jehovah’s Witnesses teach is the truth
the date thing is a mess, But the rest is the pure TRUTH.
►I don’t believe the slave can be found in religions and organizations that kill each other to defend a land.
I don’t believe that the slave of Christ
teaches hell
trinity
eternal soul
and all the other biblical truths we have come to know and appreciate so much.
As i said before THE DATES, i don’t what to hear about dates from the brothers. Jah has made a fool a men who to go beyond what is written in the scriptures
Thanks Peter, you’ve made it clear to me that you are one confused individual.
A child does what he is told, an adult makes it’s own decisions
i was never tough not to question and i have been a Jehovah’s witness all my life third generation, my very nature is to question, the whole organization is based on questioning and finding answers.
Most Jehovah’s witnesses use their own judgement,
For example
For years and years, the brothers said without any bible basis that in 1935 Jehovah stopped the heavenly calling
NO MORE INCORPORATIONS said on of the governing body members.
You would think then that the partaking of the emblems at the memorial would have stopped, surely no one would go against the GOVERNING BODY- but is that what happened?
Newly Anointed brothers and sisters kept partaking, the amount increased. the teaching changed and all is good.
So most Jehovah’s witnesses are level headed people that recognize that what they have learned is based on the BIBLE.
And Tolerate what is not written and what are opinions of the governing body.
Hi Peter, its true that the churches teach many unscriptual things, but i.m afraid JWs do as well. Have you any idea how many lives have been ruined because of their obsession with dates in the last 130 years. How many have died because of their no transplants, no vaccinations and no blood at all rules. All these things have changed now but thousands died and suffered because of their false teachings. Do you think it is right that a family member should be totally shunned by their former brothers, simply because they no longer can go along with what the gov body says is ‘present truth’. There is no scriptual case for shunning someone who simply cannot go along with some of the doctrines any more, and writes a letter saying that. Most of the things the society have changed in recent years were foretold would happen by ex witnesses. It was obvious to us that the generation teaching was totally wrong, that 1935 was, that increase in memorial partakers was wrong. We have also been saying for ages that the internet will slow the societies increase down to almost nothing. That too has happened. You need to check things out yourself. You simply cannot do that if you always use the societies literature.
I wish you well.
I doubt that at that time thousands have died like you say,
fist there were not that many witnesses at that time and second i don’t think that thousands of them had to have transplants and died.
No blood at all,then because of the science, now came into play the famous blood fractions.
Thousands of people die in general because science did not know at the time, but we don’t dismiss science because it changes we welcome the change as an improvement.
The present truth you say if you don’t agree yr shunned.
How do you voice yr disagreement?
if you are in a group and you start criticizing everything and you speak out disrupting others naturally you are going to be shunned.
You have the 1935 thing, many anointed witnesses partook because they listened to JEHOVAH and not the Gov Bod.
It’s all what you make it, the ones that left because they did not agree with that were not around to see the fix.
☺
Cedar,
The truth is that Jehovah’s witnesses have put together the biggest campaign to preach the good news of the kingdom of God throughout the world.
You seem to always focus on the negative,while Jehovah’s Witnesses have not reached every country in the world OFFICIALLY, unofficially the work is being done, it just cant be publicized for the safety of the brothers. but you must admit they have done a pretty good Job Right?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have never said that they are in every country, they have never said it , we do not believe that.
The WATCHTOWER does not want us to think that nor do we believe that.
Peter, all you’re doing is spouting Watchtower propaganda without taking the time to do some objective research. I can’t do your thinking for you, but I will lose patience if you continue to fill this page with your Watchtower indoctrination.
As to your strange “officially/unofficially” argument – surely you realise that the “30 other lands” in the worldwide report are the countries where the Society is “unofficially” active – and yet these still represent an abismally small percentage of the population of these countries. I have already identified in a previous article (below) that these 30 lands (33, actually) account for nearly a third of the world’s population (roughly 2 billion people) – and yet there are only, according to 2012 statistics, 28,000 JWs active in this part of the world – or 1 in 71,000 people. In short, if you live in an arab or communist country, it is virtually impossible that you will ever come into contact with a JW.
