If you happen to be studying the bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses, you would be forgiven for assuming that your opinion counts for something, that you are free to scrutinize everything you are taught, and that no questions are considered off-limits.
This was exactly what Rochelle Sevier understood to be the case when she agreed to study the bible with a Witness lady from her local congregation in Salem, Massachusetts – home of the infamous witch trials of the late 17th Century.
Rochelle wasn’t a total stranger to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Born Jewish, her mother had started studying with the Witnesses when she was only five. “My mother would take my sister and I along with her to the meetings. I even attended an International Convention as a child,” she recalls.
But Rochelle lost interest and stopped attending meetings by the time she entered her teens. She credits her mother for not forcing the religion on her when she could see it wasn’t for her. This allowed her to explore her spirituality, including her Jewish roots.
“As an adult, I begin searching for some meaning to life. I attended weekly Torah studies, along with other Jewish co-workers, taught by an Orthodox Rabbi. After several years I went to several Jewish temples to embrace my heritage. Unfortunately, I did not feel fulfilled after attending these temples.”
Rochelle’s spiritual journey brought her back to the Witnesses in 2011. By this point her father, who had previously resisted involvement with the religion, had been studying for a few years. She decided to attend her first meeting as an adult and was soon overwhelmed by the affection and interest she received.
Rochelle agreed to a bible study with the wife of the Coordinator of the body of elders. Together they studied the book What Does the Bible Really Teach?
“Due to my zeal, I was having two bible studies each week, along with attending meeting, assemblies, and conventions,” she explains. “Along the way I would meet other sisters in the congregation who would sit in on my studies. I became the ‘ideal bible student’ due to my inquisitive nature and my knowledge of the material being studied.”
Despite making progress, Rochelle’s “inquisitive nature” gradually surfaced, and she made occasional forays online to see what objective information she could find on the Witnesses.
This made her feel guilty to begin with, but she took her studies seriously and wanted to know if this was really ‘the truth’. “Every now and again I would come across a story that would make me think, particularly Barbara Anderson’s life story. I would put this information in the back of my mind.”
Questions lead to a scolding
Despite her early willingness to bury her doubts, by around the time of January 2014 Rochelle was resolved to do more digging, and go wherever the evidence took her no matter how uncomfortable.
“I came across a plethora of information that challenged the image the Watchtower was portraying. The first story I came across was how the Watchtower became an NGO member of the United Nations, the ‘wild beast’. Then I read the stories about how Watchtower was protecting pedophiles and allowing pedophiles to roam freely because of the two-witness rule.”
Disturbed by the information she was uncovering, Rochelle decided to do what any normal student of Jehovah’s Witnesses would do… she asked her teacher about it. But this didn’t turn out quite how she expected.
“My teacher would not address my questions. Her reaction was one of anger and disdain. She treated me like I had been caught with my hand in the cookie jar.”
But rather than convince her she had done something wrong, her teacher’s reaction only made Rochelle more resolved to uncover the real truth. With her mentor stubbornly refusing to give her the answers she craved, she returned to the internet and continued to be appalled by what she was uncovering.
Ending the study
It was around this time that Rochelle’s father was preparing for his baptism, and she couldn’t help but share her discoveries with her parents in the hopes of averting what she now realized was a terrible decision.
“I was hoping that I could wake them up and stop my father’s baptism, especially after I learned that they changed the baptism questions. I realized my father wasn’t getting baptized in the name of Jesus, the holy spirit, and God, but in the name of an organization.”
To her dismay, the baptism went ahead anyway. Rochelle decided not to attend, but her father later told her that he had approached one of the local elders during the event about her issues, asking if he could arrange to meet with her. “The elder said he needed to speak with the other elders first and he would get back to my father. The following day he told my father he couldn’t speak to me but didn’t give a reason why.”
Amid such indifference to her genuine concerns, Rochelle terminated her bible study. She also stopped attending meetings. But it wasn’t long before her former mentor began trying to make inroads again.
