While the Southern District Court of New York continues its investigation of President Donald Trump, Michael Cohen, and other key political figures, the same storied “Mother Court” continues to dole out new subpoenas every week at the behest of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ printing corporation, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

This week, the Watch Tower organization initiated six new subpoena orders in the Southern District, targeting multiple independent YouTube accounts owned by Jehovah’s Witness whistleblowers.

Watch Tower Files Six New Subpoena Demands

In a recent JW Survey report released February 20th, it was revealed that the New York-based religious organization targeted Facebook with multiple threats of contempt of court for Facebook’s alleged non-compliance with a subpoena signed by Judge Cathy Seibel on October 16th 2018.

The subpoena demanded the identifying information of a single Facebook user account owned by an individual in Spain who professes to be an active Jehovah’s Witness. Ordinarily, accounts like this one would not draw the attention of the religious sect, but the religion targeted this person because of several posts containing material which had been leaked from inside the organization prior to official release.

Watch Tower fired up their legal machine to full thrust Monday February 25th when they submitted a 9-page letter to the Judge Seibel, accusing Facebook of “disregard for its statutory obligations and the judicial process,” adding that “Facebook should be held in contempt

The letter went on to state that “Facebook’s conduct borders on bad faith
and it should be held in contempt, directed to immediately comply with the subpoena, and be sanctioned in an amount to be determined by the Court for each day that it fails to comply with subpoena.” [sic]

On Wednesday, February 27th, Watch Tower suddenly withdrew its motion for contempt of court when it revealed that Facebook complied with the demand to produce the name and identifying information of the subject of the subpoena.

Watch Tower is now closing in on 50 subpoenas issued since mid-2017, sent to a wide-ranging group of social media sites and accounts which have hosted Jehovah’s Witness videos and documents.

The Latest Subpoenas

The Smoking Gun Video

Three of the six subpoenas filed this week by Watch Tower targeted the 2018 leak of an incriminating video titled “Records Management,” which spread across the internet last summer and was the focus of a searing expose in the Philadelphia Enquirer.

The original video featured Watchtower executive Shawn Bartlett teaching foreign Branch elders how to manage records destruction and management techniques. While not all procedures described were illegal, Bartlett anecdotally explained that keeping a single incriminating handwritten note once cost Watchtower New York upwards of $200,000 in one lawsuit. The message was clear: destroy everything that could be used against the organization.

Once leaked, the Records Management video was shared across numerous YouTube channels, all of which have become a target for Watch Tower. The shared videos were renamed by these user accounts, but all contained the same content:

  • Title of Video: ALERT! Watchtower destroying records – legal attacks by Satan’. LEAKED VIDEO. (JW Suicides)
  • Title of Video: Watchtower destroys crime records in the organization (Alfa Omega)
  • Title of Video: Mirrored – Watchtower Leaked Video Records Management (JW Victims)
Shawn Bartlett, Records Management and Auditing Executive

Many of the other targeted videos contain Spanish-language content from Spanish user accounts. In every single case, Watch Tower has targeted those accounts which have at least one video or document which is not available on its own JW.org website or tv.jw.org video content platform.

The posting or leaking of content without the express permission of the Jehovah’s Witness Governing Body is strictly forbidden, which is why the JW organization has escalated their efforts to snare the individuals responsible for the leaked material.

Secrecy: OK for Watch Tower, not for Others

On June 1, 1997, the Watchtower Magazine released an article titled “Secrecy in the name of the Lord”, in which the organization condemned the secrecy of notorious cults including Aum Shinrikyo and the Branch Davidians.

Just 3 months earlier, the Watchtower New York corporation of Jehovah’s Witnesses issued the infamous March 14th secret letter to all Bodies of Elders in which church clergymen were instructed to forward all known cases of appointed JW ministers found guilty of child molestation to Watchtower Headquarters.

The information was to be kept strictly confidential and not shared with anyone, including law enforcement officials or child protective services agents. The Jehovah’s Witness Organization received those reports in sealed “special blue envelopes” which formed the basis for the secret database of Witness child molesters.

It’s no secret to insiders of the Jehovah’s Witness organization that millions of dollars have been spent securing organizational data, including child abuse and other sensitive documents. in 2013, Watchtower purchased an independent telecom company and strung dedicated fiber cable between its New York corporate offices, used in part to isolate their ultra-private Legal and Service Department networks.

Supplementing their infrastructure, Watchtower purchased multiple $8,000+ professional scanners, capable of scanning hundreds of thousands of pages in a short period of time, used initially in their transition from Brooklyn New York to the Warwick headquarters compound. Documents are retained in multiple searchable data centers including the United States, Japan, and the Netherlands.

Watchtower June 1, 1997 - Secrecy
Watchtower June 1, 1997: Secrecy

The level of secrecy, Orwellian control, and the recent organizational dependence on technology and legal support appears to have overshadowed the fundamental concept of Christianity.

The gap between rank and file members of the organization and those who pull the corporate strings has become a massive chasm. The average Witness knows little or nothing of these things. They simply trust.

While millions of dollars in donated funds are dispensed to satisfy the rising number of child abuse lawsuits, Jehovah’s Witnesses’ legal department has curiously found the time and finances to aggressively tackle any suspected current or former member who shares their content.

The notion of “received free, give free” does not apply to the Jehovah’s Witness corporate empire. The Biblical image of a poor, but spiritually rich savior has been replaced with real estate holdings, printeries, lawyers, and an insulated, self-anointed, self-appointed board of directors.

“But there is nothing covered up that will not be uncovered, or secret that will not be found out”

Luke 12:2, New World translation

Watch Tower legal has screamed foul when there is a delay or failure to comply with their demands for irrelevant and meaningless social media account holder data; yet when it comes to critical child abuse documents subpoenaed by multiple courts, they take evasive maneuvers.

