The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.
On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.
So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.
In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.
One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”
Remember the Wife of Lot.
The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.
Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;
The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.
One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.
There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.
Let’s set the scene.
Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:
“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”
And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.
The dinner party from Hell
What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”
Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.
Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.
However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.
Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.
Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.
Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.
Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.
Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.
The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.
For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!
What if the tables were turned?
Let’s switch this around.
Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.
During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double down, lambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.
Can you imagine how rude that would be?
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude.
Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents.
How do you feel about that?
Why does JW.org create these videos?
If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:
These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.
This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.
If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.
The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.
Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.
Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.
For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.
Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot
You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey
Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg
For those who are shunned by the shunners for shunning the shunners rather than the shunned, some advice: Remember the Law of Atrophy. Muscles which have not been used in a long time will be flabby & weak. That’s why u need to “go outside”, leave the “protection” of the WT Supercult, & start networking, building NEW relationships! Most people have no idea what they can accomplish when they PUSH themselves, & they never find out because they never push themselves. Start exercising those social “muscles” (which WT has suppressed) & u’ll be surprised at what u can achieve. WT fills their people’s heads with NEGATIVITY – “U CAN’T do this … U SHOULDN’T do that … U MUSTN’T do the other … OR ELSE ….” FEAR, FEAR, FEAR – The Manipulator’s #1 tool.
Interesting story I heard about the conditioning of circus elephants. As young elephants, they r tied to a post, by a chain. They eventually “learn” that they cannot break free. So, as mature, fully-grown animals, they r still tied to a post … but with a ROPE, which is obviously easier & more convenient for the handlers. The elephant can break free at any time, but IT doesn’t know that due to its conditioning.
Twistedsister So true!
We were isolated from society and ordered not to mix. We were held captive by fear and told that Fear of God was something to strive for. Since when has ‘Fear’ ever been born of ‘a healthy love’ for God?? We should be afraid to displease God because it would show a lack of appreciation for ‘all of the wonderful things He has done for mankind- the air we breath, the food we eat, the joy we feel at watching kittens play!’ The list goes on and on to include ransom sacrifice of His son and of course the wonders of space and the water systems ecological genius. Yes, brothers and sisters, you would do well to have Fear of God in your hearts. The heart is the seat of motivation don’t let your heart become wicked and draw you away from Jehovah. Don’t lose your fear of God remain among his chosen people and live…Live…LIVE!!!! (Rapturous applause)
Of course, the horrible end you will meet at Armageddon if you lose your godly fear is briefly mentioned along with some condescending remarks about pitying those that get destroyed but it was their own fault for not listening to instruction from Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Face palm)
How many of us were told that if we lose godly fear and turn away from Jehovah we would be like dogs returning to their own vomit. We would be doomed to a life of darkness without the light of hope! The whole ‘where would we go…with you are the sayings of life’ bs.
Leaving this cult has been the best thing I ever did.
My jw family have done their worst to try and prevent me from finding happiness. Well, shame on them! Ok, being shunned (not dfd) hurts like hell but I can’t force them to communicate with their mum if they’re being told to fear God more than they love me. There are no winners are far as shunning goes. The cult has to enforce rules to prevent those that leave from ever finding happiness to vindicate its ridiculous claims.
However, I am so much more settled and at peace with myself since leaving. I know I did the right thing by my son. It’s wrong to turn your back on family just because they’re not the same as you. Nowadays, Life is good- much better than it was! The JWs are wrong when they say that everyone who leaves the ‘Organisation’ -(who would even call their faith/religion an ‘Orgaisation’??-) will never be ‘truly happy’. It’s a sneaky, manipulative, controlling cult. They are also wrong about Armageddon coming and Jehovah wiping out society to form a New Earth. We don’t know if there’s life after death so make the most of this life! Get out. Just walk away. Be free and then you will know the real meaning of the word happy.
Btw TS has your name always had 69 on the end? I’ve only just noticed! Lol
Hi. Imgonaburn, I would just like to add to the reason you give for the practice of shunning. You say that it’s to prevent leavers from finding happiness by isolating them from everybody they know and love and thus hopefully forcing them to return to the cult. There’s one other reason for shunning and that is to prevent any sort of dialogue about the reasons for leaving. They fear a chain reaction of people realizing the truth and waking up and that could potentially cause more damage to the cult than the other reason.
It’s to be noted that the ‘hideous’ Catholic Church no longer shuns people but instead encourages contact and the showing of love to someone who falls away. I guess they’ve learned you’ll attract more bee’s with honey than vinegar, unlike God himself who is supposed to know more than anybody else in the first place. It’s Him who should have been teaching the wisdom of that one from day one and as a consequence have people flocking to him…….. seeing as he’s the master of wisdom. See’s the future. Knows the thoughts of 7 billion people simultaneously. Knows what I’m going to write before I do.
Hi outandabout.
You’re right about shunning being used to prevent others leaving. It’s another form of control.
My adult jw kids would continually try to pressure me into returning and ask why I would refuse. I used to say I needed to support my gay son so didn’t feel like I could be a ‘good witness’ if I were doing that and would consider returning when he was settled. They accepted that initially but then regarded it as me saying …’first let me bury my father’ …so as time went on they began to ask why I wasn’t ready to return yet. Then we had the whole shunning talk debacle at last year’s convention and I knew my days were numbered.
They insisted they wouldn’t shun me but became more persistent in wanting to know my reasons for not returning. It was like they were testing my responses to determine if I were still worthy. In the end I told them the truth. I said I didn’t believe in it all anymore. They couldn’t accept that and so dismissed it and asked what’s the real reason. So I told them I’d read about the ARC and explained how I believed that a God of love wouldn’t want them to shun their close family members. I mentioned the ties with UN, I argued about their struggle for freedom of religion and applied it to me. What about my freedom to leave my religion? Why can’t I enjoy the same freedoms that they fight so hard for? They forced the issue- I was happy to not mention religion at all but they ‘needed to know’. It was my ‘negativity’ about the religion and my objection to the level of control that they were subjected to that caused them to shun me. Truth be told, it was causing them to question their own faith. I was undermining their reasons for remaining in the religion and it unnerved them and their spouses. After not attending meetings for 5 years my having a Xmas tree was the last straw.
I decided to make it easy for them when it became clear that they were too deeply entrenched to just avoid discussing my reasons for leaving. They had to keep picking at the scab so to speak. They should’ve just left it alone. They believe I’m going to die at Armageddon and couldn’t just relax and enjoy the time I have left.
My eldest jw son and I are on better terms lately. He is more reasonable than my daughter- but she is married to a very overbearing man. I’ve explained to my eldest why I left their father. Our marriage was doomed if he was a jw and I was being shunned for not being one. He was allowed to see our grandchild ( our daughters baby) I was not. My being shunned put tremendous strain on our marriage. I’m not disfellowshipped btw. So I took action and moved out of the home we shared for nearly 30 years. I was scared about how I would manage but desperate for the chance to lead a normal life.
5 weeks later my husband finally decided that he wanted me more than the religion so we are reconciled. We are trying to work things out and so far it’s going well. My daughter and overbearing son in law now shun him! He isn’t breaking any of their rules he just doesn’t go to the meetings any more.
We are a threat to their spiritual stability. My daughter says she can’t see me, communicate with me or allow me access to my grandchild because she can’t risk losing her husband and doesn’t want her family to die at Armageddon because they associate with me. You couldn’t make it up eh?? That is their ‘normal’. That is the level of control they are under. They haven’t seen their gay brother for years now. He was never even baptised! My youngest hates the religion. It was his birthday yesterday. He was 19. He said to me today that the religion ruined his life. It made me laugh. Ok, so he missed Christmas and birthdays but he’s got the rest of his life ahead of him. Truth is he had a decent childhood. Lots of love and laughter and plenty more to come. Unlike my eldest 2 still wasting their lives slaving for the 7 old men waiting for billions to die….too afraid to have a relationship with their parents.
I never ever thought that this would happen to us. We used to be such a close knit family. Sisters in our cong would tell me that they wish their family had the same dynamic that we enjoyed.
I hope my daughter wakes up and remembers what she has thrown away. I hope the fact that her dad has chosen me gives her pause for thought. Her husband told her dad (whilst my daughter was present) that if he were forced to choose between his wife (our daughter) and the religion he would choose the religion!! Fear and control= cult and cruelty.
For some helpful tips on how to deal with Watchtower “PsyOps”, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-crl3_C3Ko
Since we’re on the topic of homophobia, if anyone is interested in conducting a fun sociological experiment, show the following video to Witless friends/family & gauge their reaction :D :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuDtACzKGRs
@dee2
U bet. Though I’m a Trekkie & a Star Wars fan, Stargate is my fave movie. It did postulate the idea that the Pyramids were built by aliens (or at least by human slaves under the tyranny of 1 particular alien who came to be known as Ra – the Sun God). Really cool wicked-awesome film.
And yes, it is interesting that the bible never mentions the Pyramids. Well, at least that’s 1 thing the ancient Hebrews didn’t specifically take credit for. LOL It’s pretty much established that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt, nor were the Pyramids, Sphinx, temples, etc built by slaves, but rather, skilled craftsmen & paid laborers. A fascinating new angle on ancient Egyptian culture was/is presented on Netflix – The Pyramid Code.
BTW, 1 of the best scenes in Stargate is when Col. O’Neill (Kurt Russell) zaps 1 of the Horus guards with his own zapper. The king of the slaves freaks out & orders the other slaves to prostrate themselves & start praying to Ra for forgiveness. So Dr. Jackson (James Spader) pushes the button on the dead Horus guard’s helmet-mask that opens it up & reveals that the Horus guard is a mere human, & says in their language, “Take a look at your gods, Yusef. Take a good look.”
Classic.
Twistedsister69,
As you are a Star Trek fan, I was wondering if you are familiar with a particular episode.I’m a bit hazy about all the details. It was one of the original stories with William Shatner and
Leonard Nimoy. Enterprise landed on a planet inhabited by Greek or Roman gods. The gods had became weak and had lost their power and influence, because people no longer believed in them. As some crew members began to put faith in the gods, they grew powerful again. I was a lot younger when I watched this, but years later I thought what an intriguing concept it was.
It is an interesting concept
I’d forgotten about that episode but loved it years ago
Even Hitler is fed up with WT’s “new light”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kUfiJ3AD5g
That was great! I can’t stop laughing at ‘leave the room, if you cannot not explain the Seventy weeks of years’ :D
hi, just back from the mid-week meeting where the childrens’ cartoon video against homosexuality was shown. A point made in the vid was;” everyone can change”. Later a bible study demo explained how a loving God hates murder – related to abortion. Yet earlier in the evening it was shown that in Exekie 9;6l, people not “marked” were killed – men women and CHILDREN without mercy…. It was later explained that the children were killed because of the sins of their parents. I am lost for words ……
Then why do you attend these horrible meetings? Your attendance is support. Guilt by association.
Witnesses all fired up after their convention here. Have already received an email with WT study articles for me to read… They wrote in part… ‘Know what you are going through and these articles helped me. I am sure they will help to … wait for it…. ADJUST YOUR THINKING. blaa dee blaa dee blaa….. er my thinking is fine, I don’t need it adjusting. Made me alternate between laughing and being annoyed all day.