Here is the link…
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/under-the-microscope-the-watch-tower-societys-claims-to-divine-direction-part-3
Seriously though, this website is a haven from brainwashing, not a platform for you to provide more of it. If you need help, by all means seek it here. But if you hijack this page you will find yourself forced to take your message elsewhere.
Cedars
Peter I will address your stand. I was born into the JW world in the 70’s and never knew anything else. I was socialized among others that believed and thought the same way. I was persecuted in elementary school for not saluting a flag and holidays. Those were rough times as I was also punished on both ends. My parents would use a belt or a wooden paddle to enforce the JW standards on me. Today this is considered child abuse as this left bruises and welts along with stinging pains and emotional to psychological abuse. For those that experienced this life it was not by choice but by force. I was also confused with relationships outside the JW world too. Some of my friends families were split with some that got involved and others that did not. At school I could have friends but after those same friends were not allowed to associate with me as this was a risk. I was often forced to be with other JW kids which at times was acceptable but not always my choice. I was forced at times to go out door to door and this was routine not always enjoyable. I did have good friends within the Kingdom Hall and some crushes on the young women too. The culture forces you to choose a mate within and does often groom you to that direction. If your area is limited to choices then you must travel around or stay single. I enjoyed pioneering as I spent much of my time with a young woman I was prospecting to become my future wife. I had to stop the Pioneering work part way into the year because my father needed me to work to help out. If you pioneer you actually feel out a contract telling them that you will commit to 1000 hours of preaching work to headquarters. If you fail to maintain 90 hours a month you must have a good reason or be removed from the title. Wake up this is years of forced conditioning and incentives to continue or suffer negative backlashes. If you attain a title it assists in getting a better selection for a wife if you are doing so. I can go on about much more details but I will leave it alone for today. I never had a choice along with others born into it. I am 2nd generation JW.
Indoctrination or The truth?,
►When one thinks differently from you, you threaten to LOOSE PATIENCE WITH ME, how interesting.
☺IS THAT NOT THE SAME THING You ARE ACCUSING Jehovah’s witnesses of Doing……………
I am not going to blindly agree with you the WATCHTOWER or anybody else.
If you need to loose your patience with me that is your choice
i remain coll a a cucumber fruit of the spirit
amen!
1 Peter 3:15
Amplified Bible (AMP)
15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
Peter, don’t play that game with me. I have given you far more time on this web page than the Society would EVER give me on theirs. This is about ignorance on your part. You can’t be bothered to bring yourself up to speed on basic information that everyone else on here is well aware of, and you talk down to us as though WE know nothing when in fact you are the one in the dark.
There is nothing hypocritical about me protecting visitors to this website from attacks by trolls who spam Watchtower indoctrination over multiple posts. If you are not a troll, then fine – you’ve made your point. Move on. However, your unwillingness to listen to anyone else’s point of view and apparent insistence on drilling home your version of reality is so far making you seem extremely troll-like.
Cedars
Yes, it is true that Jehovah’s Witnesses are primarily known as a preaching organisation, Peter, but when Jesus said, “By their fruits you will know (his disciples),” this would also apply to those inside the organisation too. Note that WT propaganda (neither have they made mention of their appalling management of certain issues – neutrality – UN, care for children – Candace Conti etc) has made almost no mention of the internal problems being faced by acolytes having to face the, at time, very poor leadership from the top rank to the bottom rank. Is God going to overlook what amounts to deliberate mismanagement of his people? Why is it that people only in the lowest ranks are punished for their ‘unfaithfulness’?
Cedars: “Thanks Peter, you’ve made it clear to me that you are one confused individual.”
What should not be forgotten, though, Cedars, is that Peter is here, putting his thoughts into print, and like Skyrainbow, Peter is either a masochist (wanting to be ‘persecuted)’, or wants their ‘strongly-entrenched beliefs to be intelligently overturned.
Stick around guys.