As of Thursday, February 28th, 2019, five of the six DMCA subpoenas have been signed by the judges assigned to each case.



“Watch Tower” refers to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, the holder of printing copyrights. Most copyrights however are not registered officially with the United States Copyright Office

“Watchtower” refers to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, the owners of real estate, including headquarters locations and Kingdom Halls.

Additional References:

Philly.com Video Exposing Records Management and Document Destruction by JWs

Watchtower in Focus: Episode 21- Subpoena Warfare

Mark O'Donnell

Mark O'Donnell is a former Jehovah's Witness turned whistleblower after discovering the disturbing child abuse epidemic within the religion. His story, along with the revelation of a secret database of child molesters were featured in the March 2019 online issue of the Atlantic Magazine: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/ O'Donnell continues to investigate allegations of child abuse within the Witness organization, and works with law enforcement, attorneys, and survivors of abuse, writing about his findings on jwsurvey.org and other outlets.

81 thoughts on “Facebook Yields to Watch Tower Subpoena; Jehovah’s Witnesses Issue 6 More to YouTube

  • February 28, 2019 at 12:16 pm

    An outrageous injustice that favors a cult. The whistle blowers will be thrown to the wolves. This type of stuff is why I disappear for months at a time from anything JW or exjw. Too frustrating. Life is too short and has its own problems.

  • February 28, 2019 at 1:42 pm

    “But there is nothing covered up that will not be uncovered, or secret that will not be found out”~Luke 12:2, New World translation
    You quoted just the right scripture that assures us that whistleblowers will win in the end over corrupt organizations like Watchtower.

  • February 28, 2019 at 1:59 pm

    All totalitarian systems cannot relinquish their grip on their members so they cannot endure any negative criticism which is branded as hate mail. Where is the humility to admit errors or confess wrongdoing?

  • February 28, 2019 at 4:10 pm

    Why are they trying to shut down any form of apostate satanic attack?? I thought that was to be expected just before the start of the great tribulation. Isn’t it the final straw for Jehovah when opposers start to point the finger at His earthly organisation? The figurative poke in the eye for the Almighty? Maybe the GB are not ready for Armageddon yet- maybe they want to screw a few more millions of dollars out of its members before they are exposed as just another controlling cult? If members wake up and leave who will do all their donkey work maintaining and refurbishing their property portfolios? These charlatans know they’re on borrowed time and are just trying to stretch it out a bit longer.
    If it was really ‘the truth’ then what to they have to fear from apostate lies? Nothing is stronger than the truth. Yes, the truth is comparable to a mighty sword and the sooner it’s weilded against this corrupt organisation the better.

    • March 1, 2019 at 8:51 am

      Agree, this is looking rather odd given their Bible teachings of the 1990s – has the Bible changed? Then, JWs were expecting, 1) a war on ‘false religion’, i.e. all religions except JWs. This seemed plausible given that many religions are rather Left politivcally and the neoliberal Right seems to be triumphing; many religions enjoy tax exemptions, and govts were even then running short of money as the wealthy avoided tax; and many religions comsume resources like land and time. Then 2) a Declaration of Peace & Security – followed by ‘sudden destruction’ – again plausible if the end pf (mainstream) religions seemed to produce calm, but actually gave popular resentment and activism, also 3) A political fragmentation in the world, which actually seems to be occurring e.g. Brexit, rise of insular Populist leader. Also 3) a quasi-collapse in ther economic system, they will throw their gold and sikver in the streets (or maybe an end to cash?), but despite this chaos, the econo-political systems continue to struggle on to the very End (cast in the fire). Again plausible, as Austerity continues and wealth inequalities grow. Meanwhile 4) the social discontent we see globally is well summarised at 2 Tim 3: 1-5 – a result of global plutocracy and consequent lack of respect for govts or anyone – a fish rots from the head down, as they say. Finally 5) and end to wars but an illusory period of sort-of peace in the very last days. Oh and 6) the ‘generation’ of those born before 1 October 1914 hasn’t quite died out, there are still ca. 30,000 such people around, their numbers are falling by 50% a year and the last such person may be aliobe until ca. 2030. – So just when the signs if anything were looking clearer, the Borg implodes with all this child abuse, the communality, sociability of the congs falls to almost zero, replaced by shunning etc, and they get keener on procedural thinsg like bros mus wear suits even on csar psark duty. And it looks like main religions carry on whilst the world spoylights the JW kiddie fiddlers, Very odd???

    • March 5, 2019 at 2:25 am

      Hey lady! I’ve been busy and haven’t seen you in the comments for quite some time. Most likely because of my own preoccupation with toddler life. She’s so beautiful and happy. She is the absolute best thing in my life right now.

      How are you? How is your health? I think of you often and have hoped you are well.

  • February 28, 2019 at 6:20 pm

    Is there anywhere these videos have been archived on like rutube?
    I think people need to upload this stuff to rutube from now on without revealing their identity or IP addresses.
    Its important that these videos are available to the wider public, some i have not seen before, if anyone has links, i would like to see them!

  • February 28, 2019 at 7:09 pm

    Please use fake registration data and a VPN with any platform you choose to use for whistleblowing purposes. Subpoenas will do no good if the platform doesn’t even know who you are.

    • March 14, 2019 at 9:23 am

      Thanks for the advice. As one of those who has been sub poena-ed, I’m not good at the technical options.

  • March 1, 2019 at 5:22 am

    Absolutely outrageous and hypocritical!

  • March 3, 2019 at 4:51 am

    Doesn’t the WT believe in freedom o Speech and Freedom of religion as they say and claim? Remember all the articles about JW’s just being Peace loving Christians who Believe in Freedom of thought and religion? NOT.

