Shunning.
The refusal of blood transfusions.
The deliberate refusal to report child abuse to the authorities.
These are probably the three most harmful practices that the Watchtower organisation is guilty of. The Unholy Trinity, if you will.
Granted, there are many more problems in Watchtower, but few are of quite the same magnitude. Telling people they can’t wear tight pants? Stupid but not something that warrants an FBI investigation. Not turning a known child abuser over to law enforcement as a matter of policy, however? That’s something the FBI should be very interested in.
These three things: shunning, blood, and child abuse, are the ones that most activists feel warrant a Governmental response due to the massive level of emotional and physical harm they can inflict, up to and including the loss of life.
I completely agree with them.
But should that legal response be a ban on the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Some would say so, and on the surface this might seem sensible. After all, things that are very harmful should automatically be illegal, right?
Well not always.
History has many examples of things that are harmful becoming even more so when placed under ban; take a look at Prohibition America. Or take another example: cheating on a spouse is clearly harmful, and unethical, but most people would not want the Government to imprison you for it, and would be terrified of a Government that wanted the power do so.
The most obvious answers to problems are not always the right ones, and the recent actions by the Russian Government, which looks set to ban the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, are sadly just going to make a bad situation worse.
Why do I say this? As someone who is very aware of the awful damage Watchtower’s teachings can inflict, and who agrees that something urgent needs to be done at the Governmental and legal level, why on earth would I oppose a ban?
For two reasons.
Firstly such a ban is deeply unethical, for reasons well articulated by JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans here,
Secondly it won’t work. In fact, it will actively make worse the very issues that cause most people to want the religion banned.
I recognise that some who read this article will not agree with me on this, and so I am going to present a detailed argument to showcase why I have arrived at this conclusion. It’s my hope that by the end I will have convinced you, or at the very least you will better understand my position and that this will enable discussion going forward.
Banning belief does not stop belief.
Lets begin with the obvious. If Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned, they don’t suddenly stop being Jehovah’s Witnesses. This might seem like an obvious point to make but it rests at the very core of understanding why a ban will fail in the real world:
Just because people are no longer allowed to believe a thing does not mean that they will stop believing that thing.
History teaches us this time and time again. Indeed, one can look at the Witnesses themselves for proof. This group has been repeatedly subject to bans in the past, and continues to be banned in a number of countries today. Has this ban resulted in the cessation of Witness activity in these places?
Of course not.
Rather, we see that Witnesses still believe what they believe. Historically they have even chosen to undergo horrific abuse and persecution, up to and including torture and execution, rather than renounce their faith after a ban. And eventually, when the ban is lifted, the JW’s are still there and are often some of the most energised and faithful JW’s on the planet.
Thus all one has to show for the weeping mountain of human torment and blood soaked misery caused by a ban is the same JW organisation, right back where it was, often stronger and more faithful than before.
So that’s the first thing to understand. Enacting a ban is not a magic “make-cult-go-away” wand. Now that we’ve established this key point, lets move on the “Unholy Trinity” and I will lay out my case for why the ban won’t stop these things but will make them even worse.
Shunning: Why a ban will make it worse.
As we have discussed, banning a belief does not stop people believing it. Thus, Witnesses who believed in shunning before the ban will also believe in shunning after the ban. In fact, it will get worse.
Why?
Because now, for a JW, cutting off and avoiding those who leave the faith isn’t just a matter of their spiritual life and death. It’s a matter of their physical life and death as well, and the life and death of the fellow Witnesses around them.
Imagine that you are a JW, part of this forbidden group. Your congregation has gone to ground, your worship, your study, your preaching work is done in secret. If the details or even the existence of any of this got out, you risk arrest and imprisonment. Now, ask yourself:
If you were a JW, are you more likely or less likely to associate with those you consider hostile to your faith in this situation?
If you think your JW family is shunning you now, just wait until a ban hits and they vanish off the face of the Earth. Additionally, for the many faded ones who’ve struck a certain equilibrium with their JW family and still have a measure of contact, such a ban could result in even that limited contact being frozen and cut off as Witnesses begin to fear for their freedom and their lives, and become even more insular to protect their group.
Also: If you think a ban gives you some leverage to force your family to associate with you, you might want to think again. I mean, how exactly is this supposed to play out? You demand that your mother associate with you again, as her religion and its shunning policy are now illegal. She refuses as she still believes the shunning teaching, as history proves that she will.
So you call the police…and send her to prison? Or maybe get the police to force your mother at gunpoint to sit at a table with you and have a meal? I bet that’ll be a fun time.
See the problem here?
Lloyd Evans made this very point in his recent BBC interview: imprisonment is not a proportionate response to shunning.
Refusal of Blood Transfusions: Why a ban will make it worse.
Let’s be direct here: The blood teaching has cost lives across the decades and will continue to cost them for as long as non-blood alternatives remain second best in certain medical scenarios, or until Watchtower abandons its discredited blood policy, which ever comes first.
And a ban is just going to make that situation even worse.
How so?
Well, as we have said, people do not stop believing a thing just because it is banned. After a ban, Witness will still believe that it is far better to die than get a blood transfusion. After all, if you die you get resurrected in the blink of an eye to a wonderful paradise Earth full of your loved ones. If you take blood, no paradise for you (and possibly no friends or family in this old world either as the shunning takes affect.)
So how will this play out under ban? Well, JW’s now know that if they go to hospital and refuse blood, they have instantly identified themselves as part of a banned religion. Remember, membership of a banned religion is illegal. So what will happen is firstly that they will be probably be given blood against their will (governments that don’t respect freedom of religion usually also fail to respect a person’s rights to decide their own medical treatment) and then they risk being handed over to the police for interrogation and possibly prison.
If you are a JW who belives that death is the doorway to paradise, are you more or less likely to seek out medical help in this situation?
After all, if you die, you get resurrected in the blink of an eye to a wonderful paradise Earth full of all your loved ones, free from this nightmare world that wants to imprison you alongside rapists and killers. Sadly, one can even imagine that ones might be pressured into this by the JW community, who fear that a hospitalised and interrogated JW might give up others in the congregation.
A ban isn’t going to save lives. It’s going to cost them. That’s before we even touch on the issue of JW’s who might die in police custody, or be beaten or stabbed to death in prison.
Not reporting Child Abuse: Why a ban will make it worse.
The findings of The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse make for gruesome reading. The Commission found that since the 1950’s Watchtower, as a matter of explicit policy, has not reported over 1006 child abusers in its congregations to the police.
Full details can be reviewed here but essentially the ARC found that Watchtower would take no internal action over an accusation of child abuse unless there were two witnesses to the abuse, and even if internal disciplinary action over the abuse did take place, the Watchtower organisation would not report the abuser to the police unless legally required to do so by law.
Sounds like a quick ban on the religion will sort this one out right?
Nope.
It will make it worse.
Firstly, as any former Jehovah’s Witness knows, and as was confirmed during the ARC hearings, Watchtower fosters in the Witness community a distrust of secular authorities. In fact, this was cited as one of the reasons as to why the Witnesses (in some cases even the victims themselves) seemed reluctant to involve law enforcement in the instances of child sex abuse. Keep in mind that the JW culture studied at the ARC existed in a liberal democracy where the police existed to protect and serve the public, and by extension the Witnesses.
Imagine what will happen when the police no longer protect and serve, but hunt and arrest JW’s as a matter of policy.
For Witnesses under a ban, the police and state become the enemy. They no longer protect and serve, they are no longer a safe haven. They arrest and imprison. Witnesses who are already wary of approaching the police will be even less inclined to do so. An abuse victim now knows that his or her going to the police might expose many Witnesses that they still love who were not part of the abuse. The victim themselves might still believe the religion is true, and not want to harm it by contacting authorities who are directly opposed.
How much better to not seek one’s own advantage but the advantage of others.
And how much better to wait on Jehovah and let him resolve matters.
Additionally consider the leverage that this gives a molester. The elders now know that if they take any action against him, his response could be to go right to the police, tell them that he has escaped the banned religious cult known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but can give them the names and locations of many active members.
Do you think elders are more or less likely to take effective action against abusers in this situation, especially in situations where they have only one witnesses and an element of doubt in their mind? And are the elders more or less likely in this situation to apply pressure to the survivor to let them handle things in-house, and not bring in the jackbooted police-thugs of Satan’s world?
Support solutions that work.
At the end of the day, the simple fact is that if you are concerned about the worst abusive practices of Watchtower, you will want solutions that effectively tackle them, not solutions that will make them worse.
Bans make these abuses worse.
There are solutions that can tackle these abuses effectively. Take for example the issue of Watchtower failing to report child abuse. Governments should introduce mandatory abuse reporting laws, and then criminally prosecute any elders who ignore those laws and those in the Watchtower hierarchy who instructed them to do so. This would either force Watchtower to report each accusation to the police, or if they refused would decimate Watchtower’s power structure and hold the Governing Body directly to account. It would also directly target those involved in covering up the abuse without needing to destroy the lives of the 90% of Witnesses who don’t even know the child abuse issue exists, let alone the details of the two witness rule.
Or take for example, the policy of shunning. We’ve discussed how one cannot “ban” shunning in any real sense, unless you want your relatives to eat with you at gunpoint, but Watchtower can certainly be stripped of any charitable status and tax breaks unless it agrees to renounce the policy. The resulting financial blow would be crippling to the organisation, pressuring them to either relax the shunning policy or to vastly hasten their own financial meltdown if they refuse.
Targeted solutions can make a genuine difference. Bans will just create even more misery.
I’ve not even touched here on the issue of how Watchtower membership numbers rot away in the free world but tend to hold steady under ban.
I’ve not even touched here on how bans make it far harder for JW’s to wake up and leave, or how they effectively trap the young born-in’s within the mental walls of a cult under siege, whilst doing very little to stop the organisation preying on the weak and vulnerable with covert informal witnessing.
And I’ve not even touched on how Governments that ban JW’s tend also to be the Governments that rack up human rights abuses on the rest of the population as well. The price of removing the human rights from one group is often watching those same rights get ripped away from everyone else.
In fact, I’d like to end on that point, with a poem written by German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller. It was written to reflect events that took place in Germany’s Third Reich, and highlights the dangers of passively accepting (or even welcoming) the persecution and abuse of groups other than your own by the Government.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
This poem is inscribed on the United States Holocaust Memorial in Washington.
I urge you to learn from history.
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Covert Fade here.
Just a quick note: If you disagree and want to let me know, you have two options.
The first is to read the article and respond to the actual points I have made. If you chose this option I look forward to reading your arguments and considering them. I’m an open minded dude: convince me I’m wrong.
The second is to post something like: “This cult is an evil moneymaking scam and should be banned!” If you chose this option it’s clear you’ve either not read the article or you have no arguments to make against the points I have made, in which case I’ll probably ignore you.
Be the first type of person.
Yes! The leaders of the religion…not the innocent brainwashed following…
Simply, im torn whether the ban is a good thing or not for some of the points raised here in your article.
Im torn because i dont know which is the lesser of the two ‘evils’.
Ask yourself if a ban will actually achieve anything vs the cost it will have on JW’s and the wider public and you have your answer.
the cost on the public at large–negative, because now the public will not need to fear that some one will interpret the polarizing rhetoric in Wt literature and act on it to cause them harm or to destroy.