Frank
With Peter, I don’t think it was the latter. We kept “overturning” his assertions and he would just twist things, throw up smokescreens using flawed logic, or pull yet more assertions out of the hat. He’s a troll, and I’m not the only one who thinks so. I’m all for genuine JWs who want to engage in debate, but there was nothing genuine about Peter. This site is better off without his sort.
Thanks for replying Peter, I grant you transplant and vaccination rejection did not kill thousands, but certainly the insistance of no blood transfusions at all until recently has killed thousands. The big difference in what you say about others dying because medicine had not advanced that much is not a valid point, because medicine was well aware that blood transfusions could save lives and JWs decided to totally ignore what medicine was showing them.
I was trying to show you the difference between a person causing divisions in the congregation and the thousands that leave because they disagree with doctrine. These are not ones that try to get people to follow them from the congregation, they are ones who have had enough of all the false pronouncements etc and decide they no longer wish to be known as JWs. In other words they simply leave and get on with their lives. And yet if they send a letter to the society stating that they no longer wish to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses they are shunned for the rest of their lives by former good friends and family. do you think that is scriptual? You will find it is not if you read the bible properly, without the organisation pushing its own agenda at you.
You need to realize that the society only change something when they have little choice. All the examples I gave you, gave them no choice. They had to think of something else to take the place of their false statements
I do give you respect for trying to defend your faith, but I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. May I suggest if Cedars does bar you from here, you join the ‘Topix forum’ about Jehovah’s Witnesses, where you will be able to say whatever you wish, although you will find it just as hard to defend the Watchtower because most times we quote the societies own words that condemn themselves. But you would be welcome there.
Peter- I don’t want to see you removed from this site. Please go over the posting on the F&DS on this site, it has 395 comments on it. Read through the comments and you will come across a person called ‘skyrainbow’. This series of comments is heading the same way I fear. Please don’t be like ‘skyrainbow’.
I am a 2nd generation JW, baptised in 1981, elder for nearly 13 years (but not anymore). I still believe in the basic, biblically provable teachings taught by the WT. But most who get baptised do not FULLY understand the ‘small print’. I know of 2 thirteen year old girls who got baptised recently. Can they really FULLY understand the consequences of making the most important decision of their lives? I have a 13 year old daughter and there is no way she is old enough to make such a major life changing decision.
At Anonymous/Peter
Have you forgotten one of the earliest lessons you were taught as a JW? “One bad apple spoils the whole barrel” or “a little leaven ferments the whole lump”. How many times over the years have I heard that argument against the RC church or any other false religion? What about the old “Would you drink this cup of water if I told you there was only a little bit of poison in it?” Remember the call “Get out of her my people. If you don’t want to share in her sins.” these days the society is teaching “commands of men as doctrines” and harsh judgement awaits. Personally I don’t think it can be changed now it’s beyond help, it’s like a big dirty puddle, there is only one way to get clean is to get out and help others out. Stop being an apologist for a corrupt organisation that some call the “Mother” an extremely distasteful term; next it’ll be called “Queen of earth”.
What’s this “We all knew what we were getting involved in?” I beg to differ, personally I was handed a copy of ‘Paradise lost to paradise regained’ sometime in the early 70’s and was scared of the terrifying images of buildings collapsing and burning images of armageddon, not a nice way to introduce people to Jehovah? What about “You will not grow old in this system of things” that was a lie. No-one can honestly defend the kind of antics the GB have been up to. The fact that for generations the society argued in court after court that all JW’s are Ministers is a case of “By your words you’ll be condemned because now there are JW Ministers who are paedophiles calling Door2door unknown by the public– that’s just not right. And don’t forget the generation who saw 1914 with eyes of understanding- Hilarious if it wasn’t such a LIE.
Tamethyst
Attacs?,…
More like REPLY,
But because the reply said that JW HAVE PREACHED, that is all it takes to throw me off the site, You see in any group people have to be on board.
Just like here, if you don’t follow Cedar’s moaning and groaning about The Brothers. you cant be on the site.
Peter, I have been far more patient with your “moaning and groaning” than the Society will ever be with mine. At least I have facts and solid information to support my views. Your opinions are based on nothing more than blind loyalty and indoctrination.