Kay, what a rude email, where do they get the nerve?
What bloated egos, to think you need them to “Adjust
your thinking.”
Lol I know right. I am very well adjusted :)
In Gods tête-à-tête with Abe there’s no mention of
homosex, in S & G, and certainly none regarding
the women and children, but nevertheless they were
not spared. It’s a pattern of scapegoating that goes on
throughout the Bible, making the innocent as well as the
guilty suffer.
It wasn’t until the 11th century CE, that S & G, was labelled
as the hotbed of the gays by St, Peter Damian, a cardinal
and big buddy of pope Leo the 1X. But his views are not
respected by many theologians today, well maybe wt,!
In EZEk, 16, Jerusalem is likened to an adulterous wife,
and compared to 2 different cities, Samaria and Sodom.
Then in v49, the sins of Sodom in particular are described,
Which among others is, not caring for the poor and needy.
No mention of homosexuality
We’re all aware of the bad press the gays get in the
bible, but so do women, and heterosex, Rev,14:4 describes
them as “Defiling” to men, some. synonyms are, – debasing.
befouling. DIRTY. Thankfully, as society has matured, and
progressed. the bible has become less and less relevant.
Talking about Gay’s, Sodom, wrath of God, etc, Ted……I wonder what God’s purpose was on the morning of Jan 23 1556 when he unleashed a devastating earthquake in Shaanx, China, which saw the loss of an estimated 830,000 lives. But due to my religious fundamentalist upbringing, it’s essential I conclude that the area was a seething mass of homosexuals where a person couldn’t even turn around without being ……. Teach them, aye! Go God! Of course there have been the usual assortment of haters who are blinded from the truth and are suggesting the Chinese method of construction was at fault which caused the people to be crushed in their sleep, but I know better. Any day now!…….for the last 2000 yrs.
Yeah outandabout. Obviously some big sinning going on
there in China, but let me tell ya you don’t have to be an
Irreformable rotter for god to zap you. You’ve gotta be
on your toes all the time, or you could get caught out on
on some little sin, but they all count !
Onan got zapped for coitus interuptus, and that guy who
got his comeuppance for collecting firewood on gods
rest day, then Lots wife, nasty end there just for having
shufty back at S&G,
I’m sure now your gonna ask me about forgiving 70 times 70.
it’s best not to mention that unless you want to get zapped
as well, Ssshhh,
Well, given the value of salt back then, Ted, Lot’s wife may as well have been turned into gold. I suppose that with god moving in mysterious way’s, there was a message in that but nobody’s seen it yet. Imagine dying and having a statue of gold in your honor. So really, who was the lucky cow, then?
I’m actually looking forward to being zapped. This Paradise of God’s has been likened to a celestial North Korea, with North Korea being the preferred option because there at least one can f—–g well die!
Better to die on your feet than to live on your knee’s.
This is the most wonderful talk by Seth Andrews and it’s only about 4 minutes and it fits so well the topic here.
https://youtu.be/L6IPFyHEv3o
Seeing as it’s you, Caroline, I’ll watch it, but I wouldn’t do it for anyone else.
Some will say that the video portray’s what man is doing to man, not god doing the doing and if only people listened to god, none of this will happen – pretty much like Islam, portrayed as the religion of peace – yeah, once everyone is Muslim and on the same page.
The same goes for everything, even Atheism. That’s why I earlier pointed out the example of Sweden with it’s mostly atheistic harmonious society getting along really well, that is until the arrival of religious fundamentalism. Then there is Bhutan where it’s a government decree that everything the country does must make the population happier, and it works. The same goes for any sort of belief system. Once everyone is on the same page, then we can start building a better society, but until that happens, it’s the same old same old. Getting rid of the hell created by religious fundamentalism would be a good start.
outandabout, I know most people will probably look at that video and not see themselves. You almost have to be an atheist to appreciate the truthfulness in it. It was written by Seth Andrews and narrated by Nathan Phelps of the Fred Phelps family who, along with 2 of his siblings left that church and is now a spokesman for gay rights.
I’m trying not to get carried away with the YouTube clips, but I almost busted a gut with this one. Will not be surprised if it’s yanked, either. It’s quite naughty.
Anyway, say what u like about Jehovah’s Witlesses, at least they teach their children not to swear.
Unlike this naughty little boy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGR8pN0t_fU
Omg Caroline. I howled with laughter at this!! Swearing OUT LOUD has become my favourite sport since leaving the cult. This is pretty much the sort of conversation that takes place at any given time in our house nowadays. Hubby doesn’t join in though but that makes it all the more delicious!!
That video made me laugh too. My 7 year old twin grandsons talk like those kids in that video at home and hopefully not in public. They love those bad words even at their age but my husband used those words all the time and he was fully indoctrinated and I think most witnesses actually use the f word all the time, just not when somebody else at the hall will hear them. I heard it plenty and I swore like a sailor when I was in my car driving. One time a pioneer sister said it was wrong to even think swear words as a Witness and I can’t imagine a bad word ever coming out of her mouth either. I remember once how she was saying how lax the brothers and sisters were because they weren’t following the orders for family worship night when the book study was ended and that time that we didn’t have to go to meetings at the hall anymore was supposed to be replaced by the family worship night.
As for me, I was always so glad when we had tornado warnings out and the meeting was cancelled. It was such a great night when I didn’t have to go to the meeting and I could have a good conscience about not going.
Now, every night is good when I think about how depressed I was all day long all those years, thinking I couldn’t just go to bed all those nights but had to go to the meetings but now have a good conscience every night not having to go to those meetings when I know the whole thing was a sham
thank you twistedsister69 for posting this video from South Park. I love South Park.
I was just thinking (4 a change) – If we hit 1000 comments, it will be the Apostate Millennium. :D
@Caroline
U’re welcome. I love South Park too. Totally twisted. The Thanksgiving episode with the genetically-engineered killer turkeys is a classic. So is the one with Starvin’ Marvin. There r so many – that show ran for so long.
BTW, for anyone who enjoyed the Hitler video, & doesn’t know, there r tons more on YouTube under “Hitler Rants” – INCLUDING more on WT (“Hitler Rants Watchtower”) – like, Hitler responds to the 2016 convention “bunker” video; Hitler reacts to the 2-witness rule; Hitler as President of Watchtower; Hitler Gets Mad Again (about KH proprietary rights), etc. Enjoy.
… Though my fave is still “Hitler Finds Out Chuck Norris Is Coming”. :D
Reminds me of the C.N. joke that goes: Why did President Truman decide to drop the Bomb on Japan?
He decided it would be more humane than sending Chuck Norris.
@twistedsister69, I had no idea about those Hitler rants videos about Watchtower. Thank you so much for telling us about them.
Here is another video by Seth Andrews that will be encouraging for those who are dealing with family or friends who come out as gay.
https://youtu.be/xWovupLjz7w?list=PL1DA0C8985FAE1C22
@Jennifer
That Star Trek story rings a bell. A bit hazy for me too. I’m wondering if u got 2 episodes mixed together. I remember 1 where these ancient-Greek types had telekinetic powers that came from the food they ate, I think. That was the “famous” episode that featured the 1st interracial kiss on TV (Kirk/Uhura – Bill Shatner/Nichelle Nichols). Then there was the 1 with “Apollo”, the alien with a device that gave him superpowers, who had been the god Apollo in ancient Greece back on Earth. There may be another 1 closer to what u described. Unless the 1 u saw was on ST: The Next Generation or something. It’s possible to Google all episodes. Wikipedia has a list. I would look it up now, but my WiFi isn’t working at the moment. Even when it is, it connects only briefly. So I type my comments on Word, then copy, then wait, then paste & post real quick B4 the @#$% thing goes offline again. Yeah, my life is weird. :D Reminds me of a Spock line from arguably the best & most famous ST episode of all – “The City on the Edge of Forever” – the 1 where they go back in time & meet Joan Collins — “I am attempting to construct a mnemonic device, using stone knives & bearskins.” LMAO
@Caroline
U were probably the only person praying to “Jehovah” for a tornado! LOL
……. Then again, u were probably NOT the only person praying to “Jehovah” for a tornado!!! :D :D :D
PS Looking at the numbers of comments has just reminded me of another joke:
668 – THE NEIGHBOR OF THE BEAST
roflmao awesome hahaha
Hi Dee2,
[Yet I do wonder, for what actions was Lot considered favourably by God so that God sent angels to save him from Sodom’s destruction (Genesis 19:11-13, 15-17,19)?
For what actions was Lot also described as just and righteous in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:6-8)?]
My thesis is the motivation of the Genesis author is different than 2 Peter. For Genesis the author is primarily motivated to tell an origin story for the Jews, especially those descended from Jacob (Israel). The treatment is favorable due to Lot being related to Abraham. But Lot is presented with some defects, since he is a separate line from Israel.
Christians started out as a sect of Jews who placed Jesus into the role of Messiah. They were a persecuted group during the time 2 Peter is authored. The group seeks comfort in end-of-days thoughts that involve divine justice. The author of 2 Peter isn’t concerned about Lot offering his daughters for rape and possible death. Rather it is the divine justice applied to Sodom that is his concern. It was the wickedness of the Sodomites he likely was thinking about. In that context, Lot is righteous, in that he was favored with survival.
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy,
I can definitely see that you are really appreciating the Bible for what it actually is rather than for what it has been fantasized to be.
Indeed, the various author’s perspectives, motivations, what each deemed as important depending on the prevailing situation at the time of writing is definitely evident in the Bible. It also goes without saying that the Bible was also influenced by culture.
On another note, here’s wishing you every success in your studies. Your achievement will be an inspiration to others.
All the best.
Hi Dee2,
Thanks! I saw your comments earlier on my phone, but I’m on vacation in Canada, so this has been the first time I’ve been able to use a full size computer. Really appreciate your comments and insight. I saw your comment about Enuma Elis. Wanted to comment but didn’t have the time. I watched a lecture on this awhile back.
Here in Canada I’m visiting with my friend, who has been like a father to me. He left the faith about 10 years prior to me. We’ve been having fun discussing various Bible subjects. He is an avid reader of BAR (Biblical Archaeology Review). He and I also like watching Simcha Jacobovici’s “Naked Archaeologist.”
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Messenger,
[dee2’s comment to Randy is a perfect example of the type of guessing I told you about which is occurring on this site.]
That is true. Although I would argue ultimately no one holds a special position in this regard. Sure, some folks, claim forms of divine assistance, I just don’t believe such claims are true. Another difference orbits around an axiom accepted by some believers and rejected by non-believers such as myself. Some who believe in God, also, believe the Bible is divinely inspired and perfect.
Despite these different perspectives it can still be interesting to discuss this material. For example a believer can come to this site and look in on a discussion between two non-believers discuss their views about the Bible.
In the end, there is no uniform set of assumptions we can apply to believer and non-believers alike. Two believers, even of the same faith, may hold different views of Bible material. Likewise non-believers may hold different views. The problem that Jehovah’s Witnesses (not as individuals, but as an organization) have is their insistence there is only one correct view and that is what is printed in The Watchtower, Awake! and other JW publications.