“Over the course of time, my teacher would text me or send cards telling me she was thinking of me. I initially did not know if or how I should respond to her because I was angry and hurt at the way she had brushed off my questions. I finally told her how I felt, and she said she never meant to hurt me but had to protect her relationship with Jehovah, and this was the reason why she could not address my questions.”
The forbidden text message
More time passed until only recently, when Rochelle learned about Watchtower’s moves to make congregations commit to pledging a monthly donation amount. Appalled at this development, Rochelle felt compelled to send her friend a text message, which read as follows…
“First I want to say I have great love for you and the others in the congregation. I truly care about them. What I am about to say to you is out of love from my heart. I heard about the new donation arrangement that Watchtower has and think it is not right that they are now asking the flock to commit to a set monthly donation. Watchtower is no better than any other religion now. Rutherford was right when he said religion is a snare and a racket. I hope this wakes people up and they realize that they are being fleeced. Btw the elders need to stop lying to the [flock]. The donation letter was four pages long but the elders were instructed to only read the first page. I have a copy of the whole letter because an elder leaked it out.”
Rochelle could not have anticipated what would ensue from sending this message.
Days later, Rochelle’s instinct told her to phone in to her local meeting and listen to the program. Her ears pricked when it was hinted that there would be a special talk in the service meeting that the congregation had to listen to. Once this talk began, Rochelle soon realized that it was about her. She was being singled out and accused of apostasy, even though she wasn’t baptized as a Witness!
A recording of the talk is available below…
Highlights from a 21st Century ‘Salem Witch Trial’
“Some that study God’s word… have fallen prey to apostasy, so we want the congregation to be aware of that.”
The speaker’s introduction is slightly confusing, suggesting that he might be referring to several individuals rather than one.
“Some friends who are not of our sort have been contacting at times, and they contact some of the friends with information that’s negative regarding the Governing Body, even accusing the local body of elders of lying to the congregation.”
Given Rochelle’s text message only days earlier, it is by this point obvious that this talk is about her – even though the speaker curiously insists on referring to her as “some friends.”
The speaker, who happens to be the Secretary of the Salem congregation, goes on to paint Rochelle as someone who has set out to gather contact details for sinister motives.
“But sometimes some that have associated with us for a while, and we get to know them a little bit… get cellphone numbers and email addresses. Someone calls you on the phone, you have their number. You email someone ‘Oh I’ll email you this’ and bang, you have their email address. So we want you to be careful if, and that’s ‘if’, you were to be contacted with any information that’s apostate… and to avoid that.”
The speaker ignores the fact that it is perfectly normal for Witnesses to communicate with their bible students by text message.
Those guilty of “apostate thinking” are then ridiculed as subversive and questioning of “Jehovah’s channel of dispensing the truth” – prone to the evil of “debating.”
“We don’t debate the truth, certainly not with apostates!”
In making this remark (indeed, throughout his talk) the speaker forgets that Rochelle is only an unbaptized bible student and therefore incapable of meeting the definition of an “apostate.”
As this site has already discussed, “apostasy” refers to the act of leaving one’s religion, and you cannot leave a religion if you haven’t joined it in the first place. Rochelle wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. She hadn’t even started preaching yet. Her only crime was to ask the wrong questions, but the speaker apparently fails to see it quite that way.
“And, when you think about it friends, it’s a lot different from answering a question, someone who’s honest-hearted and looking for the truth, yearning for answers. That’s different. But we should never engage in conversation with someone with apostate thinking. And that’s either, y’know, in person, text messaging, emailing, any other types of sites going back and forth thinking that we have to help this individual. That’s not their design. Their goal is not to learn the truth, their goal is to subvert our faith. That’s their goal. So we don’t want to mistakenly think that we’re there to help someone. It doesn’t happen. They can’t be helped. We want to safeguard ourselves.”
The speaker thus rushes to question Rochelle’s motives. In his mind, she could not have been honest-hearted and yearning for truth. If she was asking about the UN affiliation or the two-witness rule she HAD to be focused on subverting her teacher’s faith, even though she was only going through the Bible Teach book.