  • March 3, 2019 at 8:29 pm

    Its a Big Money organisation being threatened by these people & it threatens their Financial bottom line so yes opposes must be crushed & made to be silent, the only problem now is the internet & the mass of Information available, yes they might shut one site down but another will appear & another & so on, We have just seen Cardinal Pell get a guilty verdict, people are waking up, Religion has no place in the Modern world, we are more educated now, yes congs will continue to shrink & the numbers will decline across all churches, i can’t wait to see it.

    • March 3, 2019 at 11:18 pm

      @Whip It, although religion is sinking, it is being replaced by a new religion full of virtue signalling which adherents follow with a religious fervour. We may find that the modern zealots are as bad if not worse than the past.

      If you see what the social conditions are in China where traditional religion and culture has been overturned to atheism, you may reconsider what you hope for.

      Unfortunately, historians like Nial Ferguson and writers like Mark Steyn are warning that the West is sinking into oblivion precisely because we have abandoned our religious foundations .

      Although Christianity has its downsides, in the future I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t viewed fondly, when its replacement is found to be much much worse.

      • March 11, 2019 at 4:25 pm

        What do you fear from atheism, and is it rooted in fact?

  • March 4, 2019 at 5:22 pm

    Ricardo, sorry mate i can’t stand Religion & what it has done, i do believe in Mans ability to practice the common good, some types of people fail, ie China, & i believe certain types of people can never be helped, its in their DNA or lack of.

    • March 5, 2019 at 5:16 am

      Whip it. I cannot agree with your thoughts on mans ability to practice the common good will prevail. It has never happened since our existence on this planet. Sure it exists in individuals for sure but not overall. Especially now with over 8 Billion people in the world things will get more complicated on this planet. Maybe it is my JW background still inculcating my mind or just my experience in observing life and history on this planet over millenniums but even on small scale level like a city council meeting over a local issue I have seen people ready to fight over small things and then project that onto a large scale and it gets worse. Religion has a bad history but so does Politics, government, A godless Society is just as bad or Worse. Look at Former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Albania, Then look at Religion. Isis, History of Catholic Church, History Of Islam, Judaism . All the same.
      Wars, bloodshed, Power, torture. The difference as I see it and this is only my opinion is the “Christian” World of Europe and North America advanced much faster and more equitable after centuries of fighting. Today is the aftermath of centuries of teachings that have beneficial effects of some positive aspects of Judeo/Christianity. Sure e there are plenty of negative teachings but the teachings of Love, Freedom, equality, hard work,forgiveness and hope had a effective positive result in many ways. I know they had a negative history for sure in any ways as well but some basic truths were always there. When I think about where do all the refugees and immigrants in todays world want to go and live? it is to the Western world. It is of course for material benefits as well but also they se a chance for freedom that they would ever have in most other places of the world.
      I think the history of Christianity had a lot to do with current Society. This may be to simplistic and you dont have to agree with it and I understand that but when I look at the Big picture to me it makes sense.

    • March 6, 2019 at 2:39 am

      @Whip It, Have you seen anything about the situation in Portland, USA, where protestors took over the city after the mayor instructed the policeforce to stand down? Look it up on Tucker Carlson’s program on Fox news. Innocent white men driving through the city area were attacked for being white men. This sort of religious fervour against white men in particular is totally unreasonable. Add to this, nonsense about walls being immoral, and we have a whole new religion based on nonsense but whose adherents are ready to take over cities and attack innocent people based on their new moral principles.

      This is not in China. This is in post-Christian USA. Not something we like to see, not something we are used to, but it looks like the future for the West.

  • March 5, 2019 at 5:23 am

    I meant to say Maybe my “FORMER” JW Background had some influence on my thinking.
    I have not been a JW for well over 20 years now. I was raised Catholic an d became a JW arounf 19 years old. The JW’s were good at capitalizing on anyone’s fears or religious fears. It is the Religion of FOG. ” Fear Obligation Guilt”. I think that is why the JW;s in the past did so well with Converting Catholics bc Catholics have all 3 but the ARMEGEDDON fear they never had so the JW’s jump all over that bc it was a new fear and most Catholic s did not gro w up hearing about it until the JW’s came along and then KABOOM they used it as a tool.

  • March 5, 2019 at 12:59 pm

    Even though this is not a site centering on politics I want to use the current political dialogs repeated in the United States as an example of how repetitive proclamations form beliefs in people, and especially in the ignorant. On TV stations in the United States I have never seen anything like this. CNN being the primary offender. All day long for most of the days of the week (weekends partially excluded) they offer one story, DONALD TRUMP! Their only purpose in each story is to discredit him. In doing so half of what they discuss is speculation, forty percent is opinions, and only about 10% is factual.

    My personal belief is that the Democratic party and its backers like CNN has overreached in playing its members for fools. The majority of Democrats are not as stupid as this type of reporting makes them appear. And while the surrounded by a flag democrat will follow the party anywhere there are a lot of people who analyze situations and only then follow what they believe works . Thus unless something drastic happens the dems will never get their pistol out its holster. They will continue to shoot themselves in the foot .

    Here is just one example. But about everything they say follows the same pattern. Their repeated claim that Trump is a racist. No proof of that. It falls on its face like the Russian claims did.

    Those types of repeated assertions offering more than speculation and opinions than fact is how we were trapped inside WT. It also appears to be how many atheists are trapped in atheism from reading commenters on this site.

    As an Example: Their big assertion – The Bible was not written by the writers that are claimed in the book, and the books were written well after those stated periods claimed in the Bible also. Thus what appears as fulfilled prophecy stems from a hoax. And they continue their thought stating, go to the historians and discover that.

    Same crap CNN comes up with huh? Make some assertion and then present some EXPERTS who confirm it with no facts.