While I’m happy to chat about my views, I don’t believe it is all that important we all agree and think alike in regards to specific religious beliefs. What one might believe about God and his view of homosexuality is not the important thing. What is important is how we treat others and if our beliefs allow us to be kind to everyone, including lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender folks, who otherwise face forms of persecution, then I applaud.
I believe one of the reasons some heterosexual Ex-JWs feel strongly about this issue, is we feel the sting of adverse judgement, not because we’ve made a selfish-bad-choice-to-leave, but simply because we’re being honest about what we now believe and who we are. I’m an atheist, not by choice, but because this is truly who I am. I would love to believe in a God who is willing to guide us and reward us for being good. I’m willing to entertain arguments for his existence, but, I can’t just will myself to believe.
Cheers,
-Randy
I think a lot of jws check out this site Bcause the discussions r a lot more interesting, intelligent, & intelligIBLE than the recycled-vomit-poured-out-from-a-toxic-dumpster-fire that’s spoon-fed to them at the Kingdom Hall Indoctrination & Re-Education Sessions, cleverly labeled as “meetings” & “study”.
Randy
I disagree Randy. There is a huge difference between holding a different interpretation about a written document verses adding thoughts to it that are not there. What dee2 did is a WT teaching tactic which is to add information not included in scripture (e.g. the scriptures WT claimed prophesied about its Cedar Point, Ohio convention ) in order to gain their following, Believing in Bible scriptures and their interpretations is a matter of choice true. However, stating that the account of Lot offering up his two daughters is an example of Christian ethics and God’s morality is not an interpretation, it is a lie. No other information than that account about Lot was offered as proof, because there is no proof. That statement is not factual, but its a total fabrication.
Believing the Bible teaches in the immortality of the human soul or does not is an interpretation. That’s not what’s going on with these type of posts. Neither are those happening simply because these folks are atheists.
Messenger,
If someone endorses a person without objecting to the person’s questionable actions what would you conclude? What lesson would you learn from this?
It is simple, while endorsing Lot (2 Peter 2:7 – 8) why not also condemn his questionable actions especially given the fact that God made sure to make it a point to condemn Lot’s wife for looking back which is certainly not considered a crime like rape and incest by today’s moral standards.
Further, there is endorsement of Lot, but no elaboration of any kind related to Lot’s offering his daughter’s to be gang-raped:
– Where were Lot’s moral actions when it came to safeguarding his daughters? Why wasn’t it also Lot’s priority to safeguard his daughters just as it was his priority to safeguard his male guests?
– Did Lot call the authorities or try to reason with the crowd, suggesting that rape is not okay? No. Instead he offered his two virgin daughters for the crowd to do whatever they wanted with them.
– Safeguarding male adult guests at the expense of one’s daughters can never be the right thing to do. Any moral person, or father, would have physically fought to safeguard his daughters from mass rape. I’m sure if his guests were moral people, they would have fought too.
The Bible is held up as the best moral code, an inerrant source of our morals and rules for living, the ultimate source of morality, so what moral lesson, what valuable life lesson are we supposed to learn from Lot’s story?
Messenger,
I should also add, the only elaboration or explanation offered regarding Lot’s actions is the reason for his daughters’ incestuous relationship with him – they thought there were no men in the world.
The daughters could however, not have believed that there were no men in the world. They had just come from Tzo’ar where there would have been plenty of men. Abraham, their great-uncle and company were situated about a day’s walk away.
Also the chances of two conceptions by two women on successive nights is very slim so some have concluded that it’s much more likely that these pregnancies were the result of repeated incestuous activity.
These considerations have raised questions about who the actual incest perpetrator was – was Lot the perpetrator and his daughters the victims?
As I stated above, the Bible is held up as the best moral code, so what kind of morals could one derive from this story given that there was no objection from the Bible?
dee2
What you assert is that the author of a document has to answer all your questions and concerns. That’s not the case. Just as I have not addressed questions and concerns but to me by Caroline (to name one command in the Hebrew scriptures I would follow), although that would have been very easily done if I chose to do it. For instance, all I had to do was cite a command or two from the ten commandments that every modern government basis its law on (e.g. do not steal, do not murder etc.). However, I chose not to give that information to her which would demonstrate how and why I felt about someone. The author of any document or any communication decides what to include and what not to. Your insistence that something must be included to satisfy your concerns is unreasonable.
And like I said you guys guess, and in doing that most of the time you are wrong. Even Randy assumed Lot was considered righteous simply because he was Abraham’s nephew. While Randy had no ulterior motive, like you and Caroline have, he is most likely wrong. Abraham had a lot of relatives that are not viewed in the Bible as righteous by God, so why would that be any different for Lot? Again my experience with observing guessers is that they are wrong most of the time. You definitely are a guesser as are many of the people you view as knowledgeable. For instance, in your assumption below you claimed the Bible is not accurate because you claimed it is nothing more than copied information from other sources. That’s not even a logical assumption. If anything some of the same information being contained in other ancient documents would suggest the Bible’s accuracy and truthfulness not lack of it. But you don’t see that because of your hatred, and your attempt to spread that hatred to others. Again I accuse you of hating a god you don’t even believe in and a book you don’t even believe in. So dee2, who do you really hate, since you don’t believe in those two things that are the subjects of your voiced complaints?
line 4 above BUT+PUT
Messenger,
Do you know what mythology is?
OK Messenger,
This just simply seems to be a case where God forgot to say something about Lot’s questionable actions which involved serious things – rape & incest.
But God certainly didn’t forget to endorse Lot while condemning his wife for looking back, which is not considered a crime like rape and incest by today’s moral standards.
God’s amnesia seemed to have eventually been cured – he certainly did not forget to give lots of information about not so serious/important things as:
– women’s menstruation (Leviticus 12; 15);
– not wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics (Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11);
– not planting your field with two kinds of seed Deuteronomy 22:9);
– making tassels on the four corners of your garment (Deuteronomy 22:12; Numbers 15:38) etc.
For a book that is claimed to be the best moral code, the Bible certainly knows how to give moral guidance.
Messenger,
While we are on the subject of lies. The Bible is the biggest lie there ever is. It is nothing more than a plagiarism/reworking/recasting of ancient Babylonian and Persian mythology passed off as truth.
If intellectual property rights existed back in the day, then the Babylonians and Persians would be very much within their rights to charge the Bible writers with plagiarism and intellectual property rights violations.
Yahweh “Hated” things he couldn’t possibly believe in,
Other gods for instance, and was even jealous of them!
How could he be jealous of what does not exist? Ex,20:2-6
The above comment is to Messenger, who accuses some us
of hating a god we don’t believe in.
Ted
In the scriptures you listed God’s prohibition was against the actions of people not nonexistent gods. If true all gripes of atheists would have a person or persons or organization(s) as their objects. Otherwise atheists argue against a nonexistent boogie-man god.
The scriptures you referenced show Yahweh was against people following the directions of other people that also led them not to follow Yahweh’s directions. Sources of misdirection are including in those scriptures by including the actions of people carving images and bowing down to those images. Both show the sources of misdirection were people not god’s Yahweh didn’t believe in.
So, if God does not exist and the Bible not true then mankind is only left with humanity to solve its problems, and only humanity is responsible for its moral problems. That is unless beings we don’t know about arrive in the future to give assistance. But even if that were to happen the gripes most of you have are moral ones. And the idea of technology from aliens solving mankind’s moral dilemma is very unlikely. But the real issue I raised to others here is the assignment of blame. Do you blame people for your gripes or a God you don’t believe in? If you blame people why not talk about them instead of stating your opinion as fact that Jehovah did something you don’t like?
Hi Messenger,
[There is a huge difference between holding a different interpretation about a written document verses adding thoughts to it that are not there.]
Fair enough, but how does one avoid adding thoughts? I see Dee2’s challenge as not unreasonable. Dee2 is asking one to explain Lot’s actions (offering his daughters for rape and then later committing incest), which, if we don’t add anything, would be pretty horrific.
Simply stating Lot’s recorded actions or noting Peter calling Lot righteous is in itself not adding. That is just want the text says. Depending on what assumptions are allowed, I don’t see why one couldn’t cite this as example of Christian ethics. The assumption being Christians believe in God and that he inspired the entire Bible (i.e. 66 books for most, 73 for Catholics).
When challenged by Dee2 we both respond by adding thoughts, even while noting the text does not provide a complete record. I added by pointing to possible motivation of the authors. What believers add is belief in God. Once God, as a variable, is added, it seems to have an interesting effect.
The non-believer, may, say, “Ah ha! You believe in God, so explain this…” Since God is assumed to be perfect, there is no need to waffle in regards to any of his actions. We can demand the highest ethical standards imaginable. Such thoughts about God’s power show up in school-yard riddles of “Could God create a rock heavier than he could lift?” to serious theological questions about foreknowledge and the effect on free will. In summary Dee2 can demand a lot of Lot, given God’s inspired word shows he was provided angelic protection and later called righteous.
A believer will often respond in opposite way. Far from placing demands on God, they will respond in humility, assuming they have much less power and knowledge than God. Indeed, God, being all powerful can address any seeming moral gap. For all we know, the angels could have directly told Lot to take the actions he did, to demonstrate the mob of sex-crazed men would reject even beautiful young virgin females. The angels could have assured Lot and his daughters the outcome be okay. Even addressing the issue of incest should not create a moral gap God is unable to bridge — he is after all, all-powerful. Us humans might not be able to solve the conundrum, but surely we can have confidence God can.
Alas, I see concerns with both views. Thus, my suggestion, the correct test is not what we believe so much as what we actually do. How do we treat, gays? If the answer is poorly, we may be able to adjust without having to discard a bunch of beliefs.
At the end of the movie Religulous, Bill Maher faces the camera and says, “for humanity to survive religion must end.” I disagree. Not only do I believe being religious is the natural state of human existence for most, including myself, the real problem is how power is handled.
In the book Naming Infinity, one finds this quote: “In my time I evaluated many things, including the most important facts, extremely incorrectly. Sincerely deluded, I nourished by illusions which later deceived me, but at that time I struggled for their realization, sacrificing everyone.” The confession of religious zealot? Nope! This quote is from Ernst Kol’man an one time militant Marxist, who persecuted top USSR mathematicians, because they were also religious.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Messenger,
I posted a response, but it seems to have hit a moderation trigger. Here is a tease… :)
[There is a huge difference between holding a different interpretation about a written document verses adding thoughts to it that are not there.]
Fair enough, but how does one avoid adding thoughts? I see Dee2’s challenge as not unreasonable. Dee2 is asking one to explain Lot’s actions (offering his daughters for rape and then later committing incest), which, if we don’t add anything, would be pretty horrific.
Simply stating Lot’s recorded actions or noting Peter calling Lot righteous is in itself not adding. That is just want the text says. [snip]
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy,
If someone is questioning why important moral information is missing from a text is that the same as adding thoughts that are not there?
I am simply questioning why
– if God endorsed Lot,
– if God made sure to condemn Lot’s wife for looking back, which by today’s moral standards is not a serious offence compared to incest and rape,
– and given that the Bible is held up as the best moral code,
then while God was in condemning mode why didn’t he also condemn Lot’s questionable actions which are far more serious by today’s moral standards, than Lot’s wife’s looking back?