Isaiah 11:9, 10
(what do you mean it’s misapplied?)
At first I was in full support of the ban but my mind has changed. I feel the focus after the ban while commenting on it should be the reasons what makes the WT an extremist organization.
Yes the unholy trinity are all valid reasons but there are so many many more.
The WT leadership is playing this out perfectly to raise JWs paranoia and awareness.
It sure overshadows child abuse news, it should be noted that WT leadership gets JWs involved in a hands on letter crusade for this but they lie silently dormant on the child abuse issues in Australia and U.K. It should be exposed that WT picks and chooses what they want brought to light when it comes to their governmental and legal issues going on behind the scenes.
Why didn’t they ask followers to write to ARC? Why not ask followers to write to U.K. Investigating child abuse policies? The more I watch and see the maneuverings of the GB and WT writings the stronger feeling I get is that there is really a group behind the scenes pulling strings to manipulate the GB and other higher ups. Just like the wizard hiding behind the curtain there really is an aware group manipulating the organization and followers. The curtain needs to be pulled down and ripped up continually to expose this fact. Dorothy and company lost all fear and became emboldened when they saw the reality.
There is a group behind the curtain it’s called the WT legal department. If you want to force a change in policy you have to hit them where it hurts the pocket book.
Agreed,…but the WT attorneys have made themselves also look like bumbling idiots in court when transcripts and testimony have been brought to light, I’m not 100% sure they are the ones fully in control but yes they do have lots of influence for sure.
No doubt the public in general have no idea what goes on in our organization, and no doubt shunning is a terrible experience. But there are other horrible experiences which members of the congregations face which I feel need to be publicized, firstly in the hope that exposure will cause changes in the congregations, and secondly so that people who want to become Witnesses are fully aware of what the environment is inside the congregations, so they know what to expect.
The horrible aspect I would like to see exposed is the bullying that goes on by the elders. There are so many of us who have been mentally and emotionally damaged by our organization which puts leadership first rather than sheep first. Once the elders in the congregation take a dislike to you, they can drag your name and your family’s name through the mud and get away with it scot free. They make many excuses: they are imperfect men; it’s your fault; if you don’t expect too much from the elders you won’t be disappointed; elders aren’t trained to deal with these situations, etc. But the human cost of their incompetence and injustices is appalling and growing year by year because they are allowed to get away with it. People’s lives are being ruined by mental and emotional abuse in the org, just as sexual abuse is ruining lives. There is no scrutiny of the elders taking place. We are told that it is wrong to be stumbled by the injustice which happens in a congregation. That is just the GB’s effort to deal with the symptoms of a disease, the GB refuses to deal with the disease itself, which is abusive elders.
As you mentioned in your interview with Evans, Covert, once problems arise and you see behind the curtain, you realize that the elders who you hoped would help you, don’t really care if you live or die.
Thus, as well as the sexual abuse of members, I feel that the mental and emotional abuse of members should also be highlighted. All types of abuse in our organization should be exposed. All types of abuse can ruin lives.
Shunning, as well as the sexual, mental and emotional abuse that goes on, are part of a larger problem in the org, which is a general lack of love, compassion and concern.
Ricardo. There is another abuse that the Organisation practices on its members. Every year at the Memorial, the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses reject Christ by passing the bread and the wine without partaking of the emblems. This is because the Watchtower Organisation has instructed JW’s not to partake of the emblems unless they are of the anointed. In John 6: 48 to 60, Jesus uses the words ANYONE twice and WHOEVER three times. At the Last Supper, Jesus told his disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of him. None of the disciples were of the anointed at that meal. Jesus told UNANOINTED men to eat the bread and drink the wine. Watchtower has corrupted the words of Jesus to fit its theology, it overrides Jesus. By not partaking of the emblems, the vast majority of JW’s deny Christ. Jesus invites EVERYONE to partake of His flesh and His blood. JW’s are so deeply seeped in Watchtower theology that they are unaware of this abuse and so accept it wholeheartedly.
@ I Foster;
For some reason, I believe the Watchtower practices this obvious faux pas due to its confusion between ‘other sheep’ and ‘great crowd’. These two separate groups were combined by the drunken sot J.F. (the Judge) Rutherford.
John 10:16 reads:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (KJV)
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. (ASV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2010:16
Notice in all cases Jesus uses ‘have’ as in the present tense. He does not say ‘had’ as in past tense nor does he say ‘will have’ as a future tense would imply. He has them now, in the first century. Who makes up the ‘other sheep’? The gentiles and Samaritans who had shown faith in him but came in after the keys of the Kingdom were used by Peter. Most Bible scholars believe this interpretation.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/10-16.htm
The ‘great crowd’ that are mentioned in Revelation 7:9 are the survivors of the Great Tribulation (in the future after the 1st century).
Rev. 7:9, 13-14 reads,
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes, he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Two entirely different groups one Jesus has already in the first century and another ‘who have come out of the great tribulation’.
As you said, quite correctly I believe,”By not partaking of the emblems, the vast majority of JW’s deny Christ. Jesus invites EVERYONE to partake of His flesh and His blood”.
Exactly so I Foster; not just 144,000 which, if taken literally, would have been filled at the end of the first century but all Christians which are one flock under Christ for all times (over 1900 years) throughout the Christian era.
I plan my memorial dinner with my family where we take the emblems freely; without the judgmental scowls and watchful eyes at the Kingdom Hall but at home. We don’t reject the emblems representing the sacrifice of Christ in our house.
Big B. I agree with you about the other sheep being the Gentiles and Samaritans, and also your decision to plan your memorial dinner at home where you can take the emblems freely. There is much in Watchtower theology that has been contrived to fit scripture. It would take too long, as you can imagine, to list all the falsehoods and misconceptions here.
One thing I will mention though is the addition five times of the word ‘other’ in Colossians 1: 16 to 20 in the NWT. In older versions of the NWT, the word ‘other’ is in parentheses to show it has been added to the text by the translator.
Now, the parentheses have been omitted and the text gives the impression that the word ‘other’ was always there in scripture. Any new, or future, JW reading the latest NWT will be mislead into believing that the word ‘other’ originated from the original Greek scripture. Watchtower is deceiving people by adding to scripture in order to fit its theology that Christ is a created being.
Also, compare Genesis 28: 13 to Exodus 6: 2 to 3 in the NWT. In this, Watchtower is making Jehovah out to be a liar.
I agree, there should be freedom of religion. Otherwise there’s only ‘fascism!’
And why should Jehovah’s Witnesses be put up for an example, when Roman Catholicism was detrimental to thousands of children with its Paediphile priests. We know through the news media that child abuse has been covered up for years.
Other religions have the same legacy.
Oh yes and government s, maybe governments should be banned, I’d start with the ,’warmongering’ USA government. That along with its allies has murdered 1 million Iraqis including 200,000 children and babies!
Banning JWs is not an option then, but making the leaders of it change their policy in child abuse. As for shunning its open to debate for me, I’d shun a child abuser, they deserve shunning. But the WT has shunned VICTIMS of RAPE, I know this first hand.
That is twisted thinking.
I’ve seen someone ignored because they started asking awkward questions about scripture. Sadly one attribute the WT keeps banging on about is ‘humility’ and yet I’ve experience far from humble ones who rule over the flock of the congregations.
@Straw and Heart
Your estimated total deaths of Iraqis due the United States military action seems grossly overestimated. Even the most liberal estimates place the total deaths at 500,000, although most authorities agree that it is not possible to predict the exact death toll. Can you provide a reference for your estimates? Here is mine: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4102855
The article I referenced admits that its estimates include “not only violent deaths but other avoidable deaths linked to the invasion, insurgencies and subsequent social breakdown.” It goes on to state that “Violence caused most of the deaths, but about a third were indirectly linked to the war.”
This indicates that the US was not directly responsible for these deaths, but rather the resulting destabilization of the infrastructure and Isamic forces opposed to the US involvement helped spike the death toll.
It’s a sad reality of war and the US may have had good intentions in removing a vicious dictator like Sadam Hussein, however the results were horrific. One question we can ask, how many Iraqi men, women, and children would have been killed over the same time period had Hussein been left in power?
WS
@Straw and Heart – you mentioned that JW’s and RCC (and other protestant groups and independent churches) have had child sexual molestation and abuse cases. But, I don’t recall hearing this prayer at any convention, or publication stating this equivalent,
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26989991
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-abuse-idUSBREA3A0UR20140411
Never thought I’d be a defender of *that* group, but there it is…
If it’s like the failed projections from Wt, we’ll first hear, it was the fault of the parents for letting their children roam unsupervised, then some years later after their coffers have nearly no coins left, a back-handed apology like, “we [the Society] may have by our statements in literature and by some well-intentioned representatives’ statements led parents to believe that they were bringing their children into a safe haven in which they could roam without concern.”
Excellent discussion of the ban Covert. At first I was all smiles about it. But, after consideration of the matter, I conclude the ban will not achieve what I most desire for JW’s. I want them to wake up from indoctrination. I want them to do it of their own volition. I also fear human rights abuses will grow in Russia’s current environment. Fox News and ABC News picked up this issue yesterday in brief.
Other important events are taking place as well as the Russian Supreme Court issue.?
President Trump, today says ;
“Tonight I call on all civilised nations in seeking to end the slaughter and bloodshed in Syria and also to end terrorism of all kinds and all types.
We ask for God’s wisdom as we face the challenge of our very troubled world. We pray for the lives of the wounded and the souls of those who have passed.
And we hope that as long as America stands for justice, peace and harmony will prevail. Good night and God bless America and the entire world”
According to Bible prophecy when the nations of this system feel confident they will proclaim Peace and Security, but it will be just a veneer. 1 Thessalonians 5 vs 3 states “Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape
This “suddenness” will be according to the Bible prophecy concerning the beast that the harlot rides pictures the world’s political powers.* (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction.
Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” (Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action?
The Bible book of Revelation answers: “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.” (Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.
I urge you to take note of President Trump’s speech above, it’s a continuation of a series of prophesied events leading the USA and Britain ( Anglo American World Power) to give more and more teeth and power to the Worlds Political powers under the “umbrella” of the UN, who will soon act for Jehovah God.
No actually none of what you pasted and copied from WT sources will ever happen. Those of us who have awoken from the delusion the WT had us under now know this. Right now you probably have no reason to question the WT but if you ever give yourself permission to take a critical look at the WT like I did years ago you will find out the same. Yes it may be traumatic and you may suffer mentally as I did but I’m thankful now I went thru it. Read Crisis of Conscience to see how quickly the WT will turn on one of their own, read Captives of a Concept to see the impossibility that the WT was chosen as “gods organization” then look at JWFacts and see what you will now consider lies but start investigating and you won’t be able to disprove the facts you see.
I couldn’t have said it better for me it was a critical look at the Bible that lead to my awakening because I honestly believed the WT to have the correct interpretation. Once you realize the basis for your faith is a sham the rest is immaterial, and leads to taking a closer look at your religions claims.
I was always bothered about this Rev.17:17 because if god puts thoughts into peoples minds/brains, well, he is playing puppet master. Really, the nations are not to”blame” for the attack on religion because they are being manipulated by god to do what he wants(which is really stupid since the attack is suppose to include god’s people. Go figure. And, the book of Rev. is just nuts. The world is not evolved enough to get rid of religion. jw’s are not the only ones who would fight to the death before giving up religion.