    Get off your asses and present the facts? Or oh? There are none. It’s a CNN, Democratic, and uneducated atheists’ trick. Don’t fall for it.

    And oh! WT uses the same trick.

    • March 5, 2019 at 11:47 pm

      you’re old enough to know that where there’s smoke there’s fire, messenger. The FBI would be negligent in their duty if they didn’t investigate the smoke and all they did was get fired for it. More smoke. Do you want to find out the truth or not?
      Incidentally, Trump was refused permission to build a casino in Australia because of his connections to the Mob. The Australians did their homework. Why don’t you.
      No offense intended and this is all I intend to say on the matter.

      • March 6, 2019 at 12:47 pm

        A smokescreen is more like it. Like he is a racist because he wants to build a wall? Daaa… different ideas! Like Daniel didn’t write Daniel because… Daaa. I don’t think so.

        Same with the Trump nonsense from CNN, or MSNBC’s nonsense. But it does support one of your beliefs. People believe what they want to believe, and lacking any evidence makes no difference.

        So let’s apply this to the WT. Again, as I’ve said before WT teaches with absolutely no scriptural proof that GOD does not contact people in our day. All those following WT claiming to be annointed then should accept that. Thus none of the true believers of WT should suggest they were contacted by God.

        Though WT teaches it receives no special treatment from God it is also God’s exclusive spokesman. And why? Because everyone else teaches incorrect Bible teachings with some correct ones. Remember, ” a little poison”?

        But WT teaches it teaches wrong with its right teachings also. It is only successful using this double standard approach in because it reiterates, reiterates, and reiterates the same message.

        Now here’s why I claim that line of crap won’t work with the Democratic party. Because when WT first fooled us then biblically we were totally ignorant. And it didn’t matter whether we were born in or learning from WT as adults, biblical we didn’t know crap. Once we were in WT we would only vote the way a true believer would. Which was for WT. A dem will always vote dem. A true believing JW will always side with WT. However, to win the next presidential election the dems will need votes from people who are not pure dems. The crap CNN is spinning is going to turn a lot of those people off, as it is 100% crap. No facts -or smoke to use your metaphor – all opinion.
        No, there was absolutely no logical basis to look into Trump.

        Hillary on the otherhand definitely broke the law. If you had done what she did you might be writing from jail. Here’s an example: One of the temporary leaders, a woman, that was over the commission investigating child sexual abuse in Britain wrote on her website that if an organization refuses to turn over docs she asks for she would throw people in jail. Hillary even destroyed phones and computers that requested government docks were created on and/or transmitted over. Include that with having classified government information sent to an unauthorized server, and then compare those facts to the phony lies Hillary paid for, which was information from Russians used as an attempt to take down Trump. If you cannot see the difference I can’t help you.

  • March 6, 2019 at 8:46 pm

    Hi everyone, got those points & yes can see all of that, my opinion on People probably stems from the JW doctrine that everyone out there thats not a JW is evil, simply not true, i do see a lot of good in people & yes have to agree the bad & the evil are out there to, even inside JW World, cheers all from Australia.

  • March 6, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    Outandabout. It’s the statement, “Do your homework, ” from you and other commenters on this website for the last couple years that I was complaining about. Or rather I was warning other readers not to be misled by that comment attached to mere opinions.

    I see only three possible reasons for you to use such statements.
    1. You discovered some information which you don’t want to put forth effort to share facts about. AND WE BOTH KNOW THAT’S NOT TRUE. If you know something you share it.

    2. You read something that you don’t understand enough for you to teach it.

    3. Or, you ran across opinions of experts not factually proven. THIS IS MOST LIKELY. And I see you as asking me to research opinions.

    So, if you have some facts to make your point about when the Bible books were written or any other significant points about the Bible lay those out in your comments. Or, you can be the CNN of the JWsurvey page, since those others I used to read here who stated, go to the experts seem to have abandoned that cry and vanished.

    • March 7, 2019 at 12:37 am

      Let’s just say Hilary is the biggest crook in the world. How does that make Donald a saint?

      Would a President with real brains take credit for a rise in the stock market without realizing he will have to take credit for a crash as well? No real President would ever be that stupid and anyway, the market was already rising when he took office. Check it out.

      Would the smartest President in history really need to threaten his school not to release his grades and then get them to sign a non-disclosure? Shouldn’t he be encouraging the school to release them and show us all how smart he is? He was rich, spoiled and dumb, wasn’t he?

      Are you happy with the emergence of a Royal Family in the USA?

      You’ve fallen for another cult, messenger, and you’re applying the same amount of cognitive dissonance to him as you did the WT because you want to believe him. Once, you believed WT was the one true religion and all other religions were in apostasy and the world was ruled by Satan and was out to destroy WT. . Now, you believe that Fox is the one deliverer of truth and all the countless other news agencies are conspiring against Trump. Funny that.

      You woke up to WT by looking at both sides. Why don’t you do that again. I doubt you will though. The hard core of Republicans are religious fundamentalists like you and are therefore primed for conspiracy theories about the government and how it’s going to rise up and destroy Christians. This is further fueled by Progressives recognizing that Gay people have a right to exist. And then the there’s scepter of Socialism being used to fire up The Base. Ask people who live in other functioning countries that have health cover for everybody as of right whether or not they feel they would be better off without it.

      The Republican party is not going to restore the power of religion. Because of more convincing answers, each generation is less of a believer than the one before and there’s nothing you or I can do about it. The cats out of the bag.

      • March 7, 2019 at 9:45 am

        Let’s get back to what you preach about the Bible. CNN goes round and round offering opinions about Trump, full of speculations that never materialize. I don’t debate opinions.