Why is there endorsement of Lot but:
– no condemnation of his questionable actions, only condemnation of his wife for something that is not considered a crime by today’s moral standards whereas Lot’s actions would be?
– no elaboration of any kind related to Lot’s offering his daughter’s to be gang-raped?
Isn’t that what we would expect from a book that is held up as an inerrant source of our morals and rules for living, the ultimate source of morality?
Is there a justice system in today’s world that would put someone to death for looking back while not penalizing a person for the more serious crimes of rape & incest?
Why is such important information that could provide moral guidance missing from the Bible yet God found it important to provide information about not so serious/important things such as:
– women’s menstruation (Leviticus 12; 15);
– not wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics (Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11);
– not planting your field with two kinds of seed (Deuteronomy 22:9);
– making tassels on the four corners of your garment (Deuteronomy 22:12; Numbers 15:38) etc. ?
Also, the reason for Lot’s daughters’ incestuous relationship with him – they thought there were no men in the world – is not plausible.
BOTTOM LINE: If God endorsed Lot but did not condemn his questionable actions what moral, valuable life lesson are we supposed to learn from this story?
Randy,
Messenger is basically saying that we should never question the Bible.
It just shouldn’t disturb us that God endorsed Lot but didn’t condemn Lot’s questionable actions.
Randy
The thought I referred to above, that dee2 has added information to text and declared her opinions factual on multiple occasions is not information that she directed towards Lot. It was directed towards God, and at times has included Christians. Her position is clearly taken in several of her comments. Check it out. Precisely her claim is that God sanctioned or approved of Lot’s despicable actions because Lot is referred to as righteous in later scriptures, and because he was saved out of Sodom before the incidents she referred to occurred. In one of her posts from a month or two ago she included Christians, though the group she referred to might have merely been inferred and not cited by name. I can’t remember. She used the pronoun “their.” Let’s see, if I remember, her comment went something like this, ” This incident (speaking of the same despicable incident) demonstrates their values.” I can’t remember if she said Christian values, but that might have occurred in that post also. My point is not that she takes a huge leap to pin disgusting ethics on Christians, but her victim of choice is the god of the Bible, taking huge leaps which do add information to the text. I see she learned a lot from WT, as this is one of WT’s primary teaching tactics used in practically every WT lesson.
Dee2 can claim what she wants, but there is no wiggle room here. She didn’t ask anyone to explain Lot’s actions that were despicable, she said those actions were approved by God. She asked me to explain for what other reasons God considered Lot righteous, that’s all. Factually God is under no obligation and neither am I to provide the information she requested of me. The fact that the information is not included in the Bible does not prompt an honest person to add that type of critical information to a text and declare it to be factual. Anyone can have any opinion they choose, but that’s not how her comments are presented. Hers are presented as facts.
messenger, it’s the Bible that sanctioned Lot’s actions with offering his daughters to be gang raped and also it’s the Bible that condones his having drunken sex with his daughters as well.
Stop saying that I or dee2 or anybody else “claims” anything. We are using the Bible.
Wake up Caroline. Either that or get honest. All here see that you are a Bible reader, and also that you are somewhat informed of what others believe about it. With the billions of Christians you know of you are not aware of one Christian group that agrees with your position because there are none. Also, you are not aware of any individual Christian that agrees with that or dee2’s and Randy’s claim that a father handing over his daughters to be gang raped is representative of Christian ethics.
The three of you don’t appear you be absolutely ignorant, that’s why I ASSUME you a dishonest. I believe my assumption is more accurate than yours since yours has no takers whatsoever except possibly deluded ones that follow you, or people here who want to appear nice. If your position is correct why not sight all the Christian groups that do support it? There are none. Your motive is obviously to smear, so who directs you? Is it your spirit, or is there another?
Hi Messenger,
[Also, you are not aware of any individual Christian that agrees with that or dee2’s and Randy’s claim that a father handing over his daughters to be gang raped is representative of Christian ethics.]
That is Dee2’s point, I believe. As per the Huffington Post 28% of Americans believe the Bible is the word of God. Thus they would they believe Peter is correct to call Lot righteous. Jehovah’s Witnesses, at some expense, just produced and distributed a video that uses the account of Lot to condemn otherwise praise-worthy lesbian parents.
Yet, if asked, “under what circumstances would you offer your daughters to a mob of sex-crazed men intent on gang rape?” — the answer, as you note, is 0%. The point of Dee2’s challenge, is to highlight this inconsistency.
If focusing the actions of a Bible character creates room for rationalization, it is not difficult to see examples of God’s direct actions and raise obvious ethical issues. Drowning en-mass babies, kittens and puppies because of the “badness of men” has ethical problems. An imagined future genocide entertained by many Christian groups has ethical implications.
To advance the rights of the LGBT community there is only so much I can do. I admit, I am hampered by lack of belief in God and the Bible. However when a believer and defender of Bible nonetheless stands up and says gays can be Christian (as Gene Robinson is), it is a very powerful thing. The Christian community was brutally persecuted by Roman authorities and as per NT authors, egged on by Jewish religious authorities. How unfortunate that after gaining power and respect some modern-day Christians, such as JWs, expend effort to oppress others.
Thus, when you state, as many Christians do, Lot’s actions need not be understood as a model of Christian ethics, this can help further gay rights. In the same mode, such believers can point out their rejection of Leviticus laws calling for male gay sex to be punished by a death sentence.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hey TwistedS,
If you think Moses’ climbing a mountain in sandals and a robe was hilarious check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xnZlJMl4J8
HA!
Classic
OK, here I go again … This is a classic from the 1940’s. Just replace “der fuhrer” with “tony morris”, “steven lett”, “the governing body”, “watchtower”, or Hey, even the name of some Dumbass elder or circuit overseer u could never stand! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZlFBSRrSR0
Just watched it again … OMG, at the end, Eddie entered the Stargate!!! WTF??? :D
TwistedS,
I think he has some Star Trek, Star Wars jokes too.
I just can’t get over the no brainer – no one went looking for Moses when he went AWOL. No search & rescue party, no curiosity/concern as to whether something may have happened to him. Oh well, let’s just smelt some metal. LOL.
Thanx dee. I’ll look 4 his ST / SW stuff on YouTube, as far as my computer lets me.
Steemit. ?
God doesn’t like all this discussion because according to the KJV of Deuteronomy 13 13-18, God’s recommendation on how to deal with religious debate and discussion from other towns says, in a nutshell;
1 Find out where they live and go to their town.
2 Slice everything living thing to pieces, including the animals.
3 Flatten the place, and take all the non-living bits and burn them to the ground in the middle of the town.
4 Make sure no one tries to live in that place again.
Not feeling the love!
C’mon, outandabout, how can those beautiful, moving Bible verses NOT give u a warm, fuzzy feeling inside the bowels of ur soul? – Ye of little faith, do u not see with ur Spiritual Eyes, the mercy, forgiveness, & love of Yahweh, aka Jehovah, in those INSPIRED words of absolute PERFECTION, WISDOM, & WONDERFULNESS?
:D :D :D LMFAO :D :D :D
“SLASH & BURN EVERYONE & EVERYTHING WHO DOESN’T AGREE WITH US, & THEIR BABIES TOO!!!” – Would make a great Monty Python sketch. lol
It’s not hard to see the relationship between Christianity and Islam.
What has happened to this website? It seems to have gone to the dark side. Has become a personal blog for a few people. Realize that it is very time consuming to research articles and post them.Can we expect new subjects anytime soon?
Not surprising, since they both serve the exact same god. Of course, most JWs believe that THEY have a special relationship with that particular god, yahweh, aka jehovah, as a result of unrelenting indoctrination by the 7 New York Nerds.
ha ha ha … My above comment could be misinterpreted. Sorry, I should’ve hit the Reply button under outandabout’s comment re: christianity & islam. That’s where it’s meant to be. Though, Alone in MD’s comment was not there when I posted mine, so it WAS directly under outandabout’s at the time I posted it. Not sure what happened. Perhaps my computer has come up with some new tricks. lol
Yup, my life is !@#$ing weird.
Re, Lot and his girls. Someone made a comment
that there was no written law against incest, in an attempt
to mollify the actions of a disgraceful father.
As far as I know there was no written law at the time , against
homosex, but that same person claimed that’s why S&G
was destroyed, I won’t embarrass him by revealing his tag.
Is human reasoning so deficient that it has to have every–
thing spelled out. People lived successfully for millennia
without the Bible, and still do today. The reason is–
“Natural Law” of which Lot was guilty of violating.
Ted,
According to said person, God’s plan for incest changed because God altered our DNA as punishment for the “original sin”. This DNA alteration subsequently resulted in negative side-effects from incest.
But not to worry, God has made an antidote for Adam & Eve’s error available through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
So apparently at some point, God will reverse his alteration of our DNA and the subsequent genetic defects which resulted, then incest will be once again OK. At that time, parents will be having sex with their children, siblings with siblings, cousins with cousins etc.
Ted,
According to said person the reason why incest/inbreeding is also bad for animals, not just humans, is because animals were never perfect, so there was never a time when their genes were closer to perfection?????
And all this time I thought
“God saw all that he had made, and it was VERY GOOD” (Genesis 1:31).
So animals didn’t have to eat a forbidden fruit to corrupt their DNA, they were just made that way, yet man ate a forbidden fruit which corrupted their DNA.
Ted,
According to said person incest was allowed during Noah’s time because those people were closer to perfection.
However, according to the Bible story, by the time of Noah, humanity had fallen so far from perfection that God regretted he had made man on the earth (Genesis 6:6) and so he tried to wipe us all out.
@Alone in MD
Golly Gee, so sorry we’re not sufficiently entertaining for you.
PS I haven’t seen a lot of contribution from YOU. Seems the incompetent make the most avid critics.
… Reminds me of my (non-JW) dad. At every social / family event (which, of course, I now SHUN), he would sit on his fat ass & judge every Goddamn word that came outta my mouth, every $%^&ing joke I made. Meanwhile, he sat there like a Goddamned LOG, a piece of dead wood, & contributed almost NOTHING to the conversation(s).
Like I said, THE INCOMPETENT MAKE THE MOST AVID CRITICS.
Or, THOSE WHO CAN, DO. THOSE WHO CAN’T, CRITICIZE.
Hey, Alone in MD (wonder why u’re alone?) – why don’t u spend the rest of today composing an actual comment, instead of a snotty little 3-line JUDGEMENT of WE who are actually CONTRIBUTING !!!!!!!!!! :)
U remind me of most JWs, who judge & criticize every little error, u know, yelling at the receiver every time he/she fumbles the ball. Of course, JWs NEVER fumble the ball. Know why? BECAUSE THEY NEVER PLAY THE GAME. THEY NEVER GET OUT ON THE FIELD. They are a CULTURE of SPECTATORS … MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKS … ARMCHAIR GENERALS.
Yeah, good luck with that sh*t.
U think u can sit in the stands 4ever??? In life, THERE ARE NO STANDS.
@twistedsister69
So sorry that you had such a lousy childhood or it seems adult life. Actually married to a JW (non JW myself). Trying to gather info because my older kids seem to be leaning towards JW teachings. Trying to collect info to combat the the lies and show the real truth. Seems this post has been up the longest of any I’ve seen in a long time. Have you ever thought about anger management? Settle down not good for your blood pressure.
