He wears a crumpled tan trench coat, stretched tight against his protruding belly; his blue shirt hangs open at the top, un-tucked at the bottom. Black pants hang loose- all the way down to the ankles – where his feet seem to scream in agony. Dress shoes have been replaced with black flat-bottomed slip-on sneakers with white borders.
Pushing a shopping cart full of whiskey bottles,
He’s not homeless. He’s not hungry. He’s Tony Morris, and he’s the brash, outspoken, often controversial co-leader of the worldwide religious movement known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
When Tony’s not seated at the helm of the multi-million dollar internet program “JW Broadcasting”, he’s jet-setting around the world in style, wearing pin-striped suits, gold jewelry, and silk pocket squares.
But not today.
Today Tony is just a man slipping across the border between New York and New Jersey, purchasing at least a dozen bottles of very expensive alcohol at the Ramsey Bottle King on Route 17.
“I used to just test ’em out and taste ’em” he says to another customer. “Yeah, … I’ve been to Scotland a number of times…I’m a little Scottish and Irish, so..I’m not prejudiced.” He gets a laugh from the customer.
It’s raining hard in Ramsey. Tony, wearing a black ascot cap, waddles under his own weight while pushing the bottle-laden shopping cart into the parking lot. By now, he’s discarded the ornate boxes which come with those pricey containers of scotch, and he’s managed to squeeze all that booze into the back seat of his white Cadillac. He drives off, presumably back to the multi-billion dollar corporate headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s Sunday morning. 11 AM.
It all seems so indulgent.
It’s no secret that consumption of alcohol at Jehovah’s Witness branch offices around the globe is not only a favorite
Witnesses take their cue from the Biblical passage at 1 Timothy chapter 5, verse 23, which says:
“Do not drink water any longer, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness”
It’s a free pass to drink, stomach ache or not.
The caveat
My closest friends graduated high school back in the 1980s. One by one they applied and were accepted – not into university- but into the World Headquarters complex of Jehovah’s Witnesses. This was considered the highest goal a young Witness could attain. Some of them are still there.
I grappled with pressure to apply for “Bethel” service. I was torn between the JW-endorsed meccas of Brooklyn and Wallkill and the freedom of life in the real world. One elder in my congregation, who had spent 6 years there, told me: “Bethel is no paradise, make no mistake. It’s full of politics, homosexuality, stress- and you’re not likely to get the job you want.”
The cons outweighed the pros- and I did not apply.
For years I trekked back and forth from Baltimore to spend weekends inside the Brooklyn complex, exploring the tunnels and bridges which connected the still-expanding network of real estate. It was purchased for many thousands, later sold for hundreds of millions.
I envisioned unity, kindness, friendships- a paradise amidst the unsettling and violent world around me. I loved the clean, manicured buildings – maintained in part by my friend Raymond. Ray was a gifted writer – yet found himself dangling from scaffolding each day of the week, pressure washing the filth which coated Watchtower’s wealth. He hated that job.
Raymond and my other friends quickly acquired a taste for alcohol in Brooklyn.
I had never even considered that this was a thing, but it was.
It was, for me, confirmation that Bethel was no utopia. While the female housekeepers were instructed to report any “questionable” music or reading material found inside the dorm-style rooms, bottles of whiskey and bourbon were left untouched. Alcohol was their coping mechanism.
Rutherford
The history of alcohol at Watchtower headquarters goes back a long way. Tales of Watchtower president Rutherford’s drinking are legendary. According to Watchtower historian Jim Penton, the Canadian Branch Overseer Walter Salter penned an open letter to Rutherford in 1937, in which he accused the president of heavy drinking and hypocrisy.
“Salter claimed that [Rutherford] had purchased ‘whiskey at $60.00 dollars a case ‘ for the Watchtower president ‘and cases of brandy and other liquors, to say nothing of untold cases of beer,’ all with the society’s money”
Penton goes on to describe Salter’s grievances regarding Rutherford, stating that “he sends us out from door to door to face the enemy while he goes from ‘drink to drink’ and tells us if we don’t, we are going to be destroyed.”
Rutherford, an attorney and fill-in judge, acquired control of the Watchtower organization following the death of Charles Russell in 1916. One year later, Congress proposed the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which banned the manufacturing and sale of intoxicating liquor. Congress ratified the Amendment in 1919.
Rutherford was furious.
The “judge” used his religious platform to attack the Anti-Saloon League (ASL) – the organization which lobbied for Prohibition. The ASL was inspired largely by evangelical Protestant groups who felt that alcohol was responsible for the decay of society.
The Watchtower President became increasingly critical of the U.S. Government, and in 1930 he gave a speech named “Prohibition, League of Nations – Born of God or the Devil, Which?” This speech was transcribed into a 66 page booklet bearing the same name as the speech.
Says Rutherford:
“The Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is clearly in violation of God’s expressed law, and especially so because America claims to be a Christian nation…
“I have submitted to you a number of Bible texts plainly stating that Jehovah God approves the making, possession, or use of wine. There is not one text to be found in the Bible that prohibits the making, possession, or use of wine.”
In 1933, Congress adopted the Twenty-first Amendment, repealing the Eighteenth Amendment. Prohibition ended. Rutherford celebrated.
Within ten years, Rutherford was dead, and the new president of Watchtower, Nathan Knorr, expanded the Jehovah’s Witness religious empire. Knorr launched the “Gilead” missionary school while soliciting money from Jehovah’s Witness members to purchase more Brooklyn real estate- including the massive Squibb complex.
Knorr
Knorr’s presidency marked a new era in the development of Jehovah’s Witnesses. For the first time,
Knorr became the business end of the JWs- and Frederick W. Franz emerged as the Religion’s oracle.
While Franz pontificated on the visions of Ezekiel and Revelation, Knorr sent missionaries into the field, launched the Theocratic Ministry School, and gobbled up more and more property in Brooklyn.
Like Rutherford, Knorr knew how to take the edge off.
In Apocalypse Delayed, third edition, author Jim Penton states:
“Since Rutherford’s death, drinking has continued to be common at Bethel and Watch Tower officials who can afford to do so will have cabinets well stocked with expensive liquors. Even the business-like no-nonsense Nathan Knorr is still renowned among Bethelites, Witness missionaries, and former personal friends for the twenty-year-old Bell’s Scotch Whiskey which he would serve to
Richard Kelly arrived in Brooklyn in 1962, full of optimism. He stepped off the train, haled a taxi, and by the afternoon he received his first assignment: smashing bottles.
According to Kelly’s 2008 autobiography Growing up in Mama’s club: A Childhood Perspective of Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“They sent me to work right away, breaking beer, wine, and hard liquor bottles into unrecognizable shards. This was done so that the worldly people who picked up the trash wouldn’t see how much alcohol was consumed at Bethel, which was significant.”
Kelly soon discovered that the use of alcohol went straight to the top of the Jehovah’s Witness religion. He continues:
“By mid-afternoon, with the sounds of breaking glass still reverberating in my head, I was escorted to a nearby five-story brownstone. Here my job was to clean the apartment on the second floor. About thirty minutes into my work I realized I was cleaning Hayden Covington’s Home. He was the [organization’s] attorney and a keynote speaker…But that day, in the presence of his redheaded wife and small children, Covington wore a suit that he must have slept in the night before, looked like he had been drinking, and rattled off expletives… This was my first exposure to the double standards for the [organization’s] top officials.”
Kelly’s instincts regarding Covington proved to be accurate.
Hayden C. Covington was a Texas native, born in 1911, and died November 21st, 1978. While Watchtower recounts his legal victories with great admiration, his legendary alcoholism was omitted from the pages of the organization’s literature. As was his disfellowshipping for the same vice.
Covington served as Watchtower’s chief counsel from 1939 to 1963, and was, according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, the only non-“anointed” Governing Body member in Watchtower’s history.
There is no doubt that his alcoholism and subsequent disfellowshipping eliminated his chances of a life-history profile in the pages of the Watchtower, but his wife Dorothy Covington did receive an honorable bio in the JW.org “newsroom” when she passed away in 2015.
Franz
John Young sits quietly in his Kentucky home, waiting for his husband to come home from work. “That’s my therapy dog” he says jokingly, as he pauses for a moment, recalling events from 1989, while petting Lucy.
“I put them in a box,” says John, referring to his mental images and recollections from the year of his life spent at Watchtower’s headquarters in Brooklyn. “Most of the memories I cemented in a vault like Yucca Mountain.”
As we spoke, he opened the vault.