If in 60 years time, these things you have copied and pasted from wt publications does not occur, would you be more inclined to take another look at them if indeed they were true?
If in 60 years time, the GB members all die of, their generation doctrine “overlapping generation” doctrines fails, just jet again, would you be more willing to ask yourself if these interpretation were indeed true? Led by God spirit? Or was just another case of ‘light getting brighter’ ?
WT is a false prophet. None of their prophecies ever came true, and none will ever be. Jehovah doesn’t bless false prophets by making their prediction becomes true. WT is making up stories are they go by. However, when the above mentioned fails, they will simply make another story, and then called it “cherished understanding”.
The body of Jesus was barely cold before the first prediction of his definite return. These predictions have continued and each time, are ‘proven’ by matching the bible with current events. So eager are these fanatics to see destruction overtake the world, that they can’t see past their noses and each time, they are totally convinced of their rightness. I wonder what was going through the minds of similar people just prior to WW1, Crimea, WW2, The Crusades, etc, etc, etc?
Men invent, monkey’s imitate. Stop monkeying around and trying to ruin peoples peace of mind. We’re not interested in the mindless paranoia of deluded cultists.
This article provides a good summary of many the failed doomsday predictions since the time of Christ. https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/apocalyptic-end-of-world-predictions.php
WS
The Watchtower does an excellent job at looking at events after they unfold and claiming they are prophetic. However, true prophecy requires the events to be foretold ahead of time. The Watchtower never identified the Amglo-American empire as the two horned beast until AFTER the union between these two nations was well cemented. That’s not prophecy. That’s finding a way to make current events fit biblical writings, much like taking two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle and forcing them together.
I remember when President George HW Bush used the term “Peace and Security” in his speech about the Gulf War in 1990 and at the same time we saw the UN coalition mobilize to fight against Sadam Hussein. All the JWs had great expectations as to what that would mean for the end to take place. But nothing really came out of it.
WS
Well somebody should act for YHVH god. He’s sat on his thumbs for all this time and done nothing but watch people die, some very cruelly. BTW, since the U.N. is going to take care of things, what does he need you for then?
If I had the power to end things and save people I would.
There obviously is no god.
If there is he doesn’t have the power to stop things.
If he has the power but has done nothing then he is responsible for the results.
The only thing crazier than having an invisible friend (god, jesus, whatever) is blaming his faults on his invisible enemy. (you know, Satan)
Beasts, horns, kings, harlots. Tell me again what the difference is between the bible books and the game of thrones books? Oh, I don’t recall any talking animals in the game of thrones books. Those are in the Bible though.
Please think for yourself, and make your own determinations. They are lying to you. Your life will be better.
Good grief Silas;
Same old, song and dance Silas. Didn’t you just repeat this nonsense on the last post? You are certainly the voice of the Watchtower. Too bad you have no other knowledge or wisdom to impart other than to Polly parrot the same old Watchtower line. You’re selling and nobody is buying. How about that U.N. involvement or ‘door to door in ’74 to be alive in 75’? How’s that working for you? Look up ‘Watchtower and U.N. involvement for ten years’ yet?
I for one don’t care one pinch of owl dung if the J.W.’s are banned in Russia or anywhere else, personally, I don’t have a dog in that fight. I am not a J.W. now so I don’t care. As far as I can see there is not one damn thing anyone can do about it, period. The only one that can stop the ban is Russia and maybe, just maybe, world opinion may come into play.
In free countries they cannot do anything about the unholy trinity that are J.W.’s except fine them. Jailing the leadership, well good luck with that. Making them change their policy yeah, right; just like the ARC commission that has shown the light on those abuses but now what? Watchtower thumbs their noses at them and continues with their abusive policy’s anyway.
As to the ban; whether it works or not is immaterial.
The witnesses can do one of four things:
1. hope they can win in a court case for ban lifting (a sure way to lose with all this bad press around);
2. hunker down and pray to Jehovah for strength to endure which He probably won’t listen to as they are part of the whore of Babylon the Great for U.N. involvement (are you listening Silas?);
3. “pack up their troubles in their old kit bag and move, move, move”. (Leave mother Russia behind, if they can obtain visa’s);
4. resign from the Jehovah’s Witnesses as being what they truly are a doomsday, Adventist cult.
There maybe other options but like I said before “I personally don’t care as I am not a Jehovah’s Witness and don’t have any family in this organization or know anyone in Russia; except Putin who owes me $5.00 (with interest accruing daily). :)
My condolences to those if my apparent non-concern offends however, I’m a pragmatist. I don’t wish harm to befall anyone but wishing things were better is just that “wishing and hopeful thinking”. Nice thoughts, but doesn’t accomplish anything. As a pragmatist I am interested in ‘what works’.
If a ban works for Russia, fine; if it doesn’t again I say, fine. Nice try Russia, but no cigar. In conclusion to this fine article with logical proofs Covert Fade; I say “not my cause célèbre ,nor my responsibility or my problem”.
Big B
Doing anything that makes Witnesses feel more persecuted is entirely self-defeating. All it will do is convince them that the “great tribulation” is finally here and Armageddon is just around the corner…. again!
I think the best way to fight this insidious, evil organization is to reprint their own literature complete with contradictions and lies and put it in front of their faces. Ridicule and reason are our best weapons to destroy this religion. And the best doubt-sowing question to ask any Witness you pass by on the street is: “What will you do when the 1914 overlapping generation passes away and there is still no sign of Armageddon?”
@John,
The overlapping generation should pass away at the latest by around 2070, somewhere near the year Isaac Newton said the end should come. By that time few of us will be around.
However, I am sure an overlapping of the overlapping generation will then be proposed. It will be called the overlapping overlapping generation. That should be pretty safe for another hundred years. No doubt you know what the next revision will be called. Yes, the overlapping overlapping overlapping generation. In the year 2270 there will be a need for a further revision.
Ricardo
Overlapping the overlapping generation will be too stupid for the society to use. I gave you a better idea. All they need to do is keep the overlapping generation theory in tact and apply the starting date 1948 which is when the Jews were regathered in Jerusalem. That will harmonize with Christ words in Luke 21 where he states they would be dispersed among the gentile nations but regathered after the appointed time of the nations is completed. That’s WT’s most logical approach to presenting new light if no trib comes by 2070.
In his explanation of overlapping generation Splane touched on something better. Just claim that in addition to what WT has taught is the sign of the last days there is something else. What else did Splane refer to but the tribulation.
The question that was put to Christ which he answered was, “What will be the sign of your presence?” He spoke of the a tribulation coming before he comes. There the WT could claim the tribulation is part of the sign. That would let them preach forever, without being accountable for a world end date, just like Christendom does. Daaa I think those at WT are smart enough to think these things up. They will not let themselves be trapped and go down because of a date.
Not proofing this buddy. No longer in college, and I don’t like proofing.
The Governing Body is now avoiding the term “overlapping generations.” When David Splane explaned this nonsensical new light, he referred to the current Governing Body members as “contemporaries” of the generation of anointed Bible Students who were baptized into “the truth” before Christ’s invisible return in 1914.
Splane claimed that this first generation of Watchtower leaders recognized the sign of Christ’s presence and that a new crop of Watchtower leaders, who were anointed before the first generation died off, would be part of the generation that would see the start of the Great Tribulation.
Of course, 8 and 9 year old Witness children will need to understand this complicated generation doctrine before they are baptized at the next assembly. A Caleb and Sophia cartoon focusing on this extended piggyback generation would be a big help.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/david-splane-explains-the-overlapping-generation-teaching-without-actually-explaining-it
You know about the OTHER JWs? The religious groups which branched off from JWs after loosing contact with the main branch, and didn’t want to merge back once they regained contact? Maybe, only maybe, that will happen in Russia too, which would be a good thing
@Matias,
I have never heard of this group. Do you have more information?
Tim Martin on Youtube has brilliant videos including one regarding the Millerites, the beginnings of the JW’s and the many splinter groups from that. It’s a real eye opener.
Hi Ricardo, the particular video I remember is called Adventism: Roots Shoots and Those in Cahoots.
One of the Watchtower splinter groups is the International Bible Students Association. They have a lot of interesting memorabilia from Pastor Russell’s time, including The Photo Drama of Creation and The Divine Plan of the Ages.
This group says the last days began in 1914, but they start the last generation with the restoration of Israel in 1948.
http://www.internationalbiblestudents.com/index.html
@ScottWM. Russell and even Rutherford ( for a while ) taught that the literal Jews would return to Palestine. Russell believed it until he died. Not sure when JF Changed it or said it only “Applied” to spiritual Israel. Then they came up with some cockamamie teaching that it applied to the JW’s being gathered to spiritual Israel or something Stupid like that. Funny thins is I ALWAYS point out that not ONE prophecy the WT or JW’s ever predicted has come true. NOT ONE out of the thousands of things they said except the teaching that Russell said the Jews would return to Palestine and then Rutherford and the WT said it was not a fulfillment of propecy
Hi Covert Fade I think you make sound arguments. At first I was all for banning them but on reflection this would martyr them not destroy them because as you said it does nor stop belief just because a ban has been imposed. In fact all the scaremongering amongst the rank and file adds to this persecution complex. What I think is interesting in the panning out of the organisation’s demise is not the false teaching , whacky doctrine or lying interpretation of the Bible. The things you honed in on are secular opinion dressed up as religion. If any sound minded JW were asked to go up personaly on a stand in court and defend these three beliefs without the support of elders or literature just the bible, I think the majority would fail to make a plausible argument of a defence of their faith. In a way just to get an indoctrinated witness to analyse these three beliefs that are set in stone would actually make them understand for themselves why they personally uphold such a staunch system. If such an argument was made personal not collective ie if you as an individual hide a child rapist and kept silent no answering to elders or Brooklyn what would you do? and make each one who signs up to this religion from now onwards personally responsible for upholding human rights after they have had a lesson inn human rights. Ignorance is no excuse of the law but information should be at core central teaching It may just make some think before they don’t act. I think every door to door evangeliser needs to think seriously about what they are actually promoting for themselves, not slick speech of kingdom interests or witnessing but what kind of people they crave to convert and recruit. If every person is held accountable for the people they proselytize including their own offspring they may think twice about recruitment because if such an individual was responsible for bringing in a bad apple they may spoil the whole barrel. Ruthlee. ive got lots more to say but this is your article and very well written it is. Cheers
Hi Covert.
I can understand your points of view on these matters to a point. They are valid because it’s only a handful of countries that ban.
Hypothetically speaking,say more stronger countries like the uk and u.s.a United in the ban too.It would stop their assets and take away their heart,their engine,they would find it impossible to function.
In this day and age the younger generation of jws would give up,they are no more die hards.Its even a job trying to get them out in the ministry.
So I kind of agree with your points,but if Bans were made on a greater scale the watchtower would crumble. Do you agree?
Hi Mark.
The problem is, can you explain how the key problems I outlined in my article above suddenly go away if the ban is extended from 100,000 people in Russia to include 8 million people worldwide? Including the human rights risk of what happens when Governments get the power and the will to start banning faith?
This apostate bemoans the fact that as an apostate he is being shunned. What a farce!!