Alone in MD
Without really knowing the Bible’s message already and without seriously contemplating if what WT teaches is God’s Bible message many will follow WT. WT’s claim that it is God’s only earthly channel of communication while getting its followers to accept that as truth is one of the reasons for this.
WT teaching includes interpreting a few points differently than most other Christian religions. While getting its followers to accept those interpretations and declaring itself godly while all other points of view are demonic it controls its followers. Because to followers if you don’t follow WT you can’t follow God.
A reasoning person who is not sold out to those ideas will consider if God would logically support those claims. However, that challenge is not made by WT members, partially because of the sense of community adherents feel inside their groups. In the minds of those that join, or those that are on their way to join, all other religious communities are accepted as being demonic. However, after some members see corruption inside the organization some begin to consider WT teachings more critically, considering if those are truly Biblical. Others lose faith in the Bible and God.
them? Let us bear witness in court without communicating with it or contacting court in any way.
5. See Matt 12:3-7. Christ expressed his and God’s position there that totally refutes the idea that refraining from a blood transfusion, because blood in the Bible represents life, is more important to God than a person’s actual life. Also see Matt 9:13. Again WT teaches if a person takes a transfusion to save his/her life and does not repent that person will be kicked out the church with the prospect of everlasting death from Christ.
Here are a few more actions a member is accused of deserving everlasting death for if unrepentant. And they will be kicked out the church for doing:
1, Saluting a national flag.
2.Celebrating Christ’s birthday.
3. Associating with an ex-Jehovah’s Witness that has been kicked out the group or told their group they were leaving it.
4. Smoking cigarettes.
5. Going to another church or sharing in worship with any other Christian church.
6. Refusing to believe any primary WT teaching.
7. Telling your congregation you no longer want to be a JW even if you still believe in God and Christ and consider yourself a Christian following Bible scriptures.
There are many other statements to be made concerning your inquiry. This is the tip of an iceberg.
These statements below probably won’t help your kids as they are in the introductory stage of their memberships, but here are a few illogical assertions from WT. These are also unscriptural.
1. Christ will kill you forever if you vote, and those at WT headquarters and its elders will kick you out of your congregation and declare you unchristian for voting.
2. WT can be wrong about any of its scriptural teachings while retaining God’s approval, yet no other Christian organization has God’s approval and all those members are following the Devil because all those other Christian organizations teach SOME inaccurate Bible doctrines but not all. So, in actuality, according to WT those organizations do the same thing WT admits it does, that is teach some doctrines accurately, but not all.
3. If you seek higher (university) education like I have you’ve sold out to the world, you’re trying to make a name for yourself, and you are not a exemplary Christian.
4. WT claims God does not contact anyone in our day, yet their governing body members and other members claim God’s Spirit bore witness with their spirits. How can God’s spirit bear witness with them without contacting
Looks like I inadvertenly erased part of my comment above and sent it off without recognizing that. Those statements missing proceed the first #5. I don’t remember most of what’s missing, since I write from start to finish without notes or outline. But one thought partially stated I remember. It is the way governing body members and some JWs claim God’s spirit bore witness with their spirit although WT claims God does not contact people in our day. How can anyone bear witness with anyone without some type of contact?
Easy there, TS. Well here’s something for whoever is interested…… news is that senior Vatican official Cardinal George Pell is now facing multiple sex assault charges in Australia. The wheels of justice are sometimes a bit slow, but the GB must surely be getting nervous given that Australia has about 5.4 million Catholics and were found by the ARC to have about 4,400 sex abuse cases compared to the JW’s who have about 60,000 followers in Aust. and have about 1,000 cases. That makes the WT about 18 times worse on the issue than those ‘crow food’ Catholics and about 60 times worse than the ‘Satan’s fodder’ Anglicans. The GB will be praying there arses off for Armageddon to release them from their hell. Unfortunately, they’ll also be ramping up the paranoia among the followers.
@outandabout
LOL Good one! Reminds me of an old song by Prism, a Canadian band (coincidentally) – “Armageddon”. Chorus goes, “Ar-Ma-Ged-Don, Carry me ho-o-o-ome, Ar-Ma-Ged-Don, Carry me ho-o-o-ome …” If any GB or their Agents happen to be reading this, THAT can b ur NEW SONG – ur new ANTHEM !!! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :(
Someone (Ted?) said something to the effect that the Bible is morally bankrupt. Totally. I’m sure every other “holy” scroll is as bad. Look at I-slam. With the “Global War on Terror” – please protect me! – we have heard (ad nauseam) how the Quran preaches peace & islam is a peaceful religion (just like all the others ;) ), that the Quran does not advocate violence or war. Of course, this is not an attack on muslim people, who, of course, are predominantly just as law-abiding & peaceful as most folks. I’m talking strictly about religions & their “holy” scrolls. So … if the Quran is a book of total peace, what’s this verse all about? – (9:5) “And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.” Sound familiar? lol
Yes indeed, all religions sound awesome in THEORY. As I previously stated, they’re all like paintings. Viewed from afar, they can appear incredibly attractive. But get close up & u see the flaws – & BOY r there FLAWS!!!
Ted mentioned “Natural Law”. Spot on. Too many rules & regulations make people stupid. Today’s society is inundated with pointless rules & warnings like “Caution -This Beverage is Hot” (yeah, I know, I’m the 1 who ordered it) or (no kidding, I actually saw this once) “Warning – Door May Open at Any Time” (I’m pretty sure that’s what doors r designed to do). If u don’t know ur coffee is hot, or this door can open (AT ANY TIME no less), then I’m sorry, but u don’t belong on this planet. Yes, I know it’s more complicated than that, involving law suits & BS like that. I know some loser, long ago, sued McDonald’s ’cause they spilled their coffee on themselves. That lawsuit, OF COURSE, should have been laughed at & tossed out. But it wasn’t. & call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but I believe that it’s BS just like that, that has led to the current epidemic of stupidity. I know “common sense is not that common”, but holy crap Dude.
BTW, in about 5 hours it will be Canada’s 150th Birthday!!! Is that the sasquatchcentennial? I don’t know. Anyway, Happy 150th Canada!!!!! God Save the Queen & Smite the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society!!!!!!!
A big Shout Out to all our Canadian brothers & sisters in the enchanted land of cougars & beavers!
Oops. What did I just say?
Cougars and beavers!??……on my way!
I’d like to ask those people who’ve once been Christian but now not, what they now think prompted those geezers back then to write the bible. I understand that today the Bible is used as an instrument of control, but something must have inspired pen to paper in days of old before churches existed. Is the bible ancient mans attempt to explain everything using the attitudes and knowledge they had at the time and the weaving of that attempt around historical facts and the filling in of any gaps with guess’s and whatever seems to fit, or is there something else. What started the writing and what kept it going? There had to be a spark.
outandabout, Joseph Atwell wrote a book showing why his theory is that the New Testament was written to quell the Jews revolt against Rome at the end of the first century A.D. and this theory seems very plausible to me.
Rome had gone into Jerusalem in 67-70 C.E. just as Watchtower has said but the Roman soldiers seized all the Jewish scribal writings that they could find and destroyed them and then Flavious Josephus had been taken captive and started working for Rome as an historian and it was between him and the Romans that they came up with Jesus and all the rest of the scriptures and using the Catholic monks that is why there suddenly appears thousands and thousands of New Testament writings starting around 300 C.E. and non before that at all. That explains why the dead sea scrolls were hidden in caves. It was to keep them from the Roman soldiers. The Dead Sea scrolls were all written in Hebrew and Aramaic and not in Greek that the N.T. is written in. It is a very interesting theory and there is a documentary on Youtube that is very interesting to watch which was a movie.
By the way outandabout, very few church goers know anything at all about the history of the Bible or how we got it. They just go to church and let the preachers tell them what they want to hear.
Hi Outandabout,
[I’d like to ask those people who’ve once been Christian but now not, what they now think prompted those geezers back then to write the bible.]
It is hard to give a simple summary because the B1ble is a collection of books and authors. Even single books we have now, such as G3nesis, I believe, as per the documentary hypothesis, were originally separate sources, redacted and merged to reach the form we see today[1].
I believe the authors of most B1blical stories felt they were recording real history. Sections of the OT in original source form are ancient. King David is a known character from history. The silver scroll of Ketef Hinnom dates from prior to the 587 BCE.
Thus for the OT, I think a main prompt was “origin of” stories used to define acceptable behavior. To quote Tevye, “And because of our traditions, every one of us knows who he is, and what G0d expects him to do.” A second prompt is the cry for justice of an oppressed people. The section of the minor prophets picks up this theme many times.
Some of the objections to the B1ble, I find, fairly misleading. For example:
Objection: The B1ble has been changed so many times.
Response: The window open to redactors was there, but it closes rapidly as soon as the era of copying the text begins.
Objection: The B1ble has been translated so many times.
Response: When I hear this I’m tempted to cock my head sideways in puppy dog fashion and say, huh? so? Why would act of translating make the original source unreliable? But… there is one special ancient translation that is important to understanding the NT and often missed by many modern Chr1stians.
Most modern B1bles have an OT portion translated from Hebrew and Aramaic based on the Masoretic Text. The problem is NT quotes the OT, but… the evidence we have is NT authors quoted, not from the Masoretic Text, but instead from a Greek Translation of the OT known as the Septuagint (LXX)[2].
For the most part this doesn’t matter too much, since the LXX is a good translation and does not vary from the MT-OT much. However, for JWs, there is one big difference… the LXX used by NT authors had the divine name replaced. The attempt to inject J3hovah 237 times into the NWT NT creates major confusion. The NT text is all about J3sus as the Chr1st along with end-of-days Kingdom-of-G0d thoughts. Almost all NT references to the G0d of the OT is used to establish a father-son relationship with J3sus.
Cheers,
-Randy
[1] G3nesis 1:1 to 2:3 uses G0d. G3nesis 2:4 retells the story using J3hovah
[2] H3brews 1:6 quotes D3uteronomy 32:43 from the LXX
Hi Outandabout,
I responded to your post, but alas, something about my response has triggered the moderation flag.
Perhaps if one of the moderators could explain what triggers these responses it would helpful. Otherwise it is frustrating to spend a fair amount of time to compose a post only to see it hidden from view until it comes out of moderations.
Cheers,
-Randy
Thanks, Randy. Considering my question was off topic, I won’t hold my breath for that reply.
Cheers.
Hi Outandabout,
On my screen “outandabout” is blue in color, so maybe you are holding your breath :p In any regards I now see my post is visible.
Cheers,
-Randy
Outandabout, I can certainly say bible writing didn’t begin
with Moses, the writer of Genesis lived much later.
Compare Gen, 14:14 with Judges 18:29.–>. Genesis
mentions the City of Dan, which wasn’t so called until
over 300 hundred years after Moses, at the time of the
events described in Genesis, the city was called Laish.
Modern archaeology is of the opinion that the OT was
compiled around the Babylonish captivity era, with the
purpose of strengthening national identity. Probably put
together by men such as Ezra and Jeremiah, it was at
that time that Yahweh was elevated to the position of
the one supreme God of the universe.