“At times we may wonder ‘How can someone who’s studying the bible with us, even attending some of the meetings, how can they succumb to apostate thinking? Now, we have to remember such ones really never allowed themselves to become grounded, or as the scriptures say ‘stable in the faith’. They never really developed a relationship with Jehovah God, love for his word. Most of the time it’s very poor study habits, probably not even preparing for their studies… coming to meetings hit or miss, never getting that relationship with Jehovah God. And so what ends up happening is they open themselves up to the devil, and problems such that then begin to rise.”
The speaker’s scathing characterization of Rochelle’s study habits conflicts with her own account of being a student who studied twice weekly and regularly attended meetings, but it is all too convenient for the speaker to dismiss her so-called “apostasy” by blaming it on her being a poor student.
Of further curiosity is the speaker’s rather naive and blinkered description of the studying process itself. In his view, students simply cannot be indoctrinated and brought under undue influence through one-sided Watchtower propaganda. Rather, through information they become “grounded” and more “stable in the faith.”
The speaker also makes the common mistake among Watchtower apologists of equating Jehovah God with the Watch Tower Society, so that “Jehovah” and the “organization” are referred to interchangeably.
If Rochelle doesn’t embrace the history and policies of Watchtower, then by default she is deemed to be spurning a “relationship with Jehovah God.” If she doesn’t accept every word her mentor is teaching her without question, then she must be opening herself up to the devil.
Indeed, the speaker admits that his talk is based extensively on the notorious “Human Apostates” talk of the 2013 district convention – itself a tour de force in name-calling and ad hominem. But he gives his own twist on Watchtower’s “table of demons” rant by likening Rochelle’s antics to that of a wife on a TV crime series who poisoned several husbands by mixing anti-freeze with gatorade.
That a mature adult could stoop to such wild exaggerations can be explained only by the fact that he is both a recipient and dispenser, not of poisoned gatorade as such, but of Watchtower’s extremely potent koolaid. Reason and logic go out the window when there is an enemy or questioner of “Jehovah’s organization” to be vanquished.
An unnecessary warning
The speaker finally concludes by reading Psalm 26:4, and using this verse to remind his congregation not to associate with apostates. Rochelle, who is still not technically a Witness, is thus effectively “marked” – a lesser form of shunning used by elders whenever Witnesses show “a flagrant disregard for theocratic order though not practicing a grave sin that would result in judicial action” (according to page 124 of the elders’ 2010 “Shepherd Book” manual).
Rochelle says that, fortunately, so few know about her text message that many in the Salem congregation will be oblivious to the fact that the talk was directed at her. Her own mother refuses to accept that she was the object of the speaker’s diatribe.
If the talk was indeed a marking (or “warning”) talk, this only underlines how unnecessary and overly-reactionary it was. As the Shepherd Book itself says under the section on marking: “If the disorderly conduct is generally unknown to others and poses no threat to their spiritual well-being, usually it is best to handle things through admonition and counsel. The elders should not be hasty in giving a warning talk.”
In Rochelle’s case, no “admonition” was offered. No effort was made to help her address her questions, even after prompting from her father. The moment she showed she knew too much, her elders went straight into panic mode.
A lucky escape
To Rochelle’s credit, though shaken by this experience, when I spoke to her on the phone last night she seemed to be taking it all in her stride. Having completed a lucky escape from the grips of a high-control cult, her thoughts are now turning to her parents and her understandable concern for their predicament.
They have sadly been hoodwinked by an organization that is infatuated with itself and ruthlessly crushes any attempts at independent thinking or honest inquiry.
If you happen to be thinking about having a bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Rochelle would like you to consider her story. Any organization that claims it has the one and only “truth” should welcome the closest possible scrutiny of its teachings and practices if it wishes to be taken seriously.
But in the case of Watchtower, asking the wrong questions or investigating too thoroughly can land you in hot water. You could well end up being condemned from the platform as a poisonous “apostate” before you have even joined.
An article on this story for German speakers is available on this link
What a song:-)
EIGHT little Governing Body Members hoping to get to Heaven.
One had a Heart Attack and then there were SEVEN.
