The Jehovah’s Witness religion has long been known for its vocal disapproval of the LGBT community. On a doctrinal level it teaches that any practicing homosexuals are sinful and deserve to die, and that very soon God will kill any such person at the upcoming battle of Armageddon.
On an everyday level, whilst it does not press for government action or laws against the LGBT community due to a strict doctrine of total political disconnection, it does directly persecute it’s own members who are LGBT by requiring them to remain celibate for life. Should any of them refuse to do so, the religion demands that they be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends, with the additional threat of shunning for any family or friends who refuse to comply.
So a JW born into the religion and baptised as a young child, which is increasingly the case, and who grows up to discover they are gay, will be faced with a choice: deny their sexuality forever or lose everyone they have ever known.
In recent years Watchtower, the organisation that controls the Witness religion, has released a large number of videos that make strong anti-LGBT statements, and this year is no exception. However, it seems that the rhetoric is on this topic escalating to a worrying degree, as Witnesses are now being instructed to become directly confrontational when encountering gays, lesbians, or others who do not fit Watchtower’s narrow view of approved sexual identities.
One such example of the escalation in rhetoric is the new Watchtower produced video drama, “Remember the Wife of Lot.”
Remember the Wife of Lot.
The official webpage of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JW.org, has just released a series of videos that will play at the religions upcoming series of 2017 worldwide conventions. One of the videos is a three part drama entitled “Remember the Wife of Lot.” It can be viewed here.
Intended to be a modern day parallel to the Biblical tale of Lot in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah, Watchtower states on JW.org;
The warning Jesus gave nearly 2,000 years ago is more important than ever. See how Brian and Gloria learn to protect their family from the dangers Jesus warned about.
One of those dangers is, of course, the insidious and sinful LGBT community.
There are two scenes in which Watchtower’s message on homosexuality is showcased, but one of them really stood out to me as requiring more refutation than usual. Not just because of the nature of the teachings themselves; by this point I’m very familiar with the anti-LGBT message Watchtower promotes and sadly it no longer shocks me quite the way it would someone encountering JW.org for the first time. Rather it was the sheer bad manners the Witness characters displayed in the sequence that dropped my jaw.
Let’s set the scene.
Brian and Gloria are two Witness parents, whose daughter has invited some of her workmates back for a meal. One of these workmates is a girl called Tess. During the mealtime conversation, it emerges that Tess is considered to be one of the top interns at the company. The JW wife, Gloria, tells Tess that her parents must be very proud, and Tess replies:
“My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women.”
And thus begins one of the most excruciating, clumsy and crass examples of homophobic propaganda in recent Witness history.
The dinner party from Hell
What happens when Tess drops this “bombshell?”
Remember, the Witness characters have been taught that homosexuality is a grave sin worthy of death at Jehovah’s God’s hands when he brings a worldwide Armageddon, which Witnesses believe to be coming soon. Any baptised Witness who is unrepentantly romancing the same-sex is required to be completely shunned by all their JW family and friends.
Make no mistake, in the eyes of the Witness characters in this scene, Tess’ parents are doing something revolting and deserve to die unless they split up, become Witnesses and either marry men or remain celibate.
However, given the fact that Tess is not a Witness and is simply responding to a passing question, it seems like the polite thing to do would be to simply move on and continue the conversation about the internship. Yet instead the Witness characters act like she’s just slapped them all in the face and spat on the table. Their jaws drop, they stammer, and the father Brian gives Tess a stern stare of anger and disgust.
Next, in a display of what I can only describe as social incompetence of the worst order, the Witness character Gloria learns forward with a concerned expression and replies in a horrified tone that she’s just found her that her assistant at work is gay.
Seriously. This is what she does. Watch the video.
Gloria’s tone of voice and expression make it sound like she’s telling everyone that her assistant is a rapist, or has highly contagious mutant space-rabies, or just started their very own Adolf Hitler fan club.
Now, quite why she would say that to a person whose has just casually mentioned they have same sex parents, and in that tone of voice, I have no idea. She’s either deliberately being atrociously rude, or has absolutely no grasp of appropriate social interaction, or perhaps suffers from some unholy and catastrophic mix of the two.
Quite rightly, Tess demands to know what’s wrong with a same sex couple, since its clear her parents are being directly insulted. Incredibly, the video actually presents Tess as being the inconsiderate, rude one for daring to speak of and defend her parents in front of the JW family. Apparently, when asked about her parents, she should have either denied the existence of her loving mothers, or edited their genders so as to coddle the fragile sensitivities of the Witnesses.
The scene continues, with another guest joining the pushback against the JW’s and arguing in support of same sex relationships. Since this is a Watchtower video, the pushback doesn’t go into very much detail, as Watchtower has never been one to give a fair hearing the opposite side of the argument. However, even by the standards of the scene itself, it’s actually the immoral and wicked people of “Satan’s world” who end up coming across as the reasonable ones, and the righteous JW “heroes” who end up looking like they possess all the tact and social grace of a pack of flatulent, drunken hyenas.
For example: at one point Gloria appears to concede that maybe gays and lesbians are born that way, but Brian quickly intervenes and squashes this idea. He gives a lecture about everyone having free will, and outlines his sales pitch for Watchtower’s interpretation of the Bible, which condemns the woman’s parents loving relationship as harmful. Incredibly, he also states that Witnesses “don’t push their religion down anyone’s throat,” despite the fact that he and Gloria have just turned a passing mention of same sex parentage into a lengthly and toe-curling excuse to harangue and chastise the child of those parents!
What if the tables were turned?
Let’s switch this around.
Let’s say that Tess had Jehovah’s Witness parents, and that Brian and Gloria are non-Witnesses.
During the meal, it casually comes up in passing that Tess’s parents are Witnesses. Brian and Gloria react in shock, pulling faces of disgust, and then Gloria replies in horrified tones that she recently found out that her assistant is a Witness. When the other guests point out how rude Brian and Gloria are being, the couple do not apologise but rather they double down, lambasting Tess about how sinful her Witness parents are, and deliver a patronising sermon to try to push their own beliefs.
Can you imagine how rude that would be?
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, I’m sure you understand how hurt and upset that child of Witness parents would feel. Surely now you can understand how hurt and upset the child of a same sex couple would feel if treated in like manner? Even if you fully subscribe to Watchtower’s teachings on homosexuality, you must surely admit that the way the Witness characters acted in this scene is incredibly obnoxious and rude.
Yet this is clearly the way that the Governing Body wants you to treat anyone who casually mentions their sexuality or that of their loving parents.
How do you feel about that?
Why does JW.org create these videos?
If you are not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you may simply pass this video off as a weird bit of badly acted, poorly written, socially backward storytelling, but I’d urge you to understand the following point:
These videos are not simply intended to be entertainment for Jehovah’s Witnesses. These videos are directly intended to be training for all Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.
This video is directly intended to demonstrate to Witnesses how to handle a situation where a person casually mentions that they have two fathers, or two mothers. Witnesses worldwide are now expected to hassle, harass, and lecture them. Letting the comment simply go unmentioned is not on the list of options presented here, and every Witness watching the video will understand this.
If you think we’re exaggerating, in 2016 JW.org brought out a CGI children’s cartoon/instructional video explicitly encouraging young Witness children to lecture the young children of same-sex couples about the sinful nature of their parent’s relationship and the need to become Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to avoid death and gain paradise.
The video quite rightly drew worldwide condemnation, not only due to the homophobic nature of the message, but also due to the incredibly crass way it encouraged Witness children to harass their classmates and other non-witnesses in such a rude, unpleasant manner. Sadly it appears that nothing has changed at JW.org, if this latest video is anything to go by.
Now, it has to be said than many actual Witnesses will probably be far too polite to actually take the advice given here (and others might be reluctant to follow this advice from a sheer sense of social self preservation if nothing else) but nonetheless it illustrates how the leadership of Watchtower views the LGBT community and how it expects its followers to behave towards them.
Quite frankly, setting all issues of theology and the human rights of the LGBT community to one side, it appears that the leadership and scriptwriting teams at JW.org are in desperate need of a strong lesson in manners.
For a more detailed examination of the homophobia on display in “Remember the Wife of Lot,” check out the following videos and articles from JW Survey founder Lloyd Evans.
Article in the Huffington Post on the homophobic aspects of Remember the Wife of Lot
You can also watch a more detailed breakdown of the wider aspects of cult manipulation and abusive doctrine in Remember the Wife of Lot as part of this video from Lloyd Evans. The link will take you to the part of the video where the drama is discussed.
Follow me on twitter @covertfade
Follow Lloyd Evans on twitter @cedarsjwsurvey
Follow JWSurvey on twitter @jwsurveyorg
Tony Morris is not of the anointed because if he is obsessed with package in tight pants, then where will this obsession go when he is in heaven seeing naked men on earth. Jehovah does not select people who cannot make the change before they are brought to heaven. Peter walked this same line of keeping his anointing or not. Every day both wicked angels (demons) and righteous angels see naked humans in bed, at home, on beaches, in bathrooms. If they could materialize during the 1000 years as they did before the Flood, then why would God select someone who is obsessed at LOOKING. He doesn’t and that’s why the partakers are 7000 not 10,000 not 14,000 not 18,000 left of the 144,000. The WatchTower should remind themselves that Sodom if 30,000 had 15,000 wives and daughters who died because ten men didn’t evacuate them. It is like the JWs who died in Columbia when Jehovah’s volcano exploded with many advanced-warnings and the JWs were killed by Jehovah because he has told them not to go into valleys by following elders obeying them to get buried in the kingdom hall by a mud flow of melted snow cap. Jehovah is not one to be mocked, and this obeying elders does mock Jehovah. And has for 40 years. The death of the GB is now this year in Jehovah’s hands soon to occur, and blood will pour on New York soil. As Paul said YOU have begun ruling without the rest of the 144,000 kings who are not ruling yet.
Rick is sick. Gobbledigook. BS. I HATE the Gov Bod but you are nuts man! You do more harm than good. What are you smoking?
@rc8madbrit, I concur. Look at Ricks FB page. Strange stuff. Signs of a troubled mind. That’s all I’m saying. And, sadly the previous posts are incoherent.
@peggy. Rick is a waste of time and has a lot of hate in his heart and nonsense comes forth from his mouth. Rick go somewhere else please and spill your nonsense. You are very sickly.
there are just plain “weird” people on the site.
Be kind. The cult of GB is extremely damaging. Some of us fared better than others X
Thanks for the article and links to the Post and video. Watchtower attempts anti- LGTB rhetoric in the video. I watched the video I can picture the same scene acted out in my past with JW parents arguing about my gay friends. I’m free of it now.
I thought Jado made confusing comments, but Schiller takes the cake.
@Ricardo,
I am glad my comments confuse you! What about this?
*** yb74 p. 178 Part 2—Germany ***
In another case a sister who signed was raped by the Russians during the last few days of the war and then murdered by them.
Good news for you! I have something which will not confuse you, here it is: “Angela Merkel says Europe can no longer rely on US or UK – and must ‘fight for its own destiny'”
Are you still confused?
@Jado,
No, not confused anymore. That comment cleared things up a lot. Thanks for the input.
I not agree with a so strong propaganda by JW, however If I was gay I don’t give a f***k about them, you know, I just do what I want, I don’t care about religions…
@Parzival – Many gay/lesbian are non-religious, even if they are spiritual, and many are non-Christian specifically because of the anti-same-sex message interpretations by many, many Xtian denominations. However, in many mainline Protestant denominations gay and lesbian Christians have spoken-up and introduced the oft controversial topic of inclusion into the Church. Those churches often have adopted forward-thinking resolutions to allow same-sex attractants (SSAs) and females ordination as ministers and bishops; it has been a very hard-fought, hard-won journey.