John was just 19 years old when he arrived in New York. He was raised by a devout Jehovah’s Witness family, and while battling his own issues with alcohol, he suddenly found himself in the one place which was not an alcohol-free zone:
Bethel
“Bethel had its own alcohol-abuse program,” said John, “and I volunteered to go see one of their doctors.”
John described the assortment of in-house medical personnel at Brooklyn headquarters, a hodge-podge of physicians who worked for free, and catered to the thousands of Witness workers who swarmed Brooklyn Heights.
“Then they assigned me to Franz. I was considered one of the more spiritually-exemplary young Bethelites back in 1989, and they designated me as a babysitter for President Franz.”
By the time John had arrived in Bethel, Franz had replaced Knorr as president of the Watchtower Society, following Knorr’s death in 1978.
He describes working a full day at headquarters, then immediately running over to the Watchtower president’s residence to sit with him during the 6 PM to midnight shift. He would do it all over again the next day.
“I was just 19 at the time, and it was against the law to drink*. So it distressed me very much that the president of the organization would frequently call me over and say ‘grab me a beer from the fridge, son- and while you’re over there, grab one for yourself.'”
[* In 1985, the State of New York raised the drinking age from 19 to 21. Persons under 21 were prohibited from purchasing or possessing alcohol with the intent to consume, unless given by their parent or legal guardian.]
John described Franz’ refrigerator.
“It was a full-sized fridge- not one of those tiny ones we Bethelites had. But they brought Franz his meals, so there really wasn’t any food in the fridge. Just a few snacks. And beer. It wasn’t unusual for him to drink 4 or 5 beers.”
It seemed a foregone conclusion that everyone working at Bethel would not only handle their liquor – they would embrace it, and Watchtower’s president was no exception.
In Vino Veritas
It means, in wine there is
A few years ago, Raymond, now a Circuit Overseer, and his wife Leslie sat in my garden, adjacent to the running waterfall. We were relaxed, closing out the day with a meal grilled outside. The weather was perfect, and so was the wine.
Earlier that day, Leslie told me that a bottle of wine gifted by another friend was very nice. She lied.
She hated it. Of course, I would never have known this, had she not sipped her way into that confession.
We enjoyed a different bottle of something she really liked, so much so that her inhibitions melted quickly, and by the end of the evening, she was slurring her words, emphatically proclaiming how horrible that home-made bottle of wine was, much to our surprise. The addition of expensive Scotch and Grand Marnier surely played a role in her abrupt honesty.
Raymond was right there with her- a missionary and well-respected traveling elder – savoring the fine spirits. The same sort approved by Governing Body member Tony Morris.
On another occasion, Raymond and Leslie took me to the apartment of a Circuit Overseer in Columbia, Maryland. The lovely couple prepared a nice meal for the six of us. The moment we arrived, we were obliged to answer but one question.
“Do you drink gin and tonic?” the traveling Overseer asked.
“I’ve never had one” I replied, “But I’ll give it a try.” And so we drank. And drank. And ate. And before long, the in vino veritas principle kicked in, and I found myself listening to two Circuit Overseers debate why so many Jehovah’s Witnesses were now declaring themselves “anointed”- or heaven-bound brothers of Christ who believe they will soon be immortal. I’ll leave that story for another day.
Raymond was my best friend during my high-school years, and somewhere between his departure for Brooklyn Bethel and subsequent graduation from Gilead Missionary School, he had acquired an upscale taste in alcohol. It all seemed to correspond to his increased responsibility in the JW organization. Pioneering. Bethel. Leaving Bethel. Pioneering. Missionary School. Africa. Circuit Overseer. Stress. Medication. Alcohol.
The more he was expected to do- the more he drank. And I suppose when you examine the life of Tony Morris, it’s not much different.
Tony’s rise to the top was meteoric and unexpected. You see- he’s older than me, but oddly enough I’ve attended meetings at least three years longer than Tony. He was baptized July of 1971, just four years before Watchtower’s inferred Armageddon date of 1975.
In Morris’ own account of his life, he recalls the horrors of Vietnam, where he served as a medic:
“As I sat behind the Kingdom Hall where no one could see me, the memories of Vietnam—the smell of burned human flesh and the sight of blood and gore—began to overwhelm me. ” – Watchtower, May 2015
Tony no doubt returned from Vietnam as did so many others- with post-traumatic stress. And this often leads to alcoholism. Whether or not he suffers from this disease-, we can’t say. But one thing is certain- Morris seems transfixed by death and
In 2018, Morris described Armageddon to a crowd gathered in Trinidad and Tobago:
“So here in Trinidad…[there’s] gonna be dead people everywhere…oh yeah. It’s gonna shake you up. You’re probably gonna be down on your knees. But that’s what’s coming- it’s a reality.”
I often ponder what goes through the mind of someone who has witnessed the bloodshed in Vietnam, then projects the very same violence upon the entire world, but with God as the architect of death.
While uneducated, poverty-stricken Jehovah’s Witnesses languish in Eritrean and Russian prisons, and Witness children are urged to donate their ice cream money, Morris and his seven co-leaders sip Whiskey and enjoy the wealth of a multi-billion dollar religious organization, nestled in New York’s lush and tranquil Sterling Forest.
I see nothing wrong with sharing a drink with friends. But for what it’s worth, if the end of this world is imminent and lives are at stake, I’d think this religion’s spiritual leader might show a little more discretion, and a little less indulgence.
But I’m not Tony.
Editor’s Note:
While the Alcohol culture at the Jehovah’s Witness global compounds is cause for concern, JW Survey does not endorse the opinion that all Witnesses drink or abuse alcohol.
Additional resources:
Very well written piece. The real size of the multiple problems facing Watchtower is now becoming widely known, and the hypocrisy exposed, by your research and activism- thank you!
This article brought back memories. I came to Bethel at 19, just before the drinking age was lifted from 19 to 21. While that stopped me from buying beer that didn’t stop my roommate or anyone else on my floor from buying alcohol for me or I inviting me to countless alcohol-infused gatherings. I will add to thus that the spirit of brotherhood and unity I expected to find there was non-existent. I encountered many burned-out, cynical adults who stayed for no reason other than they had no idea how they would survive in the outside world. Glad I got out while I was still young.
Separated from the Flock,
Yes, that seems to be the norm with all of the flock…burned out & depressed looking.
This is a really well written article. I’m not surprised by this though. Just watching him on their tele-evangelising tv show, you can see he (TM3) looks & sounds like an old drunk. I’m not much of a drinker (never have been) so it stands out to me. In fact, I didn’t really associate with drinkers until I converted to the religion. I was really shocked at how much drinking went on with these people.
I also think that long term heavy drinking makes people evolve into angry & ugly personalities. So what he’s saying in Trinidad at the Convention doesn’t surprise me at all.
Several years ago I made a visit to a friend who was serving in the translation department of Bethel in East Timor. He requested I bring one thing with me: a bottle of Johnny Walker from Duty Free. He explained he could use it to trade favours in Bethel. He was also very defensive of the amount of alcohol he drank when I made note of it. Seemed very strange to me at the time. Having seen what alcohol has done to the Asian culture in which I was serving, I had given up alcohol totally, even to the present. But from the accounts I have seen lately, such as in this article, it seems that my friend’s request for alcohol to be brought to him in Bethel is not at all unusual.
Thanks John. A very interesting article. One problem with drinking a lot is that there is a percentage of the general population that is genetically predisposed to alcoholism. With the thousands of people working at Bethels some are bound to have that genetic predisposition.
But also as you stated, alcohol can be used as a coping mechanism. God’s true messengers don’t need those types of coping mechanisms. Because God supports them. And they believe he does. So why turn to alcohol? Instead they daily turn to God which is what WT teaches but doesn’t always do.
If that bunch of so-called anointed from Bethels were anointed they definitely would not need to lean on alcohol. Especially on a regular basis that covers many years of their adult lives. If those Bethelites that claim they are anointed were anointed that wouldn’t be happening. And if Bethel was a house of God it wouldn’t be happening.
I don’t remember everything I’ve read from WT, but my memory is pretty good. And I don’t go and look up stuff, like you do John to write these articles. But I believe I read in the past that WT was okay with JWS drinking some alcohol before coming to the Kingdom Halls. Why would a person do that? Why would they write that is okay?
The WT is an overly formal organization, setting strict standards that go way beyond standards set by the first century church. It used to be in some congregations in Southern California that a brother was not allowed on stage if his shirt wasn’t white. Because WT let the congregation elders set dress standards.