The OT is redacted history, and nationalistic propaganda.
The Jews sacrificed to many gods all through Bible
history, then according to Jeremiah ( during the captivity)
he got the message from Yahweh that all this had to stop.
Otherwise the standard punishment would be forth coming–>
“Everything breathing” will get the sword, famine and plague
treatment”. ( Well you know what they say! “Never change a
winning system ” ) –>
Now all the guys and gals were not happy with this one God
arrangement, we’ve had nothing but bad luck since it started,
they said! So we’ll keep on with the old favourites, like the
Queen of Heaven. But eventually after much propaganda
and brainwashing the one God system took root Jer,44;15-18
Watchtower likes to quote Zephaniah 1:14 where it says:
“The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much…” but they never they never go on to Zephaniah 1:18 where it says:
Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will he will make an extermination indeed a terrible, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”
@caroline
Right? They don’t read the part that “he will make an extermination …of ALL the inhabitants of the earth” and “the whole earth will be devoured”.
Wonder if they would say it would mean those isolated from Jah?
Hmmm!
I would say another inspiration for “holy” scrolls & the invention / fabrication of Religion is: POWER !!! Yeah, baby, Religion is a POWER TRIP. Husbands get to Lord it Over their wives & kids, wives get to Lord it Over their kids, kids get to repeat the Cycle when they grow up, “elders”, priests, pastors, padres, rabbis, nuns, bishops, circus overseers, imams, etc get to Lord it Over their “flocks”, & the Really Big Shots, the Head Honchos, u know, the popes, cardinals, ayatollahs, district overseers, & “governing bodies” get to Lord it Over EVERYONE-HA HA HA HA HA HA HA-OH, the POWER !!!!!!! Like I said B4, without hobbies, everything turns to sh*t.
Religion serves the same purpose as Politics, as well as Marketing (which BTW was pretty much invented by the Nazis – think about it – the swastika was the 1st example of “Brand Recognition” – personally, I wouldn’t trust anything invented by Nazis, except the Volkswagen – those Goddamned Nazis really nailed that one). Those Institutions are basically all about Control / Manipulation / Enslavement of the fearful, huddled masses. And the huddled masses love it. There’s nothing more pathetic than a voluntary Slave. All those poor bastards are SEEKING “guidance” & “protection”, someone(s) to tell them what to do, think, & believe. Someone to make their life decisions 4 them … ANYONE. That’s why they consistently delude themselves into believing that the folks they have handed all their power to, are wiser & more capable than themselves. It’s the only thing that helps them sleep at night. (Dare I use the example of God-Emperor Trump? LMFAO)
……. Oh, I almost forgot. What about the $$$$$$$$$$??? Just look at the INSANE amount of wealth accumulated by every Religious Group / Cult / Supercult. All by simply convincing their Sheeple to GIVE it to them!!! Man, what a brilliant CON !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like I always say, Religions/Cults r MUCH more interested in “Profit” than “Prophet”!!!
Thanks Guy’s. There’s probably no end to opinions on this and I dare say it’s far too late for any certainty so we have to go with what sounds like sense. But let’s just say the Bible is the word of a god who loves us and who’s only wish is for us to all know and love him. If that’s the case, he has a strange way of showing it. This business of him never showing himself because we’re under a test of faith is surely a cop-out by religions to hide the fact he just doesn’t exist at all and the phrase ‘god fearing’, well that just helps to give the show away as well. We all know that bed wetting in children is most often caused by fear of a brute of a father. So he wants us all to be nervous wrecks?
Try saying “Yahweh” when u burp. It’s fun.
Too silly, childish, or offensive 2 anyone?
Hey, it’s a Monty Python World. Might as well join in. “If u can’t beat ’em, join ’em.”
Seriously though, try it. It’s fun.
I hear the GB are flat out lobbying the UN, trying to get them to start attacking the churches to fulfill their Bible prophesy and so bring about Armageddon for them. They seriously need out.
Ever noticed how homosexuals gravitate towards the Earths fault lines? Whenever there’s an earthquake, you can guarantee there’s Gay people near the epicenter. I’m sure Sir David Attenborough would be interested in this strange phenomenon.
Randy,
Perhaps you could send JWsurvey an e-mail.
Hi Dee2,
What I really need to do, is stop posting here :) … posting here is my guilty pleasure / distraction from doing my school work. Lloyd can run his site however he wishes of course, but I do find the magical moderation trap frustrating. I believe the site is trying to pick up overt evangelism and so may be looking for high levels of trigger words. Unfortunately, while I completely agree the last thing Ex-JWs are looking for is someone to preach to them, my posts tend to involve a number of words and ideas that might trigger such trapping.
In any regards, the moderators can review, modify or discard content as they see fit. Running a site like this no doubt involves a lot of work. For my part I do wish post something interesting and maybe even helpful to folks in transition out of the faith.
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy – yes running the site is a lot of work. However your posts are not being intentionally moderated by our team. We normally find posts from you and others trapped by the software filters, then manually approve them. We don’t approve of evangelism for religion, atheism or otherwise, so preaching for either viewpoint is not considered appropriate. But if you are just expressing your opinion in a non confrontational way that adds to the discussion on a given article, then we don’t have a problem with that. Any question – feel free to email us
JR
John,
Thanks. I see my posts are now visible.
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy
[ I don’t see why one couldn’t cite this as example of Christian ethics. The assumption being Christians believe in God and that he inspired the entire Bible (i.e. 66 books for most, 73 for Catholics).}
I suggest you not approach your college assignments in this way if you want to get passing grades. In work environments and school environments participants are not only expected to but also required to operated on the basis of facts. This place we live in, this world, is not a place where we can think whatever we want and base our actions on whatever we think. Those that try to are considered lawless, incompetent, or both. That theme is a primary theme in the Bible’s story. The toleration of that thinking only exists in places where its effect is not felt much. Once recognized as having a significant impact it is dealt with affecting the subjects adversely inside all communities that are adversely affected by such thinking and actions. Freedom to think whatever one wishes and base his/her actions on that does not exist in our working world. And it never will. The reason is that it is not beneficial. Since its not beneficial for humanity, and we know that, then God would also know it, if he exists, wouldn’t he? So the adding of thoughts to his written word, especially those that lead others against him would naturally go contrary to Bible teachings. And my comment was that because of its adverse effect the action to add any thought one chooses to is also dishonest.
The thought you quoted above I consider dishonest. You can give it the intellectual (school ) test. If you were taking a college test that was not asking for your opinions but only asked you to include factual information that you learned from a written document as your source, and that document was the Bible, and a multiple choice answer included the thought you and dee2 presented then that answer would be incorrect. It would not matter what your opinion was, it would be marked wrong if you chose that answer.
You can assume all you want. Most of the time you will be wrong when doing that.
Hi Messenger,
[I suggest you not approach your college assignments in this way if you want to get passing grades.]
I’m not sure of your back ground, if it is JW related or not. Those not familiar with JWs are sometimes surprised to learn the organization discourages education beyond high school. I am on my way to an Associates of Science then hopefully a Bachelors of Computer Science — the degree common to my working life.
I just completed a number of MAT courses from Algebra up to Calculus. As you can imagine, answers in this part are right or wrong, there is no in-between. I am now in ENG101 and that is more subjective. The assignment I’m working on now deals with persuasive argumentation. It breaks down the approach as logos, pathos and ethos, that is logic, emotion and ethics.
[So the adding of thoughts to his written word, especially those that lead others against him would naturally go contrary to Bible teachings. And my comment was that because of its adverse effect the action to add any thought one chooses to is also dishonest.]
Please be assured it is my sincere desire to always be honest. I also hold no objection to belief in the Bible as God’s word — provided it is not being used to justify mistreatment of gays or others. I also can appreciate that when one holds such a view it can be disconcerting to see the material discussed any other literature.
The irony I see here is two fold. First, believers, such as Watchtower authors, wander off into additions and speculations all the time. Many an Ex-JW will smile upon seeing the word “evidently” followed by some form of speculation about what the text means. Jesus, for example, could easily have used the word “overlapping” in regards to “this generation” but he did not, so saying “overlapping” is an addition.
Second, one of my main objections to how homosexuality is discussed in reference to the Bible orbits around adding material. Some say Leviticus condemns homosexuality, when in fact it does not say that. The condemnation is specifically male homosexual sex, to which it assigns a death sentence. No reference to lesbian activity is mentioned.
Some believers insist the Bible can guide us in regards to homosexual *relationships* that are entirely a modern-world concept. To say that Paul is addressing gay marriage is adding material to the text. The entire concept of gay marriage and long-term monogamous homosexual relationships just did not exist in his world.
My perspective may not be all that helpful to you. Perhaps if you run across a gay Christian man or woman, they may be able to explain better how they can be both gay and a Bible believer.
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy
In the USA multiple choice tests are not often given inside colleges and universities, but those types are frequently used in public schools thru the 12th grade. Wrong answers on multiple choice tests are often designed like your assumption was. Those wrong answers are often not just pulled out of the air but are designed from faulty reasoning on the subjects under discussion.
In colleges and universities many professors and teachers look first for correct answers on essays or tests, and secondly at your written format. Therefore accuracy is still paramount in colleges and universities. There are exceptions where assignments call for opinions, such as in some philosophy courses and some English courses. Your opinion is always correct, if requested. When you get to a university watch out not to be too opinionated with other assignments. Most university teachers will mark you down if your opinion contradicts your textbook and their teaching. In junior colleges I didn’t notice any teachers that graded unfairly for not agreeing with them (as I saw a couple university teachers do), but still while there you’d better give the textbook answers, even if some of those are not your beliefs.
Also, you might fulfill as many of your general requirements in junior college as possible before transferring to a university. Most general requirements are lower division and can be fulfilled at junior college. But it has to be done just so, don’t guess at it. See a counselor at your school, and they’ll tell you how to do that and give you forms stating what to take to get that done. It’s a lot less expensive way to go, so I advise it.
I don’t like to consider that what WT has done is something positive. The only way WT could be correct is if it is/was inspired of God. But by its own admission and also proven by its writings and our historical records it isn’t and never was. I was baptized a JW in the mid 70s.
Take care brother!
Hi Messenger,
Thanks for these comments. I’m just really getting started on my college courses. It is slow going since I also work full time, have a family and am fairly busy with my church (Valley Unitarian Universalist). The MAT courses were tested via multiple choice. The ENG101 course has been graded on various rubrics.
In the run up to 1975 the number of baptisms rose steadily. It peaked at nearly 300K. But in 1978 (or 77) it dropped to around 90K. I was 9 years old in 1975 and in my young JW-ish mindset I thought it certain that Armageddon would come on Dec 25th, 1975 to show that Christmas was wrong.
Cheers,
-Randy
You’re a game one, messenger. I’ll hand you that. The sticking point in most of your arguments is that you’re assuming the bible is fact. You weren’t there, so how can you know? Really, where the bible is concerned you’re mostly working on trust and not verifiable fact. You assume certain things in the bible to be fact because the bible says so. You’re doing a fine job of living in two worlds, messenger. You workday relies on you thinking critically at all times and the part of you reserved for your beliefs flips over into the unverifiable.