        But you stated what you claimed are Biblical truths. State the facts, if you know any, and get off the CNN trip about telling us what somebody else THINKS about that. What facts if any do you know that prove that Daniel was not written by Daniel, it was written after the events prophesied in it happened? Or if you have any facts to PROVE any other derogatory comments about the Bible lets hear them. If archeologist haven’t found pots are pans or other artifacts from ancient Jews wandering around in the desert 3500 years ago it doesn’t surprise me. If I was wandering around in it that long ago I don’t think they would find anything I left either. If I was out in the desert I think I would have been very careful to keep my limited possessions with me. Archeologists usually excavate where towns existed unless looking for dinosaur bones.

        But to my main point back up your points with facts. Like I push this undeniable fact in your face. There are thousands of people who claim contact by God. Now what is your retort? Another option?

  • March 7, 2019 at 1:23 am

    Ricardo, don’t worry about the world descending into chaos without churches. For a start, religion is likely to always exist in some form for as long as we are afraid of the dark and of what we don’t understand.
    If you think atheists are going to run about slashing everybody to pieces, you’re wrong. Are they doing that now? Most prison inmates identify as Christian.
    Take a look at largely atheist countries like in Scandinavia. Pretty good, right? And fairly ‘socialist’ too.
    Take Bhutan who are non- christian and reportedly have the happiest people on earth. The government has a policy of assuring every thing they do adds to the happiness and well- being of the people.
    Trouble starts when people’s basic needs are not met. As the world population expands there will be more and more chance of things turning to custard because of dwindling space and resources. This will be a challenge and this is why we must all start mingling in a controlled manner and learn to accept one another now. We must adopt a Christian attitude, if you like, because if we don’t do it willingly soon, we’ll be forced to do it later on but in a nasty fashion. We must be like Jesus. You like that?
    Don’t be concerned about China. They are only behaving like humans. They saw what happened when communism suddenly ended in Russia. Chaos. They see they have to let the reins go slow and easy and strike a balance somewhere. As for them clamping down on religion, once again they can observe the rest of the world and realize it’s actually a retrograde force and what they want is everybody in the country included and contributing and not thinking ‘whats the use, gods gonna destroy everyone anyway’. They want to create a new civilization for the future. Lets all do that.

  • March 7, 2019 at 10:08 am

    “Never argue with a fool. He’ll only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”
    Mark Twain

    • March 7, 2019 at 12:14 pm

      I find it very interesting that for several years commenters on this page, principally Caroline (now defunct), Dee 2 ( now defunct), Randy G(a periodic poster), and Outandabout continue to assert that the history of the Bible’s creation is not as every Christian religion claims it is without ever producing one fact to back up their assertions. And hangers on like Mr Gruntle occasionally jump in offering their side no factual point, yet get their feelings hurt when that is brought out- THAT HE CANNOT PROVE THE POINT OR STATED FALSE POINTS.

      Hey posters. John Redwood, Lloyd, and Covert just don’t tell us to research a topic ourselves because they understand what they research and can share it. How about doing that same?

  • March 7, 2019 at 12:41 pm

    Outandabout did I make any comments centering on my support for TRUMP? No. Any comments even mentioning Trump were in reference to the what is disgustingly passed on as factual news by outfits like CNN.

    And those references were to help readers understand you do the same thing CNN does, and so does WT. I tell you to prove a point and your response is to talk about me. Only reason I see for that is you not being able to prove your point.

    Lot of rhetoric going down like cognitive dissonance and advice given to learn what experts think without ever sharing anything substantial.

    No wonder for the past 2000 years none of the churches listened to you. And I don’t think a present JW will either.

    On the other hand if I asked them how do they like a GB member telling the world they are a lousy husband if WT hasn’t appointed them to ministerial servant, that might get their attention. And that statement can be backed up factually. It’s not an opinion. And it doesn’t require me attempting to analyze someone’s mental state that I have never met. Which is where you also constantly drop the ball.

  • March 7, 2019 at 7:52 pm

    messenger, you pointed to Trump and gave him credit for the stock market months ago. I remember you saying it.

    Finding whether Jews lived in a particular area is down to the absence or presence of pork bones, not pottery.

    I don’t deny anybody’s claim that they’ve been contacted by god. That is what they believe. In Australia there’s a man named Alan John Miller, an ex-JW who firmly believes he is Jesus. You can watch him on Utube and he appears perfectly sane.

    I don’t claim to know your mental state but you are a religious fundamentalist and are therefore predictable in certain ways. I can read about you in a book. Parts of you run to a script.

    I don’t remember what I stated as biblical truths. You’ll have to tell me.

    It’s not my intention to take anybody’s belief away, indeed, if I had the power to do that I wouldn’t because it would cause a vacuum in peoples lives. What I would like to see is a backing up of the bus and away from all this absolutism when the fact of the matter is, your proofs are being overtaken by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. All you really have is a club of like minded people who are becoming steadily marginalized by indisputable facts and answers which are much more credible. If you were wise you’d maybe come down off your high horse.

    Meanwhile on the southern border, what do you think Jesus would do if he was down there right now? Would he be separating families and putting them into cages? When Pelosi said it was ‘immoral’, this is what she was talking about and that Jesus wouldn’t do it. I find it rather interesting that at a time like this, it’s the Progressives, who are more likely to be atheist, who adopt a more Christian attitude while the Republicans who are more likely to be fundamentalist Christian, behave in a non-christian way. If your view of the world were correct, it would be those godless atheists locking kids up while those loving Republicans would be down there feeding them.

    The bible sets you an impossible task, messenger.