If the Witnesses had continued try and communicate with him and to try and encourage him, He would be the first to complain about the Witnesses acting like a CULT.
He says in his BBC interview that he left the organisation because their beliefs are false,yet he never ever spends time disproving their beliefs based on the Bible. All beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses are based on the Bible i.e.
President Trump, today says ;
“Tonight I call on all civilised nations in seeking to end the slaughter and bloodshed in Syria and also to end terrorism of all kinds and all types.
We ask for God’s wisdom as we face the challenge of our very troubled world. We pray for the lives of the wounded and the souls of those who have passed.
And we hope that as long as America stands for justice, peace and harmony will prevail. Good night and God bless America and the entire world”
According to Bible prophecy when the nations of this system feel confident they will proclaim Peace and Security, but it will be just a veneer. 1 Thessalonians 5 vs 3 states “Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape
This “suddenness” will be according to the Bible prophecy concerning the beast that the harlot rides pictures the world’s political powers.* (Revelation 17:10-13) False religion straddles the back of this political beast, attempting to influence its decisions and to control its direction.
Soon, though, an amazing event will take place. “The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.” (Revelation 17:16) In a sudden, shocking move, the world’s political powers will turn on false religion and completely destroy her! What will prompt this action?
The Bible book of Revelation answers: “God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought.” (Revelation 17:17) Yes, God will call false religion to account for all the despicable acts she has committed in his name. In a stroke of perfect justice, he will use her political paramours as his instrument of execution.
I urge you to take note of President Trump’s speech above, it’s a continuation of a series of prophesied events leading the USA and Britain ( Anglo American World Power) to give more and more teeth and power to the Worlds Political powers under the “umbrella” of the UN, who will soon act for Jehovah God.
@Silas,
You have been a busy man today, that’s the fourth time you have posted basically the same thing. Can I ask why?
Because like most JW’s and even those of us who used to be, they/we used a cookie cutter answer. We are trained, nay brainwashed into giving the best answer that the Borg. can simulate in our minds. We are Borg.
The Star Trek quote comes to my mind here:
“We are Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.”
Silas wants us to accept that there is some biblical import to President Trumps speech. Like so many other JW expectations, it will come to nothing. And then what will Silas do? Will he post on this site that he made an error? More likely than not, he will slink back into the shadows and wait until there is some other event to peak expectations, much like his Watchtower masters do. It’s a vicious cycle.
WS
Silas,
In the small amount of time (4 min. approx ) that Lloyd Evans had with the BBC he had no time to do what you suggest. Neither was it the purpose or remit of the interview.
However you will find that Lloyd has devoted years to doing exactly what you request in countless articles on this website, countless videos on his John Cedars YouTube chanel as well as writing a 800 page book on the very subject.
Can I suggest you read and view all of the proof that you so seek and then get back to us.
I can suggest you do this.
But we all know….. You Won’t
@ Keefus:
Why bother to enlighten himself when he can bite and retreat back under the rock of stupidity which is the WBTS?
Silas has not bothered to check out the U.N. site which shows Watchtower involvement and like you said, “Can I suggest you read and view all of the proof that you so seek and then get back to us.
I can suggest you do this.
But we all know….. You Won’t”.
Silas is not to be pitied, why? He has made the conscience choice to close off his mind. He, like so many sheeple, has left ‘ignorant town’ and is fast approaching ‘stupid city’ on the one way WTBTS express. Will he get off before it reaches its destination? Heck no, he’s enjoying the trip.
Interestingly people are using the world events such as what’s happening in Syria right now and the “maybe” ban of JWs in Russia to say the GT is about to happen…but according to the scriptures Jesus said it would come as a thief in the night, nobody would even realize what was happening, certainly not like what’s going on at the moment. Everyone is waiting abated breath for the moment to hit. But again, according to the Bible it will happen at a time you least expect it. So, go back to bed it’s not just yet.
@silas
I remember well when I used to teach my bible students about false religion. I asked them, “if a religion teaches 99 truths and 1 falsehood what does that make it”?
And they would have to reply, “a false religion”.
Once a religion teaches 1 lie, that 1 lie makes it a liar. Period.
“Don’t lie to people who trust you, and never trust people who lie to you”. Sobering thought to ponder.
Shalom
Shibboleth,
You say that you have taught the Bible to students. “Bible Students” you say.
Jehovahs Witnesses use to celebrate Christmas, Birthdays, Easter, Halloween.
They use to teach many other what are now considered false doctrines.
They use believe that it was ok to vote. They use to believe that it was ok to participate in warfare. They subsequently believed that they could not actually take up arms, but it was ok be part of medical corps etc in warfare. In an old black and white picture of one of their assemblies there were big American flags on display at the front of the auditorium. They use to believe that it was ok to smoke tobacco.
Point being is that You are wrong.
Jehovahs Witnesses have taught many false doctrines. You will also no doubt point to certain dates that you and your fellow disgruntled associates on this site attribute to the Witnesses to show they have made wrong predictions.
So you are wrong, there is a much longer list to show that the Witnesses have in a way taught numerous false teachings not just one.
However now that we are so near to the end of this system Jehovah God has ensured thwart Bible Truth has been made clearer and no other religion teaches Bible Truth but Jehovahs Witnesses.
Let me apply your 99 riddle to the Bible.
One of the most outstanding features if the Bible is its 100 percent prophecy rate.
So for arguments sake let’s say there are 1000 prophecies in the Bible and 995 have come true, then what would you say the chances of the other 5 have of coming true.?
Silas,
As a Jehovah’s Witness, everything is explained and understood from the standpoint that the society is God’ organization. If you were asked, ‘how do you
know the society is God’s organization?’,
you would probably answer, God appointed
it as such.
The governing body teaches that Jesus
returned in 1914 to begin his invisible presence. Then in 1918 he began to make an examination of all religions claiming to
represent him. The only religion faithfully and discreetly providing true teachings of the Bible was the Watchtower Society.
Jesus appointed them over all his belongings in the spring of 1919.
If you have no problem accepting the above,
could you ask yourself why would Jesus
approve a religion that was practising the
false doctrines that you have listed in your
post. All these are disfellowshipping offences today, and you say there is a much
longer list.
Best wishes for your knee operation,
Jennifer
Jennifer are you aware of the pyramid of Giza teaching accepted by WT until 1928, nine years after 1919? Christ would have had to single out WT as his sole spokes group while it was teaching that falsehood, if WT’s claim is accurate.
Logically impossible. WT claims it was singled out for preaching the truth, more truth than other Christians. Correlating an Egyptian pyramid’s interior corridor measurements with Bible scriptures and prophesies, and claiming that pyramid is a witness for God like the Bible, is about as far as one can get from teaching scriptural truth. How then could Christ have chosen WT for teaching more truth than other Christian groups? Did all the other Christians teach the pyramid falsehood and worse?
Hi Jennifer,
I suggest you do your own research on all the previous beliefs of the Witnesses.
Charles Taze Russell and his associates were members of a Christian religion as I’m sure you are aware.
They engaged in deep study of the Bible. There was not a great big enormous flash of light that exposed ALL the teachings of so called Christian religions back then as false. Through their gradual study of the Bible, it became clear that an immortal soul, hellfire, trinity, and other teachings of so called Christendom were false. Jehovah shed light gradually on his word the Bible.
Why not do research on how much of the clergy agreed with their study conclusions regarding the end of the gentile times.
Why not do your research on their study conclusions regarding 1914.
Many, many years prior to 1914
it was clear to them how much of a pivotal year it was going to be and many clergy agreed.
Can you honestly say that there is another religion in the World that teaches the truth about Jehovah God and his son Jesus.
If so, then who?
What other religion in the world even has the respect to address God by his personal name, Jehovah. How would you like it if your associates only ever referred to you by your title of Ms or Mrs.
I heard some time ago that the Catholics are replacing the name Jehovah into their online version of the Bible.
I went online to try and view it as I was surprised at this news.
All I was faced with was “in your face” adverts. Buy this, but that, idols of Mary, Crosses, Beads etc etc.
I have not made a contribution in the boxes at the back of our hall for coming up to a year now.
No bolt of lightening yet though.
No reprimand
No one forcing me to.
Obviously Jehovah knows my circumstances.
But no one in the congregation knows I haven’t made a contribution.
So my point about the sheer unashamed blatant greed of False Religion out there, Really !!! This from the so called bride of Christ.
Do you know how Charles Taze Russell financed the work?
It’s all voluntary.
No other Religious Organization in the World could possibly exist and function the way Jehovahs does on voluntary donations.
It is a modern day miracle.
True knowledge of the Bible has only been made available through Jehovah and he is using his people alone to preach about the Kingdom.
Do you see any other religion obeying Matthew 24:14 and doing the preaching work on a worldwide scale in hundreds and hundreds of languages and Dialicts?
Perhaps you’d care to prove otherwise with facts?
I’ve always brought the following scripture to fellow believers attention, but they always ignore me…Matthew 25:31-33
“When the Son of Man ARRIVES in his glory, THEN he will sit down on his glorious throne…and he will separate people just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Wt has stated that the separating work will be done at a future time period, so wouldn’t that mean Christ has not arrived nor is sitting on his throne yet? Also connected to that…if Christ and his co-rulers are in heaven, what are they doing? Ruling? Then the 1,000 yr reign has begun? I mean I never heard of a trial run for the reigning of Christ before the 1,000yr reign!
oh well, that’s my 2 cents for now.
Shalom
And to add to that, 1 Corinthians 11:26 states perfectly:
“For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death UNTIL HE COMES (emphasis added). So, if the WTS said Jesus came an is here “invisibly” (which is very convenient by the way), then why is there still a memorial? He’s here; invisibly or not, so the memorial is a very erroneous error in their teaching with all the inaccuracies.
Also that point in your scripture states that sheep and goats are not separated until Christ comes and sends his angels to do that. Most Christian churches believe that, so those others don’t teach they have the exclusive truth. Rather they believe Christ is not so narrow minded to kill people because they didn’t understand ambiguous teachings, like the ones he taught about hell fire.
HOW FAIR would Christ be to kill people simply because they didn’t correctly interpret all his parables. Is following Christ, following Christ, or is it knowing the exact meaning of the rich man and Lazarus parable?
Witnesses, what if God wrote some things in the Bible unclearly to see how you would react to them? Maybe he wants to know if you condemn your brothers merely for having opposing views about some ambiguous teachings that are not critical for people to understand in order to be God’s friends.
Shibboleh,
If a religion teaches something that is false, not true, that does not mean it was lying. A lie is a false statement meant to deceive. No religion claims to fully interpret all Bible scriptures with 100% accuracy. None I’m aware of. It’s best if they admit that to the parts they are not sure about.
No where in the Bible though are people given authority by Christ or his father to teach false dates concerning God’s actions. And perhaps more reprehensible in God’s eyes, not mine, is to demand that God’s followers live according to their rules and dictates, not rules imposed on them by their governments, but by their churches in God’s name, rules that neither God nor Christ imposed on their followers. That’s what the religion did in Christ day that he opposed. Those were the men Christ condemned when he was human. And he said on judgment day the people of Sodom would stand a better chance.
Silas
You quoted a lot of scriptures after making a comment that someone did not take any time to prove WT’s Bible teachings are incorrect. You quoting scriptures, and commenting on those did not make your point. It actually skates the issue. Is it that you cannot prove your claim Silas?