But, in other religions, like Islam, even Orthodox Judaism, Mormonism, 7DA, and other evangelical and fundamental Christian denominations gays/lesbians face a more difficult struggle to convince a centralized, male-dominated, hierarchical/top-down authoritarian leadership for roles within the church while expressing their humanity and sexuality. Similarly, in the Witnesses, it is difficult to voice expression of sexuality without automatic condemnation.
And, it is becoming abundantly clear that this group has tilted fully into the prejudiced and hateful mode of bashing anyone who “looks” unorthodox–and, even if one dresses as their gender, if the affectations are not “gender-aligned” one can become an outcast and ostracized.
As you say, most gays/lesbians will harden themselves and not give a damn about JW’s, but what about the teen who grows up believing they’re in a believing community, buys into the JW belief system, then discovers as they’ve hit puberty that they’re not from the cookie-cutter mold all this crap has been created to address? Suicide. Depression. Anxiety. All of these happen to someone caught up in the JW mess.
But, on this video, it’s amazing that Tess says, “I have two mothers” and immediately we are to jump to conclusion that she’s in a lesbian household? What about that daughter/son raised by her single-mother and an aunt, or grandmother? or, a single-mother and an elderly charitable sister who opened her home? This video comes courtesy of James Dobson’s Focus on the Family and Family Research Council (501c3s) philosophy where “Heather Has Two Moms” was criticized.
However, to the credit of Dobson, he never has declared women as inferior beings, yet man and woman assigned biblical roles, which the Men of Watchtower seem to doggedly interpret women as inferior to men in all aspects and contexts not limited to spiritual. There’s not a scripture verse the Men of Wt can hide behind on that one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Has_Two_Mommies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Lives_with_Eric_and_Martin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rainbow_Cubby_House
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daddy%27s_Roommate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson#Views_on_tolerance_and_diversity
What would be classic is if someone from the LGBT community would apply for an injunction to not have these videos shown at the RC.
Now that would be something to talk about.
In the first part of Watchtower’s series, “How to bully people.”, we saw how Watchtower teaches its people on how to shun people who do not agree with Watchtower. In other words, how to be a bully to people who are being shunned. Every man, woman, and child needs to know how to become a bully.
In the second part on “How to bully people” series, the rank and file are being taught how to bully the LGBT community. When the LGBT community talks about their non-traditional family way of life, a “Glare of disapproval”, or “the stare” needs to be invoked. So, instead of keeping their mouths shut, a wonderful speech on why God does not approve of the LGBT community or their practices. Oh, how wonderful! My mother always told us kids when we were younger that if we did not have anything nice to say, then say nothing. But, Watchtower feels the need to teach their people how to stare instead.
Nothing better on a Saturday morning and knocking on a LGBT family’s house and give the householder the Stare. How delightful. Being judgmental to people is how Jesus got it done. Shame on you, Anthony Morris III. Shameful conduct by the leadership of Watchtower Babble and Tract Society should not be tolerated by society.
Ha ha ha…..well done Doc. Surely, there are even devout JW’s who feel some sort of shame or discomfort at this.
Keep it up Watchtower! Don’t let those followers accept anything new but remember, trying to keep followers locked in the past is like pushing on a spring that gets stronger and stronger until one day, you’ll be forced to give way under the weight. JW’s want to be liked and respected in society and not mocked as idiots. They’re being mocked now. New Light will have to be found. Best start working on it now. You’ve already been forced by science (opps) to admit being gay is genetic, now you need a stealthy program to get JW’s to accept gay marriage. I’m sure that over a period of a decade you could quote Jesus plenty of times on the merits of accepting people no matter what, but you can’t suddenly rush into it. Mustn’t startle the sleeping sheep lest they wake up. That’s how it’s done, right?
Is it right for a registered charity to be producing anti-gay propaganda?
How about contacting the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) and filing a complaint against the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for this propaganda.
I’ve already emailed the Charities Commission asking whether or not they find it acceptable for a registered charity to be producing anti-gay propaganda. No reply.
Just a smidgen of a thought here… what my first question was when I watched the video , was this…. why is a JW woman bringing home worldly friends? I mean ‘Danger Will Robinson!’… then we get down to the nitty gritty bit… but did you notice Tess said ‘oh this should be fun’ right at the start… So obviously the audience is being prepared for ‘worse yet to come!’ Hey ho…
I had this thought too – that JWs are so often counseled not to have worldly friends and associates. Don’t go to the movies or out to lunch – even business lunches and dinners and building relationships to further your career and develop a rapport with clients and customers was portrayed negatively in a recent video.
You aren’t supposed to attend the neighborhood cookout or have dinner in the home of the friendly couple next door who kindly invited you to make you feel welcome. Heaven forbid you let your children have a play date!
You are not supposed to have anything other than the bare minimum of contact outside of what is absolutely necessary at work or school.
Remember last year where the good sister decided it was inappropriate and detrimental to her spiritual welfare and marriage to have coffee breaks with the ladies at work?
But that rule is conveniently and hypocritically overlooked so they can shoehorn this anti-gay message into a ‘natural’ setting.
What’s worse is I believe this wasn’t innocently tone-deaf. I’ll bet they discussed it and determined it wasn’t appropriate to show Witnesses being so judgemental on householders’ turf – door-to-door, at their homes. Or in a public place – at one of the carts perhaps, or at work or in a restaurant.
But can you mistreat and harass someone in your own home? Why, yes! Yes you can! They’re in your space. And that makes it ok.
Someone at HQ had the conversation and decided this was not only ok, but a positive example of how we should act. And this contrived situation that contradicts other hardline counsel got a stamp of approval.
Let’s ignore everything we were taught about bad association and suspend disbelief so we can focus on the more serious issue of having homosexual parents and how loving and respecting the PEOPLE WHO RAISED YOU to be a responsible adult makes you a bad person and you and they are deserving of death.
Let’s forget that if the rules about keeping separate from the world and not making friends outside the congregation had been followed the family wouldn’t be having this issue at all because Tess wouldn’t even be at the table!
Let’s just glaze over how all of it conflicts with Jesus’ message of love AND Watchtower’s message of separatism. #totalfail. :-/
Beautifully said falling-angel.
Exactly! typical case of bending the rules to make their point stand out more because how else would Daddy Brian have had the chance to make those remarks to Tess.
Excellent points Caroline. I also noticed that it’s never the ‘worldly friend’ that’s the gay person. It’s always their parents! God forbid that a jw should actually associate with a homosexual!! If they directed this towards a gay person face to face they could be charged with hate crimes! Oh yes, they’ve clearly had a sit down session on how to present this info. They even had the friend dress in a stereotypical lesbian style and gave her a rebellious attitude to match! So predictable!
My own son is gay and his coming out was a primary reason for my leaving the cult. In fact, he didn’t ‘come out’ I outted him myself when I was being a good jw parent and snooping on his online chat. He was only 15 years old. I’d thank god for blessing me with a gay son if I still believed in Him. I could’ve been stuck in that cult fixed mindset forever!! I don’t mean to offend by this but it was my son who set me free- not Jesus! I only hope more people wake up as a result of this insidious propaganda. My son hasn’t seen his jw siblings in years! He was never baptised but they’re shunning him regardless. I have utter contempt for the GB – their rules regarding shunning non baptised/ not disfellowshipped immediate family has caused a huge rift in our once happy household.
This video is not only full of spiteful judgement of others it also undermines the parent/child bond! Suggesting it’s ok for children to judge their parents lifestyle if they don’t follow the GB book of rules…even if you’ve enjoyed a fantastic childhood under their guardianship.
Horrible, horrible, horrible (3 times for emphasis! Lol) what happened to ‘Honour your mother and father so it may go well with you’
Hi Imgonaburn! I dropped off for a little while. The end of my pregnancy was awful and I nearly died in childbirth, but she made it and I’m still here. How are you?
Hiya! I dropped out for a while too.
Oh my days!! You’ve been through the mill chuck. I’m so glad you are ok!! How’s things going for you now? I really hope it works out for you and your OH. Has becoming a parent helped at all?
I left my husband for 6 weeks and lived with my dad during that time. Anyway…long story short. My husband has quit the religion too. I took a chance. Told him to wake tf up or f the f off. He’s not fully awake but he’s made a choice.
He told my jw adult kids that he wants to be with me so he’s not going to meetings any more. They already shun me even though I’m not dfd. My daughters husband response to that was if he stops going to meetings they’ll treat him the same way they treat me. No contact. No communication. Not allowed to see our grandbaby. It’s disgusting! My husband doesn’t smoke, swear, celebrate Xmas or say anything negative about the witnesses. So, even if you’re still living to the same standards as a jw but just fall away- you get shunned!! It’s all BS. They’ve done me a favour!! I’ve got my husband back. ♥️
As soon as they realised I won’t return to this judgemental, homophobic cruel religion they washed their hands of me. Now their dad has chosen to stick with his wife (Their mother!!) they’ve tarred him with the same brush.
I felt tight forcing him to choose between me and his faith but I did it -so if that makes me a bad person then I guess I’m a bad person.
I’ve no objection to him seeing his jw kids. They are the ones who shun family not me. Idk what the future will bring, but for now I’m happy as I can be. Xx
Interesting developments for you, Imgonaburn. I have a lot to say about my situation, but not here. I’m going to wade through that old post where you gave me an email address. Wrote it down and lost it.
Bibytybobyty@gmail.com x
There’s two “moral” standards in the Bible, the Old Testament “moral” standards and the New Testament “moral” standards. The O.T. moral standards would be to stone a homosexual to death and that is that is the “moral” standards that Jehovah’s Witnesses aspire to because it’s the god of the Hebrew Scriptures and the author of the Law given through Moses is the God that Jehovah’s Witnesses love and worship.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have no idea what the Bible’s “moral” standards are. They just assume that they are following the “Christian” example from the Greek Scriptures.
I was with my daughter yesterday who had attended her district convention over the week-end and I am not allowed to discuss anything about the assembly or the Bible or anything even like that in order to keep her company and being nice to me but I have to put up with her calling me “crazy” over and over again and take it with a smile. That is her only way of excusing me “leaving” Jehovah and keeping my company. If I even hinted that she is being misled, she would absolutely not talk to me ever again.
That is my world.
When our 3 kids were growing up, they were not allowed to go anybody else’s house that weren’t Witnesses but the Witness kids they did associate with were very judgmental because if your dad was an elder, you were good association but if your dad wasn’t an elder, they were afraid to associate with my kids.
When our kids were invited to the other kids’ homes for play dates in their classes all I could tell those parents was that their kids could come to our house but our kids couldn’t go to their houses. It was so embarrassing for me to tell them that and I could not tell them why (the reason why was that their kids were “bad” association). I can always remember the look of confusion on their faces when I would tell them that my kids could not go to their homes but their kids could come to my house.
We weren’t supposed to have any friends who weren’t Witnesses. If we saw a fellow Witness out and about with somebody who wasn’t a Witness, they were “bad”. We recognized anybody in town who were Witnesses and who weren’t Witnesses and everybody knew who we could be with and who we couldn’t be with and if we wanted to be “good” we only associated with fellow Witnesses.
I judged as “bad” a fellow Witness sister who walked with her next door neighbor every day and thought she was “bad” because she had a “worldly” friend. That is the way that we were programmed to think. That is the way any “good” Witness thinks but the world doesn’t know that about Witnesses.
When I took classes at the college last winter, I struck up a friendship with a fellow woman from my town and when I told her that Witnesses aren’t supposed to have any friends who aren’t Witnesses, she was shocked. She was also shocked to find out that Witnesses practice shunning anybody who leaves the religion.
The reason the Society has those videos about not inviting people over to your house and not associating with them at work or anywhere else is that “worldly” attitudes might rub off on them and sadly most indoctrinated Witnesses follow the unwritten rules.
The Society won’t come right out and say in writing that your friends and relatives and neighbors and classmates are bad association if you associate with “worldly” friends and relatives but JW’s think they are following Bible “moral” standards by not associating with “worldly” people even if it’s your own relatives and people they work with.