SEVEN little Governing Body Members involved in a Tithing Fix.
One went and Hanged Himself and then there were SIX. (T.B.A.)
Lol;-)
They know that her points can be proved with facts and of course that is dangerous for them.
I hope more people do their study before joining the JW or any other cult.
I love “what will happen to apostates” last comment. It’s so typical of a fully demented JW. If they cant beat you with their twisted logic they revert to what they know best, Fear! And that normally involves them pronouncing death and destruction for you. Makes me laugh.
I am ashamed to admit that I was a witness for over 40 years, an elder for 25 years. In all those years I never once heard it said that someone had left the “truth” because they discovered that it was not true. It was always because of some fault of their own character. Either selfish desires, a wicked heart, poor study habits, anything except the real reason that most of us have left, which is we grew tired of the lies, dissapointments, and Judgemental hypocrisy. I am so glad to be out! I love my new life.
@What will happen to the apostates : You said
the lake that BURNS with fire and sulfur. This means the second DEATH.
So do you believe in the hellfire ?
Did a G.B. member really hang himself? Did I miss something?
@Micha-el, if I hear one GB member hanging himself in near future I’ll start freaking out … :-)
Thanks for this story Cedars,
It was interesting to see that Rochelle’s mother refused to accept the talk was about her. Thankfully she is not being shunned by her parents.
I can relate to her story as I am a Jew and had an insatiable desire to learn all I could about the Bible God and Jesus, when I studies I had lots of questions that could not be answered. Sadly the love bombing got me, but we are free now.
Kate xx
What will happen to the Apostates – Okay I have some food for thought if you will open up the bible and read it. Abraham question God, about his decision to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, even getting down to 5 righteous men. Moses, question God’s decision to destroy the nation of Israel and make a nation from him. Apparently from scripture when God determine Moses was not going to make it into the promise land, he kept asking Jehovah to change his mind about this decision because Jehovah had to tell Moses at one point this is enough to not ask about it anymore. final nail in the coffin, before becoming a JW the first thing a person will be told is it is good to questions one’s religious belief(Apostate thinking). Then things will be said against that ones religion such as the Catholic and the pedophile cases. The greediness of the religious leaders and so on and so forth. A person is supposed to think critically until they become a JW and then stop thinking. Jehovah nor his Son Jesus requested blind faith. As a matter of fact the scripture says “keep testing” the expressions. So those who fallen man teachings even when not correct will as scripture clearly stands be accountable for their own actions.
I am dismayed but not surprised at all at what happened to Rochelle. In times past, this treatment of unbaptised people was de rigeur.
While I was still an active witness some years ago, I remember meeting a girl who was an unbaptised study, but had gotten involved in some conduct that would be considered wrong by witness standards. When she turned up at the meeting, she was shunned (quite to her surprise!).
Until only recently, unbaptised minors that reached the age of majority and that decided not to become witnesses were treated as disfellowshipped. A girl in one family that I know of, although unbaptised, was shunned by her family for YEARS, until the Watchtower came out with a “new understanding” that it was now ok to talk to her. Happily, she has a speaking relationship with her family now, but is still understandable hurt and bewildered as to why she was shunned in the first place.
And, of course, if you “did the dunk,” even at the tender age of ten, you WILL be shunned, no matter what, if you decide at the age of fifteen to not be a witness.
The part that is new here (ok, maybe not so new) is the absolute TERROR and PANIC throughout from the elder and his wife when confronted with questions that they cannot answer! And remember, that is what it is folks…absolute heart pounding terror for witnesses when their whole world view is challenged. No matter what the source of that challenge or how innocent, pure, reasonable, or innocuous it is, to them, it is from SATAN himself!!!
Is ‘What will happen to Apostates?’ now in a panic? He has answered no questions (because he cannot – there is no credible defence of JWdom).
Good job for him that every Gov. Bod. pronouncement is utter nonsense. He has defied their divinely sanctioned edicts and engaged with apostates on the internet.
As Armageddon is a perverse fiction, he will not suffer its consequences, now he has ignored Jehovah’s (aka the JW God;s )orders.