It seems to me that the organization feels it can herd people into the image it feels will please God, instead of following what the Bible says pleases God. All the time while WT does that herding it speaks, “we just teach the Bible”. And it speaks, “no one else teaches it but us”. The proof is in the pudding of this claim.
You know, looking back at it, I think WT got us because of this herding process. It’s like we got on a bus as civilians, going to an army boot camp. And after that boot camp training we were Watchtower soldiers. I heard that a lot of the soldiers in Vietnam took drugs, like the Bethelites use alcohol.
My father in law served in the Korean War and the Vietnam War. He hardly spoke about either to me. But I asked him about it. He said Vietnam was real bad. United States policy put it’s citizens in those circumstances. Similarly WT creates policies that stress Jehovah’s Witnesses. There is no need for it. It only happens because that’s what WT wants.
But they ARE anointed – anointed with booze
I saw a video by some guy called Derro or something like that, wearing a ridiculous JW.ORG badge on his coat, he said he doesn’t represent the JDubs but he does represent Jesus… (which is hilarious in itself), and he said that the video of Tony was “photoshopped or edited”… The man was either absolutely delusional or absolutely, thoroughly attempting to deceive others.
I’ve seen the video of Tony Morris snaking around the bottle-shop and it is not, in any way, “edited” as Derro claims it was. Of course I didn’t finish watching the rest of his video, it took only seconds to realize that this man was not quite, well, stable.
I’m curious to know if the JDubs have said the video was edited, or have they explained why Tony Morris, the man who thinks he’s going to kill people along with his “big brother” Jesus at armageddon bought so much whiskey or if he has been publicly reproved yet.
Thank you for informing us about the substance abuse culture in the organization, it was a great article.
My dad was an elder and I remembered a gathering where they were all laughing loud and one elder said, “We’re not allowed much, but we sure can drink!” I didn’t realize at the time, but they were probably drunk.
A wonderful and insightful article John.
It certainly explains to me and perhaps other readers that the spirt directed organization is, in fact, alcohol spirit directed. Thus the constant changes in doctrine as the “spirit” inspired faithful slave stumbles from one guess to another dragging their adherents along with them. One long daisy chain, conga line, pub crawl that has lasted for over a hundred years now.
Time to sober up all you honest hearted ones and smell the coffee! You are being duped by a bunch of alcoholics who have nothing but contempt for you. Don’t continue to be fooled. The Watchtower, that claims to teach the Bible, does not follow its admonition. 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 tells us that abusers of alcohol will not inherit God’s Kingdom and yet these same ones, glorious ones at that, dispense your spiritual food at the proper time?! Is it truly spiritual food or spiritual excremental nonsense foisted on you as nourishment?
Is it any wonder why their doctrines are so different from what was once taught as “truth” and now not mentioned or explained away with statements such as “that was the truth then but this is the truth now”. That is until we, at the Watchtower, decide it’s time for an adjustment and the releasing of more New Light. Friends Truth never changes, but Watchtower lies do.
Those who thirst for the truth about the truth need to do their own unhindered research and stop being sheeple led about by “blind” drunken shepherds. Time to wake up and sober up!
Well done! I can’t wait to hear the CO’s theories on the expansion of anointed J-Dubs
My sister was married to an elder’s son. All the clique crowd would hang out at his house on the enclosed porch and drink. What a bunch of alcoholics!
The very fact that someone had to be told to drink some wine for medicinal purposes, in the bible, proves they did not drink it on a regular basis. Wine, as well as meat were used on special festive occasions.
That’s it – daJudge, Freddy the Oracle, Swingin’ Swingle, Charly Little, TM3 and their lot need their booze FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES, bec. they need HEALING – they are SICK. They are suffering from DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR which needs healing. THAT’S what their booze is for.
saying you believe in something is almost irrelevant. It’s a persons behavior that truly demonstrates what they believe. Thanks for the insight, Tony.
For a demonstration of what people truly believe look no further than the southern border where refugee’s are reaching out to the most christian nation on earth for help and being welcomed by millions of Fundamentalist Christians putting their faith into practice and not a white supremacist among them. So touched. What!??….it’s true!!
Wow.
So that’s where the ice cream money goes. Hmmmmm.
I was going to try to come up with some kind of witty, humorous, satirical comment, but there’s not much point. I could never outdo the lunacy of the actual story.
Incidentally, that’s the same reason I stopped making Trump jokes. I’ve learned to just sit back and enjoy the free entertainment those ass-clowns provide.
Tony Morris and people like him work from the top down. When people at the top tears us down all becomes broken. People who drag you down COME from a place of brokenness. Broken people are angry, resentful, insecure and fearful. Walking away from a cult is called waking up and as we build from the ground up instead of the top down we learn people at the top tear us down. As we build from the bottom up we come into ourselves discover our centrality in our hearts and we heal we are saved by being calm and happy and gradually the anger leaves. This is all about waking up. I don’t hate Jehovah’s Witnesses because I remember what it was like being brain washed. It took several years for me to fully wake up and be really happy again. I feel good about myself now but it took me a few years to be this way.
All of TM3’s morbid talk of fiery death & destruction is just another way of terrorizing his followers into mindless submission, akin to the way the Catholic Church has historically used the concept of Hellfire.
Typical 1984 stuff. Fear & propaganda.
When I was a jw my close friend lian was my drinking buddy. She could drink without ever getting drunk I had my limits. Being the dutiful jdub she would often have the co and whiff for dinner. To my wonderment the cow CO’s wife bought lian a bottle of whisky as a thankyou at the end of the visit. First of all I thought it strange her giving a gift as they were always on the take and alcohol not flowers or chocolates. Oh well must have had direction from the gb that rotten fruit didn’t fall too far from the tree. Cheers all ruthlee
Drinking does not mean one is alcoholic, but constant consumption certainly would mean one has no inhibitions, or a higher threshhold measuring “moderation”. But, the outline above of executives hosting a bar in the office harkens back to the heady days of the 1950’s and 1960’s when returning WWII veterans (men–think, “Mad Men”) used alcohol to release stress and cope, as much as smoking, in the trenches on the battlefield. When this “battle” moved to the corporate offices, or enterprise offices, the booze and cigs came with it [recall that for years JW’s did not ban cigarette smoking (it was some time in the early 1970’s when that was banished)].
What this article does highlight is the avarice of the leadership in siphoning off the last widow’s coins to line their Armani and Versace silk-lined suit pockets to afford the top-of-the-line hooch.
One last parting glance, given AM3’s obsession with the gay “boys” and now the booze, there’s only one line to wrap it up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkqfXTB5Pdw
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness you should look up Luke 21:8, which tells you not to follow people coming on the basis of Christ’s name saying the end is imminent. Read Matthew 24:36 through the end of that chapter, and you will see Christ gave no sign that will indicate that his return is imminent. He stated when he returned it will catch even his church by surprise.
The signs that he gave were three, when Jerusalem was to be destroyed, a sign designating THE END of this worldwide system, and a sign showing he has returned.
He did not give a sign of any LAST DAYS. Biblically the LAST DAYS started at Christ’s death. Until that time, except for dealing with the Jewish people, God let mankind go in its own ways. After Christ’s death God didn’t. Instead he began to build his kingdom through preaching about Christ that’s been carried on since. The Bible calls that time of this preaching the Last Days. Because at the end of this preaching this world’s systems end.
There used to be a website where a Jehovah’s Witness and an ex-Jehovah’s Witness would turn every topic for conversation into a debate about the trinity. Even when this was brought to the attention of readers they still did it. I don’t know why. But I can only guess the Jehovah’s Witness, that went by the name Pruffsammy, must have thought his conviction that there is no trinity would save him. And also because he didn’t celebrate birthdays or other holidays, or believe in literal hell fire, or the immortality of the soul. And probably mainly because he followed the Governing Body.
Is that and following the GB what the Bible claims leads to salvation? If so why then did Christ say not to follow people coming in his name teaching the end is imminent? Do you see ANYONE else doing that except Watchtower?
If you don’t see anyone else preaching the end is imminent except Watchtower, or even if you do, then isn’t Christ telling you, at Luke 21:8, not to follow WT? If he is telling you that, then he is also telling the people behind the doors you knock on not to follow you.
Doesn’t that explain why it’s so difficult to get your Bible studies baptized better than just believing they don’t have a heart desirous of truth, and all those people have bad heartstrings ?
Ricardo said how many Jehovah’s Witnesses were added in the United States last service year? Was it 3000? That’s how many Witnesses are in the one circuit where I live. People are not listening? Why?