  • March 8, 2019 at 1:24 am

    Outandabout it looks like there is no change in you. I guess you value opinions more than facts, as you have been asked to produce some; and the only one you now come up with is whether or not pork bones from 3500 years ago were found, or not found, in a desert proves there was no Jewish exodus from Egypt. Is that a joke? I guess wherever a 3500 year old pork bone is found no ancient Jew camped. But if part of the desert is absent of 3500 year old pork bones a Jewish encampment surely must be the reason? This illustrates why I keep telling you to prove your points. If somebody buys into that sort of nonsense they deserve to, and to receive any resulting consequence.

    The rest of your comment is as always. It says nothing. Stating to me, ” the facts are overtaking you messenger, ” says nothing. First, it’s just an opinion. Secondly, it suggests you cannot articulate the facts? Or, are all your facts opinions, or like your 3500 year old pork bone study? Give us more of those type of facts. Maybe you can become an intern on CNN, the Constantly Negative Network full of speculative opinions they pass on as facts. And is it really so you don’t know what facts you were asked to provide just two inches above this post? I don’t buy it. But thanks for the 3500 year old pork bone study.

    As for my mental or emotional status which you frequently comment on. I don’t have the type of disposition to ever have had cognitive dissonance or be angry at WT. I’m the type of person that disfellowshipped WT. The same as a boss would fire a dishonest employee.
    As I learned WT was apostate I cut it OFF without giving that action a second thought or caring about anyone else’s opinion about me doing it. I don’t and never did entertain conflicting viewpoints. I am not a crier about WT or angry about it. To me it’s just apostate. Christ will deal with it.

  • March 8, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    I’m not into writing novels, messenger, but you seem to be fairly hot under the collar here, so…..I read about a 10yr Israeli government sanctioned search for archaeological evidence supporting the Exodus. Unfortunately I can’t find that article again but I’ve found this in the Jerusalem Post;
    ‘The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside the bible to support it, blah blah nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelite’s, nothing on the plagues that persuaded the Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing. Nothing at all’. unquote.
    Nobody other than Israel has more to gain than proving the Exodus and further reading shows they haven’t given up hope. Pork bones is only one method, not the whole thing.

    I’m not at all concerned about your emotional status. You seem reasonably robust and you have plenty of fight in you but the fact of the matter is, it is well known that absolute religious belief can bring on delusions and mania in some people. That guy I saw out on the highway carrying an eight foot cross with a roller skate on the bottom and wearing a crown of thorns……do you possibly think he had a message from God? Or how many tons of guilt and confusion has he had heaped upon him courtesy of a belief system that demands maximum servility with maximum solipsism. Some people simply cannot handle such crap and break under strain of trying to achieve the impossible. I guess he just wasn’t good enough at the fine art of lying to oneself.

    I’m right, your beliefs are being steadily marginalized because each new generation is less of a believer then the one before and this has been going on since the 30’s in most western countries and is now picking up speed because of better answers. Death by attrition. That is a fact, not an opinion.

    I was hoping for a comment from you on the situation at the southern border. You have the Democrats wanting to be more like Jesus and the Republicans wanting to be less like Jesus. Nancy Pelosi said the wall, etc was immoral and from a Christian standpoint, she’s absolutely right. What do you say to that?

  • March 9, 2019 at 1:49 am

    Messenger, I love you. Let’s be friends.

    • March 9, 2019 at 2:00 am

      Will you come with me to the Middle East to look for pork bones?

      • March 9, 2019 at 2:07 am

        Since you are in contact with God, He’ll tell you where to look.

  • March 9, 2019 at 4:52 am

    The Watchtower Society is a keen practitioner of the art of DARVO – Deny Attack Reverse Victim & Offender.

  • March 9, 2019 at 5:10 am

    Hey, just for sh*ts and giggles, let’s compare Jesus and Hitler. Let’s see, they both were narcissists who loved delivering long-winded speeches to large, adoring crowds. They both lived off the public dole after becoming famous. Neither of them was particularly educated. They both had books written by or about them. They both had facial hair. They both had abusive fathers. They both created a bunch of strict rules for their adherents to follow. They both were viewed as messiahs. They both promised a (future) paradise. They both insisted that theirs was the ONLY “way” – on penalty of death. They both condemned homosexuals to death. They both began by preaching to one particular race of people, with the ultimate goal of spreading their ideology globally. They both had an inner circle of close confidantes and operatives. They both died for their cause and were deified by their followers for generations to come. Directly or indirectly, they both inspired millions to kill other millions. They both hated Jewish religious leaders. Hitler owned a dog. There is no record of Jesus owning any pets.

  • March 9, 2019 at 7:51 pm

    Outandabout. I am not going to entertain your purpose. I follow my own reasons for commenting here not yours. One of my reasons, which should be clear by now to all readers because I have shared it, is to alert readers that you and some other posters present opinions as if those are facts, and you specifically cloud your points with irrelevant material to obscure that fact, frequently commenting on personalities you don’t even know. None of that proves your points against a god. Do you really think that works to help your fundamental argument?

    As for the historical record of the Jews including the exodus it’s contained in their religious writings. Now do you have any other evidence like your pork bone study to suggest those writings were not written at the times stated in Bibles? I believe that is your claim. And stick to facts. I make my own judgments. Opinions carry no weight, and that is what you usually cite as if those represent facts. We keep hearing what someone else thinks from you. Are you a follower? What about the praised critical thinking skill?

    • March 9, 2019 at 11:58 pm

      messenger, you are always stating that what is written in the bible is fact and yet very little of whats presented in the bible can be claimed as fact. ‘The bible is true because it says it’s true’ is illogical. A judge may as well believe a criminal when he says he’s innocent if we are to use your logic.

      And I’d say the Jew’s understood that and that’s why they went looking for proper evidence because if they were so absolutely and irrevocably sure of their position about their claim, they would not feel the need to do anything about trying to prove it. Their search proves doubt, but at least they were honest about the findings.