Here Silas, I’ll give you an opportunity to prove from the scriptures that WT does not teach its members must follow its teachings that are not demanded prohibitions upon Christians by God through scripture. Prove WT’s teachings are Bible based, and that those are not putting a hedge around real Bible based restrictions, like the Pharisees did in Christ’s day.
Show us conclusively where the scriptures prohibit a Christian from voting and serving in positions of governmental authority. Please concentrate on the prohibition given by WT against voting. But also include why God established many of his ancient servants in positions of governmental authority both inside the ancient Jewish nation and inside pagan nations, such as Daniel and Joseph. And prove by scripture that a Christian is prohibited from serving in a governmental capacity.
If you cannot present a successful argument defending these points, then you are not able to successfully defend your religious organization WT from appearing to be a mirror of Pharisaical practice on this public forum. Remember Christ claimed his enemies put a fence around God’s commands. They may have done so with good intention, as WT may have. Nevertheless they were the only group that Christ condemned because of those actions, calling them followers of Satan.
Hi Messenger,
I’m not to clear on what you are saying in your second paragraph queries. What particular Bible teachings are you referring to.
Before I answer your question on voting, can you please tell me whether you vote and what good you believe your voting has accomplished and what you believe that your vote will accomplish in the future.
You see the point is why not apply Shibboleths “99” illustration on religion to politics as well.
If political parties tell you 99 truths and 1 lie, then should they be referred to as a false political party. In my experience political parties are more likely to speak 1 truth and 99 Lies.
There are numerous scriptures that refer to who the ruler of this World really is. All governments are puppets of the ruler of this world, who I’m sure you know who that is.
There are numerous scriptures where Jesus states that his Kingdom is no part of this World and that his people should be no part of this Worlds political affairs.
On jw.org go to top menu publications, then online library, then in the search box type in Voting. I don’t need to present a successful argument when it’s all there for the whole World to see if they want.
Now perhaps you would like to explain to me and the others on this site why you believe Christians should vote. Kindly show us scriptures to back up your point that Christians should vote.
Do you really believe that the early Christians like Apostle John, Apostle Peter,
Matthew, Paul, Mark Timothy etc etc after associating with Jesus and writing down his words of warning about the World would of participated in the governmental affairs of the Romans and also the Jewish Rulers.
The Romans who put Jesus to death. The Jews who plotted his death and conspired to have him put to death. Do you really believe the early Christians would of sought governmental positions with Governmental authorities that were persecuting them, conspiring to have them put to death in the arenas, attempting to get them to compromise their faith and putting them to death where they failed in that respect etc etc
These were Governments that were attempting to obliterate them etc etc
How about Emperor Nero, do you think many Christians aspired to work for him.
You are better of doing your own research on your questions Messenger, and I would advise you to start at the book of Genesis which will answer your point about Joseph.
Silas,
Thank you for your respectful response. I want you to know that I consider you a Christian brother, as I have seen nothing to prove otherwise, and Paul wrote love believes all things. I’ll go to where you suggested and see if any conclusive evidence exists. Though I’ve read the whole Bible, and I have never seen any conclusive scriptural proof which prohibits voting and serving in politics. Nevertheless I’ll look at what you suggested.
It’s not my opinion that Christians either should or should not vote. I believe scripturally Christians have the freedom to do either. I haven’t personally voted since I became a JW over 40 years ago. My opinion is, and its a strong one because it’s shared by Christ, that no Christian should make demands on other people and other Christians that Christ being their judge does not make. Not voting is just one unscriptural restriction I see WT imposing on God’s followers.
Referring to the world is not referring to voting. Everything around us is the world, it’s not segmented and isolated into just certain institution that effect us. Plus I believe you referred to Romans. Isn’t that the book Paul stated that superior authorities are set in their positions by God? God does not change. He would not have supported kings like David, and put other politicians like Joseph and Daniel in their respective positions if he was against his people participating in politics, just because it is a different time period, with perhaps different world conditions. Neither would God change his position on those matters because Christ came. God does not change.
Another teaching which scriptures don’t tell Christians to abstain from is celebrate birthdays. As a matter of fact it appears Job’s sons had a practice of celebrating their birthdays with their sisters, listed at Job 1:4. WT is against the practice stating only God should receive that type of honor, yet scriptures state to honor your mother and father that is will go well with you. And honoring someone on a birthday certainly is not idolatry, anymore than celebrating a wedding day or anniversary. And Christ attended those. The reason given that someone was harmed on a birthday is silly. Someone is harmed everyday of the year, and has been almost from humanity’s beginning.
Again, the world is all around us. Even WT admits this, and that is one reason it speaks against higher education. I’m an educator by trade. I work in the world, just as much as a politician does, just as every man and woman who earns a living does.
Biblically the world is described as people possessing certain characteristics that are in opposition to God and his purposes. Those characteristics are present where I work. I get lied to every day. So the fact that politicians lie does not single out their positions and jobs as being exclusively the world, as there are no other parts. My students lie more than politicians. Many JWs have lied to me, and some are currently doing that to me attempting to steal for their own selfish gain. That’s what the scriptures say we are to be no part of.
I believe I’ll see you in the new world Silas. Your faith being strong enough to put up with attacks on this site shows Christ you believe in him, and accept him as your savior. I’m not asking you accept my view Silas. I know JW’s that don’t will gain life. I’ve seen it. Regardless of what I see on the JW Org. site, and what I believe about it, I will not contact you regarding this subject, or judge your other beliefs. Maybe I’ll just say hello every now and then if I see you here.
I don’t think these guys here will wear you down, you appear to be too strong for that. But they’ll try. They tried it on me. Take care brother. Christ loves you, Jehovah loves you, and messenger loves you.
messenger
We’re just letting you be, messenger. If we wanted,we could have you backed into so many corners.
Just a thought though…if the universe is endless, that means that anything is possible, even God.
@outandabout,
Just because the universe is endless doesn’t mean anything is possible. For example, I don’t believe you will find a purple giraffe with twenty legs anywhere. Not that I can prove that.
Just to throw a loose one into the mix: Newton’s law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. Thus, energy has always been here. Give that energy a personality and you have God. If energy has always been here, if it is impossible to get something from nothing, why can’t God always have been here?
So funny outandabout. You know you lost our last debate. As a matter of fact you admitted it. I’m not trying to hurt your feelings, just stating facts not fiction. And, no one here could do what you suggest and beat me in a debate. If I choose to debate I have ALL angles covered before it starts. Just as I did in your debate, and in dee 2’s debate. You lost before it started. I don’t debate unless the answer is obvious.
I don’t claim to know everything, and you’ve read I’ve admitted to that more than a couple times. But if I challenge an idea, the truth is easy to prove, and I already understand the other sides reasoning.
You guys here are use to patting each other on the poo poo with congratulatory remarks. Accolades mean nothing to me. I use to receive those on a daily basis. Those didn’t mean anything then, and those don’t mean anything now. I’m only here to represent Christ and his father, that’s all. And like Silas, I’m here to keep some of the stink you guys throw down in check.
But it’s always nice talking with you outandabout. Here’s a tip to help you debate. Debate facts, not feelings and your opinions. No one cares about how you feel about God but you and God. There is no significant reason to state that feeling as one pillar to your central argument in a debate. Actually it hurts your argument, because you admit its motivated by hate. Not a good debating tactic outandabout. You’re not Donald Trump. He could pull that off. You can’t.
Best wishes outandabout. And no joke now, I hope to see you in the new world. I hope we all get there.
Ricardo,
FYI, Newtonian mechanics do not hold up at the quantum scale.
WS
@messenger,
I find your statements quite arrogant. Because outandabout chooses not to debate, that does not mean he lost the debate. Debates of such as the ones you refer to are pointless wastes of effort. We spent the better part of our lives on pointless debates when we were JWs and have better things to do than waste anymore time doing so here on this site.
As I have said before, such debates detract from the purpose of this site, that being to expose the practices of a dangerous cult and to help members wake up from undue influence.
WS
@WS,
Newtonian physics must apply to the universe etc, though, explaining how stars create light, etc, and how matter comes about through energy. Obviously E=mc2 applies to the universe.
Even in quantum science, do you mean to say energy can be created and destroyed? I doubt it. If things can be created from nothing in quantum science then we have found something incredible.
Ricardo,
I don’t claim to be a student of quantum physics. My university degrees do happen to include Newtonian Mechanics and as such I know the limits of the models suggested by Newton. For example, one of Newton’s famous laws of motion, F=ma (force equals mass times acceleration) does not hold up in the realm of particle physics. This is because Newtonian Physics only work with relatively large masses and velocities that are well below the speed of light. In particle and quantum physics, you must introduce additional constants in order to find the values traditionally found by Newtonian methods.
The purpose of my comment was not to argue for energy being able to be created or destroyed, but to point out that the premise of your argument was based on science that was not applicable to the argument you were making. Simply quoting something said by a scientist does not make an argument viable unless the quote is specific to the argument at hand. Watchtower loves to quote mine from scientists to try to prove their arguments, but when you investigate the background, you find the connection is often very weak. It’s a matter of practicing rational thinking, something Watchtower has tried to suppress in all of us.
If you want to be able to speak about the nature of the universe based on the most up-to-date scientific understanding, I’d recommend a few books including: A Brief History in Time by Hawking, God and the New Physics by Paul Davies (who Watchtower used to love to quote), and Is God a Mathematician by Mario Livio.
To your point, I believe the current understanding by modern cosmology is that all the energy released at the creation of our universe is still here and has neither been created or destroyed since that time. Beyond this universe? Who knows.
WS
@Winston,
What about the purple giraffe? You didn’t mention whether you thought there might be one out in the universe somewhere.
@Ricardo
As for a purple giraffe with 20 legs existing somewhere in the universe, we cannot discount the possibility. If somewhere on a planet that can sustain life, the conditions were such that being purple and having 20 legs were advantageous to natural selection then we could expect something to evolve that way.
But we also have no evidence that one exists and therefore little reason to believe in one. That does not mean that we could not choose to believe in one and if we wanted to, we are within our right to do so and should not be criticized or condemned for doing so. However there is no way to prove that the purple giraffe exists at this point in time, so arguing for or against it is a pointless and futile endeavor.
It is somewhat like believing in a creator, something which I choose to do. I cannot prove to someone who does not believe that one exists nor do I have any solid evidence. It’s based on a feeling that is typically described as faith. Maybe someday there will be solid evidence one way or the other, but not at this time.
At various points in their lives an atheist may suddenly may suddenly decide to believe in God. And likewise, at some point believers may turn to atheism. Most often is based on personal experience, not someone trying to reason with them on the existence of God or the lack thereof, since logical, scientific evidence does not exist to support either side.
WS
Apologies for the typos in that last paragraph above. A fully indoctrinated JDub was interrupting me while I was trying to type it. Plus, in general, I find it more difficult to get things grammatically correct when using a smart phone.
WS
@WS,
That didn’t start so well but I like the way it ended.
So quantum physics, in fact no physics that we know of, teaches us that we can get something from nothing. And modern cosmology believes that all the energy that was around at the start of the universe is still here. So how did everything get here?