I went to revisit what Ricardo wrote. He didn’t say 3000 Witnesses were added in the USA over the last service year. He said 3000 were added in the USA over the last 4 service years.
Is that Holy Spirit at work? If you think so, compare that result to the result that was obtained after Peter spoke.
The United States is huge. Driving 9 hours or so a day at freeway speeds it would take you 5 days to cross it. We had 100,000 illegal aliens that we know of cross our border last month alone. Los Angeles County houses about 13 million people. Those facts speak to the size of the United States. Yet it took WT 4 years to increase its members in the whole USA by 3,000? Is that because it is spirit directed? What about the result Peter got? By comparison that is? Who is Spirit directed?
This is what really gets me. WT claims God’s spirit bears witness with their anointed members. But at the same time it teaches God does not contact people today. Why don’t you start counting your field service time in the same way, bearing witness without attempting to contact anyone. Witnessing without witnessing.
If you keep doing what your’e doing, messenger, you’ll wake up. Reason is the devils harlot. A large percentage of Christians who attend University become atheists in their first year. The road to atheism is littered with bibles that have been read cover to cover and understood. Only by cherry picking a small percentage of the bible can the belief be maintained. Watch out.
Outandabout, what exactly is the percentage of Christians who become atheists in their first year at college? What specifically makes them abandon Christianity? English 101? Biology 101? College Algebra? Marijuana and alcohol? Any Christian who abandons Christianity after a year of college is extremely susceptible to brain-washing or peer pressure.
I don’t know, messenger. I just thought I’d put that out there for you to chew on. But I suppose if any subject is going to make a person abandon Christianity it would have to be science or anthropology or biology or archaeology, in fact any number of areas that expose the foundational falsehood of creationism.
Like this one; If only eight people survived the Flood, how did the population become large enough in about 100 yrs to not only build the Tower of Babel but also to populate the cities of Erech, Accad, Calneh, Ninevah, Rehoboth, Calah, Resen, Sidon,Carar, Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, Lasha, Mesha, Sehar, not to mention an Egyptian population large enough for a Pharaoah to rule over. Then theres the population of China and Asia and other parts unknown at the time.
Answers in Genesis give an answer to this but their formula results in todays population being trillions upon trillions. They also give an alternative formula for a similar problem elsewhere but I guess they’re just hoping nobody notices. Lying to defend a truth. This is how desperate it has become.
The person who wrote about Noah and Nimrod in the Bible was Moses. It’s an accepted fact by Hebrew scholars that the Jews back in Moses’ day called their grandfather, great grandfather, etc. the same word they used for father. So, unless you have some source outside of the Bible that tells you when Noah lived, you are only assuming that date. Or you are believing someone else’s assumptions.
What if instead some of those begets spoken of in the Bible, the births, actually happened generations down the line, generations that actually include gaps? That could throw of your time line.
of should read off
FEAR – False Evidence Appearing Real.
Fear And Propaganda – FAP. lol
Big Brother take note: Surveillance can work BOTH ways.
Heh heh heh
Please note this and support it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMsGpMagng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4kulVk-04M
Here it is with subtitles in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMsGpMagng
Wait – that’s the same link as the one above. Why does the screenshot appear with subtitles auf Deutsch ???
If anyone is wondering where is Ricardo, please let it be known that I did write a comment but after I pushed Post Comment it went into the ether and disappeared.
I tried again but the same thing happened. I don’t think this site likes me.
Hi Mark O’Donnell,
I just finished watching the video about your invitation to a Committee Meeting. I, too, was invited to a Judicial Hearing for the same reason: Causing Divisions. I knew the elders were after me, so I put a “For Rent” sign on my apartment door and hoped they wouldn’t bother with me and I could leave the country. But the elders slipped a letter under the door and sent a certified letter to my previous place of work. When I contacted an elder by phone to find out what Causing Divisions was all about, he said it was too serious an issue to simply talk over the phone about, but that I should come to the JC meeting and find out.
So I went to the Committee meeting. The proof of Causing Divisions was given. I had emailed my brother, (who is an elder) about a situation in the congregation where the body of elders had made up a counterfeit letter from the Governing Body, in response to my friend who had taken his case to the GB. My friend appealed to the GB to do something about the elders who were lying to cover up their wrongdoing. The elders responded with a fake letter from the GB, telling him to stop seeking justice. When the CO investigated, he said the elders had committed a serious wrongdoing, but not one elder was disciplined for it. I told my brother all about this in the email, saying that the elders were a bunch of bullies. My brother dutifully sent this email to the elders, who then used it to show I was trying to influence others that there was something wrong with the organization. I had also sent an SMS to a friend in the congregation about what the elders had done, and this was produced as further evidence of influencing others. And then, when my victimized friend could take it no longer and gave the elder a few punches at the Kingdom Hall and I stood up and said, “This is what happens when the elders abuse the sheep,” this was viewed as supporting Korah rather than the elders. Although I said I was supporting a victim of abuse, the elders saw it as Causing Divisions, and because they said a pattern of behaviour was evident then no repentance was possible and I was kicked out.
Likewise, you have shown a pattern of behaviour. You have been supporting Korah (Lloyd Evans) and have been bringing out negative things about the organization. No repentance is possible.Get ready for the inevitable.
By the way, ever since I was d’fed one year ago, the elders have shown no interest in my son, who is a publisher. In the congregation which my son and I attend at the moment, an elder said he would like to invite my son over to spend time with his family. But shortly afterwards the elder’s son was d’fed and the elder moved congregation out of embarrassment. I have saved my son’s field ministry reports for the past year, but I don’t know where his cards are. And it’s not as if I can ask the elders, I am d’fed. Why don’t the shepherds have pity for the boy with no spiritual head, a little sheep, and at least ask him if he has a report to hand in?
Ricardo- not sure why some comments are held for moderation. I think it has to do with the algorithms used by the comment program. In the future, we will switch to a different comment management program
I had more to say to Mark, but for some reason this site does not let me continue.
I wanted to say:
Likewise, you have shown a pattern of behaviour. You have been supporting Korah and have been bringing out negative things about the organization. No repentance is possible. Get ready for the inevitable.
By the way, ever since I was d’fed one year ago, the elders have shown no interest in my son, who is a publisher. In the congregation which my son and I attend at the moment, an elder said he would like to invite my son over to spend time with his family. But shortly afterwards the elder’s son was d’fed and the elder moved congregation out of embarrassment. I have saved my son’s field ministry reports for the past year, but I don’t know where his cards are. We haven’t been informed. And it’s not as if I can ask the elders, I am d’fed. Why don’t the shepherds have pity for the boy with no spiritual head, a little sheep, and at least ask him if he has a report to hand in?
This site is really bizarre. It lets me comment paragraph by paragraph, but not as one complete comment. I feel so frustrated.
Very interesting but sad piece of information. What has touched me is the mention of Russian and eritrian JWs who are told not to pursue higher education but languishing in prisons, while tony sips the most expensive wine in the new headquarters. Life is so unfair that while many JWs are told to simplify their lives and live in squaller, the leaders live in posh and serene environments like the new HQ. Its NOT GOOD.
Hi Mark. I just watched the video where you received the invitation to a committee meeting. Your experience has some similarities to mine, although after the elders initially banged forcefully on my door I had been hiding in my unit with a ‘For Rent’ sign on the door hoping they would leave me alone until I could leave the country. However, the elders sent a registered letter to my previous workplace, and slipped another under my door. When I called them to ask what Causing Divisions meant the elder said he wasn’t going to talk about such important matters over the phone and told me to come to the committee meeting.
So I went. The proof the elders offered was an email I had sent my brother (an elder) discussing the situation in the congregation where the elders had made up a counterfeit letter from the GB telling my friend to stop seeking justice for elders lying to him. The CO looked into the matter, said it was serious wrongdoing on the elders’ part but the elders were not disciplined. I explained in the email that the elders were bullies and using their power wrongly. My brother had kindly sent this email to the elders, who in the JC meeting used it as proof I was trying to influence others to think badly of the organization. I had sent a message to a friend about what the elders had done with the fake GB letter, and this SMS was given as further proof that I was trying to cause divisions. But the main proof was that when my friend snapped in the Kingdom Hall and punched the elder responsible for his bad treatment a number of times, I yelled out, “This is what happens when the elders abuse the sheep. ” I had sided with Korah instead of siding with the elders.
I explained that I was supporting a victim of abuse, not supporting Korah, but they disagreed. They said that as this was a pattern of behavior, no repentance was possible. And I was kicked out.