Cedars
I have moaned and groaned like you about the things that are wrong, but i support what is bible based teachings and the worship of God. the ones that are not bible based i don’t go for in my heart.
There are few things though, that are not in the bible.
For example all the dates.
I am now pointing out about something that i have been noticing lately regarding the anointed,..I have noticed that Only the Governing Body member are ANOINTED, every one else
“CLAIMS TO BE ANOINTED” why is that i wonder, whats that all about?
Let me ask you something if i may please, If you still believe in God What kind of worship of God are you doing now? Do you currently believe anything that yr parents thought you as JW’S.
Peter, as I said to begin with – I can’t do your research for you. You are making assumptions about my religious beliefs without having checked out my blog articles. If you’re really fascinated by my outlook, read this: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/is-jwsurvey-org-an-apostate-website
Cedars
Thank you Cedars,
Apostasy to me is going against the teachings of Christ, Not the brothers.
I generally don’t follow anyone blindly or other wise , especially when it comes to a serious thing like the worship of God.
From my humble point of view, One follows when one is a child, an adult thinks and reasons about things.
Balance is the key,
The things that the brothers teach differ greatly from what other christian religions that use the bible as their base.
They all go to war
they all are part of the world
they don’t preach
they have God confused this two other people so how can they possibly worship God when they don’t even know who it is.
So i don’t agree that no group can claim to have the truth, as a mater of fact all christian churches claim to have the truth, that is why they are so divided.
As for me i will serve Jehovah God where i learned the truth about the bible.
If my child is abused, i will call the police and probably beat up the abuser.
I don’t consider everything said by the brothers as true, they even warn us to make sure that what we are being taught comes from the bible.
But i do think that the org has been used By JEHOVAH to shed light on the false bible teachings of the churches, the evil slave is in with the good slave at the WATCHTOWER since the temple has not been inspected, so maybe the things that are wrong is a result of that bad slave could it be?
I never believed the honey moon between the brothers and JEHOVAH, no anoints feels that way.
I’ll tell you one thing, i am not going to stop believing in Jehovah and his purpose for the world because of a bunch of men that are imperfect like me, they don’t have that much influence on me.
I’m going to share a bit of info i hope it is not used against me or bash me please, i am an anointed christian i have been for many many years, i got my anointing/calling when i was 15 years old, i got it here believing that God is not a trinity, that God will make the earth a paradise, that God has chosen a few to be part of the Government.
Remember that i was never taught that people go to heaven, all the focus was on paradise on earth, i used to warn my parents not to partake because i did not want to be left alone on earth w/out them.
So that was a big surprise to me, it has always been a very sacred thing and so far removed from our family us.
So that might help you understand where i am coming from i am not a fanatical closed ear Jehovah’s Witness, i would like to think that i am a pretty open minded person, kinda logical and to the point, i don’t defend anything blindly as a rule i tend to side with the accuser at first and tend to investigate what is being said.
Sincerely
Peter
Hi Peter, I think many ex witnesses agree with some of what the organisation teaches, just like they believe in some of what the churches teach. Trouble is there is just too much wrong in the org, and it has ruined too many lives for anyone to take it seriously.
There is so much info about the org available on the internet that is checkable, very few people now are joining the religion and then staying. In fact it is one of the most mobile religions in the world, so 65 percent that grow up in the religion apparently leave during their adulthood.
Peter, you said: “I don’t consider everything said by the brothers as true”
Congratulations – you have just identified yourself as an apostate according to the strict definition enforced by your local elders. Welcome to the club!
Cedars
*** pr section 7 p. 28 par. 20 God’s Purpose Soon to Be Realized ***
By whom? By millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are preaching in every country on earth.
*** dg part 11 p. 30 par. 10 The New World’s Foundation Now Being Formed ***
Millions of Witnesses call on people in every nation to talk to them about the new world.
Hi Ant, if you check your 2012 service report in the 2013 Yearbook, you will soon realize that although they are indeed in most countries on earth, they most certainly have not given the JW message to everyone on earth. Getting on for half the world’s population have never seen a witness. There are millions more that have no idea what JWs preach. You may say it is good enough just being in a country and it does not matter if only a few people have met the witnesses. That would mean that billions of people will be destroyed not even knowing what they have done wrong. If you think that is good and fair and just, well you really do need some therapy.