Have you ever noticed how we swear on the bible in court, but if we try to present scripture as evidence of anything, out the door goes your credibility accompanied by much eye rolling around the room. Courts demand fact.
Cheers.
Hi Outandabout,
If the Bible is not a fact, then what is? In chatting with my friend in Canada here is what I came up with…
I believe what I can measure
I believe there is much I do not know
I believe there is much it may be impossible to know
I believe in the scientific method
I believe what is moral should be judged by what elevates the happiness and well being of myself and others
I believe I should begin to worry I may be holding wrong views if such views conflict with what one finds on Wikipedia (discounting momentary vandalism)
I see no evidence for the existence of Gods or demons in our world
I believe the biological differences between male and female are extremely slight. This is why we don’t bother typing blood or organs by the sex of the donor.
I believe the majority of humans are heterosexual, however a minority are gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender.
I believe the exact reasons why LGBT individuals exist may be unknown, but there is no reason not to simply trust what these folks tell us about themselves. The advice Jesus gave not to judge applies (Matt 7:1-3)
I believe one should strive always to be kind, tenderhearted (Eph 4:31).
Cheers,
-Randy
What we’re discussing here is not whether the Bible is true or not. What’s being discussed is what its words mean. I’m not here to draw attention to self, nevertheless I’ve started and also built on programs within multiple public school districts, and those tasks were not limited to but did include writing curriculum for those programs. That’s part of my current employment. I mention this because we’re addressing the accuracy and meaning of Bible words and statements in this discussion. I’m aware that to assume just anything about those can be detrimental. Paul wrote, “Poison of asps is on their tongue,” Christ called some Jews, “vipers and hypocrites.” And anyone today watching TV news knows smears are detrimental by watching political stories. Let’s take the WT’s smear campaign against of all other beliefs. Is its smear campaign beneficial or detrimental? The use of repetitive lies to smear is a form of propaganda. That is going on with some commenters just as with WT.
The nature of this discussion is what the Bible says not whether it’s true. And I also raise the topic of motive when claims are made to distort its meanings that are such flagrant lies. Anyone claiming that Christian ethics include handing over and approving of handing over a father’s daughters to be gang raped is either a flat out liar, deluded, or has not only poor reading comprehension but also an impairment which prohibits them from understanding the world around them, or a combination of these things. The same type of accusations are often leveled at God that are not support in scripture.
messenger, does the Bible commend Lot or not? Just answer a simple question from the Bible instead of constantly throwing up red herrings.
Equally Caroline,
Does the Bible condemn Lot or not?
Not only christians would condemn the actions of a drunk
incestuous father, but also any sound of mind person of
any religion, or non religion would. Certainly such right
thinking people would never declare such a man righteous,
It’s argued that lot was righteous because of his faith,
but I’m sure there are many men guilty of incest, inside
WT, org, and outside of it that retain a strong belief in
in “Gods” promises set out in the Bible. But the sin, the
crime, is so gross, it could never be lessened by ever
attaching the term righteous to such people.
The believers thought stoping line to end rational argument
now comes into play. “If God declares them righteous then
who are we to argue”. Messenger, confusing a simple
proposition with semantics is not the way of a good
educator.
The way Lot offered his daughters to be gang raped instead of his male “guests” shows how little regard females were considered in the Bible.
Lot’s daughters is only one small example from the Bible of how horrible females were treated by the Jews in those days and considered of nothing more than breeders but in today’s world (in the United States anyway) treating a child like that would throw most parents into prison for the rest of their lives but in other parts of the world, it is perfectly acceptable to kill any female for almost any reason and where do those men get the approval for doing that to females?
They get their permission to do that to females from the Bible and unfortunately Watchtower still has the mindset that women are worthless breeders compared to their “heads”.
Ted
This is not an argument of semantics it is one of facts. There is no indication that God sanctioned Lot’s actions. There is not even proof that Lot believed in his own actions. He could have acted out of fear, which is likely, and in doing so his decisions could have been irrational. A lot of the comments coming from the other side (from only those here) are irrational and are not supported by any Christians. The lack of support by Christians proves my positions are true and your claims to be unacceptable by any that are not biased by hate.
Like I claimed earlier that comment by dee2 on a scholastic test would be marked wrong by any teacher. Why? Because it is wrong. It has no scriptural support. And one purpose for tests in schools is to see how accurate a students reading comprehension is.
One thing I can say for you folks is that you’ve adopted the WT tactic of claiming that any opinion of yours is a fact. That doesn’t work in the real world unless someone does not contradict you only to be nice. And maybe also because most people don’t really care about your opinions. But in the working, scholastic, or legal world your faulty positions would cost you. Here you pay no penalty, except from God, which is not readily paid. Of course you don’t believe in God. Yet you know the Bible claims God does not permit belief in him from all people. The actions of people would be a determining factor if God exists, wouldn’t you agree? And wouldn’t you also agree that your actions here would place in the group not permitted to see? That is according to scripture.
Messenger,
Let’s take the Bible for what it says and not add meaning to it just as you said we should.
This is what the Bible states:
– Lot offered his daughters to be gang-raped
– Lot engaged in incest with his daughters
– God sent angels to rescue Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
– Lot is a righteous and just man
What would a court of law conclude from the evidence presented?
outandabout
Experiences that include factual information pointing to God’s existence still are given and were given to some individuals in the past. There are common experiences connecting these folks and those realities in their lives and that link them together. They all have a link to the God of the Bible. This has happened to many, many more people than the 40 or so that wrote the Bible. These non-biblical writers were inspired in the same way as its writers by having had communications with the Bible’s god or one of his representatives that was giving them messages.
I know these folks are just a minority of our population, and I also know some people in other religions claim the same thing. I cannot speak to those others in different religions. But I guess their numbers are far less than the number of Christians professing such claims. Naturally I don’t expect you to believe everyone’s claim. I don’t. And I don’t expect those who have not had at least one of these experiences to have an equal faith as those that have.
However, there are statements in the written document’s that make up the Bible that point to its authenticity. I have not seen any of those statements refuted successfully on this site or anywhere else. Most members here use tactics like referring to someone else’s beliefs that they present as an expert. But no evidence is ever provided. If there is strong evidence to prove any of their assertions it would be known by the Christian community because that community is so large and so old. As an example, people here claimed Daniel was only written after the fulfillment of his prophesies and not before. I’ve seen no evidence. Therefore I claim that those who make such claims are doing what you claim I do, that is they base their belief on assertions they cannot verify.
messenger, if there is anyone who can prove in any god’s existence, they would have won the Nobel prize a long time ago and there would be no more debates. Everything you say is pointless because all we do is use the Bible and you never use the Bible. Everything you have to say to defend the Bible and it’s god is only your opinion, which is only your opinion. If you can come up with any evidence at all to prove that there was an invisible god that actually inspired the words in any of any Bible being used today, we are all ears.
Do you have any knowledge at all about how we got our Bibles? All of us who do know how we got any modern Bible translation, know that you are only speaking out of emotion and no facts.
Why keep it up? You have no evidence except your personal belief in the inspiration of the Bible and it’s god.
All of us who know about how we got our Bibles know that it will be impossible for you to admit you don’t know anything about the Bible but in your playing devil’s advocate, it gives us more and more opportunities to come back with more and more scriptures to expose the kind of god that you worship and the character of that god in the Bible and how disgusting it is, but hey, keep it up.
I love to keep it up for anybody new to this site and who don’t know anything about the god they worship because Watchtower kept them in the dark about Him and maybe, just maybe, they will also decide they would feel ashamed to say they were ever proud to be one of His Witnesses!!!
Messenger, Thinking people would say, The Bible can’t be true,
because of the flat out failure of its predictions. Jesus said he
would return within the lifetime of those of his own generation
to dish out punishment and rewards. 60 years later his followers
we’re still hanging on, as they are still. THATS EVIDENCE!
As for individuals, other than Bible writers who receive messages
concerning future events, this comes under the heading of
prophecy which Paul said would pass away, along with speaking
In tongues etc, When they would cease is not stated. –>
However, if I were a believer there is another possible source of
such messages that I would be very wary of. That is from some-
one whose prime objective is to get into people’s minds and
confuse and mislead them. Rev, 12:9.
Ted
Ted it sounds like you’re an atheist who still believes the WT. Quite a strange and interesting combination of beliefs, yet understandable since WT misled you, so I can see why you still think that it teaches Bible scriptures accurately. Look again at those scriptures that WT uses to claim God does not contact people in our day. Those speak of certain miraculous gifts that Christians access due to God’s spirit working through them. Contacts by God or his angels are not mentioned at all there. And naturally if a contact is made a message is delivered or the contact would have no purpose would it?
But also you like WT and some other Christians claim those scriptures from Paul which describe the seizing of different aspects of Christian living and you claim that occurred when the Bible was completed. You are wrong. Paul applied all that to himself, and he died before the Bible was completed. Yet he claimed then (at that time) he would completely know, and not have partial knowledge like he had when he wrote those words. So, what do you think he was talking about himself seeing completely and knowing completely? Probably God? That he did when he was resurrected when prophecy, partial knowledge, speaking in tongues and the other Christian gifts given to men would mean nothing and seize because those things would have no purpose.
Not only has the WT admitted to not only having complete knowledge about God, but it also admits it does not have complete knowledge of the Bible, as does every other Christian minister I’ve heard from. Therefore it’s a ridiculous assumption to claim that when the Bible was completed partial knowledge was done away with, and all would fully know (God) even as they are fully known (the words Paul applied to himself).
It’s also interesting that you hang onto the WT teaching that anyone contacted by spirits today have to have been contacted by demons. Interesting how you cherry pick what you claim the WT teaches as correct even when these two instances you mentioned take huge leaps in judgment to accept. They are not articulated in scripture, those are interpretations and add ons like dee2’s assertions. How could God not contact anyone and yet his spirit bear witness with theirs? What does bear witness mean?
Your comment about Christ returning in 60 years to bring Armageddon is not accepted by any Christians. That should tell you something since Christians have numbered in the Billions. Are you right or are those billions correct? I’ve only heard of a few with your opinion as just expressed, and all those comment on this site. Here, let’s describe that ratio using those (your number) against just one billion Christians.
3/I billion.
Kind of presumptuous to assume you know more than all those folks about a book you don’t even believe in.
Ted
Here are some possibilities describing what Christ meant when he said this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur. I’ll go from some of the most likely interpretations to the least likely considering those scriptural readings on their face.
1. The generation that would see the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens would also see the destruction of this world as we know it.
2. The generation that would see the miraculous signs in the heavens and then see the sign of the Son of Man would also see the end of the world.
3. The generation that would see the great tribulation, the miraculous signs in heaven, then the sign of the returning Christ would be alive to see the end of this world as we know it.
4. The WT interpretation I believe is the most unlikely because it also includes incidents that Christ claimed would not proceed his imminent return. Yet the WT interpretation has a possibility of being correct. Yours doesn’t for multiple reasons I listed in previous posts. But here’s one of those reasons. In Luke Christ claimed that all sorts of things would happen that Christians would see, but he warned them not to believe anyone who claimed his coming was imminent because, “the end is not yet,” according to Christ. Look up Luke 21.