The same arguments can be used in your case: you have been supporting Korah (Lloyd Evans) and publicizing negative news about the organization which can influence others. This has become a pattern of your behavior so no repentance is possible.
Since being d’fed a year ago, no elder has tried to contact or encourage my son, who is a publisher. An elder in the congregation my son and I currently attend said he would like to invite my son out with his family for encouragement, but the elder’s son got d’fed shortly after and the elder moved congregation in embarrassment. I have kept my son’s field service reports each month for the last year but I don’t know where his cards are and no elders have asked for his report. And it’s not as if I can ask them, I am d’fed. Do they care at all for the little sheep?
Anyway, prepare yourself for the inevitable.
Hi Mark O’Donnell,
I just finished watching the video about your invitation to a Committee Meeting. I, too, was invited to a Judicial Hearing for the same reason: Causing Divisions. I knew the elders were after me, so I put a “For Rent” sign on my apartment door and hoped they wouldn’t bother with me and I could leave the country. But the elders slipped a letter under the door and sent a certified letter to my previous place of work. When I contacted an elder by phone to find out what Causing Divisions was all about, he said it was too serious an issue to simply talk over the phone about, but that I should come to the JC meeting and find out.
So I went to the Committee meeting. The proof of Causing Divisions was given. I had emailed my brother, (who is an elder) about a situation in the congregation where the body of elders had made up a counterfeit letter from the Governing Body, in response to my friend who had taken his case to the GB. My friend appealed to the GB to do something about the elders who were lying to cover up their wrongdoing. The elders responded with a fake letter from the GB, telling him to stop seeking justice. When the CO investigated, he said the elders had committed a serious wrongdoing, but not one elder was disciplined for it. I told my brother all about this in the email, saying that the elders were a bunch of bullies. My brother dutifully sent this email to the elders, who then used it to show I was trying to influence others that there was something wrong with the organization. I had also sent an SMS to a friend in the congregation about what the elders had done, and this was produced as further evidence of influencing others. And then, when my victimized friend could take it no longer and gave the elder a few punches at the Kingdom Hall and I stood up and said, “This is what happens when the elders abuse the sheep,” this was viewed as supporting Korah rather than the elders. Although I said I was supporting a victim of abuse, the elders saw it as Causing Divisions, and because they said a pattern of behaviour was evident then no repentance was possible and I was kicked out.
Likewise, you have shown a pattern of behaviour. You have been supporting Korah (Lloyd Evans) and have been bringing out negative things about the organization. No repentance is possible.Get ready for the inevitable.
By the way, ever since I was d’fed one year ago, the elders have shown no interest in my son, who is a publisher. In the congregation which my son and I attend at the moment, an elder said he would like to invite my son over to spend time with his family. But shortly afterwards the elder’s son was d’fed and the elder moved congregation out of embarrassment. I have saved my son’s field ministry reports for the past year, but I don’t know where his cards are. And it’s not as if I can ask the elders, I am d’fed. Why don’t the shepherds have pity for the boy with no spiritual head, a little sheep, and at least ask him if he has a report to hand in?
You said: “… my victimized friend could take it no longer and gave the elder a few punches at the Kingdom Hall.” A punch is a blow with the fist. In the city where I live, if you hit somebody with a closed fist you get thrown in jail. Did the victimized elder call the police on your victimized friend?
@exprimisset, the elders don’t take their brothers to court. Kicking them out of the organization where they become pariahs to their friends and family is more than enough punishment. Plus, this was in an Asian country where the Witnesses really don’t want unnecessary attention.
Victimized elder? Ha ha, there are many adjectives I would use, but victimized is not one of them. Were the Jews which Jesus chased around the temple with a whip ‘victimized’?
News flash Ricardo!
Anyone WT catches on this website or similar sites, if they are seen making negative comments about WT or its elders, is going to get disfellowshipped. Apostasy or causing divisions will be the charge brought. WT has a valid point in making that determination according to its policies.
Your situation is different. Since they nailed you while the only evidence that might have been presented was that email you sent your brother. They probably had other evidence against you, even if additional evidence wasn’t presented due to their two witness rule or for some other reason.
I didn’t see Mark’s video. If WT is attempting to charge him because of commenting here I find it interesting to be happening right now. You see the founder of another large activist site against WT was recently summoned to a judicial hearing also. Even though his site has been active for about four years. And he does not attend the Kingdom Hall, nor has he attended for years.
I am sure WT would like to catch all of us, poo poo any rebuttals we might offer, and send us down the road.
Do you still want to get reinstated, and If so why?
@Messenger, I have been taking my son to various churches for him to have some experience with different Christian groups. We went to the SDA church- with seating for more than 150 people there were only 40 in attendance. We visited the Christadelphians- with a similar amount of seating the attendance was 25. It looks very much like these groups will die out in the next 5-10 years. I imagine a similar situation for Watchtower, what with so many congregations closing at present and the decade of shame in process. I want to be around to see the crumbling gain pace, leading to widespread exodus, whether I am reinstated or not. The fear which some friends have of being seen with a d’fed person makes it inconvenient. They know the elders can d’f them even if they are seen once with me, as elders don’t need to follow the elders guidebook, as Raymond Franz found out. So, being a Witness but being able to slowly present TTATT to fellow Witnesses is the preferred way to go.
There are some positives to gain from the meetings, of course. There are Christian values and principles which are valuable. I know I can get these same values elsewhere, but better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. I want to see how the future pans out, whether it will go according to my expectations. I want to use the organization to help me worship Jehovah while at the same time not be used by it. And give the elders a pain in the butt every time they see me.
Ricardo,
Your last paragraph speaks volumes; volumes of pathetic nonsense. Hasn’t the past year shown you anything or taught you anything? You are absolutely the most pitiful PTSD, abused victim I know of. Going back to the Hall for reinstatement or anything else is tantamount to looking for better accommodations on the RMS Titanic. The only survivors of that disaster are the ones that made it into the lifeboats and rowed away.
There is absolutely no Truth in ‘The Truth’, period. If this organization ever had God’s backing, (and I don’t believe for one minute it ever did) it sure doesn’t have it now. It is as much a part of “Babylon the Great” as any other faith. Their decade long involvement with the U.N. proves as much. The only reason they resigned is because they were outed, like a kid with their hand caught in the cookie jar! What is more it is run by the evil slave personified. Look at the scriptures for yourself to see how the evil slave behaves and how it treats the other slaves of Christ (Matt. 24:48). Looking to the Watchtower for help in serving God is like looking in a septic tank for a refreshing drink of clean water!
Sitting there in the Hall shows everyone, the sheeple, your ‘loving elders’, and your son, what a good abused victim you are. Truly, you are in need of professional counseling and I, for one, hope you get it. However, if you persist in staying in Babylon and ignoring the admonition of the angel in mid-heaven then you will surely suffer its plagues when it goes down. But if you like being exploited and abused stay exactly where you are and take it without complaint.
I pray that you wise up and get the professional counseling you so desperately need.
Big B
I was listening to a tape recording of Revelation today. And it struck that the beast spoken of that was but is not, the one that had the death stroke but came back to life (Revelation chapter13) might represent the Roman empire-existing when John wrote the book-as the original beast, and then the European Union, or the United Nations or some similar union of nations might be its reincarnation.
If so that takes the League Of Nations completely out of the picture. And it is the close proximity in time between the League Of Nations and the United Nations that lends some merit to WT’s claim the end is now imminent.
But if, on the other hand, that first beast was Rome under Nero, then in the picture of these beasts they are not proximate to each other in time. And if so their presentation does not lend nearly as much credibility to WT’s claim that the end is upon us RIGHT NOW!
Right or wrong Luke 21 : 8 is still valid. WT, who told you to preach the end is imminent, when Christ said you must not do so, and that the message you preach could destroy the faith of some?
Ricardo…walk away. Forget them. Get the hell out. Every moment you agonize over the situation is more of your life you’re giving to them. They had power over you before and they have power over you know even if you don’t realize it. Your parents did their best given their level of understanding at the time. Here’s a little poem for you by Philip Larkin;
They f–k you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were f–ked up in their turn
By fools in old style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have kids yourself.
Once you begin to understand yourself, that is when the true journey begins. But WT doesn’t want that journey to even begin and even after you think you’ve left, you haven’t. They want as much of you as they can get and as long as you’re under their spell like this you can never self actualize and become whole.
Seriously, what you need is a good therapist but no doubt your WT training has taught you to avoid them because WT know’s full well what the result will be if someone starts talking sense to you.