I meant, defied Jehovah’s (aka the JW Gov. Bod’s) orders
Keep on Asking God for Direction and it will be given You,
Keep on Seeking God’s face and You will find Him,
Keep on Knocking on Heavens Door and it will opened to you.
Why?
Because by God’s good Grace, Everyone Asking receives, Everyone Seeking finds and to Everyone Knocking, eventually has the door will be opened and All their Questions answered Truthfully.
– Apocraphal Saying.
L
If you want to understand where the Organization gets their disfellowshiping guidance from, read John chapter 9. It is straight from the Pharisee playbook. That chapter recounts the experience of the blind man healed by Jesus and subsequently questioned by the Pharisees. The Pharisees even question the blind man’s parents, who were scared to answer because they knew they would get expelled from the synagogue (or disfellowshiped) for telling the truth. Ultimately, the Pharisees threw the blind man out of the synagogue for telling the truth.
For me, it is difficult to understand how JWs can’t see the striking similarities between the organization and the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.
That is why after more than 22 years a a full fledged JW I had to leave. It was becoming more and more pharisaical all the time. Rules, rules and more rules and every thought and question is monitored? You are guilty until proven innocent. They have become what they formerly claimed they detested. If you are a current JW or a former JW you know I am speaking the truth. They tell you how to dress, how to think, what movies to watch, control your social life, what to eat, what medical procedures are ok, how to raise your children, what sports are acceptable,
What education is acceptable, how to treat your family, the list never ends. It is a self destroying system that takes any God given free will away from us. Of course you MUST believe whatever they say, whenever they say it.
There is no open forum or freedom of thought. It is not allowed.
Hey ‘what will happen to the apostates?’ What do you REALLY think about that choleric Hebrew god of war slaughtering ‘sad little men’ in Slavic countries? You sound like you approve, and even invoke that mass-murder orgy…. but I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. Would you elaborate on this……..?
I imagine that ‘What will happen to Apostates’ will go the way of all believing JWs who defy their ‘divinely appointed’ bosses and engage with ex JWs on the internet.
They all disappear. Whether they slink back to their Kingdom Halls desperately trying to convince themselves that JW TRUTH is true, is impossible to say.
Their TMS and Bethel training has equipped them to prey on the lost, the lonely and the vulnerable, whereby, once in 40 years of door knocking (or, latterly, hanging about on the street with a mag. stall) they manage to ensnare and recruit another WT mag. pusher.
Faced with those of us who know the JW cult and its ways, they are powerless, and their puffed up pride in belonging to God’s only earthly outfit is mocked as it deserves.
At least he’s done his bit for the ex JW cause and shown to everyone the pathetic emptiness and essential cruelty and ridiculousness one of the most obnoxious groups ever thrown up by Christendom.
@GB=evil slave
Right on!
I believe Ray Franz, in one of his books, used the comparison of the pharisees in John 9 with the modern day practice of disfellowshipping, too. I believe he also contrasted this with the way the father wholeheartedly welcomed back his prodigal son, without benefit of a letter to the elders, a committee reinstatement meeting, or a humiliating six months to a year of suffering in silence at the back of the kingdom hall.
I think Franz also related an experience where a young couple, though having only studied for a time, were effectively disfellowshipped. In the words of an elder, “if you attend ONE meeting, you can be df’ed.”
(Don’t quote me…I’m going from memory only)
Sometimes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. However, the apostasy paranoia (or shall I dare say, justified fear because of the internet?) has heightened to the extreme.
Every time I think this group cannot possibly get more out there they prove me wrong. The UN NGO was a huge eye opener for me, because I joined the JWs in the late 80’s mostly because of their political neutrality. I never knew about the JW NGO agreement until I found this site. Thank you so much Cedars for providing this information.
I was intrigued by the comment on the baptism questions and declaration and googled them. I found the following:
“8. What responsibility rests upon a person who is infected with a communicable disease that is potentially fatal?