There is no indication all those things occurred within 60 years of his death. One of those things that was to occur before the end of the world was that the Jewish population would be dispersed among the gentile nations and then regathered to Jerusalem before the end. That did not happen within 60 years of Christ’s words. Jews were not in regathered in Jerusalem as a nation until our day. I believe 1948. And when were they dispersed among the gentile nations? Christ said both those things would occur before he returned.
Christ answered three separate questions that were asked and possibly in the same order those were asked. Those questions were:
1. When will the Jewish temple be destroyed?
2. What will be the sign of your (Christ’s) presence or return.
3. What will be a sign of the end of this worldly system.
Answers given by him are:
1. Jerusalem surrounded by aggressors to answer question #1
2. Sign of the Son of Man in the heavens to answer #2
3. This sign is debatable as mentioned above for question #3 about the end of the world.
Ted
You are the one that attempts to complicate matters. I constantly repeat to drive home simple points you guys miss either as intentional diversions or because you lack understanding those points which is unlikely. Yes you can changed the discussion interjecting 10 different points into one comment. But why?
The fact is all of you are aware that no Christians ever claimed a father handing over his daughters to be gang raped is an example of acceptable Christian ethics. No doubt having some Bible education, although a distorted one, you also are probably aware that Biblical Christians and Jews prohibited actions labeled as fornication, and also those that prohibited violence not carried out by governments, parents, or for self- defense protection. And any Bible reader can easily understand your example about Lot does not contain anything in it to exclude those prohibitions from applying to that situation. You also know the Bible claims those prohibition came from God, which would reveal his opinion on Lot’s actions and deny the truthfulness of your claim with respect to God.
I keep it simple. You don’t. And using another WT tactic you blame your opponent of using the tricks you yourself use. Though separated from WT you retain many of its dishonest tricks. That’s why I claim you are dishonest, and not incoherent. Again I ask you to support your argument by naming the Christian groups that agree with your interpretations with regard to these issues involving Lot, his daughters, and his offering them to be raped. There must be many, if any, since this is not an interpretation of prophesy but simple defines Christian and Jewish ethics. So, who backs up your side that has any credibility?
I’d like to point out to readers that the same tactic being used to smear Christians and Jews in this post is more frequently used to smear their God. These folks make broad assumptions that go way beyond Biblical writings and then claim those assumptions are facts. Their retort to those who challenge their assumptions is to insist the challenger prove they are wrong. My position is that a simple reading of the material they cite proves that point. If it isn’t stated it isn’t there. Notice how their teachings often involve moral issues and not interpretations of prophecy or the usual Bible doctrines Christians differ over. No Christians I am aware of ever existing, either today or in past history, agrees with these type of beliefs of theirs. Their beliefs appear to be motivated by hate.
Another interesting point is that while they are atheists they usually cite God as the source of moral problems they assert. But how can a nonexistent god cause any type of problem? It would be more intelligent to cite individuals or populations of people for the immoral issues they raise, but that presents another problem for them. They look to humanity as their claimed source to solve all moral problems. They find themselves in a catch twenty-two situation.
OK, well thanks for going to the effort, messenger.
Now… you mentioned common experiences linking folk who believe in God’s existence which points to a form of proof that He does actually exist. I take it you meant the common thread among these people was the similarity of their individual experiences. So, what’s the story with folk from different parts of the world all recounting uncannily similar experiences of being abducted by aliens? These people are continents apart and don’t know each other from Adam, apparently. So what’s going on here? Also, do you not find it strange that sightings of Flying Saucers and the alien abduction phenomenon only starting to happen once the possibility of their actual existence came into being? That’s rather interesting and very telling, is it not? – this something not existing until we think it can. Do you believe in the existence of Aliens from outer space, messenger?
Thanks for your replies Messenger I appreciate the time you spent
on them. You claim some of us are still affected by WT ideas and
methods, but at least we no longer attend their meetings,
which you confess to doing so occasionally. you also stated,
“I go to the meetings for God and Jesus”. This is odd behaviour
since you also said, “They cannot Be trusted” . Hardly a place to
find G&J I would of thought. You also replied to Silas- “See you in
New World”, despite saying “WTS interpretation of scripture is the
most biased I have heard”.
You say you sometimes go out in FS but just use the bible, tell us
what is the end product of this? Are you going to direct people to
an org, that can’t be trusted? Or start a religion of your own?
Your thinking and actions seem highly illogical and confused,
yet you accuse others to be lacking in comprehension skills.
Isn’t it strange that the only people why saw the Jesus guy ascending to heaven after his resurrection were his disciples? No one else saw.
Apparently people weren’t in the habit of looking up back in the day. Even if you are not looking upwards and are looking straight ahead it’s still possible to see an upward motion rising towards to sky. Yet no one else saw Jesus’ ascension only his disciples did.
Can you imagine if all those Jews saw Jesus being taken up into heaven? Instant conversion and the stories they would tell! Mission accomplished with ease! – after all didn’t Jesus say he came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
Messenger, You do love the complicated route,
which surprises me as your an educator. from
the texts you cite, a half a dozen different
scenarios for the end time could be devised.
Let’s keep it simple! The last book of the bible
at Rev, 22:10. says “Do not seal up the words
of the prophecy of this book. “Because the time
is NEAR”. Which equates to IMMINENT .
The prophecies of Revelations covers everything
right down to the G, Tribulation and the New
Heavens and New Earth. Which by now should
be well established.
outandabout
Like I said previously in a post buddy I can’t speak to claims of supernatural experiences from people in other religions except to give the Bible reasons that those experiences possibly could have occurred. The answers being because of sicknesses or demon contacts. Also, simple mistakes might be an answer. The same might apply to space ship sightings, but I don’t know.
As I stated in my post there are elements in Biblical writings that convince not just me but millions of others that the Bible writers had different types of interactions with God. I also claimed those same things are going on today and factual proof is provided to the recipients causing them to believe God or a representative of his was the source of their interaction. In other words the same claim the Bible writers made, for the same reasons (being supplied some sort of factual proof) is the reason why they believe what they do. That’s the link I referred to.
And again I have heard of people who make the other claims you mention, but their is no way for me to verify those claims. So, I am left like you are when hearing from me, without verification. so in that sense I am like you there. Even in considering other Christians who make a claim about their individual experiences I cannot verify those. So in that sense we are all in the same boat.
But since the Bible is a written record, and to believers it includes proof of supernatural activity, then believers do have something tangible they can all base their beliefs on. There is proof to all God exists. Some just receive more proof than others. And notice that in the Bible these incidents are not just given for God to prove he exists. They had other purposes. I believe the same thing is happening today, that there are other purposes for contacts beyond proving the existence of God.
messenger, you are so right in we that we should take the Bible for what it says and not add meaning to it or change it’s meaning like what the Watchtower did when it comes to Jephthah and the killing of his daughter and offering her up as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah so that Jehovah would help him win his battles.
I agree wholeheartedly and so that is why I do believe the Bible when it says that Jephthah made a vow to Jehovah to burn up the first thing that came out of his house which just happened to be his only child and the Bible says that Jephthah fulfilled his vow and killed and burnt up his daughter to Jehovah as a burnt sacrifice for Jephthah to win his battle when he slaughtered those many thousands of men, women and children with the sword.
Face it. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth when you make comments like you did to Randy.
Caroline,
Let’s do exactly as Messenger says: take the Bible for what it says and not add meaning to it.
This is what the Bible states:
– Lot offered his daughters to be gang-raped
– Lot engaged in incest with his daughters
– God sent angels to rescue Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
– Lot is a righteous and just man
What would a court of law conclude from the evidence presented?
respect Jehovah’s witnesses. they are good people and they speak the truth. they care about us and our future. if they ever knock on your door, listen to them, they can save you and your family.
Listen to them, then ask them about the findings of the Australian Royal Commission, and watch them either blink in confusion or run away.
I agree with Jamie. they have helped my family so much it is unreal. I hope every one else can have the same happiness as I do.
Hi Jamie & Bobby,
That is good to hear. Most former Jehovah’s Witnesses have family and friends who remain in the faith. We love these people and continue to see them as good.
If you are interested in technical discussion about specific doctrines and why they may not be true, I recommend jwfacts.com. Paul Grundy, author of that site, has done a great job going over all the basic beliefs and discussing them objectively.
You’ll note the goodness of individual Jehovah’s Witnesses continue with them after they leave the faith. Sometimes an Ex-JW may express some frustrations and bitterness but please keep in mind many of us have put a lifetime into a faith that ultimately we feel was misleading and in someways manipulative.
Cheers,
-Randy
“Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise.”
Thomas Gray, 1716-1771.
Get the facts boys, it’s all out there.
@Alone in MD
Shove ur Anger Management up ur ass. I don’t buy ur little sob story about being married to a JW & seeking “truth” to help keep ur kids out of it. U r obviously manipulating the times & dates & placements of ur posts, inserting them in certain spots & fixing the dates to appear earlier – something I suspected with ur 1st post on this page. As far as ur “anger management” post goes, THERE’S NO WAY IT WAS POSTED ON JUNE 30. A coupla days ago, TOPS. Nice try, Weasel. Think I was born yesterday, genius? If this is how u spend ur days, u might b the one who needs professional help. Get a real hobby.
PS No doubt u’ll change ur pseudonym & try again. I’ll be waiting, Keyboard Warrior. U’re quite a scary dude, u know that? I’m assuming u’re a dude, tho u behave like a little girl. Passive-aggressive much?
TS
No one in honesty can claim you’re not colorful though. And pretty damn tough also.
TS…..you can’t apply the name ‘weasel’ to Alone in MD. That name already belongs to Dee2 and has a patent on it. ‘Deceptive weasel’, if my memory serves me, and served up by someone who’s name shall remain anonymous.
Thank u messenger. I like to entertain. After all, if u don’t have something nice to say, say it with flair. ;)
@Alone in MD
The thing with folks like u is, u think u’re clever, but at some point u ALWAYS slip up. That is why I am so confident that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is DOOMED. They will f*ck up, sooner or later.
@everyone else
I may or may not b posting/responding to posts for a while. My computer is driving me absolutely bat-sh*t crazy. It may b back 2 the Apple Store 4 real this time. Oh well, a perfect excuse 2 get out & cause some mayhem. :D
So Lot said:
“I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and DO TO THEM WHATEVER YOU LIKE; only do nothing to these men……..” (Genesis 19:8).
You would think a loving father who is concerned about his daughters would at least say:
“Go easy on them, they are just little virgin girls.”
Where’s Waldo? The millennial comment?
For the last time messenger we do not blame any gods
for anything. They are NOT there, they are all men’s
inventions often endowed wth the very worst of human
traits.
What’s irksome is religion using these mythological gods
to control people from birth, using threats of torment
and annihilation, mixed in with a spoonful of syrup,
It’s religious people like you that were blaming. not God,
Santa clause or the Flying Spaghetti Monster,
Good night.
It’s like as Mark Twain said: “Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.”
TwistedS,
We did it! We did it!
It’s the apostate millenium…….plus 3…….1003 comments to boot! LOL.
Bring out the bubbly, it’s apostafest time! Bottoms up!