I hated being put in that position when my kids’ parents asked if our kids could go over to their houses for play dates but I followed the rules. Most of the kids who were allowed to visit with their “worldly” friends did leave the religion and the Society knows full well that that is what will happen and that is why they are so serious about all the insinuation videos and talks and articles.
They are too cowardly to put it all in writing.
Amazing how the “light” coming from Wt– that shining beacon up on the city walls — never seems to be able to eradicate the darkness of Satan and alleged human “zombies” ?
After last year’s “Worst Convention Ever,” I thought perhaps this year’s content would be tamer, but this is cringe-worthy. I’m sure the two moms would be much better parents than many witnesses.
Can you imagine if a JW in a work environment gave the stare to a fellow workmate that was gay. Do you think the management of any company would allow such a work environment to exist?
Management would probably let go of the JW for causing a hostile work environment. And rightly so. Companies do not need any harassment in the workplace. They need workers to work well with one another.
Watchtower Babble and Tract Society better be aware that their underlying donations could be adversely effected if they decide to choose this unwise path. Remember Watchtower lives in a bubble. Many things that they say would not fly in the real world.
@ Doc Obvious:
“Remember Watchtower lives in a bubble. Many things that they say would not fly in the real world”.
Absolutely, correct. Most if not all things they say do not and never will fly in the real world; starting with their cold calling door to door nonsense. Topped off with non-voting, so called ‘political neutrality’ and misinterpreted prohibition (eating) against blood transfusions, and higher education.
The list goes on and on ad nauseam; however do the ‘sheeple’ want to listen to those that find these things out. Absolutely not! Why? Because they are apostates and are to be shunned. I have a couple of non-intrusive ways to get the word out to the ‘sheeple’ without verbal abuse or confrontational picketing with signage outside with megaphones blaring.
For example, ‘Cool Aid’ packets can be inserted in plain white envelopes containing a “message” showing their own writings entitled “1975- Watchtower whitewashing” and left in contribution boxes at their assemblies, for example. Maybe looking into renting a plane with “jwsurvey.org ” on a banner flying over the convention site during the lunch-time intermission and after the session ends? Absolutely, nothing anyone can do about advertising and its in the sky not trespassing on the convention site. Absolutely non- obtrusive. It’s only natural that people look up and read it; and they dare not tell anyone “not to look up” or “ignore it” from the platform as that is what would make most ‘sheeple’ do exactly that. Works great at the beach advertising for seafood buffet restaurants.
Panic stricken, fear mongering, pedophile protecting, homophobic paranoid purveyors of pathetic promises of a ‘dancing panda’ paradise no one will live to see. Very sad commentary but very true, unfortunately. Keeping adherents from leaving by threatening to shun them is truly the epitome of cult like behavior, not Christian love. WAKE UP ‘SHEEPLE’, you have nothing to loose but your chains!
From the article: “He gives a lecture about everyone having free will”
I never could understand this as an argument against homosexuality. If you think you’re making a choice to be straight then I’ve got news for you: you’re gay. I don’t think any straight person feels like it’s a choice to be straight, they’re just straight. Why should we assume that it’s any different for gay people (interpretations of stone-age religious text not withstanding) then? I certainly wouldn’t like to be lectured by a bi person that thinks my “choice” of being heterosexual is limiting and sexist so why is it reasonable to do essentially this (in reverse) to them?
@karl763,
If a person was born a pedophile, does this give him an open license to practice what he was born as, or should he use his free will to curb his desired behaviour ?
I’ve consulted the Bible on that one, Ricardo. Apparently, pedophilia is fine and dandy but homosexuals are to be put to death, so I guess pedophiles will be looking forward to Paradise. Watchtower has even been kind enough to give them a trial run on that one.
Which group do we suppose is causing the most harm in society – pedophiles or gay’s?
Fundamentalism is fundamentally flawed and causes intelligent people to have unintelligent thoughts.
I’m an ‘old school’ sort of guy and homosexuality does cause me slight discomfort but with each passing generation gay’s will become more acceptable. What else are we do do? Do we condemn Autistic people as well? It wasn’t too long ago that some school teachers punished children for using their left hand instead of their right.
We’ve been stupid, but now we’re trying not to be. We’re trying to follow the example of Jesus because clearly, his Old Man is a freakin’ lunatic.
Hang on to Jesus if you must, Ricardo, but ditch the Fundamentalism. It’s doomed because of it’s own stupidity.
@outandabout,
The point is that society’s standards change. A hundred years ago it was legal to marry a 14 year old, now it isn’t. At the same time, homosexuality was condemned, now it’s okay. In a hundred years who knows what changes we will see.
However, the Bible’s standards have not changed. So if a Christian group live by the Bible’s standards rather than society’s changing standards, isn’t it bizarre to condemn them?
Ricardo, a “Christian” group has every right to decide if they will accept homosexuals into their group or not. Every group has that right but they don’t have the right to think that they have the “right” to expect the rest of the world to live by their group’s rules. That is what religious groups do. They all think they are the only one and true religion and their god is the one and only true god and so they think that they have to speak up for their god because their god is unable to speak up for himself.
That is so arrogant and myopic.
Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t the only ones that are arrogant and think they are speaking for God. They just put out the stupidest videos that look like cheesy soap operas with the worst actors, thinking they are putting out the best videos with the best actors.
If I hadn’t woken up 3 years ago, I would have gone to the assembly this summer and have been rolling my eyes over how stupid and nonsensical that video is. I am not that stupid and I am sure there’s tons of Witnesses who will be looking at that video and thinking the same thing.
Those of us in the “real” world know how stupid that video is, believe me.
Hi Ricardo. You have to ask yourself why these changes occur.
If following U.S. style fundamentalism is the only way to go, then you have to wonder why the U.S. Bible Belt could also be known as gay porn belt, divorce belt, teen pregnancy belt, meth belt, food stamp belt, welfare belt, poverty belt, low wage belt, HIV belt and the STD belt.
The Federal Bureau of Prisons will tell you that 83.76% of inmates are Judeo- Christians.
I know you’re not included in any of those figures, Ricardo.
Lets take a look at Sweden which has a very high rate of atheism ( I’m not promoting atheism here, just using this as an example for non- fundamentalism) and is one of the most socially coherent countries in the world, that is, until Islamic Fundamentalism arrived and it’s now been touted as the rape capital of Europe.
Suppressing natural instincts doesn’t work. We have to accept them and work with them where possible.
Christians are not to be condemned but it’s time for a closer look.
I was looking forward to Stephen Fry’s blasphemy trial and was disappointed when the church didn’t want to go there. Seems they lack conviction since they can’t just lock people up to shut them up any more.
@outandabout,
There were some interesting thoughts expressed by yourself and Caroline. I am glad we are able to discuss in such a respectful way. To receive another point of view is helpful.
There was a statement you made which still doesn’t sit right in my head. You said,”Suppressing natural instincts doesn’t work.” What about someone who is a habitual thief. Should that person try to suppress their desire to steal, or how?
Ricardo, I have to comment on your comment when you say you have a problem with the comment that it is almost impossible to suppress natural inclinations and comparing that to having the urge to steal.
I can remember having a huge crush on a certain boy who was a year older than I was and I had a huge crush on that same person until well into my adulthood when I moved away.
In the 3rd grade, it did not even occur to me about having sex with that boy. I was just “in love” with him even though I didn’t really know him. I also had girl friends all through my childhood too but never a “crush” on another girl . I never would have thought to have sex with my girl friends or kiss them but to kiss the boy I had a crush on was always there for me. I was never sexually attracted to girls but I had crushes on several boys and later men in my life.
Having sex with a person is not what makes one person attracted to another person. That person is of a certain sex (male or female) and we fall in love with a person because we fall in love with that person. We can’t help those feelings. They are just there.
Sex for the pleasure of sex is more about men I think. I think when men look at a woman, they may think about having sex with that person because that is the way men are wired but women are wired for love and when they really love somebody, they will love having sex with that person.
When a person has a crush on a person, they can’t help those feelings. Being judged as morally bad for having those feelings because it’s not the “normal” feeling as males and females instead of males having crushes on another male and or females having a crush on another female is not having empathy for other people. People can’t help those feelings.
Normal people have empathy and narcissists only think about what they think and feel and judge others on what they think and believe and judging children who can’t help how they feel as bad people is so horrible to do that to them and in my opinion unforgivable.
Jesus even condemned people for thought crime. Can anybody help having thoughts? The “Christian” Jesus religion wants people to feel guilty about not only doing stuff but thinking stuff. It works for religion to make people feel guilty about even being born so that you will go to a church (any church) to be “saved” because there is no way anybody can’t help even having certain “thoughts”.
I remember being insanely jealous when I even thought that my husband had sexual thoughts about anybody else besides me. It was insane thinking but it was biblical.
Hi Ricardo, good point and I should have been more specific. I was talking about gay people, but, in the case of thievery, that’s more complicated I guess because people thieve for different reasons, sometimes to just stay alive. In the case of pedophilia though, well……and they’re born that way, so yes, suppression is called for. What other way is there. Gay people are usually consenting adults and what they do in the privacy of their own home should be their business and nobody else’s. This business of gay parades and gay pride will eventually pass, but for now they’re celebrating their new found freedom. Let’s just let them do that while we take heart at the release from oppression of another group of people.
Hey what about the pinkey Rings now being worn by members of the GB, yeas it may not mean anything today but makes you wonder, in one of the Publications on the Great Teacher, an article on teaching our children to be aware of Preditors on page 172 i think, it shows the male adult wearing a pinkey ring, when i saw that i yelled out a big hello lulah, pretty sick ORG, some great comments above, will be interesting to see what the majority of people think about this,
An elder once told me to never trust a man that wears a pinky ring.
Oh & To add, why would any person governed by love treat a child visitor like that in the 1st place
As I said before….I am with Lots Wife…salt block! Yep! To judge a Gay or Lesbian as worthy of death…and yet a pedophile has a good chance…or what ever the heck Lot was…approved of by God? Does not sit well with me….No matter what…gonna still do the Ellen dance! :). Be kindly to Rick..having anything to do with JWOlogy will do it to a person, do not have to be smokin much…Take it from me …I know! Kool aid and “air shows”… gonna be good!
All I noticed was how hot the wife was. Nice, my woman from Tokyo! Also, how one again it was the wife that was wrong (never the husband). And I do think they would have more viewers if they would have used a lipstick lesbian instead of the butch one.
Seriously, what did Tess do wrong? Just like the Caleb and Sophia video. What is with this obsession with confronting the children of the LGBTQ community? All she she did was get born to parents that she loves. It is terrible to attack someone publicly for a decision that they made for their life that doesn’t affect you. But, it is even more abhorrent and completely nonsensical to go after the children of these couples. Even you think your worldview is right, what are the children supposed to do to appease you? Get born to different parents?!
@Anonymous – visiting the sins of the mothers and fathers upon the sons and daughters? or not? maybe?
Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
Yes, they do.
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and
No, they don’t.
Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20
carm . org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not
thetorah . com/punishing-children-for-the-sins-of-their-parents/
www . patheos . com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/06/02/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-sins-of-the-father/ (**some blogged articles at this site refer to posters/posts from jwsurvey.org, this article does not)
Since the two lesbian moms were never JW’s, there’s no covenant bond, and is there a “covenant” with “other sheep”–did they sip and eat at the last Passover-replacement? thus, no “visiting of the moms sins onto the daughter” is valid in any form or fashion. The scowling at the daughter are reflective of men’s (AM3 and his like-minded women’s) prejudicial thinking. Nowhere does it seem apparent that they are putting this video forth in an effort to minister and recruit children of lgbt or lgbt themselves, so let that be the clarion call to arms, and war, on the Watchtower.