@outandabout, you are probably correct. But in the days of Israel there were prophets who were real pain in the butts to the ruling class. I feel a similar calling. I can see where Watchtower is headed, and I think the elders need to be told what the end result of their arrogant attitude will be. So that they can’t tell Jesus that they didn’t know they were doing the wrong thing. Jesus can say, “Didn’t Ricardo tell you?”
I understand your position Ricardo. There is no biblical right or wrong that I could see in it. As for other churches I see you stuck to ones that have similar doctrinal views as WT.
There is a biblical mistake in judging other Christians by doctrinal beliefs. Because it is similar to judging others according to the old Jewish law in Christ’s day. Christ said we condemn ourselves in that way, as we all break the law. Similarly we all have inaccurate beliefs. Those who decide their doctrinal belief allows them to be declared righteous by God, while another’s doesn’t, judge themselves. As WT does.
There is no CORRECT religion nowadays because of that. When the correct religions
were founded all members believed the same doctrines. That time has past. And WT or no other group is going to re-establish it.
Be careful with your kid. It won’t be as long as you think until he is grown.
I listened to Mark and Kimmy’s interview on the new video. Kimmy’s experience with child abuse might give her a legal cause for action against WT, based on WT’s handling of the report she made to her elders and their response. If that’s the case her getting disfellowshipped, if she does, for publically sharing her story might help her court case. I am hoping that there is no prohibition to file that type of complaint due to a statute of limitations.
I have never heard of a Jehovah’s Witness winning a lawsuit against WT because of being disfellowshipped. I believe to sue only for that reason would be a much more risking undertaking. Some time back I read Barbara Anderson sued WT because she got disfellowshipped. The story said she lost that case, and that she was ordered to pay WT attorney fees. I can’t remember how much. Maybe 130k. But I’m not sure.
Barbara Anderson also made WT’s inadequate child Protection policies publically known. She was dfd after that and from what I read for that reason.
Best wishes Mark and Kimmy.
I say we don’t talk too much about Mark’s hearing until he starts too talk about it. He might be letting WT fall deeper and deeper into a trap.
But let me say this. Mark, I never heard of anyone winning a lawsuit against WT for disfellowshipping them. I read Barbara Anderson lost such a case and was ordered to pay WT’s attorney fees.
Use the other allegation against them, if you still can. You know what I’m talking about. The one involving Kimmy’s past, if her statute of limitations has not run out.
Best wishes to you both. I hope at some time in the future you two can be sipping drinks in Hawaii at WT’s expense.
So i drink therefor i think, I have heard Elders say that being Drunk allows the Devil into you, well i drink a fair bit & enjoy it, i saw the TM video last nite & my only thought was not so much the guys buying a drink or two but whose paying for it. The thousands of Brainwashed Dubs thats who. But also these Men will get up on platforms all around the world & condemn everyone else. Remember a talk years ago at a Convention on Drinking, Know your Limit, it kinda gave free rain to getting Drunk, oh sorry my last drink put me over the edge, see ya just going to bed now, on the other hand we have elders who don’t drink & condemn those who do. MMM might send this article to one of them right now.
Just another point i would like to make & a bit more serious to, Many years ago when i was an elder i used to enjoy a Drink, i served on a committee dealing with a lot of young ones & the problem of over drinking, a few cases of people passing out etc, the case went on the involve some of the Fathers who were in position in the congregation, i recall 2 things, it took a long while to get through it & i realized how could i drink anymore in the light of this, i couldn’t do it, even if it was at home in private, so for a long time i simply stopped, the example i was making to the Congregation, people who we were dealing with & my own Family made me, as i said stop for a long time, & yes as time has passed & i am no longer involved, i do today enjoy a drink or to, TM & the others need to be exposed,
Tony Morris and the others are exposed, and they are getting more and more exposed all the time. That’s why they’re sweating in their panties and have started taking people to court.
The owners of just two conglomerates of websites that I know of are receiving in the neighborhood of 80,000 hits a month, 40,000 to each conglomerate.
Remember when we used to go to district assemblies and see those small groups of apostates holding signs that mainly preached the trinity? Those people we were not to speak to or even look at? WT could deal with that and still keep everyone ignorant to its true nature. Because WT has Jehovah’s Witnesses convinced that this is what defines apostasy, believing in the trinity or the immortality of the human soul.
What WT cannot do is refute truth, especially if enough of it is widely distributed. There is too much truth coming out that hurts WT for WT to protect itself. In the future there will be more sites like this one. WT probably foresees this, as no doubt it realizes by now Russell, and Rutherford, were wrong about their eschatology predictions. Even if WT servants don’t express that to each other I’m sure many know this.
And interestingly one of the GB in a video about the overlapping generations came really close to spilling the beans, as he discussed and stated that other things (than wars and earthquakes) would have to be seen, per Matthew 24, before the end. Christ said “this generation ” would see those “other things”. So David Slane might know that truth.
WT has positioned itself to be around for some time. And it knows the depth of this exposure to messages of truth about what it claims to be, those messages it preaches about itself, will cause WT to continue to be shown a sham. WT knows this exposure has essentially just started.
Watchtower is nailing some of its members and ex-members for causing divisions? Yet WT, from almost its inception, has preached division between its members and every other Christian.
WT couldn’t interpret the Bible if you gave it a Hebrew dictionary, a Greek dictionary, and a magnifying glass.
But back to my point. Did WT separate its members because it was “bitter” after its leaders were thrown in jail? Mentally diseased bitter were they? As a spokesman for Christ I am obligated to point out Christian apostasy that separates his church.
WT is and from at least near its inception has been apostate. You can stick your head under the sand, or you can seriously look at who you are following.
I am anointed. But I would never teach you should follow me. And that is much less of a biblically provocative statement than teaching you HAVE TO follow me to be Christian, as Watchtower teaches you, and then it nails YOU if you don’t buy into every written and apostate statement WT makes.
Am I bitter? Am I mad? Absolutely not. I am instead obligated to call apostate divisive teaching apostate and divisive. That’s the same claim WT makes. So look at the teaching seriously and YOU decide.
And while those absolutely ignorant Jehovah’s Witness can be excused, the informed might not be by Christ. IF YOU ARE READING HERE YOU ARE AT LEAST PARTIALLY INFORMED. As an informed Christian you are responsible to follow Christ. Or you can follow humans. It’s your choice, but remember that number 666 and its biblical significance.
Have you ever given any consideration to why God would write an instruction book when its very language causes different interpretations? Could it be TO SEE WHAT YOU WOULD DO WITH THAT? You might cause division, like WT, by teaching only by accepting (y)our interpretation can anybody be a Christian. You could poo poo the whole book, claiming it is unreliable. Or you could respond to that fact in the way the book claims you should which is by not starting arguments over controversial doctrines with other Christians who have different beliefs than you. LOOK THAT UP. IT’S IN THE BIBLE.
It’s time to get off your tush, learn WHAT the Bible actually teaches, and do it. Do the work and stop letting people spoon feed you. I won’t. And the ones that will, from my vantage point, lead you to follow them.
So glad to see you’re one of the anointed, messenger. I’m anointed also.
Anointed with facts about 3500 year old pork bones, either found or not found, in portions of the Middle East are you? Or, do you mean anointed with CNN spin, while salivating in expectation of the Trump tax returns? Which according to you will end the presidency of Trump.
Tell me, are those tax returns going to provide the definitive proof Trump is a racist? I thought for the liberal dem thinkers his desire to build a border wall already proved that.
Let me see. Wall, racist, wall, racist. I guess I see where those words mean the same thing. They might be synonymous, I guess.
Let me try it with tax returns. Tax returns, prejudice against Mexicans, tax returns, prejudice against Mexicans. Possibly synonymous also? Maybe? Maybe it’s a new and developing idiom I am not aware of.
I see your point Outandabout. CNN, and that atheist who provided the pork bone study, along with the evolutionary theory seem to have anointed you. Also, I remember you claiming to be having too much hedonistic fun. Is the point of life and your anointing hedonistic fun?
Since you claim to prove there is no God let’s compile your evidence:
1. Hedonistic fun.
2. Pork bone study.
3. Evolutionary theory.
4. Trump’s wall and possible tax returns. (Included because Trump believes in God, and is arguably the most powerful individual in the entire world at present)
Now here’s the tip of the iceberg that your theory and beliefs is up against. And to repeat, this is just a tip.
1. Thousands of intelligent people throughout history, who have never been diagnosed with mental illness, who claim supernatural contacts with God or angels. The most famous of these persons also is the most influential person humanity has ever known.