9. To avoid transmitting an infection or a potentially fatal disease to others, why should an infected person (a) not initiate public displays of affection such as hugging and kissing? (b) attend the Congregation Book Study at the Kingdom Hall if at all possible? (c) not react negatively when some choose not to invite him into their homes? (d) Why should a person who may have been exposed to an infectious disease voluntarily choose to have a blood test before beginning a courship? (e) Why should one having a communicable disease inform the presiding overseer before getting baptized?”
Woah. Wait a minute folks. This is thoroughly screwed up. We all know that the elephant in the ‘communicable disease’ room is AIDS. You are telling me that HIV positive publishers are required to inform the elders of their condition, and that they can expect to be banned from homes and never get a hug again? This is just appalling.
3 questions later is this jewel:
“12. What Christian quality should outstandingly characterize our relationship with our spiritual brothers and sisters?”
The irony. It burns.
Congratulations, Rochelle! You dodged a heck of a bullet there. And thank you, Cedars, for your commitment to truth. I really appreciate this blog.
I remember when the internet was becoming popular. WT articles kept on bashing it as a tool of the devil. Sure enough, with time it was downplayed until recently when they went full ahead with JW website….
Somewhere at the WT offices, someone is saying “I told you this was going to happen!!!”
It’s definitely ramping up of late.
@gary – that was my thought exactly. JWs are getting more paranoid as each day goes by. If we ALLOW them to start trashing people who are just studies now, where is it going to end? We know we cannot force them to change, because you can’t change an abuser. But if people make enough noise over the ridiculous things they are doing, not the WT itself, but individual congs may tone down the rhetoric.
Oops, that remark was directed at Rowland Nelken’s question.
If you are such a good witness, what are you doing on this site anyway?
To Nancy Pea: Freedom of speech is not absolute; slander and libel are illegal and actionable, and with good reason. If a person says you’re a child rapist, don’t you think you should be able to stop them from saying that? If what someone else says about you is false and causes tremendous harm to you personally or professionally, then it’s not trivial. These types of lawsuits can also make them think twice about how dogmatic they are when it comes to demanding their members shun family, even “young ones,” and that can do a lot of good.
Good point StarTrekAngel
I knew this was a Sick idea setting up our own website JW.org. I just knew that someday it was going to come back on us and bite us ALL in the arse!
Just awaiting any new GB member, Bart Simpson perhaps, to come back say its NOT his fault!
“What Will Happen to the Apostates?” is obviously not that faithful to the Governing Body’s teachings and directives considering he is on this site. His spelling and grammatical skills are atypical of the average JW rants I’ve come across online, but the ad hominem attacks are very typical. I’m thinking a high-ranking Watchtower official? A bethelite? A pioneer, maybe? Perhaps a Watchtower and Awake! magazine writer?
Good point, JWIntellect. Perhaps his whole persona and sense of identiy and self worth depend on keeping up the impossible pretence that he truly believes in the truthfully in the truthfulness of JW TRUTH.
‘What will happen…..’ must be in a desperate turmoil. He has deifed his bosses by coming on here and by declaring a belief in Hellfire. So, by ‘Jehovah’s (aka wt Gov. Bod’s) lights he is already damned, guilty of a cpaital crime and due for execution at Jehovah’s next (real this time) Armageddon.
He would feel alot more relaxed, and could definitely put his command of grammar spelling to better use if he acknowledges to himself that JW TRUTH is a shedload of cruel and ever changing bullshit, and heads for the Kingdom Hall exit.
Are you still following this thread, ‘WHat….APostate’? Best wishes, anyway – Here’s to your escape and subsequent peace of mind.
That is so true, unfortunately. Better not enter in their game. In fact, they see us, free minders, as the “living proofs” of their spiritual failures. I did return, one day, to the congregation where I grew up, with the best feelings because my mother is one of them and that I still respect the Jehovah’s witnesses as human beings and former friends. They tried to seduce me as they always do, telling how the life will be easier with them, but it’s all a trap. Indeed I never see so much hate and will to destruction in someone’s eyes than in theirs that day when I said to them that I was free. I really felt that if they could, they would have killed me! As they can’t legally do it, they “kill” the free minders by the way your article describes so well. Thanks to Rochelle for sharing her story. Sorry for my poor English. Above all, thanks for your work to refuse that deep injustice and to help to be free. Blessing from France.
this experience show another time how narrow minded the JWs are. They fear the truth and they live the lie and they like it.