Yes Alan, that was why I pasted that in the comment. Some commenter said that the Watchtower never claimed to be in every country. Before Cedars wrote the article about preaching in all the earth I had no idea that the they had actually said they had! I agree that it can’t be fair and just that billions will die when they’ve never heard. I think it was Rutherford who came up with this ridiculous teaching.
The ratio to witnesses in the world is small. The world population is about 7.1 billion and if the JW group is 7,782,346 this is around 1 JW to about 1000 people. So does this mean that 1 person talks to 3 people a day each year. To do such a thing would mean going into remote places and having access to areas that are limited such as gated homes or communities. This idea that 239 out of 266 lands has members is at first glance amazing.
The African continent has 1.3 million while all the Americas from North to South are 3.8 million out of 1 billion or more just in the Americas. It worries me that 4 people out of 1000 just in the Americas are doomed to die if they do not convert to a JW. Just taking into account the Americas according to the 2013 Yearbook this would mean around 996 million to a billion people would die if Armageddon hit this year just on the Americas side. Is this something a loving God would do to all of us?
This would be the biggest genocide of all time. Looking at current info Africa is one billion population with 1.3 million JW members. This place would lose almost everyone too and we are looking at about 5 million JW survivors from 2 billion population which appears to be alot of death. Wait it gets more grim since we have 2.7 million left out of 5 more billion this seems like the worse nightmare hit our world. It is not realistic thinking to consider this as a belief or fact. No loving God would do such a cruel act to his creation. If I believed this today then I would be considered nuts by all those potential dead people and they would be right. Cedars is just rationalizing HARD FACTS and that is why I come here to vent and heal from my past. I have healed more on your forum than the last 15 years or so. Listen to me I left because I realized if I did stay I would be living a lie. The truth is we are all anointed ones which are chosen though divine selection but only some recognize they are and admit to it. The GB is misleading its members from believing that they are not anointed. I will focus next time on making a textbook argument but this is a forum not a lecture class.
Hi Alan,
I agree with your points too. Basically, I think that a hierarchy can work fine in principle, is necessary in a large-scale scenario, and many do actually work reasonably well, such as most mainstream Christian groups despite their issues/problems, which all organisations will have to some extent. Unfortunately, in any hierarchy, no one can know everything people in the organisation are doing, so individuals can abuse their position of authority to exploit others. When a scandal is exposed, most organisations will (often reluctantly) admit to the flaws in their system and do their best to fix it quickly.
However, the hierarchical system the WTS employs is fundamentally flawed, as they ignore any serious problems and employ unfair techniques, such as indoctrination and shunning practices, in order to maintain absolute control over the lives of their followers. Their hypocrisy is astounding. Despite the issues we can pick out in any organisation though, at least most other Christian groups do not demand absolute obedience to their leaders by threatening their followers’ basic human rights, and are usually willing to reform if there are problems. It’s a constant balancing act of maintaining long-held beliefs, while acknowledging the need for change and progress when necessary.
DB, this last paragraph is particularly significant. With the interview of Lance Armstrong by Oprah going out recently, it has been described as the telling of the story of blackmail and suing if any of the interviewee’s secrets had got out and other types of bullying. I see direct parallels with the subject under discussion here.
It is any person’s right under a democracy to fall in love with an organisation’s self-publicised cover-story, but no one should base their lives only on part-information. The WTBTS has oft-used the illustration of not wanting to drink a glass of clear-looking water that they know is poisoned. Armstrong was much vaunted and lionised for his charitable works. However, most, if not all, of it now has to be retracted. Why? Because the basic premise was false. Lie after lie was told to maintain the cover-story.
The Catholic Church will go the same way, eventually. If we are to accept that God is perfect in love and action, then we must also accept that his organisation, though not humanly perfect – MUST BE UNIMPEACHABLE. Have THE FACTS demonstrated this?