2. The book written about him has accurately predicted the future.
I’ll gladly stick with my anointing rather than jump the fence to your side Outandabout. And even if I didn’t accurately depict your anointing, I’ll stay with mine.
Thanks!
If “There is only ONE lawgiver and judge-the ONE who is able to save and destroy”(James 4:12) Then is that lawgiver Christ or your Governing Body? Because James states there is only ONE.
If you hold your Governing Body to be your lawgiver then belief in your position seems to contradict the second part of James 4:12, which states, “but who are you to judge your neighbor.” Both citations come from the Kingdom James.
WT claims your GB today is exclusively that “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24. It further teaches you must accept all its biblical teachings, and all its instructions. Or else you CAUSE DIVISIONS. (Thus WT will boot you out for not believing and following what it teaches.) Or it claims you are an outright apostate. And it will boot you out on that charge also.
Agreeing and living under such an assertion by your Governing Body, to me, appears as if you have accepted your GB as that JUDGE, LAWGIVER, AND SAVIOR. Am I right or wrong?
If I am wrong you can test it by delivering a signed letter to WT. And in it cc your local body of elders. In the letter state you will agree with WT teachings, as long as you feel those harmonize with scriptures; but in faithfulness to Christ, your lawgiver, you cannot, in good conscience, agree with any WT teachings you cannot find in scripture.
I’m confused, messenger. You’re slamming the GB and anybody else for claiming they’re anointed, but it’s ok for you to claim you’re anointed. What’s going on?
You are making claims about what I did you cannot back up with facts. Where did I slam everyone who claimed to be anointed by God. That never happened.
God’s anointed are chosen by him. They gladly work to serve his purpose. They choose to do that. Therefore, it’s impossible for individuals who work against God’s purpose to be his anointed.
Some JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES might be anointed. I was chosen while I was a Jehovah’s Witness. But I was only enlightened about the true meaning of many scriptures after I was chosen, not before. And I left after I knew scriptures more accurately. I didn’t just leave because of WT. My main motivation came from having a more accurate biblical understanding. And that understanding I attribute to God, because it wasn’t information that I learned from other people. And it didn’t result from another in depth study of scriptures. What happened is I understood the things I had previously studied to mean what they are really meant to mean, rather than what I was taught they mean.
The Governing Body, cannot be anointed, they cannot be chosen by God, for two reasons:
1. They don’t understand some of the most important messages stated in the Bible.
2. Their teachings and policies are detrimental to Christians.
God does not choose people to work with him that work against his purpose. It would be nonsensical to do that. God has been building his kingdom since Christ died. Once his kingdom is as he sees fit, it will change this world. We have existed since Christ died. I never said I was the only one.
Here is just one misunderstanding the GB teaches, as an example of its apostasy, and how that apostasy has effected all Jehovah’s Witnesses:
Ask any Jehovah’s Witness who Christ is referred to as being God to at Isaiah 9:6. Does that scripture claim true Christians will recognize him as their God or false Christians will recognize him as their God? Chances are somewhere in the neighborhood of the high ninety percentile of Jehovah’s Witnesses will not answer that question. Rather they will dance around it with statements like, it doesn’t say Christ is Almighty God, or he said the Father is greater than he is.
The reason why most Jehovah’s Witnesses will not answer that question is because they are taught that the people who recognize Christ as THEIR God are apostate Christians. And while the scripture clearly teaches the opposite, most Jehovah’s Witnesses would sooner take NO chance at all that they could be considered an apostate by another Jehovah’s Witness, than answer truthfully what is obvious and right in front of them. Because with a correct answer your next question might be, is Christ YOUR God? And if they say yes to that, then to a Jehovah’s Witness they are an apostate.
Messenger, I have read many of your comments here and on Beroeans.net. I have two questions, which you have probably answered elsewhere, but I have only read a fraction of your comments. My questions may be ignorant, but they aren’t attacks. Question 1 is: Isn’t jwsurvey mostly an unchristian web site, merely devoted to attacking JW’s, and with no interest in promoting Christianity? If you agree, why do you argue with nonchristians here? Why not spend all you time on Beroeans.net, where nearly every commenter considers himself a Christian? Question 2: Do you believe in the Athanasian Creed or Oneness (Jesus Only)? I don’t understand your doctrine of God. Whatever your definition of God is, you should be consistent.
experimisset
My response to #2-You state in your comment you don’t understand my beliefs, yet you tell me to “be consistent”. Who is inconsistent, me or you? Your own statement is contradictory. It is inconsistent as you say you don’t understand what I believe, but then you claim you do understand that I am inconsistent. How do you know if I am inconsistent if you don’t know what I said? Your lack of understanding doesn’t speak to my lack of consistency. Rather it speaks to your inability to understanding.
Let me ask you this. How much understanding do you have of Christ’s recorded words? If you understand, do you follow him? I suggest if you do not follow, you don’t understand, unless you are a rebel. That is a biblical belief . It does not originate from me. Understanding is ONLY given to those who follow. You can say you understand but choose not to follow. But that thought is unbiblical. You can look that up. And if you have to look that up it shows you didn’t understand what Christ said. Therefore, if that Bible thought is correct, you should not understand me, if I truly speak for Christ.
My response to #1- “Why don’t you just comment on Borean pickets?” If you feel your advice is important enough to give to me, then why don’t you follow it yourself? Again, who is inconsistent here, you or me? Appears to be you on both counts. Or is your request like that from many others here? “Please don’t teach theology here.” Is that what you think? What’s the problem, does it hurt? And if not, why do you care?
As for who Christ is. I don’t speak my beliefs about that. I speak what the Bible clearly states about that. And I KNOW EVERY CHRISTIAN TEACHER CLAIMS THE SAME THING. BUT DO THEY? Like I said in my previous comment about Isaiah 9:6 it is Christians who are stated there that will recognize Christ as their God. People who cannot see that from a one time surface reading have either been deceived (and so brainwashed). Or they are extremely ignorant, as their reading comprehension is below the level of an average adult who might also have a reading comprehension skill below average. In which case I would say they are at the lower end of what is already the low end among adults who read, but don’t understand.
He shall be “called Mighty God”. The name Christ is given there is “God”. The adjective like noun(noun because it’s part of the name) that comes before that primary name “God” is rather irrelevant isn’t it? That is irrelevant in that it does not remove the name God from being attached to the subject that is considered in the text. And that subject is Christ.The context of that statement clearly speaks to his followers calling Christ God, not his enemies. So I don’t argue such points because, putting aside a really ignorant person I might encounter, I know the average adult who cannot see that upon a surface reading has been deceived. And Christ might overlook their ignorance if they have been deceived if they still follow him according to their limited knowledge.
As for following some creed. Why would follow some creed when I am taught by God?
exprimisset,
I haven’t read from Borean Pickets lately as the last article I began to look at was so long I chose not to take the time necessary to fully consider it. (As a side point I remember an old but now defunct commenter here that chastised me because I stated I don’t read all of the really lengthy comments here. That was a totally funny comment to me, as it essentially was a demand that I must read lengthy comments.)
But as I have read quite a lot on Borean pickets I do not remember ever seeing your pseudonym used by any commenter on that site. Do you comment there? And if so, why not use the same pseudonym both here and there, so we know who you are.
The only reason I ask is because there is a commenter that addressed me there who claimed he or she does not read from this site as he feels the dialog on this site is spiritually unhealthy. And that commenter was questioning me as to why I comment here, and why I even mention this website on that one, suggesting I should not. Is that person you? Also, if it is not you, do you not comment on the other site because you have no desire to engage in dialog with Christians? If that’s the case I find it interesting you go over there and read their thoughts. It sounds like Nicodemus coming to Jesus a night, because he did not want to be discovered by people who knew him and had different beliefs. Or it could be that you sneak over here from that other site, but don’t want to be discovered by those other commenters. If so, you should know Eric will not censor you there for commenting here. Neither will Lloyd censor you here for commenting there. But what might happen to you is what you just did to me. Other commenters here or there might feel you are doing something improper, and might tell you about it.
My suggestion is don’t be a wimp. If you are Christian God cannot use a scared person who is too petrified to move. If you are not a Christian, perhaps you will become one, as you must be investigating but for some reason , fear or another, you fail to engage in Christian dialogue.
Since you ask my belief about Christ and his relationship to his followers here is the biblical response. It is not my belief, it is a Bible belief. I didn’t make it up.