Was there a big bang? If so, what went bang? Was it some cosmic dust? Where did the dust come from? If there was dust and energy, we are halfway there. Energy cannot be created, not that we know of. And dust cannot come from nothing. So there must have always been something.
And so, we just have to work out in our opinions whether there has been enough proof of wisdom displayed in the universe to warrant belief in a celestial being, the wisdom behind the way the energy and dust have resulted.
This is a much easier task than looking for proof of purple giraffes with twenty legs.
Is there proof of design around us? Of higher wisdom? These are things we can observe with our eyes and with the use of our intellect. It is not a philisophical question as the existence of the purple giraffe was, or whether there is something outside of our universe.
It is a simple question: Is there design and wisdom shown in nature, the result of the energy and dust the universe started with?
For you, maybe there is. For me, there is. I am interested to know from outandabout et al whether there is for them, and if not, why not. I am not being confrontational. I genuinely cannot understand why someone would think there is not enough proof of wisdom and design in the universe to warrant belief in God. We can agree to disagree.
Silas Thompson. You and the Watchtower are like Chicken Little when an acorn dropped on his head and he thought that the sky was falling. He ran around the farmyard in a deluded panic to warn all the animals that the end was nigh. He was causing a frenzy in the farmyard because of his insistence and deep but misguided belief. Nothing untoward happened in the farmyard. We only have to read past Watchtower literature to find similarities to the Chicken Little story. 1914, 1925, 1975, The Revelation Book for example, all based on Watchtower interpretation of scripture. Now you are doing the same with your latest message of doom. Watchtower Organisation is a doomsday cult designed to gain popularity by spreading paranoia, and then gives a solution to that paranoia by offering a promise of paradise if one gets baptised into the Organisation, thus becoming a tool for the Governing Body who demand total loyalty and obedience.
JW Broadcasting keeps stressing the importance of loyalty and obedience to the Faithful and Discreet Slave. This takes top priority in the teachings of the Organisation. No JW can be loyal and obedient to Jehovah without giving loyalty and obedience to the FDS. But who is the FDS? Since 2012, it is claimed that the Governing Body collectively is the FDS. Before this, the FDS was the 144,000 (or remnant still living on Earth) and the GB were their representatives only. Now we are told that the 144,000 are, and always have been, domestics only; they never were the FDS. So, who was the FDS between 1919 and 2012? Judge Rutherford, Nathan Knorr, Freddy Franz and the GB before 2012 said that the FDS was the 144,000. We now know that their identifying of the FDS was not true according to the words of the current GB. When I put this to JW’s on the streets and to two JW Elders that I know, they dance around the subject. They cannot identify the FDS between 1919 and 2012 and quickly try to avoid my question by moving on to other topics. Since 2012, the current GB have claimed this authority of being the FDS for themselves without any Biblical proof. The Governing Body didn’t even exist until 1976. So, Silas Thompson, who do you identify the FDS to have been between 1919 and 2012?
Basically I’m in favor of freedom of religion. And I agree with the point you make: banning Watchtower will not end their harmful practices.
But I do feel that you missed one vital point: the protection of the general public. Banning the JW will make preaching in Russia a lot harder that it already is. So a ban will prevent that the religion makes new victims.
No I don’t believe it will. It will instill a sympathy for them. The world wide Org. will bleat like lambs being led to the slaughter and others will want to see what the cacophony is about and that will encourage them to pick up the literature… very dangerous. Remember we were told… get it into their hands. I remember being trained to hold the mags out and as soon as the reflex to take hold of it happens, withdraw your hand. Bam, literature is in their hands and will possibly be read. Even if it’s not it’s a placement and looks good on the report.
I’m not a WT defender, but the people teaching you to place literature according to your professed method were definitely teaching you against WT policy. I’ve read multiple times that WT wants literature placed with people that give some indication they will read it. They do not want their literature place indiscriminately.
A long time ago we use to place old literature at not ay homes. Back then we were not advised to use older lit like were are advised to use it now. That’s why dates are no longer included. Personally I don’t place their lit, but I know their policy on it. Even a long time ago, when placing lit, we were always advised to place when there was interest. True, someone reaching for it shows interest, but the reason given to suddenly withdraw your hold on it suggests you as a placer didn’t consider if they were truly interested or not. You had bad teachers from a WT policy standpoint.
I hit couple wrong keys, but you get the points.
Lol I totally agree. Back then the cong. wanted the literature placements up. Anything went.
I believe that tracts found on the ground and in rubbish tips have brought more people into the truth than I have of late. So I suggest leaving the literature on the ground or throwing it in the rubbish for better preaching results.
@ Michel,this is a very good point.What is the lesser
evil,protecting the jws or continued new victims.At least we could say the jws will die off,sounds cold hearted,but I’m for protecting the public.
I’m in agreement with Michal. We all left this cult. There are many unsuspecting people who are contacted daily by JWs, trying to persuade them that being JW is the only means of Salvation. Why are we so hell bent on trying to preserve the status quo? Why the hell waste so much emotional energy and so much mental occupation with trying to convince ourselves that JWs should not be allowed to die off? I know that the article writer is pretty determined to make his point, that we all should protect freedom of religion. Why exactly? The writers idea of taxing the churches is a good one, but far from realistic right now. Why not continue trying to educate any we come in contact with about the policies of JWs that are harmful. Why should we all be onboard with fighting a ban? This well written article pushes too hard. We do not all agree. To do a point by point commentary is a waste of time, as a form of rebuttal.
We can disagree, we can agree. We all know one thing…being a JW is bad for your health. Aloha
@Mike,
Smoking is bad for the health, but still people want to smoke, even though they know all the risks. Same with getting drunk.
Think of the Witnesses like these two bad habits. There are harmful aspects to the Witnesses’ beliefs. However, some people will still want to be a Witness nonetheless. So, let them be Witnesses, but expose the flaws and educate society about the risks.
I like your point Ricardo. Allowing the government to ban matters of personal choice gives them too much control over our lives and easily leads to a totalitarian society. Education is key.
WS
Totally agree. Banning them protects the impressionable members of the public from being roped in.
I find that most JWs are a lost cause. As a whole I think the Russian government have every right to ban this extremist cult.
Freedom of religion should be lost when you start harming people.
100% agree with Infernal. Thanks
I also agree with Infernal. It’s what I’ve been saying – protect the public, to hell with the indoctrinated, they’ve made their choice.
I would like to see a ban in Russia only, and lets see what happens. My inner Rommel says a ban is a better strategy. The hornets nest needs stirring. Public debate needs to happen. Bring the ridiculousness to a head. Bring on the Tribulation and lets watch Jesus remain invisible. Lets watch nothing supernatural happen. Perhaps that’s why WT don’t want a ban….they know they will be forced to declare the Tribulation, nothing will happen and they will look like bigger dorks than they do now, if that’s at all possible.
Thanks CF. Very black and white. Now how about we all send this to Mr Putin and let him look at the ban in another light.
Covert Fade, two comments on this:
a) Banned religion. You say “Well, JW’s now know that if they go to hospital and refuse blood, they have instantly identified themselves as part of a banned religion. Remember, membership of a banned religion is illegal.”
‘Banned religion’ means that there will be no legal entity for JW in Russia. It does not mean that if police learns somebody is a JW, they will imprison him / her. They will have problems when they will try to spread literature that is on the list of extremist literature, they will not be able to organize a convention, … I am not saying it is an easy life, but it is not so horrible. I lived under a ban 1/3 of my life. I expect the biggest threat to the JW would be compulsory military service in the RF, regardless of whether they are banned or not. There is possibility too, the organization will try to provoke Russian authorities to more harsh treatment of the JW and capitalize that persecution in the West.
b) “Ban will not stop them.” I would doubt this. Actually ban and persecution stop the JW very well. In Communist USSR or China or Arab countries, JW were not growing at the same pace as in the Western world. It does not mean the ban is a good thing (I am for religious freedom), but still, it is an effective measure.
Personally I do not understand why Russians ban the JW now when they reached their zenith. Even without ban they will only lose number in Russia. I think it is mainly due to ‘American flavor’ of that religion…
Insightful points except your last one. What made you claim JW are at their zenith in Russia? And why do you feel WT’s American flavor will contribute to WT’s decline in Russia? WT obviously grew having that “flavor.”
Two JW elders under scrutiny by ARC stated categorically that the two witness rule would NOT be changed, which is sickening because there is absolutely no doubt many more children will suffer terrible sexual trauma by this perverted cult. One more case of sexual abuse is another too many to tolerate, or do you concede that’s just a price to pay for protecting their religion, allowing them freedom of worship to protect pedophiles, terrorize people by shunning and taking away their choice of accepting blood? Make no mistake about it, this religion is evil in the extreme, pretending to masquerade as Christians, when they are anything but. The Russians are 100% correct in calling this cult extremist. The Russians are not dummies; it’s the rest of the world that is for tolerating this abusive, intransigent sect that rides over the human rights of individuals all over the world, causing grief, stress, depression and suicide to many of their followers. I have no sympathy for their GB that will beat their drums of religious intolerance, using it as fresh propaganda, just like they did in Malawi decades ago, but they kept it secret from their followers that they actually caused the problem, bringing about the deaths of many Africans in that country. So I have not the slightest sympathy that they have been banned in Russia. Pedophile protection is totally unacceptable, as is shunning – and judicial committees without allowing legal representation is another area to consider as blatantly wrong. I for one applaud the Russian stance.
@milo,
The problems in the organization which you have brought out are valid points, and need to be exposed. No doubt you have no sympathy for this organization. But think about the ban. Will it be effective in changing the problems?
Now look at the results of the ARC. For the first time the Witnesses have instructed members they can inform the police if they hear about any abuse: Point 6 of the Child Protection Document: “Any congregation member who learns of child abuse may choose to report the matter to the secular authorities.”
Maybe it’s not much, but it has come about by examination of the organization by the government. With more and more examination and exposure, more changes may be possible, or at least the general population will be informed about what goes on in the congregations. Some of the worst practices which we see now will be corrected.
Is not bringing out the shameful practices into clear daylight (as time goes by, and with the internet, this must happen) beneficial? This is hard to do when the religion is covered with a ban.
The only countries to have successfully gotten rid of all Witnesses (North Korea, Afghanistan and Somalia, and nearly Albania) are not the greatest places to be living in. But informing the general population about what takes place allows Watchtower the opportunity to fix some things up, and if people want to join then they know what they are joining.
@ milo butler
Two elders don’t set WT policies, nor do two governing body members. Policies are set through votes by the whole GB. The Witnesses are posturing for their best outcome when before officials who cannot, at the time, make demands on them. When enough pressure is put on the WT the governing body members will comply. WT has already agreed to comply with mandatory reporting laws.
Mandatory reporting laws make all reasonable suspicions of child abuse or neglect SUSPICIONS that must be reported by anyone who is aware of them and is a mandated reported. Jail time and fines are penalties for not doing so. If WT advises elders not to report under those circumstances WT advisors and the corporation will also be guilty of breaking the mandated reporting law. It will not make any sense for WT to apply a two witness rule under these circumstances which is breaking the law. And WT is on the record as agreeing to comply with such laws.
WT has volleyed the ball to the other side, the governments.