Anonymous,
They’re supposed to wake up to the fact that they’re living in a terribly sinful, death sentence situation. Become JDubs (because of the fine witness the father gave) then shun their soon-to-be slaughtered parents.
Remember the wife of Lot. How stupid. Homosexuality is awful but it was okay for Lot to get drunk and have sex with both of his daughters and make them both pregnant by him right after his wife had died but that was okay because he was drunk.
Pretty fanciful story isnt it.
Just recently I had the priviledge of mntng a family of 2 gals and their Moms…organic farming, the kids are hmeschooled…very intelligent on so many topics way beyond their young years, the Moms are hard working, trying their best to live a quiet, peaceful life and enjoying the earth and all in it. We have been influenced by the negativity of Jw.org….Thanx Covert for the excellent compilations of this post, I have not as yet, and maybe will not watch the Jw video…mks me soo angry, and disgusted. One is not allowed to show fellow feeling and kindness to people, no matter who or what, before doing a brain check as to what Jwology says first, it’s a given. I did not shun a girl going thru a transition wy back who was dfed, i wanted her to realize, no matter what the Org. said, I was there for her, she was like my own kid, and I could never turn my back on my own child. Damn the Gb for telling parents to…damn for parents who listen and obey…you NEVER deserved the precious priviledge of being a parent! Flatulent, drunken hyenas! ;-)) I think I know where that came from! Good! I must say…thanks to abiding by Jwogre ways…I to have behaved as such…and have given the look, or been given the look, many a time. So sad that these hypocrites can look down their ringed pinky finger…and point out who is not worthy of living! Those pointing…usually have…dirt in their drawers, so no worries.
I was a member for a few years of a Bethel family, and a number of resident/workers were gay. We all knew it but no action was taken. At least three partook of the emblems annually!
Not surprised at all, Quintin,
Bethel services does not encourage sexual relationships or marriages. Thus the reason for homosexual relationships if you want to stay in Bethel service. God forbid that two people should marry and start a family.
I know of at least two couples that were ‘asked to leave’ (read :given the boot out the door). Both couples were not trained to do anything but some minor office work, (typing and filing) and perhaps some carpentry work or laundry work. Needless to say, one couple divorced after their two children attained majority and died out of the Truth completely disillusioned and poverty stricken. The other couple live on the charity of their congregation without much Social Security income in their old age as you need 40 quarters (10 years of work) to qualify. Of course there are ways of getting Social Security however it would take paragraphs to explain it all. Certainly a pathetic, waste of a perfectly good life. However, I digress.
All such religions that live a monastic lifestyle, Bethel service is a monastic lifestyle, have a propensity towards homosexual relationships. The Catholic monasteries are a good example of such behaviors. People are sexual beings, God made us that way so as to continue the species through propagation (sexual reproduction).
I believe that is why homosexuality is condemned in the scriptures as is spilling seamen on the ground (as is the case of Onan Gen. 38:9) and/or masturbation. These acts result in non-procreation and thus no ‘filling the earth and subduing it’; which is in direct conflict with God’s command to Adam and Eve. We can’t have that, can we? Practicing birth control by anything other than self-control? Are you kidding me?
I guess that’s why we, as humans have constant wars, huh? To cull the herd, so to speak Plus God has blessed us with disease and other morbidity otherwise we wouldn’t have a way to die, would we? Can’t over-populate the earth or we would have a ‘Soylent Green’ situation. There’s a bit of sarcasm for you Ricardo, as I know how much you enjoy it. :)
BREAKING NEWS
For those of you who believe in God:
Jesus never spoke about homosexuality.
For those of you who believe the Bible is the word of God:
Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because they were homosexuals.
For those who are interested, scriptures will follow.
Jesus spoke against “porneia”, didn’t he? I think it’s unfair to ask a Christian denomination to go against their core values and accepts homosexuality. People have the right to practice their religion and their beliefs. Not everybody has to be a Christian! Moreover, not accepting homosexuality does not make someone necessarily homophobic. I respect everyone sexual orientation as long as you respect mine.
Christians will go against their beliefs when they feel the need to do so, gardy, don’t you worry about that. As time passes, the reigns get released more and more. It’s about adapting or die. The Bible is a reflection of life and attitudes at the time it was written and all those acts of hideousness were the norm. Is that how you really want to live? Is that what you’re looking forward to?
Just wait and see if it’s all about social Darwinism or the survival of the fittest! Religion will always be a part of society like it or not. God didn’t die yet about two centuries after Nitzche’s claim.
gardy, I don’t think the Jesus ever talked about porneia and as a matter of fact, Jesus and the twelve apostles traveled through the country with single and married women (Luke 8:1-3) and were supported by those women and nothing is said about any other men traveling with them.
Also Luke 17:34 Jesus said: “I say unto you, In that night there shall be two (men) in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left”. (the older versions of the N.W.T. but this is how the new grey New World Translation reads: “I tell you, in that night two (people) will be in one bed; the one will be taken along, but the other will be abandoned.”
The King James reads two “men” at that scripture and so the older New World Translation read two “men” but when the Society was rewriting the new grey bible, they realized what the implication would be there so they took it upon themselves to rewrite the bible to make Witnesses think otherwise with what Jesus actually said.
Remember when we got those new bibles when the Society insisted that we didn’t use our old New World Translation bibles anymore? That was why. They are so afraid that Witnesses will not hate homosexuals anymore because the world in general is beginning to see it not as a “choice” but as how people were born as and if they saw scriptures like what Jesus really said, that just maybe there were homosexuals in Jesus’ day and that scripture proves it and there is nothing in that scripture that condemns it but even implies that “one” of those men was “taken” along. Where is the condemnation in that scripture? There isn’t any.
Apologists like to think that there was a mistake in that scripture and that is not what Jesus really would have said but if they like to say that it’s a mistake, then the Bible can’t be “inspired” then, can it?
@Caroline,
I am just interested if this is a claim you are making with regard to Luke 17:4 talking about homosexuality? You always puzzle me as to what you believe.
Ricardo, do you mean Luke 17:34?
My point is that the King James Bible that Witnesses used to use before the New World Translation said that there would be two “men” in the same bed and the older New World Translations also say two “men in the same bed” but the new grey colored bible says two “people” in the same bed.
Why did they change two men to two people?
I think it’s because the writers of the new New World Translation saw that scripture and decided to deceive the Witnesses by changing men to people.
They had the power to do that and it’s deceptive and Witnesses are not allowed to complain about it or even ask why they would have done that on the threat of getting called into the back room for questioning the Governing Body and apostasy from the Organization and getting disfellowshipped for questioning the Governing Body.
Jesus never said anything about two men lying with each other was a crime to be stoned to death over but when it came to throwing the first stone at a woman lying with a man who she was not married to, it is obvious that the Jews would still stone people to death.
Stephen was stoned to death. So, then why didn’t Jesus say anything about stoning somebody to death if they had sex with the same sex?
The Society deliberately changed two men to two people because that scripture makes it look like Jesus was saying it was okay for two men to lay in the same bed together which today would mean they were homosexuals which a Witness could use in their defense if they were called into the back room and threatened with being disfellowshipped for homosexual activity.
That scripture is similar to another scripture at Matthew 24:40,41 so apologists want to say that the account at Luke was simply a mistake but like I said before, if it’s a mistake at Luke, then that says that the Bible is not inspired.
You can’t have it both ways so that is why the Society changed two men to two people.
Caroline I don’t understand your argument about the claim that Jesus never spoke on Porneia. In the Gospels Jesus spoke multiple times about Porneia and condemned it. Moreover, Bible interpretation is not homogeneous. This is not a surprise that people are desperate to find in the Bible or the Gospel some words or parts that would justify homosexuality or other practices. When it comes to Luke 17:34 there is no indication of anything with sexual nature. Moreover, the word men did not appear in the original text even though some translators think it is implied. In addition, the word translated by bed can also mean couch as it was often used during that time in evening meals or supper. Things we read in the Bible can be easily twisted when viewed through our modern and biased cultural lens.
gardy, the point of my post was that Watchtower changed men to people. Why????
@GAMEISOVER,
Are you sure Jesus did not speak against homosexuality? Not only did he uphold Jehovah’s standard of marriage in the beginning with Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, at Matthew 19:4-6 but he even agreed with God’s judgements against those who practiced sodomy in Matthew 10:15 and Luke 17:29 and 30. Jesus’ apostles and disciples, having been taught godly standards by Jesus, were equally against the sodomites, seen not only in Paul’s writings (Rom 1:26,27), but also in Peter’s (2 Pet 2:6), and Jude’s (Jude 7).
I think any basis you have for thinking what you think is in the book after Revelation. The imaginary one.
Ricardo, what I said was that Jesus did not speak or condemn homosexuality.
Regarding scriptures, other than his own words, one can reach multiple conclusions.
The watchtower taught us to be critical of everything and everyone.
I liberated myself from that a long time ago.
It wasn’t easy.
@GAMEISOVER,
Imagine I talk to you about marriage and confirm that the way God originated marriage in the beginning is the correct way, and then tell you that just like God killed a whole lot of people practicing homosexuality in the past, this is the same way I’m going to kill all those not obeying God again in the future. Do you mean to say from that conversation I am not condemning homosexuality?
That seems to be going out of your way to misunderstand what Jesus said. An intentional misunderstanding or twisting of Jesus’ teaching. When he talks about God destroying those practicing homosexuality in the past in a positive way, I would say that’s a fair indication that he does not find the practice of homosexuality acceptable. That those who mixed with Jesus and understood his thinking and teachings also condemned homosexuality, again this is a fair indication that Jesus did not find homosexuality acceptable.
Can you think of any other ways you can twist Jesus’ words or Bible teachings to say what you want them to say on this subject?
Yes: sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because the were homosexuals; this is absolutely true, with clear scriptures not subject to interpretations or “twisting”. But go ahead and believe what you sincerely think is right and true, Ricardo. This blog is to express opinions. We’ve been wrong for so long….. Hopefully, we are getting better at figuring things out now. As we know, only what is true will happen at the end.
@GAMEISOVER,
Jude gives us a clear explanation of why the sodomizers were destroyed in Jude 7: In the same manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example…
From reading that, do you not receive the understanding that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they worshipped idols? No. Because they were liars? No.
I wonder why God was so angry with them?
Ricardo, you keep bringing up Sodom and Gomorrah and that they committed gross sin and that is why Jehovah killed them.
Think about that story. Lot’s uncle Abraham argued with Jehovah about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah if God could find anybody in that city who was good but what about Lot (his nephew) and Lot’s family. Why didn’t Abraham go down the hill and talk to his nephew and his family instead of standing at a distance and argue with some angels about killing his own nephew and his family?
If you read that account, you will see that Jehovah was actually walking along with the two angels when Abraham was walking along the road and looked down the road at Sodom and Gomorrah. Remember that those cities had not received any “law” from Jehovah. That is why Watchtower refuses to say they won’t be resurrected. If Jehovah killed them once because they were so bad, then why resurrect them? Did you ever think about that scripture when you saw that Jehovah was “walking” along with Abraham? What about when Adam and Eve had sinned and Genesis says Jehovah was walking in the garden and didn’t even know where Adam and Eve were?
That story is a fairy tale. There is no evidence that that story about Sodom and Gomorrah ever happened.
If Jehovah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their being so bad, what was the excuse for all those other millions of people that Jehovah told the Jews to go into their lands and slaughter every man, woman and child (except for the virgin girls that they were supposed to save for themselves) with swords?
Where did a bunch of “slaves” get all those swords from when they left Egypt? Why didn’t any of those people fight back? Where in the Bible does it say that those people were killed because they were bad? How did those “slaves” own houses that they supposedly slapped all that lamb’s blood on their doorposts anyway so that Jehovah wouldn’t kill all their firstborn when they left Egypt as slaves? How did they get all those animals that they took into the wilderness and how did they feed all those animals? When they lived in the land of Goshen, how did those “slaves” feed those animals and take care of them?