First consider Watchtower taught you not to acknowledge Christ as your God. And because of showing you certain scriptures it taught you accepted that. Most of those scriptures have to do with the relationship between Christ and his Father. By accepting Watchtower’s teaching you didn’t stop to consider an important truth. That truth is that the relationship between those two to EACH OTHER, not to you, has nothing to do with your relationship to either one of them, as you are commanded to have your relationship with them through scriptures in the Bible.Your relationship with them, as stated in scripture, should be what is stated in scripture.
The Bible calls Both the Father and Son God in numerous scriptures. So, it is either the purpose of the Bible that God’s followers accept Christ as THEIR GOD, or that apostates accept him as their God. There is not the context surrounding a single scripture that addresses Christ as God that even hints that it is apostates that look to him as THEIR GOD. And you know that.
Furthermore, aside from accepting Christ the individual as God, what qualifications is God thought to have when that term is used? Creator, all creation being created by him and FOR him. (Colossians )Holding all creation together through his power. (Colossians) Christ is said to have that relationship to all creation. It belongs to him. Things were created for him.
And as a type of being Christ possesses the exact nature and characteristics of his Father. And the Father tells you to honor the Son JUST AS you honor the Father. So, do you not honor the Son as God, when the Bible calls him God, and the Father called him God, and the Father tells you to honor him as you honor the Father? Are you still afraid of the WT teaching that you will be declared an apostate for doing that, or that maybe your friends on Borean Pickets might belittle you?
Messenger, I am sorry you had to spend so much time in your response. I only have time for a brief one. I am not the person who criticized you on Beroean Pickets. I seldom comment. One reason is that I can’t keep up with their articles, so my comments sometimes don’t make much sense. Also, I do not agree with many things on that web site. God has not inspired me to argue about those points. I didn’t really say that you were being inconsistent, as if I had caught you in a contradiction. I meant that you probably were inconsistent like almost everybody else in their theology of God. For example you say that we learn from the passage in Isaiah that Jesus is God. But numerous passages in the Christian Scriptures say that God raised Jesus from the dead. They don’t say that God the Father raised God the Son. Nor do they say that Jesus raised himself. And Jesus is said to be at the right hand of God, which is impossible if he were God. Yet it would be imaginable for God the Son to sit at the right hand of God the Father. But the Scripture doesn’t say that.
experimisset,
Got your point. I don’t agree with everything that is stated on Borean Picket either. And I don’t write corrections to argue, but just to correct thoughts for readers and commenters. Most of the things that I don’t agree with there I just don’t comment about, because it is unnecessary. There is no scripture that teaches Christians acceptable to Christ MUST believe the same things about every Bible scripture. The Bible actually says the opposite.
I don’t spend as much time as you might think because I don’t research like many of those guys on Borean Pickets do to comment. And I don’t spend a lot of time editing. I just start with a word usually and jot down the ideas I already know. Like we all do in conversations.
The fact is Isaiah does say Jesus is God. It’s not that I say it. It’s what’s in print. And Christ did say he would raise himself from the dead. “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” John 2:19
Your claim does not show contradictions in my theology. Because the inconsistency would be in the Bible. If the Bible did not want you to recognize Jesus as YOUR GOD, and yet it frequently calls him God, along with the titles King of Kings and Lord of Lords, there would be an inconsistency. But there is not. There are just a false interpretations by some.
As for Christ sitting at the right hand of God. That shows no inconsistency in Bible teachings. As I said before Christ’s position to his Father has absolutely nothing to do with what his position should be before you, as outlined in scripture. Because the word God as it is used over and over again in the Bible refers ONLY to what people accept as their God. And that varies in scriptures. If the Bible did not want you to accept Christ as your God it would not have named him God in any scripture.
Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny the position the Bible teaches Christians should hold Christ in come very close, or might even have actually crossed the line in becoming antichrists. An antichrist denies the position the scriptures demand mankind hold Christ in.
I know those folks on Borean Pickets can be testy. But feel free to comment anyway. The site is owned by Eric, and I had a row with him shortly after I came there. But not now and not for some time. And he never censored my comments. If you disagree with some of the teaching here or there it’s okay. And it’s nice to have you here.
Look, I am very direct. Don’t feel I take offense at your comments because I don’t.
Take care
How do you know you’re anointed, messenger? By what authority have you been anointed and where’s the proof. If you have the right to claim you’re anointed, so have the GB because apparently, no proof is required.
You might cover the same topics over and over believing you have a new audience to share those with. I don’t know. But whatever your motivations are, this is the last time I will cover this topic with you. Everything I say now has been shared with you many times before. To reiterate it won’t be again.
First it is not my purpose or desire to convince you of anything I say. I am God’s messenger. I only repeat his messages, for your benefit or for your detriment. Christ is the judge and has placed you here to respond to his message any way you choose to for his purpose, not for yours or mine.
You approach Christians as if we are obligated to prove something to you. We aren’t nor should we feel compelled to do so. Prove to yourself what you want to believe. So far, you have furnished absolutely no proof on this site to support your position that God is nonexistent. Yet in ignorance you might believe you have. Because you surely comment as boldly as you have.
The proof that I am anointed was provided to me. For what reason in heaven or on Earth should you believe God needs to or that he should feel obligated to provide that proof about me to you, an atheist and blasphemer against God;and a blasphemer against all of the other people who are anointed of God?
With regard to your question about WT I answered that yesterday, ON THIS SITE.
Please don’t try to defend yourself by putting forth some false statements that messenger must be upset. Remember how a couple years ago Dee2 used to ask the same question in every comment? You are getting close to that type of redundancy. And I’ve no desire to entertain you in it.
Outandabout,
I suggest you google and then read the article entitled Village Atheists, Village Idiots by Sam Kriss. In it he discusses how many of the world’s most famous atheist such as Richard Dawkins have become deranged lunatics. And he considers whether their deranged minds have anything to do with their banal outcries “There is no God, ” along with attaching that cry to a belief the idea they have is some grand and important discovery. Since that sounds like you, I thought you should read about those lunatics.
It sounds like the Bible claim at Romans 1:28.
so anybody can wake up in the morning and declare themselves a knight of the realm. I thought there was a ceremony for that.
So whats the next step, messenger…..you go from being a normal human being to waking up one day as one of gods little helpers, akin to being one of santa’s elves. Until one day you wake up another day in the future and take it a step further and suddenly you’re Jesus? You have a toe over the line and there’s nothing to stop you doing that now. You’re away laughing.
Corinthians 1:21-22 says all a person has to do to be classed as anointed is to be a Christian.
That depends on who is classifying the person as a Christian. If the person classifies himself, or if a human organization classifies him Christian it doesn’t mean he is anointed. If it is Christ who is considering the person is a part of his church- if that’s what you mean as classed Christian- then you are correct. But Christ stated many who feel they are Christian are not members of his church. Therefore they are not anointed.
Furthermore, although according to Revelation preaching and conversions will take place during the Great Tribulation period. Some of those conversions will come from people who now consider they a real Christians but are not recognized by Christ as being part of his church.There are too many scriptures that nullify your statement if no limits are attached to it. “Many are called, but few chosen.”
In biblical accounts often miracles occurred when people were chosen (anointed). That provided a definitive proof of anointing, because the action came from God, not a single human or human organization. There is no Bible scripture that states the same thing does not happen today. There are no scriptures claiming it no longer happens because it does happen today. Your lack of belief in that, or someone else’s lack of belief in that does not stop God from doing whatever he chooses to do. God has always dealt with people one on one. He has always anointed people providing that type of proof through miracles.
The definition of a christian is a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity and Corinthians says being a Christian means one is anointed.
So you’re saying that nobody is a Christian unless a miracle has been performed? That must mean there are very few Christians in the world or miracles are being performed left right and center…… like all those abused JW children being saved or the starving ones in Africa being fed. So glad He has his priority’s right.
You may have heard before, but gods 100% don’t actually exist.
‘he has always anointed people providing that proof through miracles’. Your words, messenger.
MARK AND KIMMY,
A few months back I read an article on the Zalkin Law firm website, in San Diego, CA. I don’t know if the article is still up. It stated that New York state passed a new law allowing grown child abuse victims whose statute of limitations had run out, prohibiting the filing of a lawsuit, would be allowed to file a case if they acted upon the new law quickly enough. I can’t remember the window of time that was given. It could have been one year from whatever date the law took effect. But, like I said, I don’t remember the window that is attached to that law.
It possibly will be worth Kimmy checking into it as WT’S headquarters is located in New York state. If you do look into it I suggest doing so right away, as I do remember there was definitely a time limit set for filing that type case.