I thought I would share a link to JW’s extremist literature. You will need Google Translate:
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_публикаций_свидетелей_Иеговы,_включённых_в_Федеральный_список_экстремистских_материалов
The vast majority of these incidents are because of the Watchtower’s anti-Catholic stance… a stance shared by most major products of the Reformation. It seems this is another Russian smoke and mirrors plot to make the oligarchs portray they are doing something to protect the Russian citizens against a “major” threat…. from 0.12% of Russia’s population.
No matter what JWs do, or even we do, Watchtower is doomed, not because they are a failing religion, but because those in power in Russia need to look like they are doing something for their country other than draining it of its resources. It’s painfully obvious at this point that, unless Russia bans ALL Protestant faiths that have been spewing Catholic hate for the past 500 years, this is yet another political make-work program basically in place so those in power don’t have to get legitimate employment.
Not unlike the Governing Body, I suppose.
Wait, or we talking about a religious or a political body?
http://tass.com/world/939467
“The Russian Supreme Court refused to adjudicate a claim by Jehovah’s Witnesses on recognizing the organization as a victim of *political repression* by the Russian Justice Ministry, a TASS correspondent reports.”
Covert Fade,
Perfect reasoning. To not agree with this article is to not be sound in mind. You hit every logical nerve, knocking it out of the ball park. I wish Putin could read this. (although there a few grammatical errors…very unlike you, but still the bomb!)
“although there ARE a few…” there is nothing worse than proofreading a text message or comment over and over before sending it, and then coming across a mistake after sending it! Lol
Historically cults defeat themselves. There has never been a cult that’s been banned out of existence. There also has never been a cult that’s been litigated out of existence. Cults, even abusive ones, are legal. You can expose them but that’s just about all you can do.
Leah Reminis’s show on Scientology has brought to light as never before the abuses of that cult. She’s not the first though. Has Scientology disappeared? No. You still have them sitting with their emeters on sidewalks. David Miscaviage is still a narcissistic jackass living well off of the misery of others. The same with the governing body and the other TRUE leaders of this organization Joel and Don Adams and of course their legal department.
When a government bares it’s teeth to protect it’s citizens everyone is up in arms. When a government decides a more mild diplomatic approach ,in the context of cults, it doesn’t get much attention but something else does happen. That something is absolutely NOTHING. I repeat again. When has ANY cult been held to account for their abuses in their respective countries? (Please don’t say Nazis you know what I’m referring to). Never. The world wide church of god fell apart because the new leader admitted the abuses of the church. Were any of the leaders or elders jailed or fined because of their abuses? No.
I hope to see something come out of the charity commission investigation. So far it’s been a whole lot of nothing. Again. The ARC has done a fantastic job of making fools of and exposing Watchtower leadership. However watchtower is defiant in their stance. In Australia the financial penalties are high enough to hurt the cult there but it won’t. That’s because Watchtower has been very careful in maneuvering their assets. They technically don’t even own the kingdom halls in Australia so good luck trying to liquidate what is essentially leased property. They’ll just say “oh we can’t pay the high financial penalties. Our charity doesn’t have the funds to pay those victims” and they won’t. So who’ll end up paying for those bills including payouts to victims? The Australian government itself. Nice one. That’ll teach them.
Ban them don’t ban them it doesn’t make a difference. They will continue to exist until some higher up inside decides to expose things. Not in the Ray Franz way where everything was done behind closed doors but in a way that informs every rank and file JW. Banning won’t shut the organization down but neither will the kid gloves approach. It’s expensive and despite our knowledge and feelings about cults most people don’t care. There are much larger world issues to be concerned about.
Hello. The book: “What does the Bible.. bla bla bla”, does not teach about the piramyd of Giza, Beth Sarim, and all the false dates (Deut 18:22). That same book on chapter one tells you how good is to have questions..but when you ask an elder: Why is it that i can not grow a beard??? the elder will take you apart and give you an speech. The point i am trying to make is that they try to hide things from the beginnig, they try to mislead you right from the first moment. If i were the president of a country i would say to them: “ok, you can stay but the rules in this country are these and these…do you agree? Yes: you can stay. No: go to the next country.
Relevant points Covert Fade.
I won’t focus on the arguments you made in this article regarding shunning and blood transfusions under ban, partly because I think you make valid points, but partly because I think it depends on the individual. The question: If you are a Witness under ban, would you be more or less likely, or no difference, to speak to your disfellowshipped relative or go to the hospital in an emergency? I think the answer would usually be “no difference”; and for those to whom it would make a difference, I would argue that, at least for shunning, it could go either way depending on the circumstances and the people involved. Probably only a survey would help answer that question.
However, regarding the child sexual abuse issue, I almost completely disagree with you. While I don’t at all claim to be an expert on sexual abuse within banned organizations, I will give my point of view.
First, regarding pedophiles who are not “true believers”. These are pedophiles who see the JW culture as being in their favor. They have no real interest in the Witness teachings and only pretend to believe so that they can get closer to the children in the congregation. These, I would predict, would be among the first to leave the religion if a ban took effect. They are not going to want to go to jail over some religion they don’t even believe in. True, they likely would go to jail even longer for child abuse, but they probably would see that as something they have a better chance of getting away with, due to the JW policies.
So I think a ban would both drive current pedophiles out of the organization as well as prevent new ones from coming in.
Second, regarding the pedophiles who are believers. While I’m not a psychiatrist, I have no doubt that there are active pedophiles who truly believe the Witness teachings. They may not leave the religion under a ban, but their ability to target children in the congregation, no doubt, would be limited. The 2 main opportunities pedophiles have to be with children in the congregation are the door-to-door work and the congregation meetings. Obviously Witnesses would no longer be paired up in twos, or go preaching together in groups, so that would eliminate one major opportunity for pedophiles to befriend children. And meetings, while they would still take place in secret, would not be as open socially as they are currently. I would conclude that pedophilia in the organization would be almost completely eliminated by a ban.
And as far as reporting child sexual abuse allegations to the police, I think that could go either way, depending on the laws of the land. Yes, your argument is valid, but I think other arguments could be made as well. Perhaps they will report simply to show that, when their beliefs are not involved, they are law-abiding citizens. Or perhaps, in the absence of a branch office overseer telling them when and when not to report, they may follow their conscience. In any case, whether or not they would report under ban is kind of a moot point, since there is a problem with reporting even without a ban.
I do agree that a ban is not the best way to handle the problem with certain Witness teachings and policies. But I do not agree that those policies will be made worse by a ban, and I think the child abuse problem will be made better.
@MM,
Your points are well explained. Wouldn’t it be great if the government explained things just as well with a public education campaign about the reasons behind the ban, explaining the compassionate and humane reasons for it? Explain the flaws of the org, and then explain that it has to be banned as a protection for the general public, just as drugs such as ‘ice’ are banned.
I would be interested to see the results of that. But, as mentioned, where do you draw the line? With just the witnesses? With all religion? With the press as well? Once freedom starts to be lost, it can have broader consequences. Once politicians taste power, it can overcome them.
Well my position on the JW ban is this: I do not believe it is the best option to address the problems, but I am not going to speak out against the ban, because I think it is better than doing nothing, which is what most countries do. I understand the JW Survey point of view, but I do think they are blowing the consequences of a ban out of proportion.
Where do I draw the line? Well I would definitely ban the Saudi Arabia version of Islam, Wahhabism. It is the most extreme version of the Muslim faith, and has led to groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.
But all religion? No. I’d look at each one individually. Most religions are not so extreme, and even fundamentalist beliefs in general don’t lead to policies of child abuse cover-up or death for lack of medicine. Even the Christian Scientists, under pressure and lawsuits, did away with the practice of not giving children of believers medical treatment. But it seems that nothing can change Watchtower’s mind.
Ban the press? Well I suppose it would be somewhat valid to compare Watchtower publications to the media, but a major difference is the press isn’t generally considered to be the final word on any given subject, with punishment for disagreeing, unlike the Governing Body. One would be hard-pressed to find a link between the mainstream media and illegal or extremist actions taken by readers. The word-to-extremism link can quite readily be seen in the land of Watchtower.
I completely agree that the kinds of governments that might ban a religion are also likely to go even further and do whatever they want, such as media control. I am keenly aware of the history of this issue. But my personal position is very specific, so I feel confident in supporting the ban without necessarily supporting other actions the Russian government might take. Whatever Russia does beyond the ban is on them.
For example, I wouldn’t support throwing Witnesses in jail for practicing or sharing their banned faith, unless it involved something like withholding blood transfusions from dying children. I think a reasonable monetary fine would usually be sufficient, or a bit of community service. Just my opinion (which will have no effect whatsoever on what Russia does).
Banning has never stopped any group from continuing to practice its religion. Jews, Roman Catholics, and Protestants have all been persecuted in times past with little success in curtailing their worship. They either go ‘underground’ or the seek sanctuary in more tolerant lands. Some, like the Pilgrim Fathers,set sail in wooden boats to new uncharted territories. In England during the times of Elizabeth 1, Catholics were hunted down, during the Spanish Inquisition Protestants were hunted down. Even though the followers of these religions were tortured with thumbscrews, iron maiden, the rack, burning at the stake, beheadings, hung drawn and quartering, the religions continued in their persecuted lands.
If JW’s do get banned in Russia, it will be a walk in the park for them compared to times past. The Governing Body should show loyalty to JW’s in Russia by going to meet Putin. The GB should put their case to Vlad, and with the help of Jehovah the ban will not take effect. Again, with the help of Jehovah, the GB could convert Vlad into becoming a JW; thus JW would become the official religion in Russia.
The Watchtower is always giving examples of Biblical characters for JW’s to follow and to live up to. The GB should practice what it preaches and follow the example of Moses when he went to confront Pharaoh. Or Daniel and his chums who were not afraid to stand up to Nebuchadnezzar. Instead, the GB would rather sit in their comfy chairs far away from the troubles, giving feeble advice to JW’s whilst their fellow JW’s in Russia take the heat.
Actually, the GB would be delighted if Russia bans JW’s. It would feed into Watchtower theology. JW Broadcasting and the Watchtower rag could then use the ban as confirmation that the End is even closer. They would tell JW’s that now is the time to be even more loyal and obedient to the FDS. The Watchtower could spin the situation even more to its advantage.
Banning JW’s in Russia will backfire on Putin, it will only make a deluded group like JW’s become even more deluded and fervent.
Russia should not ban JW’s but cut off their life’s blood by confiscating all Watchtower material and street preaching. Let them continue their religion amongst themselves but restrict any new literature and preaching in public. Also Russia should curtail any charity status JW’s have there. Here endeth the lesson.
They know the game they are playing! This is a Politico-religious movement. They will call Russia “the King of the North” (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004409?q=%28king+north+south%29&p=par) and attack the country the same way Roma was conquered and destroyed by the same so called Christians hiding behind the book of Revelation.
Europe has been destroyed the same way!!!! Bible is a strong weapon.
I would agree banning anything people desire or wish to have would only create a curious interest and create a drive for more. But, it seems most activists opposing the ban think this Russian Federal Law is targeting the Watchtower–alone.
Not true.
Very few articles and activists seem to address the international issues and concerns driving Russia (and the USA and other leading democracies) to encroach on personal liberties and revoke due-process. In this respect, it’s the same paranoia which ran rampant throughout 1930’s and 1940’s on a global scale and led to “diversity and inclusion” being pushed aside. But, I didn’t have relatives on a plane disintegrating mid-air, or escape alive from a subway blast.