Remember they were “slaves”.
@Caroline,
You always have so many questions it is virtually impossible to answer them all in this medium. I’m in no way saying anything wrong about your questions. I just keep imagining myself having a cup of tea with you and having the time and patience to discuss these things in the depth required.
Of course, there is no way of knowing from these posts whether you would be willing to accept anything which does not fit your world view, and I must say you have a fairly rigid view of the Bible.
On that subject, have any witnesses besides your daughter ever taken the time to sit down with you with a coffee and discuss any of your views? Like, in the beginning when your views started to deviate, did you discuss your thinking with anyone who was a witness?
Ricardo, I tried to tell my husband and my children and I was cut down immediately. They told me that if I continued talking, they would walk away from me. I tried a few times and was never able to say anything to them like what I can say here. I did tell the elders when they came and they immediately gave a marking talk on me at the hall.
All my questions can not be answered by you because they can’t be answered. There is no evidence the Jews ever left Egypt by the millions like the Bible says and if you examine the account of how they left in the book of Exodus, a myriad of questions come up which show it could never have happened like the Bible says it happened. All you have to do is when you read the Bible, take a note book and a pen and take notes.
I can guarantee you that if you start with the book of Genesis, that by the time you get to chapter 20, you will come to the conclusion that it’s nothing but fairy tales.
My questions are hyperbole but if you can answer any of those questions, I’d like to know what they are.
Can’t wait GAMEISOVER
The first sin recorded in the Bible was a lie. The impact of that lie resulted in humanity’s greatest harm. Why are liars usually not disciplined inside the WT religion? Most sanctions against JW members involve sex acts. Lies are occurring more frequently than publically or even privately known unbiblical sex acts among JWs. WT even has a fabricated excuse encouraging JWs to overlook lies. Lies are called “misunderstandings.” JWs are advised to overlook misunderstandings (aka lies) and to continue to trust their brothers (those who are liars).
Yesterday when I was having a glance on what we call here “The lesson of the day” (“Isomo ry’umunsi”), I read this: *** Text for Thursday, June 1, 2017 ***
the teenage son of a single mother was leading a double life. A well-meaning Christian sister said to the mother: “It’s too bad you have failed at child training.” The mother thought for a moment and responded: “It’s true that things are not going well right now, but his training is a work in progress. Talk to me after Armageddon; then we will know for sure.”
Before knowing the expansion of Jehovah empire worldwide, I could think that some humans have evolved to be too distant from apes until I realize we are all the same specie (Homo sapiens), easy to make stupid using the Bible. It is sad the renaissance is short lived and through the Bible we are taking a journey back to middle age ways of life and thinking.
@messenger, Watchtower would want you to believe that the first lie was by Satan (serpent) but if you are honest with yourself when you read the bible at face value, it was the god of the Hebrew Scriptures that told the first lie. The god of the Hebrews told Adam that if he ate of the fruit that he would die in that “day” and it was the serpent who told the truth. The did not die that day. They supposedly lived hundreds of years.
Bible apologists want you to think that the god of the Hebrew Scriptures was telling the truth by stretching that “day” to a thousand years.
When we read the Bible, we read it through Watchtower eyes. If we read it for what it really says, we don’t see a “loving” god. Any “love” for the god of the Hebrew scriptures is always one-sided, a cowering commitment of self-denial and sacrifice, not a chosen adoration from the heart because of anything good that he has done for mankind.
The god of the Hebrews requires fear of him on the penalty of death and try as you can, you can not find even one scripture in the Hebrew Bible that goes the other way around, where he loves mankind.
If you are honest with yourself when you read about the god of the Hebrews you will come to the same conclusion as Thomas Paine did in “The Age of Reason, Part 1, 1794”.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more and than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon rather than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind, and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
Caroline: IF it’s true that Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever on the earth ( the Bible doesn’t say that) but because they disobeyed God, they died, when did they begin to die?
ON THAT DAY. God was telling the truth. They died in his eyes and started the fleshly downhill, . on that very day. The end result for Adam 930 years later was physical death.
It is Satan who told the first lie.
GAMEISOVER, Genesis 3:4,5 says: “God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.'” At this the serpent said to the woman:
“You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.””
Now read Genesis 3:22: “And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,-”
So, GAMEISOVER, Adam and Eve did not die in that day. They lived hundreds of years and also the serpent was telling the truth when he said that if they ate the fruit that their eyes would be opened, knowing good and bad, which Genesis 3:22 says that God said was true what the serpent had told Adam and Eve.
So, when they ate the fruit, they didn’t know know what was wrong. They were like animals that way. You can’t explain why it’s wrong for dogs to bite a person. All you can do is train them not to bite.
God had to be evil to do that to Adam and Eve and to us but who did the serpent kill and what lies did he tell?
How many people did Satan kill in the Bible? None. But Jehovah killed millions and millions and even animals and the plants.
Serpents don’t talk and it wasn’t the eating the fruit that killed Adam and Eve. It was the fact that they didn’t eat from the tree of everlasting life, which was also in the garden.
So, who was the first liar?
Watchtower wants you to think that they aren’t worshipping a despot but they and anybody who agrees with all the horrible things that the god of the Jews did is worshipping a despot and don’t even know it or if they do know it, are making excuses for worshipping that god.
The Watchtower religion is built around fairy tales and sad to say, people are dying for it.
This is from the forward in the book “God The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction” by Dan Barker, from Richard Dawkins:
“Is it perhaps, unfair of Dan and me to pick and choose illustrations of the unpleasant characteristics of God? Couldn’t an apologist come up with a similar list of virtues, backed up by an even larger list of supporting verses? Couldn’t the apologist compile a counter to my damning litany? “The God of the Old Testament is….magnanimous, generous, encouraging, forgiving, charitable, loving, friendly, good-humoured, supportive of women, of homosexuals, of children, freedom-loving, open-minded, broad-minded, non-violent.” Go on. Try and find those nice verses. Do your best. You think you’ll succeed? Want a bet?
@Caroline,
Failing to detest the Bible is absolutely insanity….
(Leviticus 26:27-29) . . .“‘If in spite of this you will not listen to me and you insist on walking in opposition to me, 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 So you will have to eat the flesh of your sons, and you will eat the flesh of your daughters. . .
I can imagine a god fighting with his/her creatures whose brain is mistakenly believed to be bigger than the animal’s (as human history shows). The Bible makes humans even worse than animals.
When Watchtower goes low, we the majority will go high.
Leave the gay people alone Watchtower.
Don’t you have enough things to work on instead of bullying the LGBT community? Perhaps better policies would be a start. Being a better example for the community would improve your reputation.
They need to galvanize the flock with something, Doc.
As promised: first point.
Jesus did not speak about homosexuality.
Jesus came to fulfill the Law. It was nailed to the cross.
He introduced,instead, the law of love, written in the hearts as had been foretold.
Jesus never used the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek words which were typically translated as homosexuality.
There are no biblical passages that reveal
Jesus’ beliefs on these matters.
In fact a case can be made that he did not discuss
sexual activity at all.
John 4:16-18 Jesus talks with the Samaritan woman at the well. She’s had 5 husbands and is living with the 6th one. Wow!
She recognized him as a prophet and asked him
a theological question about prayer.
He did not criticize the woman’s behavior or marital history.
Matthew 15:19. ” from the heart come evil
Thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality.
He did not say what it was. Adultery is wrong in almost every society. Sexual immorality could be
sexually abusing others.
John 8:1-11 (the fake Silver Sword has eliminated
this passage. Could it be because they can’t stop
throwing stones?)
They were going to stone the woman caught in adultery. He recommended that the thrower of the first stone be without sin.
It is said that homosexuals compose 10% of the world population. So do left handed people.
Did Jesus condemn mutually caring homosexual
relationships? Or heterosexual ones? Not at all
He amply spoke about love, kindness, forgiveness, generosity, helpfulness.
The 6/7 things God hates did not have to do with sexuality.
In the parable of the sheep and goats of Matthew
25 same. Jesus mentions 6 things that will bring
sheeplike ones to salvation, regardless or their sexuality or religious ( or non religious) beliefs.
Sexuality is a grand gift from God. There are limits and good sense. But the law of love trumps it all.
@GAMEISOVER,
I think you have a lot of wishful thinking with regards to Jesus attitude towards homosexuals.
He upheld Jehovah’s standard of marriage in the beginning with Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, at Matthew 19:4-6, where he states a man will marry his wife (not his husband) and they will become one flesh, just as it was in the beginning. You may remember that in the beginning, marriage was between a man and a woman.
He even agreed with God’s judgements against those who practiced sodomy in Matthew 10:15 and Luke 17:29 and 30, claiming that when he returns it will be similar to the time when the sodomizers were destroyed. Thus, he not only agreed with his father’s destruction of the sodomizing sinners, but when he returns he will likewise war with the unrepentant sinners again.
Jesus’ apostles and disciples, having been taught godly standards by Jesus, were equally against the sodomites, seen not only in Paul’s writings (Rom 1:26,27) where he paints homosexuality as a perversion from God’s original purpose for men and women, but also in Peter’s (2 Pet 2:6) where Sodom was condemned for its perversion, and Jude’s (Jude 7) which calls their homosexuality ‘gross sexual immorality’.
So, let’s review. God destroys a couple of cities because they are perverted as homosexuals, them having left his original purpose of man and woman getting married. Jesus upholds God’s original purpose and says when he returns, watch out, just like his father destroyed the perverted sodomizers, there is going to be destruction when he returns. Jesus disciples and apostles further back that up, condemning homosexuality.
What basis really is there for saying: ‘Did Jesus condemn mutually caring homosexual
relationships? Not at all.’
Jesus didn’t put love as the most important thing, the way Western society has. He put godly principles first. Did he condemn homosexual relationships? He never ever agreed with gross sexual immorality. Only a twisting of the scriptures would allow your conclusion.
Many people like Ricardo are confused. Here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/mp/r1/lp-e/my/2004/34 you can se “Cain” and “Abel”. The former is called “bad son” because he is presenting vegetable as offering to Jehovah god and the latter is called “good son” because he has killed a sheep to praise his god with blood (without blood, Jehovah can never be made happy)!
Here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/mp/r1/lp-e/my/2004/36 it is now Cain’s time to praise god with a better sacrifice than a sheep…
All that is to confuse people like Ricardo who cannot see that ABEL was the first animal slaughter and Cain was the first manslaughter and both sacrifices praise a god (Jehovah) who delights in seeing blood shed.
You will get even more confused as your teachers say “It is not just that Abel’s gift is better than Cain’s. It is because Abel is a good man. He loves Jehovah and his brother. But Cain is bad; he does not love his brother.”! I hope Angel Merkel saves Europe!!
@Jado,
Cough, cough. You calling me confused? When did I ever say anything about Cain and Abel? Or Angela Merkel? And somehow tie all three of them into a comment?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By-5xw8qmfqSGdfS3VobXdid3M/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By -5xw8qMfqSGdfS3VobXdid3M/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By_-5xw8qMfqSGdfS3VobXdid3M/view
this one works. I’m in it. We had fun. Enjoy.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By_-5xw8qMfqSGdfS3VobXdid3M/view
Cecil, did you put on that play in front of “worldly” people or just Witness friends? I watched the whole thing.
Just one comment to you. You are obviously young so please, I beg you, do some research before you get baptized. If you really have the “truth”, no matter what you read, it will stand up to it if it’s lies.
One book that I really recommend is “Gentile Times Reconsidered” or “Captives of a Concept”.
Just so you know, you are not allowed to read anything that is about Jehovah’s Witnesses that is critical of the Watchtower Society. You are only allowed to read books that are printed by Watchtower but every book that is written by former Witnesses, use only Watchtower books and magazines to prove their points.