So no wonder as they are all Elis, they all will fell from the chair and break their neck
I went through the same as this lady. And started to dig deep into Watchtower history.
This group are WOLFS in Sheeps clothing preaching another Jesus.
U Slavenskim zemljama ima holjade JW sta sa njima . Gdje ih ubrojiti u americki kult ?
love that song by the Police wrapped around your finger:-)
Never be owned. X
Reply to dino m
I could not have put it better myself!
By the by, what language was that you were using there Bro. respect.
Lucky heather?
“What will Happen to apostates” Where is your evidence that the WT is divinely appointed?….. Cedars backs his posts and articles up with sold researchable evidence… Where is yours… If you can prove to us that the GB IS the FDS and that the WT is divinely appointed… and that JW’s have the truth then we will accept it… As Christopher Hitchens said “Exceptional Claims Require Exceptional evidence” The burden of proof my friend is with you and your religion to prove what you say is true.. If there is no proof.. It is not true…. How about this:
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
But what makes me laugh most of all is that your posts about Cedars prove another of Hitchens points:
“We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instils morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Perhaps this is why the WT doesnt want any JW’s to debate with us as time and time again you prove the above point…
The more folks distance themselves from the Watchtower society the better off they will be.
There is no winning a argument with these folks when they are trained to only be one minded with only spewing out marketing propaganda of their own material.
They are not bible students for if they were they would have left this organization long time ago.
The Bible explicitly tells us to keep testing our faith as to whether it is right or wrong. God gives us instruction and the right to do so and if this organization tells us otherwise then guess what?
They are the ones that are in violation of Gods word and commands.
They are going above God and elevating themselves above him and we all know to well what happens to people and nations based on the accounts of the bible when this is done.
They add and subtract, twist and turn the meanings of the scriptures to purely suit their needs.
And what are their needs?
To retain and recruit as many adherents as possible.
Why? For MONEY!
So its with no surprise that they will go to any length to rid themselves of independent thinkers who are asking valid questions based on proper research, real truth and understanding.
They are so blinded themselves that they follow a course of action that is totally unscriptural in nature.
Woe to you Governing Body and its Adherents who ferment the word, Your day will come soon!!
No one is a true Apostate unless they disagree with the word of the apostles as taught in the first century.
Not a organization that is aprox. 130 years old.
Its so fundamental a fifth grader could understand it!!
If these folks would just focus and center their life on Jesus words at John 14:6 then perhaps they would really realize where the “Real Truth” Exists!
P.S. I was going through some papers to burn just 2 days ago(Yes in North Carolina its legal to burn) I found the same book mentioned in the story and I happily tossed this poison into the fire. My feelings were of elation to say the least.
Oh by the way John Cedars way to go in replying back to
” What Will Happen to the Apostates? says:”
Keep it coming John for you back everything up with pure evidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus Christ…you know…the founder of Christianity, and the one whose example you SHOULD be following, didn’t find it hard to refute incorrect beliefs.
Why do YOU find it hard?
Perhaps because you cannot refute what is said, because YOU do not have real truth?
My previous comment was in reply to
“What will happen to the apostates?”
You refer to “disaffected former members” as”unable to live by the standards of worthiness of the organization”. I was a witness and elder for many years, and I shared your sentiments. I never stopped to consider the possibility that maybe they left because they opened their eyes to what was really true. Perhaps they decided not to let an organization take the place of God. Perhaps they grew tired of the disappointments and failed prophecys of the “organization”. Perhaps they decided that it is not a good idea to let other men make personal life decisions for them. You do yourself a great disservice by believing that all ex-witnesses are somehow morally deficient, because its just not true. I am a more honest and happy person now than I ever was in my 40 years of witness life, because I now speak truth from my heart instead of witness “double speak”. I hope that someday you may find such truth and peace in your life.