Russia has some real concerns in noting that words and barriers of division have accountability–lead to actions, now or future–whether masquerading as religious freedom or not.
I never thought this ban is for the stated reason(s). Seriously, what would a man like Putin care about WT’s claim about other churches, unless he belongs to one, which he might? Any semi-dictator will in some way attack people making pronouncements against his rule. Isn’t that dictator methodology?
Since the early 1900s WT has been verbally hammering all governments of the world. Some will take it, others won’t. That mudslinging has been enough to get WT in trouble. Add to that its policies and restrictions upon its followers, which restrict governmental support, and then consider what will a sane person should expect from a dictator?
Putin has got rioters in his streets protesting him now, and its not the first time he’s faced such. I ask again, how would a sane brain expect him to act toward WT’s claims about his government and WT’s directives to its followers about voting and military service?
The fact that WT puts down other religions and so causes divisions is most likely an excuse. Because WT puts down that government, Putin’s, and causes members not to support its politics and military is most likely the unstated reason for the ban. Or is it stated by Russia? I’m not following it closely enough to know. But from what I’ve read I haven’t seen that reason given. Putin doesn’t want their kingdom halls. He wants loyal supportive citizens. He wants the same thing WT wants. If an org or country has that, everything else will follow.
Power, money, everything the world offers, comes from controlling the actions of others. Coca Cola is rich because millions or billions of people drink it. The whole world operates that way, and Putin does not want factions inside his country inhibiting his control. Control=power. Control=money.
If the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not have issues with Child Sex Abuse, shunning, and blood transfusions, I feel people would be more apt to say something to the Russian Federation to discourage the ban.
However, the three issues have not helped the Jehovah’s Witnesses with this ban either. It has added fuel to the fire. Many people would say, what goes around, comes around and leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands.
But there are innocent people who have no skin in Watchtower’s game of child abuse, or shunning. For those people, I would say banning is the wrong way to handle the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Enjoyed your article very much. You expressed some very thought provoking reasoning that I appreciate. The Unholy Trinity…spot on. Thank you.
Regards
There’s got to a limit to human rights, and that limit is reached when
my rights infringe on the rights of others. The WT org, crosses that
line in so many ways all of which have been highlighted here many
times.
They are not terrorists but some of their demands on others are
extreme and cause distress and mental anguish, and it’s got to be
said, many times unnecessary deaths of both adults and children.
While a complete ban may not be the answer, I think society as a
whole needs to demonstrate their disgust at the cruel side of this
religious cult. Withdrawal of tax exemption would be a positive
statement, ( Why should my taxes subsidise human rights violators!)
Though I don’t think even this would make them change the
shunning policy, the blood ban or the two witness rule. They would
probably put the bite on their followers for bigger donations.
They are already suffering a decline largely due to the information
age. So rather than a ban, publicity, educating people as to what
really goes on and what to expect, once inside this cult seems to
be the best course of action. So keep the comments coming folks
let the truth be known.
Initially, I was on fence on the banning (leaning towards banning), but I also think it will make it worse. This “proves” JWs right, which in turn will now make them MORE obedient to the GB. If they’re right about the persecution, they’re right about everything else. “Bible prophecy being fulfilled.” They will be like Noah, “he did just so.”
First sentence should read. There’s got to be a limit to
human rights,
But about “Snakes in Worship” JW say “worshipping animals rather than their Creator is offensive to God.” (See g 3/10 p. 23).
See how one of their King attacked “Nehushtan” in 2 King 18:4.
In my opinion and experience, “Snake worship” is safer than “Jehovah worship”! In this “Temple of Python”: http://www.africaguide.com/photolibrary/images/uploads/296/stand_5754.jpg , I would have been safer than in a “Kingdom Hall”!
Sorry, what?
@David TODD,
Jado was making a prophecy which obviously found a partial meaning in your heart, David, and this motivated you to want to know more. Much of your future happiness depends on your control of the snake, which may or may not have a sexual connotation. But you can feel a connection that this prophecy is true, can’t you? Jado can see further challenges along the way for you, and only a small payment will unlock this mystery from Master Jado’s mind, bringing greater significance to your life. Please contact Jado for his bank account details, and the small payment you could make to the Jado Appreciation Society which will change your life.
Hey, Jado, how was that? Ready for that partnership yet?
Flawless. Thoughtful and in my opinion 100%correct.
I totally agree with the points made in your article; although the JWs could be seen by the Russian government and by the powerful orthodox church as enemies of the state due to their kingdom propaganda, they don’t deserve such harsh punishment. A ban and consequently a persecution of the witnesses will not put an end to this cult. Russia has much bigger problems to resolve than few thousands JW’s and their propaganda. Muslims for example are not any better when required to support a non-muslim government and they are even more vocal about their beliefs than the witnesses, but nobody even dares to mention the word “ban” as the implications would be much greater and for obvious reasons.
I don’t support any totalitarism, I can appreciate that the witnesses are quite extreme in their beliefs and can be seen as fundamentalists by some, but in my view they’re not different from any other religions or cults. Let them carry on with their delusional beliefs, respect them, tolerate them, regulate their policies but don’t ban them!
For the record i’m a disfellowshiped ex-jw and don’t support their beliefs at all, like most of ex-jw’s I have all the reasons to be angry with them but I chose to move on.
I reiterate the point: live and let live.
I’m glad to see that hate has not got the better of you Mark.
messenger
Jehovah says:
BACK in 1906 Czar Nicholas of Russia received from some Russian peasant women a petition that, among other things, stated:
“For generations the women of the peasant class have lived without having any rights whatever. . . . We are not even considered human beings, but simply beasts of burden. We demand to be taught to read and write; we demand that our daughters be given the same facilities for learning as our sons. . . . We know that we are ignorant, but we are not to blame.” (w87 8/15 p. 3)!
Good point: “We know that we are ignorant, but we are not to blame.”!! Who can remind me, the 170,000 Russians preach the Good News that their country is “the king of the south” instead of preaching its eternity?
Jehovah says: *** w93 11/1 p. 16 par. 14 A King Profanes Jehovah’s Sanctuary ***
Germany had been a chief enemy of the king of the south during both world wars. After World War II, part of Germany realigned to become an ally of the king of the south. But the other part of Germany now became aligned with another potent empire. The Communist bloc, which now included part of Germany, stood up in strong opposition to the Anglo-American alliance, and the rivalry between the two kings became a Cold War.—See “Your Will Be Done on Earth,” pages 264-84.
That’s called “Prophesy”! A people preaching the end (destruction) of their country! It is like people singing songs of their funerals.
with or without ban the Wathctower will use any pretext to pretend they are the anointed people of god. So I vote to ban them. Great Russia
Do you have any specific answers to the points I raised in the article as to the problems a ban causes and how it won’t fix any of the problems caused by Watchtower?
Whether anybody commenting here agrees or disagrees with a ban, it won’t make the slightest difference. Lets just wait and see.
@outandabout,
With or without the ban, I can’t see the witnesses in any country doing much better than they are now. In Russia they were already starting to decrease. The powerhouse countries of Brazil, Angola and Nigeria may continue to pump up the numbers, but eventually will go the same way.
We are looking at the zenith, the apex, of witness numbers, maybe a small worldwide increase for a couple of years.
In 10 years the witnesses will largely be a spent force, and this site can close down. Lloyd Evans is doing himself out of a job. Happily.
This beautiful planet world has many wonders some in Africa like “Victoria Falls”! It has wonderful people, too. 170,000 Russians preaching the Good News:
*** w81 7/15 p. 5 The Power Struggle—What Outcome? ***
Which of the two superpowers has unabashedly spoken out against “the God of gods,” Jehovah, calling religion “the opium of the people”? Which of them has for years organized its entire economy to give priority to producing guns rather than butter; tanks and warplanes instead of food, clothing and consumer goods, thus giving glory “to the god of fortresses”? Which “king” has worshiped “a god that his fathers did not know”—scientific militarism—honoring it “by means of gold and by means of silver,” not hesitating to devote a large percentage of the gross national product to military technology and the armed forces? There can be no doubt that the modern-day “king of the north” is the Communist bloc, headed by the Soviet Union.
@Jado,
The USSR is no more. Who is the king of the north now?
Ask the WTS who plans all that. Give me donations from around the world I will turn prophesies in plans and destroy whatever I want by the power of $.
@Jado,
Good idea. Really. I want to team up with you. With your imagination we will be able to make oblique prophecies noone will understand, but will somehow have a connection to people’s sex life. And if we team up with some Nigerians we could really take this baby of an idea worldwide. I’ll be your manager. This has all the hallmarks of success.
Hi Silas, I must give you credit for persistence in trying to recycle
JW theology here, but we’ve already tried that product and rejected
it along with mountains of obsolete literature. Books containing
thrilling new light they said, but now reprocessed into paper napkins
and toilet rolls etc, things that are useful. Try the next street, you
might have better luck there.
A comment on the article: They are extremists. Exactly because of the behavior and policies mentioned. I’m happy that a “secular authority” has realized that religions don’t have to blow people up or commit acts of violence to be labeled extreme.
Religious freedom is what allows extreme cults like this to exist and survive. I’d rather live in a world with no religion and one less cult masquerading as a religion in Russia sounds good to me.
What I don’t feel the article addresses is the potential good that will come from a ban. Of course the older ones aren’t likely to waiver but the younger ones are very likely to start looking around and wake up.
This religion (all religions) will die out generationally. It will take time. It’s got to start with the young.
A second remark revolving around some of the comments: This is my view, I’m not afraid to express my views any longer, and I certainly would not impose my view on others. Please share your own viewpoints as they can introduce new ideas for other former J-Dubs.
It seems that there is a bit of sympathy to the “followers” as if they are innocent victims. While the leaders get the vitriol, the followers tend to get a free pass. I feel that it’s likely because we realize that we were good people and used to try to stay awake at assemblies and knock on doors too.
However, I have come to view it differently. The leaders have no real power. They issue their made up “bible based” rules and regulations, and tell the followers how to behave. I used to choose to obey them. I realize now that I always knew better but I was actually a coward. I was the one who gave them any measure of power because I carried out their commands.
The followers are just as guilty as the leaders in my opinion because they are the ones who actually carry out the nonsense, like shunning, or not reporting abuse, or watching someone die for refusing medical treatment.
I have no more sympathy for them because I came to realize how I was wrong when I chose to be a part of this cult.
If you can take 3 bible scriptures from different parts of the Bible completely out of context you could literally justify every crime that humanity has ever known. And the beauty part is you get to claim that it’s all “what the Bible says”.
Nuke the WT
I believe the whole point of the ban has been missed. The ban is because Russia perceives the JW’s to be extremists because they believe they have the truth and no other religion does. The remarks made by Silas Thompson and the subsequent comments by like minded people support this fact. The JW Organisation want the return of the holocaust perpetrated by some supernatural being so they can all live in paradise. All the dates they claim it will happen by have come and gone with nothing happening. The Governing Body must be losing face with some witnesses and all it takes is a strong charismatic leader to introduce NEW LIGHT and say they must start it first and Jehovah will join them in support. It is a high mind control cult and Russia is right to protect it’s people.