Watchtower wants to keep you in the dark when it comes to their history and old books when Jesus supposedly visited the earth and decided that only the Watchtower Society was going to be his spokesman to mankind on earth.
Watch Lloyd’s latest video and you will see his important question at the end of his video.
Even coming onto this website is something you can be called into the back room and counseled on with the threat of being disfellowshipped if you are baptized.
I thought ‘God’s people’ were supposed to be well educated in the scriptures from the Bible. It plainly says “Do you know know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,….will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9,11)
The spirit engulfing the world today, the LGBTQ spirit, is not from God and alienates us from serving him because it is a gross sin before God. There is no ‘gay gene’. A person becomes this by their own accord and often takes hormones to seemingly prove their point without telling anyone. Sorry Covert but in this instance the Witnesses are right.
http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-there-no-gay-gene
@Meredith,
I agree with your statement. There is no basis for anyone to claim or try to twist the scriptures to say that Jesus approved of his followers being homosexual. There are many more scriptures than what you mention, but my comment which includes them above is being moderated. However, I will repeat the conclusion which any Bible research should reach:
God destroys a couple of cities because they are perverted as homosexuals, them having left his original purpose of man and woman getting married. Jesus upholds God’s original purpose and says when he returns, watch out, just like his father destroyed the perverted sodomizers, there is going to be destruction when he returns. Jesus disciples and apostles further back that up, condemning homosexuality.
Christians can try to squirm this way and that way to deny Jesus’ words, but in the end there is a need for them to know him and Jehovah as they really are, and to obey them (2 Thess 1:8), and that includes the divine opinion about sodomizers.
Meredith,you can’t just read one article that supports your view and then say you’ve made an informed choice. You can’t just look out your kitchen window, see an Asian walking past and declare we are being over-run by Asians. You need to do more unbiased reading. You’re not looking for truth, you’re looking for confirmation that what you believe is true. There is far more support for a gay gene than not. Sorry.
Meredith…don’t get the impression I’m pro gay….I’m not, in fact I’m slightly uncomfortable with it, but what I am is pro truth and pro justice, no matter the cost.
If you want to be true and follow the bible, you could apply the scripture in Mark that says true believers can take poison and not be harmed. So what’s preventing you from from finding out whether you’re a sheep or a goat right here and now by going to the laundry and downing a bottle of bleach? Of course you won’t because what the bible says in that instance is totally ridiculous. So what else in the bible is totally ridiculous?
I could condense the bible message with four wise words for you – ‘Don’t be an arsehole’. No disrespect intended, but that’s pretty much it. Everything else is just designed to scare people into submission and fill the coffers with donations.
In the animal world, which is perceived to be more intelligent – a sheep or a goat? Looks like somebody chose the wrong comparison there.
Hi Everyone,
A Facebook friend shared a post about this video. I decided to write a small essay in response. It is a long read, so I posted in 5 parts.
Part 1: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Homosexuality Essay
The road towards full acceptance and understanding of homosexuality has been a long one. Unfortunately many have suffered along the way. However, I do believe and hope, Jehovah’s Witnesses will, over time, soften their view on this subject. My thesis is we learn when we engage a subject and try to establish a winning argument.
When the wider world held generally anti-gay views, Jehovah’s Witnesses did not feel much need to justify their own anti-gay rhetoric. In the book “Your Youth – Getting the Best Out of It”, homosexuality was labeled a learned behavior, even suggesting it resulted from masturbation. Yet when the next youth-targeted publication, “Questions Young People Ask – Answers that Work”, was released the fundamental stance hadn’t change but the language to address it was more nuanced.
At the beginning of the video the straying JW daughter enters with her friends. Their bit older manager reminds them to remove their shoes, as it is customary. JWs are taught to be fearful of outsiders. This concern should be still exist even when the outsider is polite.
The side conversation between the father and the daughter presents a rebel for the daughter, but only a mild one. Sure she has a leather jacket, does some eye-rolls, and dismisses her father’s concern as “no big deal.” Where it fails, is when she says, “just go talk to them.” Some will note this fairly reasonable advice. The father seeks to have his views understood, so why shouldn’t this standard be applied to those outside the faith?
Part 2: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Homosexuality Essay
When the scene changes back to the kitchen we see normal get-to-know-you conversation. When the manager highlights the talent of the interns, the mother says, “your parents must be really proud of you.” This dialog is a setup for the young women to say she was raised by “two wonderful women.” However, what are we to make of the mother’s comments? When one believes they are living in the last days and soon everyone not aligned with Jehovah’s Witnesses will be destroyed, how can that square with showing pride in “worldly” accomplishments? JWs tend to live a double-life. To function around others, they are forced to hide their true beliefs, or as, I believe, often the other way around – they doubt their JW beliefs – but hide that from other JWs.
The young woman raised by a lesbian couple voices the now widely held view, that homosexuality is not abnormal. This acting is done by a real JW. Acting can be a powerful thing, as one attempts to inhabit and reflect the mindset of the character they are playing. I can easily imagine her or other JWs, especially those who are gay, but hiding it, wondering if the father here really made his case. And what are we to make of the mother’s comments, about her assistant Marty being gay? Her discomfort shows up in some “ums” and speaking in an undertone. Again, though, this is the world JWs find themselves in. The Marty’s of 2017 no longer feel the need to hide their sexual orientation.
Part 3: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Homosexuality Essay
The father is held out as holding the correct view. The mother is a stand-in for a big worry the JW leadership has on the subject. Watch how they give voice to their worry. The mother says, “honey, maybe we are being too harsh on gays, some people seemed to be programmed that way.” BINGO! That is the big worry! The worry that this message of understanding and tolerance is getting past all the filters and landing within the noggin of the average run-of-the-mill JW. The evidence we have, even from within the Bible itself, suggests her view is correct – some people are “programmed” that way.
In book “The Language of God” by Francis Collins he discusses what can be determined from our DNA. In some cases specific generic sequences show up as obvious attributes of our existence. My blue eyes can be determined from my genes. What about homosexuality? The answer Collins gives is on page 260:
“An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4 percent of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations.”
The value is “about 20%” Had it been “100%” we could say, male homosexuality is entirely hardwired by our DNA. Since that is not the case, the most reasonable conclusion seems to be a DNA-based predisposition mixed with other factors results in our sexual orientation. For example, how hormones drive fetal development of the brain could easily be a factor.
What about the Bible? The condemnation of homosexuality we find in Leviticus informs us that homosexual behavior has been found within human populations for thousands of years. Likewise the tendency to condemn this behavior for religious reasons.
Part 4: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Homosexuality Essay
Does the father, who is a stand-in for the JW leadership, make a winning argument? The dialog between him and the young interns sets the stage.
Father’s claim: “Tess, we live by the Bible’s moral standards.”
Most JWs would assume this is true, and what justifies otherwise unpopular views. However, much of what JWs live by, is direction given by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Leviticus 20:13 says, “If a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them.”
Thus, the Father’s more complete statement of faith should be: “Tess, we live by the Bible’s moral standards. Leviticus 20:13 says those who engage in male homosexual sex should be ‘put to death without fail.’ While we don’t do that in modern times, our sense of justice is satisfied by reflecting on the death of all those homosexual males adversely judged for the detestable thing they were doing. We also look forward to the destruction of all homosexuals in a massive genocide, Jehovah God will soon bring about.”
Father’s claim: “We don’t force our beliefs on other people and we don’t judge anyone either.”
It is true that JWs maintain a neutral political stance. JWs would not have voted for or against same-sex marriage. However, “other people” hides a large truth, about force and judgment applied to members inside the faith.
JWs do not allow for a dignified exit from the organization. JWs also operate internal religious tribunals called “judicial committees” that directly judge members they view as sinners and wrongdoers. This would include any homosexual who admitted such, and pursued a same-sex relationship, even if it were honorable in the same ways as an opposite-sex relationship. That is, a young gay couple who dated, then married, and only then were intimate – would face a judicial committee and be disfellowshipped and shunned.
Part 5: Jehovah’s Witnesses and Homosexuality Essay
Father’s claim: “The Bible says sex is meant to be between a man and a woman who are married to each other.”
It is true Jesus said this: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” – Matthew 19:4-6
However, the subject of sex and marriage in the Bible is not as simple as this father presents. For example, Leviticus 20:13 condemns male homosexual sex. Verse 12 condemns sex between a father and his daughter-in-law. Yet no mention is made of female homosexual behavior. No question verse 13 can be labeled anti-gay in regards to males, however this part of Leviticus seems to concern procreation and inheritance through male linage. A father would want his son, especially if first born, to procreate. Likewise a man might appreciate a law that protects his wife from the sexual advance of his more powerful father.
The OT also reports on polygamy without condemnation. Many of the OT Biblical heroes, such as Abraham, Issac and Jacob married close relatives, such as half-sisters and cousins. In many places today such marriages would not be considered legal.
Eric, says, “Look, I don’t mean to be rude sir, but the world has changed.”
The tension between conservative and progressive views is not new. While many assume the Bible, of all books, surely supports a conservative view, it is not that simple. True, it is not difficult to find verses like Psalm 119:160 which says “All your righteous judgments endure forever.” Yet the OT view of marriage and procreation favors a pragmatic view in many places. When Sarah could not produce offspring for Abraham she gave him her hand maiden Hagar – Genesis 16:1, 2. Polygamy was acceptable when it was culturally relevant, but drops from view by the Christian era. During the Christian era divorce is more harshly condemned (see Matthew 19).
As argued, the Bible shows homosexuality has been with us for thousands of years. However, is Eric correct when he says “the world has changed?” Yes! It is only in recent memory that society has moved on from homosexuality as a focus on sex acts. Today our broader view includes seeing homosexuals in terms of long-term committed relationships many of them enjoy. This, in turn, has lead to the concept of same-sex marriage with equal in rights to opposite-sex marriage. Marriage of course is much more than just about how sex functions for the couple. While likely not intended, the dialog given to Tess, is an acknowledgement of this. Two wonderful women have raised a bright young lady working to advance medical science.
Cheers,
-Randy
@Randy,
No doubt some homosexuals are wonderful people. And, yes, the Western world has changed to make LOVE the most important thing. The fact that someone fell out of love is given as justification for leaving a family. Some people give justification for the fornication seen in last year’s drama as the fact that the two people love one another. Loyalty to the concept of marriage has been eroded and is seen as silly. Thus, for Westerners, and not Africans or Asians, love is the most important thing. Anything can be excused if it done for love.
The Bible does emphasis love: love for God and neighbour. Love for God means obeying him. While the scripture you quote in Leviticus had application for the Jews, Christians can not run away from the verses in the Bible which refer to both male and female homosexuals. See Romans 1:26 and 27 “That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust for one another, males with males, working what is obscene…” Yes, these Christian standards and condemnation referred to lesbians also.
In my earlier post, which is tied up in moderation forever, I noted that Paul here was backing up the principal that homosexuality is obscene and a perversion. Jesus upheld Jehovah’s standard of marriage in the beginning with Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, at Matthew 19:4-6, where he states a man will marry his wife (not his husband) and they will become one flesh, just as it was in the beginning. You may remember that in the beginning, marriage was between a man and a woman.
He even agreed with God’s judgements against those who practiced sodomy in Matthew 10:15 and Luke 17:29 and 30, claiming that when he returns it will be similar to the time when the sodomizers were destroyed. Thus, he agreed with his father’s destruction of the sodomizing sinners.
Other Bible writers such as Peter support God’s condemnation of Sodom (2 Pet 2:6) where Sodom was condemned for its perversion, and Jude does also (Jude 7) calling their homosexuality ‘gross sexual immorality’.
Whichever way you wish to squirm, Randy, you can’t get around the fact that the West’s lowered moral standards are resulting in homosexuality becoming more accepted. Christians with any backbone will uphold God’s standard.