      So the Exodus is written in Jewish writings so therefore it’s true? Messenger, these people tell there problems to a freakin’ wall!

      Yes, I can understand your reluctance to answer my question about the southern border. But you know, messenger. You know. Christian hypocrisy for the world to see? Another fine demonstration in real time of how Christian beliefs are unworkable in the real world.

      But Jesus was a Democrat, aye? He’d have to be. He’d be down there rubbing sore feet and handing out bread and fish and turning the Rio Grande into wine.

      But I must confess that I was willing to give Trump a go as an interesting change even though my Uncle who spent most of his working life in the government was aghast. I said to him “he can’t do anything rash because it’s a Democracy”. He said “don’t you believe it!”. Turns out I was naive. And I’m totally against people walking across the border willy nilly.

      And i know you’re into fact’s so here’s one; 90% of illegals enter the country through airports and just don’t go back. It would take a wall higher than 33,000 ft to stop that.

      And how dare you not entertain my purpose.

      • March 10, 2019 at 6:26 am

        My point is this. If the prophetic books were written around the dates the Bible claims those were, then your conclusions expressed on this website are proven erroneous Outandabout. Just the correct dates of two of those writings would prove that, Daniel and Isaiah. Every JW and exJW will understand why. They need no explanation from me because they have already been taught the content of those books through WT. And side issues, like what Trump did or events that happen at the border, don’t pertain to your fundamental argument or mine. That’s why I don’t answer your questions about those things.

        But I have given you and all other posters on this website plenty of time and encouraged you to prove what you have claimed is a truth that no Christian or Jewish church believes. And they hold their beliefs because of the beliefs of all the scholars they have had for thousands of years studying the subject. So my acceptance is not just because the Bible claims it was written on certain dates. The world says it not just the Bible.

        The only people I have ever heard claim dates that are different are on this website. Your conspiracy theory claims not only did Bible writers fraudulently present a hoax, but so have Bible scholars for thousands of years. So is it logical for readers here to believe you referencing pork bone studies or thousands of years of acceptance by most people in the world and scholars? The answer is obvious to me. Why should I believe Outandabout or Caroline when they cannot even articulate what people they claim are scholars teach except for a pork bone study of 3500 year old pork bones? Oh, you did claim what some group did not find. That doesn’t prove your point. Tell me what scholars did find and why the church fails to acknowledge it if it’s true.

        • March 10, 2019 at 9:25 pm

          All good, messenger, and I’ll give what you say some thought.
          I’ll tell you though, I’d march in the streets to defend your right to believe any god you like but I ‘d also march to stop you from forcing your beliefs on young unformed minds. If your beliefs are all they’re cracked up to be, those kids will surely find out when they’re adults and capable of proper judgments. But unfortunately, churches know full well that their survival depends on brainwashing and therefore trapping the children, and all under the guise of spiritual safety while their brainwashed parents just nod and go along with it. A nasty circle of abuse. I say this is evil.

      • March 10, 2019 at 3:05 pm

        Outandabout, I admire you for your patience and endurance in answering to messenger. I can’t any longer read his ramblings. He is clearly going by his agenda and has no interest in anseering or just simply interact. He is diverting from all confrontation, offering his opinion and telling you that yours are just opinions. He’s refusing all facts and going on with his delusion. I wouldn’t waste any more time with someone hearing voices or having visions. He is clearly a very old men with plenty of time to write and proselitize here.
        Good life to everybody

        • March 10, 2019 at 9:31 pm

          I guess messenger and I are alike, Tranquillo, in that we both want the last say.
          We’re also alike in that we are both like two blind men in a completely dark circular room looking for a black cat that doesn’t exist. The only difference is, messenger has found the cat. – Irish comedian Dave Allen taking the piss out of the Catholic Church.

  • March 9, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    I know the law. I shall exercise my legal acumen to appraise Watchtower’s position.
    The Watchtower Society may have subpoenas. In fact, they have many subpoenas. However, the fact is, they are all extremely small, extremely tiny, subpoenas.
    Boom. There, I think I just earned today’s dose of Nutella and peanut butter.
    Later, bitches.

  • March 10, 2019 at 2:36 pm

    Since messenger hasn’t taken up my offer to accompany me to the Middle East to track down pork bones, perhaps someone else with supernatural connections is willing to help. Tony “Tight Pants Vietnam” Morris, Stephen “Face Dancer” Lett, Geoffrey “Constitution” Jackson, y’all out there? Drop me a line.
    And don’t forget your tin foil hat.

  • March 10, 2019 at 2:51 pm

    Any JW who still believes in your Glorified Leaders (GB, elders, overseers, etc), put them to the test. Use the following techniques to gauge their responses. And don’t forget the DARVO strategy used by the guilty – Deny Attack Reverse Victim & Offender.

  • March 10, 2019 at 4:45 pm

    Tranquillo is anyone even asking you to read anything here? Absolutely not! But the ramblings from you and the jokers who support you are a teachable lesson for readers. Changing the subject and speaking about personalities rather than addressing the truth that you can find, or cannot find, facts to support your ideas teaches honest people that what you claim you don’t know. And that reveals your motivations.

    One thing commenters like you, gruntled, and Outandabout do is prove why many people do not accept God. Your reaction to the question I raised concerning Outandabout’s assertion prove it’s purely your choice because it’s what you want. When asked repeatedly to share contrary truths your experts have found proving the authorship dates of Bible books are listed incorrectly you offer nothing except opinions about me. Because either you are not intelligent enough to share what you have learned, or you have nothing to share, and have learned nothing. In which case it makes you dishonest.

    If you are offended because I have exposed that so be it. Convincing you as an individual is not my task. Exposing why you behave the way you do, so that others not. yourselves, will understand, so they appreciate the reason for the everlasting consequence of your action is my goal.