Frank V
the watchtower org is crisis, bcoz of many wrong descion of gov body.maybe many other jw that close to them give advice.but they not humbly accept the correction.they not imitate Moises.(w13 2/1 p.5) why they listen, they think they are superior in the org.they feel that they are the only group in org that not need correction.
but keep in mind that even in israel the kings that sit in Jehovah’s throne, exprience discipline and refroop. Jehovah send Samuel to king Saul, natahn send to king David, and other prophets send to many kings of israel to show their sins.
The gov Body always said “wait Jehovah” if there is something wrong. But who will use to correct the situation?. the gov body?.I dont think so. I’m sure Jehovah and Christ Jesus will use other servant to correct them and they must lsten.
I think it likely that the Governing Body believes that they only answer to God. If God tests his people and the GB are at the top with the highest responsibility then we should expect God to do the same in the highest eschalons. The human experience is that as time goes on and on, and nothing appears to happen as far as divine judgement is concerned, those in high places feel more and more secure. There’s even a sense of being untouchable if one believes one has God’s approval.
Isn’t ‘Pride comes before a fall’ a Biblical expression, after all?
I think it sensible and a human right for conscientious members to disassociate themselves emotionally, spiritually, and even physically, while a number of present religious policies are causing demonstrable harm to humans within its own ranks.
It’s funny that the GB likes to think of itself as Moses was to God, but they oddly (apart from some inadequate pseudo-acknowledgements such as in the January WT about wrong prophetic dates) fail to see that they also have the flaws that Moses had. Moses was made to see the errors of his ways (didn’t see the Promised Land), will the so-called untouchable GB (WT) be forced likewise?
Frank
Listen Mr Frank,
My brothers are always welcomed at my house, i am a pretty grown up boy and can take my own decisions.
The warning is just that, a heads up, not a prohibition.
The Brother who comes to my door and counsels me on something is looking out for me,.. There is a danger of going into the dark side, that is all.
The warning comes from a good place.
But as i said before,
The brothers have their mouth under their nose just like everybody else.
It’s not a dictatorship, i can take it or leave it
I can decide for myself if i am going to take the advice or not, even Jehovah God does not force us to do anything it is up to us otherwise it would be of no use
Mr. Peter,
Before you sound off about the WTBTS, you may wish to read and mediate on TTAT (“The truth about the truth”). If you dare, try theses sites for a start. This is the potential reality if you should decide for yourself what is right and wrong and refuse to have your mind readjusted by well-intention order-following elders.
This is an actual judicial case which has a full transcript on this site. If you wish confirmation at the mouth of two or more witnesses, there are others on this site too. Enjoy.
Get the FULL FACTS and then tell me I’m a fool.
http://thegoverningbody.org/religious-ethics-jehovahs-witnesses-disfellowshipping-committee-judicial/
http://thegoverningbody.org/the-martyring-of-matthew-barriea-study-in-religious-ethics-part-2/
http://thegoverningbody.org/the-martyring-of-matthew-barrie-a-study-in-religious-ethics-part-3/
Frank
Peter,
You say “I can decide for myself if i am going to take the advice or not, even Jehovah God does not force us to do anything.”
A telling comment as you say “Jehovah does not force us.” But the Governing Body does force people under threat of disfellowshipping! So it is a dictatorship, You must do what GB says, you must only read what they say, you must believe what they say and not make up your own mind. Who do they think they are? They like to think they’re like Moses? Moses was a mediator- they are not.
Tamethyst
I agree Tamethyst, your comment reminds me of this:
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.”
I am not quite sure how anyone would know what you read,what you believe and where you go, That could only be done if there was a yearly review after baptism going over everything to see if you agree or disagree, the majority of witnesses are occupied trying to just keep in the running like Paul said.
I make up my own mind because i am responsible for me, I don’t believe certain things that we as JW are taught, i think that most witnesses feel that way, and the ones that don’t have a problem.
I don’t go around criticizing and convincing other brothers to see things the way i do , but i also do not hide what i feel, i have spoken about it here at home to brothers that have come over and we have talked.
I gotta me me like Frank Sinatra said
You cant put that much trust and power in a group of human beings. ☻