Hi Ricardo,
Thanks. To be clear, I’m an atheist and don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. To me Paul’s writings to the Romans carry no more moral authority than the writings of Plato. Nonetheless I see the Bible as a fantastic telescope into our past, albeit narrowed to the history of the nation of Israel and in the NT the sect of Judaism that would become Christianity.
Jesus was a Jew and would have naturally picked up the moralistic views of sex, marriage and homosexuality we find in the OT. Likewise his follows and formers of Christianity such as Paul and Peter. This shows up in references you mention (Matthew 10, 19, Luke 17, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 7). One would hardly expect Jesus, Peter or Paul to address homosexuality like we do in the 21st century. They are from the 1st century and speak as such.
Only in recent history are we able to appreciate two things those ancient writers could not. Namely, that DNA-based predisposition towards homosexuality exists and secondly homosexual relationships can exist within the same state of committed relationships that traditional opposite-sex marriage. The point is, you can’t expect Paul to address these things, since in his day, it just wasn’t a cultural artifact.
If trying to move the 1st century into the 21st century can lead to mistaken views, can the reverse happen too? Yes, I think that can and does happen. We just can’t assume Paul is talking about modern forms of homosexuality in Romans. He lives in his world and we live in ours. If we hope to understand Paul we need to invest in trying to understand the cultural context of his world and what was important to him.
Going back to Romans 1, indeed, verse 26 and 27 says this:
“That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.”
What is Paul talking about? Please first notice, it is not about homosexual relationships in the sense of marriage or equal rights. The focus here is lust, sex acts, being violently inflamed. I can imagine even some homosexuals agreeing that unbridled lust is not a healthy thing.
However if we isolate just these verses we miss the point Paul is making. Paul lives within the Greek/Roman world and is evangelizing an invisible God. Thus in verse 20 he says:
“For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.”
Reading on from verse 20 to 26 one sees Paul is arguing about creature worship vs Creator worship. Paul is warning the Romans where creature worship leads — an obsession about the beauty of the male and female form leads to out-of-control sexual passion — which he condemns.
Cheers,
-Randy
We could also switch to Wikipedia and read all about homosexuality among species of wildlife. The question is, are these wildlife species, from gutworm to primates, being immoral for being homosexual? Should we kill each and every one of them? They are, afterall, Gods creation, God created homosexuality and then condemns only humans for it? That’s right up there with ” I love you, but if you don’t love me back, I will kill you”.
Somethings not right with the story.
Hi outandabout,
From an evolutionary point of view it is easy to see why sexual reproduction is a successful strategy. Asexual reproduction doesn’t afford the same opportunity to swap genes around. When we observe the differences between male and female within a species it is easy to appreciate sexual reproduction has lead to odd things. From song birds to elaborate displays of fitness and attraction.
Homosexuality would seem an odd outlier. Yet it occurs. By just being there it demands some explanation. Clearly no species would survive if homosexuality was a dominate trait, especially if it precluded male/female breeding. Survival though is not just about sex, especially within groups of social animals. Thus among humans we see a small percentage of homosexuals.
Or consider what one article on Slate pointed out about dogs. They will engage in homosexual behavior, yet it likely does not indicate a same sex preference, but is more likely about dominance or even frustration by being unable to mate a female in heat that is taken by another male. In contrast BBC reported on Japanese macaque (snow monkeys) where female homosexual behavior is the norm.
The bottom line is sex is complicated and especially so in animals with large brains like us.
Richard Dawkins TV program “Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life” addressed the question of morals. In the program he made the great point, that despite the common narrative that morals are declining it is unlikely our long wired-in views of sex would ever change rapidly. Indeed the “free love” of the 60s, he points out, did not stick. Both religious, non-religious, gay and straight, tend to want loyalty from our mates.
Bible writers don’t spend much time on animal sexual behaviors. Yet, there is the odd case of Jacob and sheep breading mentioned in Genesis 30. There the account speaks of Jacob placing “staffs in the gutters” to encourage mating of the strongest sheep.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi outandabout, I would suggest that morality applies only to humans who were made in God’s image, not to other species.
Regards
@Randy and outandabout,
Why do you try to squirm here and there to try to have Bible verses match your view? You cannot continue to squirm indefinitely. Sometime you have to simply accept what the Bible is saying.
You can try to explain Paul’s words in whatever twisted way you would like, but when you take his words and God’s views overall, there can be only one conclusion.
First, let’s consider Paul’s other words, at 1 Cor 6:9 and 10 “men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality…will not inherit God’s Kingdom.” No mention of lust there. Or out of control sexual passion.
God’s view overall: Sodom and the sodomizers were destroyed. Jesus referred to it and was in agreement. Jesus’ disciple Jude calls the actions of the sodomizers gross sexual immorality.
And you are saying that 2,000 years after Jesus said this, now it is ok in just the Western world? Have you become a prophet greater than Jesus? From the days of Abraham till Jesus, God and his friends condemn homosexuality, and suddenly now, 2,000 years after Jesus, it has become okay in God’s eyes, but only for those of us in the enlightened West, because it sure as eggs is not accepted as normal in most of Africa, Asia or the Middle East.
Again, Randy, I believe you are a student of history, see that the only reason homosexuality has become accepted in the West is because the morals of our society have fallen. Living together used to be illegal. Now it’s okay because the two people love one another. Next, what if three people love one another? Oh, that’s okay, because love is there. As long as there is love, you can do anything in Western society. The morals which used to be there, and which still exist in most of Africa and Asia, have eroded away.
As for homosexual animals, outandabout, I am yet to see the cattle and sheep farmers of Australia start complain because their blooming bulls and rams being only interested in one another. When the bulls are no longer interested in the cows because somehow they have that disposition in their genes, well, maybe we should sit up and listen.
Hi Ricardo,
I can assure you have I have no problem with the Bible or that it makes me squirm. Or that I wish to make it say something it does not.
True, it is only incidental, but the Leviticus reference and the Genesis reference to Sodom is a counter point to the narrative that homosexual behavior in terms of sex itself is new or the result of recent change in moral views. What is new is the recognition of rights and marriage, etc. That is new, and yes, I would argue thank goodness! I am happy to live at a time when most of the world does not stone people to death for homosexuality.
My deeper dive into these scripture, is a response to my JW history and a desire to make a greater effort to understand the material.
Here is 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10:
“Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”
First off, I agree, no mention here of lust or creature worship. Just a typical Paul list of things. Yet, something should strike the reader as odd. Notice the two phrases “men who submit to homosexual acts” and “men who practice homosexuality.” When translators have difficulty with a word that has no direct equivalent in the target language they use a phrase to bring across the meaning.
The two Greek words are: malakoi and arsenokoitai.
malakoi literally means “SOFT-ones” or “catamites.”
arsenokoitai means “sodomites”
Here are some translations:
NIV: nor men who have sex with men (the two words are combined into one phrase)
YLT: nor effeminate, nor sodomites (sodomites is left untranslated)
KJV: nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (technically sodomy could apply to any form of anal or oral sex, male or female, so perhaps the KJV wanted to express a more neutral phrase)
Imagine a world wherein young boys were made available to older men as homosexual lovers. If you wanted to condemn both sides of these acts you would say what Paul said here. In fact the 1984 NWT made this view of the text fairly clear by using the phrase “men kept for unnatural purposes.” Personally I think this is the most likely correct view of this text.
Please keep in mind I’m happy to share my thoughts, but these are just my views and I’m not a Bible scholar.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Ricardo,
I’m sorry, I just posted but didn’t respond to this bit:
“And you are saying that 2,000 years after Jesus said this, now it is ok in just the Western world? Have you become a prophet greater than Jesus? From the days of Abraham till Jesus, God and his friends condemn homosexuality, and suddenly now, 2,000 years after Jesus, it has become okay in God’s eyes, but only for those of us in the enlightened West, because it sure as eggs is not accepted as normal in most of Africa, Asia or the Middle East.”
I’m an atheist. I see no compelling evidence God exists or that Jesus was a prophet. My point about the passing of time is simply that one can’t expect the words of Bible writers such as found in Leviticus, Matthew or Peter to address subject matter that did not exist in their day. The recognition of homosexual rights is entirely modern and yes, mostly in the western world. Likewise the relationship between DNA and homosexuality is new, as is seeing beyond the sex act and taking note of long-term committed same-sex relationships. Paul can’t address this, he can only talk to us about the goings on in Rome and Corinth of the 1st century.
In the reverse I don’t think we can hope to understand the meaning of Bible material without doing our best to get ourselves grounded in the world the writer lived in.
This is very recent, but NPR reported on March 24th that Taiwan’s high court has ruled that gay marriage is legal. So we are seeing these views spread around the world.
Cheers,
-Randy
@Randy,
Keep squirming in your fruitless attempt to give the Bible whatever meaning you wish. You might like to choke on 1 Tim 1: 9 and 10 where lawless, rebellious ungodly people are associated with men who practice homosexuality.
The message from all these scriptures is basically the same: homosexuality is a perversion from God’s original purpose and he hates it.
As the Western world falls deeper into moral decay, do not be surprised if more and more debased behaviour becomes acceptable, and some influence does not rub off on some countries trying to become more Western, such as Taiwan.
Again, you must be able to see that the erosion in morals in the West makes changes like the acceptance of homosexuality much easier. It is not that we in the West are going up and are enlightened, it is that we are collapsing in our values, and these practices which were once abhorrent are now accepted in our ‘anything goes’ culture. It is not something to be proud of, but rather something to be shocked about.
Wait a sec here. I can’t speak with such biblical eloquence as yourself Ricardo, as only a trained elder could ( one, posting on a website he would never tell anyone he trolled). I have a question, why do the faithful never seem to look any deeper than, the surface re. Story’s told in the bible ie. the wife of Lot? What about the daughters of lot? If we get from this story that god hates Homosexuals, then what do we get from Lot trying to settle the crowd, by giving them his two virgin young girls? What does god say about taking care of your family? Or what are gods thoughts on Lots daughters getting dad drunk, then having sex with him not once but twice. I guess that since god never changes his mind, he must still think there is a time and a place for incest, correct? You people that act like you know and understand what you read in the bible, but truly miss the point, are sad and lost. If you read the bible, without expressing any faith, you will get a completely different impression of biblical events. You may be left with questions like, if David had gods backing when he encounter Goliath, hand he new it (that’s why he shed his armor) then why 5 stones? All god needed was one. The fact that you troll this site and feel the need to retort, is about a gross, and immoral as it gets. Always remember, if it’s not love, that motivates you, then how will others
see the mark of love on the true congregation? The answer, they won’t.
I’ll help you out with your question G Purcel. You make a mistake many who turn from God do, that of looking to find fault with God, partially because of assumptions you’ve made about him. Not saying you fit the shoe but that you present a similar response as some of those people. Also, since you are on this site you may have been a JW. WT has made thousands of assumptions in its teachings, hundreds more than any other Christians I’ve heard from. Therefore you may be following WT’s example in doing so (assuming things not stated). I’m a teacher, and I see students guess (assume) answers almost every day. They are almost always wrong.
Now to answer your question. There are many, many, many (hundreds or thousands) of historical incidents in the Bible. You do not know for sure that God approves or disapproves of any of those unless his approval or disapproval is explicitly stated in Biblical scripture. Or, if you prefer to guess like many students do, then I say guess wrong; because from experience I can verify that’s a probability. The scriptures never stated God approved the actions of anyone in the Bible incidents you mentioned. The source that made that claim was you, not the Bible. You suggested God approved of those actions, not the Bible.
messenenger, it was at the orders of Jehovah that those people murdered all those people. You need to read your Bible and pay attention to what it “really” says, not what you think it says.
Hmmmmmm. Well I guess my issue with your statement, is simple. Your assumption I “turned from god” assumes I no longer believe in god. Not so. All you jw higher ups loose site of who your are. You assume, if someone rejects your teaching, or even questions you, then they “turn from god”. But in reality, they simply turn from you. You Mr. Teacher, Are not god. That fact that you, as many others have missed the point of “the disgusting thing, standing in a holy place” the disgusting thing, is you. You who assume that what you say comes from god. What you do, is told by god. Remember god is love. Not arrogance. You put your self dangerously close to being labeled as the anti Christ. You all seem so fond of labeling people. Be aware, that what you say, is someone’s interpretation of what the think, god wants or wishes. Or perhaps, like Jesus, god speaks to you directly.
All scripture is inspired of god and beneficial for teaching. The story of a crowd of Homosexuals demanding sexual satisfaction from one of gods servants, plays out twice in close proximity,in the bible. Both times, 1st-lots daughters 2nd- the levite concubine and another virgin daughter. The concubine is raped to death and then dismembered. Looking at how many times birthdays are mentioned in the bible (x2) and how the JW’S act based on that scripture. I can only assume, that god put those words in the bible for some reason to help us. Perhaps as you say, we dont know for sure that god approves or disapproves of a certain story. Then when we give talks, we should not look into stories and accounts in the bible, to find the moral for us to live by today, and write talks about them. Like with Birthdays. Stories, found in the bible, interpreted to mean something, and lots of kids never get cake. Then you must have some proof that god disproves of birthdays (other than the stories in the bible)hence the custom. Cause it sure looks like, he dont like girls, well virgin girls anyway.
@Purcell, your statement carries some weight. Be sure that for the reasons you mentioned, some witnesses do have birthday cakes. I had cakes every year until I turned 12, and so has my son. If anything, birthday cakes should be a conscience issue. At least it is not a disfellowshipping offence to celebrate birthdays.
@G Purcel,
You seem to be quite frustrated by something I said in my comment, or the way in which I stated it. I wish we could meet face to face to discuss so you could see that I am gracious and interested when discussing with people. But we are using a medium like this, which limits us. (For some reason I am unable to make long comments here, so there will be multiple shorties)
If we were able to meet I would be interested to know what in my comments you thought gross or immoral. Also, although I am not up to date with internet terms, to say I am trolling this site seems rather harsh, whatever that means. Maybe it’s a good term, I don’t know. Is there some reason why I cannot comment on this site and share my views? But I am willing to be mentored by you, so let’s little by little endure this technology and the short comments I am only able to make.
When I mentioned Gross and Immoral, I was referring to your living two lives. One that goes to meetings, and service and gives talks about the dangers of the internet. “The trap of apostate websites”, Im sure one of your talks was named. Yet, here you are. I am confident you dont relate experiences on stage about conversations you had in this forum. The hypocrisy that oozes out of most JW’s (and yes, myself at one time) is gross, and immoral. IMO
@Purcell, I have never given a talk about apostate web sites, nor do I plan to. I have never told anyone to keep away from apostate websites. I am part of a group of active witnesses who get great pleasure from this website and from reading Fredrick Franz’s books. There is no Bible verse telling us to announce this.
The group I associate with do use the Bible as our basis of worship, but we have lost confidence with our leadership. Thus, we do not simply follow what the GB tells us we should do if we can see no biblical reason for it. Some of us go preaching but do not put in a report, as there is no Bible verse requiring it.
However, please be assured that things we learn from this website are shared in comments at the meeting, in conversations with elders and CO’s, with relatives and friends. The things which our org is hiding we are revealing as much as we can. And other witnesses are listening. And elders and CO’s are unhappy. Tough.
One thing you mentioned, G Purcel, my teacher, is asking whether there is a time and place for incest. So, as an interested student, let me ask you how did Adam and Eve’s children have offspring? From whom? Who did they marry? If your answer is, they must have married their brothers and sisters, then you have answered that question for yourself: Yes, there must be a time and place for incest. Otherwise, how did Adam and Eve have grandchildren.
Let me ask you, now, and please tell me. Incest is not encouraged in today’s world (I believe it is illegal here in Australia). But what if one homosexual guy loved his own brother who was also homosexual. Would incest be permitted then? If not, why not?
As to your other questions, Messenger has eloquently answered them.
He asked you where in the Bible does it say that God approved of Lot offering his daughters, or Lot’s daughters having incestuous intercourse with their father? And, as we were not there to see every detail, and as not every detail is put down for us, how are we to know that Lot knew the men of Sodom would not accept his daughters anyway? He probably knew how depraved they were, and their declining the girls showed how perverted they were.
As for David, he did not display over-confidence, but was modest in taking five stones. The Bible does not tell his reasoning, but maybe he could have reasoned that he needed more than one stone to beat Goliath: one for each leg, a couple for the eyes. How was David to know that Jehovah would bless his effort with instant victory? In hind sight it is easy to criticise.
You mention that I should comment on this site out of love.
Wait, how do you know, Jehovah blessed his victory. What happened after Goliath fell, remember David ran over and beheaded him. Then held up his severed head in triumph. At which point in that story did god step out, and man step in? That story sounds very manly and not too god like. careful.
We can see Jehovah blessed his effort by giving him the victory. David trusted in God, saying to Goliath, “I am coming against you in the name of Jehovah.” The result was instant.The enemies fled, the Jews chased after them and killed them. Sounds like God blessed their efforts. Otherwise they would have lost, no?
I have a love for accuracy, and many comments here are lacking in Bible accuracy in my opinion. But I am not as knowledgeable as you, so maybe I have erred. Could you explain to me how my comments are lacking in love? Again I say, I made my comments to correct some wrong assumptions put forward. Am I wrong to do that? Is that unloving?
Ricardo re. June 10, 2017 at 10:40 pm- One world event that sticks in my mind. 2 airplanes full of people, hit The Would Trade center in New youk City- 1 at a time. Both buildings fall 1 at a time, in spectacular fashion, no one, could have predicted that the buildings would fall as they did, with the whole world watching. To Us- we see pure evil. To the group that carried out the attack-Just the opposite. They see the same events, as God blessing their efforts. Hence they believe, because of their “victory” god is on their side, and therefor they feel they cannot loose. You see, just because David won the fight, he in no way had gods blessing. Just an unexpected advantage, a small store that found its mark. He took advantage, and finished the job with a sword. (wouldn’t a god motivated by love-Hold a sword to his neck, but spare his life?) We always look to find what we want in a story found in the bible, we want vindication for what we believe. But we are grasping at straws. When Joshua put villages “to the sword” and killed every living thing. it wasn’t doing gods will to open up the promised land. It was Genocide.
@Purcell, yes, the guys flying the planes and those of their religion probably saw their efforts as having God’s blessing because they were extraordinarily successful. David’s situation is different because God did sanction the fight against His enemies, so David was acting in accordance with God’s will.
As far as I have seen, there has been no new revelation from Allah saying to attack innocents. In comparison, Goliath was not an innocent. He was daily coming out and slandering Jehovah and his people. So, God having said these enemies must be destroyed, and David beating their prize champion, God was glad.
Why didn’t David hold a knife to Goliath’s throat? God hadn’t said to hold prisoners, he said to kill them. Goliath was no doubt dead by that time anyway. King Saul got into trouble for taking prisoners instead of killing the enemies. As to genocide, it was war. In wars genocides happen. A genocide of God’s enemies.
When you say we should comment motivated by love, can I ask, love for what? What love are you talking about? And is this something you expect from all commenters? As to the retorts, please let me apologize if you find my insistence on Bible accuracy to be overpowering, but those people who are twisting the scriptures to make them say something they’re not need to be told firmly, just as Jesus dealt with those doing the same in his day. I don’t think my comments have been unreasonable.
When I mentioned Love. I was talking about the frontlet band, worn by all true followers of Christ. This love is the identifier of the true congratulation. If someone were to come to meeting of JW’s or perhaps read a post, and somehow get the impression that these people are not motivated be love. Then that person or persons could not truly be Christian, or they would have had the frontlet band of Love. Remember, the good Samaritan. Thats the love I was referring to.
P.S-use “tab” button to get to the post comment then you can post longer thoughts,FYI worked for me.
Jesus was rather unscathing when confronting those who were twisting the scriptures for their own ends. Remember some things he called the Pharisees… offspring of vipers, from their father the devil.
In the same pattern, when people are trying to twist the Bible to say Jesus approved of homosexuality, when it is clear he doesn’t, and they refuse to listen to clear scriptural proof of that, then they need to be called out. This may at times look unloving, but it has principles behind it, as did Jesus when he used the whip.
Ricardo, I see the problem here. You still have eyes of faith. When you read an account in the bible, you look to vindicate your faith. If you read the same account with out faith, completely different outcome. For me to get you to see my point, may be impossible. Getting someone to “see” the bible without faith, is like describing to a blind man, what the color blue is. Without ever having seen blue, we have no words to describe it properly. Thats the real reason, JW’s push the need for faith so much, with out it, the “truth” is seen. Once seen, you cant unsee it.
@Imgonaburn,
I can empathise with you. I feel that your experience shows what an abusive org WT is. Similarly, my brother who is an elder says I should just leave the JW’s, and I probably won’t be present in the new system. Both your family and mine are like the pharisee praying to God saying, “Thank goodness I am not a sinner like my mother/brother.” (Luke 18:10-13)
If God is Love then surely the most important thing is Love? The fact that some people make this into the most important thing is God is somewhat a*se about face imho. Aren’t they both the same thing?
You mentioned ‘the fact that someone fell out of love is justification for leaving a family’ are you implying that in the context of marriage leading to divorce?
I fell out of love with the jw religion and it caused my family to shun/divorce me. I haven’t formed a relationship with another religion so no adultery involved.
I did however put up a Christmas tree last year. Yes, I know what you’re going to say…but I asked my jw adult children if they were ok with it beforehand, they said they didn’t want to control me and that I should do what I want. Now it seems like that was some sort of sick test because they used it against me and shunned me. How can you be so critical of the breakdown of families through divorce when this religion has divided so many families through its despicable shunning and disfellowshipping rules.
If a married couple divorce it can be done amicably but if a family is busted up by shunning someone who isn’t disfellowshipped then there’s no happy ending possible.
@Imgonaburn,
I can empathise with you. I feel that your experience shows what an abusive org WT is. Similarly, my brother who is an elder says I should just leave the JW’s, and I probably won’t be present in the new system. Both your family and mine are like the pharisee praying to God saying, “Thank goodness I am not a sinner like my mother/brother.” (Luke 18:10-13) Still, WE can act as Christians, even if our family have lost sight, right?
Indeed we can Ricardo. I don’t know which of us has fared better. You for retaining your Christian identity or me for losing mine ;-)
You can be your own interpretation of a Christian and I’ll be one of the millions of non religious worldly people who just try to be nice to others.
All this debating about what the scriptures say and mean goes over my head. My brain is no longer engaged by theological arguments. I’m interested in people not God. No offence intended to those who still believe. Live and let live.
It always seems to me that the bible is a commentary of what happens when people deviate from what god says is normal. There are consequences for that. Hence why there are specific laws. I don’t know if they are good or bad but they keep families together and productive. What Lot and daughters did was not the best of decisions and there were consequences down the family line. The bible seems to keep most citizens in check but it does not stop what people do. Homosexuality in animals is not spoken about because the laws were for humans. god considers it deviant for humans.He has his reasons . If we are all supposed to be gay now or tolerant does that make us new cult followers? Why is it wrong to want to NOT recruit anyone to our own brand of religion? Also why do gay people want all the rights of heterosexuals? ie marriage and babies? are they doing this to prove a point. We will die out if we all become gay is that what they want? I’m just putting this out there because it seems to me that society has no decency or value for just normal behaviour. There is this constant insistence of normalising everything reguardless of the consequences. As to the watchtower society its the girls they have a dig at isn’t it Why don’t they play out their bethel fantasies with some hunky real men with facial hair and attitude. They do so hate women that they have to soften their antigay propaganda with “safe” subject matter.I still believe god is not to be mocked whatever we sow we reap, good or bad