  • March 10, 2019 at 11:12 pm

    I wonder why the Pope has not commented on Trump going around autographing Bibles?

      • March 11, 2019 at 2:53 pm

        This article holds no weight with me, gruntled. Assuming it is not fake news, all we have is one tyrant pissing in the pocket of another by congratulating them on how well they trap people in a cult. WT is the worst of the two.
        Both of them are dealing systemic child abuse and although one was eventually forced to admit and deal with the problem, the other is still denying it to the followers and are busy behind the scenes getting rid of much of the evidence as possible. Just like Jesus would do.
        Is this an olive branch to WT or is it the first step in the evolution of belief where churches realize they are doomed but one way to ride the gravy train a bit further would be to all unite under one banner. Good luck with that.
        Churches are taking on a different form. Look at these places that are not much more than the coming together of people for a good feed, chat and a knees up and with Jesus as a side dish. The organizers are only concerned with cash. Jesus is a marketing tool and the followers somehow think they’re on their way to heavenly glory.

  • March 10, 2019 at 11:40 pm

    Tranquillo, messenger is what is referred to as a “shill”. I doubt he is truly crazy. My bet is that he is a Watchtower mole sent here to disrupt the dialogue and drive people away from this site.
    Make sense?

    • March 11, 2019 at 3:04 pm

      What dialog Gruntle? You cannot make a point here that doesn’t focus on human personalities, unless it’s, “I hate God, or I hate Jesus. ” In other words you provide no relevant facts that are dangerous to a Christian’s faith. Even when invited to do that you cannot come up with a relevant point. And I have invited you to do just that.

      You don’t have to wonder why I am here. I already stated that. I am here to prod you into confessing you hate God, and if possible, get that reason out of you as to why you hate him. My job is easier with some than others, because with some, like yourself, it just spews out of you.

      You see everyone that receives God’s blessings has relatives or friends close to them that will not receive those blessings. It’s important to God that those who receive his blessings understand why those close to them will not. So continue in your comments please. The more you speak the easier my job is. And your thinking is representative of a great many people. So you help us to understand why God does not save everyone.

      • March 11, 2019 at 9:27 pm

        Yup. Keep on shillin’, messenger. You sound like a Watchtower lawyer. As your reward, Stephen Lett will give you cookies and milk tonight, and tuck you into bed over there at “Bethel”.
        Sweet dreams.

        • March 11, 2019 at 9:35 pm

          And since I seem to be such an expert on “human personalities”, please tell Grandpa Lett, Tight Pants Tony, Constitution Jackson, and the rest of the Gutless Body that they have the personalities of crack-smoking jackasses.
          Ta ta now.

        • March 12, 2019 at 7:36 am

          You must be slow or just started to read what I write, and have read very little of it. No one that works for WT is allowed to keep doing that after speaking against WT teachings. I speak against WT teachings.

          For example, according to Isaiah 9:6 and scriptures in the New Testament Christ is God of Christians. It doesn’t take a genius to put that together since it’s explicitly stated. WT successfully argues against that truth in convincing their converts he is not their God by arguing against a trinity. Those are two separate and distinctly different ideas, the kind of smoke screen you use. But just like some readers here JWs cannot understand that type of difference, even though it’s a glaring one. That’s why I point it out about you. No I don’t work for WT.

          • March 12, 2019 at 12:29 pm

            ‘explicitly stated’, messenger? Fine, but it seems to me that explicitly stated when talking about the contents of the bible is rather selective.

            Example; Jesus explicitly states he will return before his apostles die.

            ‘It doesn’t take a genius’ to put together what happened; just like WT today, early Christians couldn’t handle being wrong and so ‘overlapping generations’ kicks off to a highly superstitious, illiterate, afraid, ignorant, down trodden and therefore malleable population desperate for there to be more to life than what they had.

          • March 13, 2019 at 1:53 am

            It’s hard to tell what you mean as you don’t back your points up with facts, that you could have easily done here by citing scriptures Outandabout. The Bible claims there were many witnesses that saw Jesus’ return beginning three days after he died. So according to the people who wrote part of the Bible he did return. And more than one writer bore witness to that.

            If on the other hand you speak of his prophecy to bring judgment to people on the Earth. He didn’t say the generation of the apostles would see that. And they didn’t expect to. He said it will be the generation that would see (all these things) the things he spoke of proceeding his proclamations saying, “this generation. ” “All these things” includes a tribulation worse than anything that comes before it and worse than anything that will ever come after it. Matthew 24:21-22. By looking at this other part of his statement concerning “all these things, ” and reading other prophets like Ezekiel, Daniel, and John’s Revelation ” you might realize “all these things” appears to include an attack against Jerusalem that sets off a global war, or at least a really massive war that is stopped by Christ before it kills everyone. The generation that sees that is the one Christ spoke of when he said, “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. ” Luke 21:32 And the last one of those things to occur is the visible presence of Christ. The one you were probably referring to.

            Until all those things occur it’s impossible to identify who “this generation ” is that will see it.

  • March 11, 2019 at 9:44 pm

    Messenger seems to think he is the Grand Inquisitor, trying to ‘prod us into confessing’. AAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
    Messenger, please tell, how does your ‘divine mission’ here on Earth mesh with your support for Trump and his border wall?

    • March 12, 2019 at 2:34 pm

      Outandabout, you make an interesting point about the JWs being “desperate for there to be more to life”. The sad irony is that there really is so much more to life than is permitted to those wearing Watchtower’s blinders. And if they adamantly and consistently refuse to reach out for the “real life” now, it begs the question, In exactly what future magical fairyland will they ultimately do so?

      • March 12, 2019 at 5:13 pm

        I was referring to Ist century people, gruntled.
        But, just look at which populations are easily converted today. It would be people living in the poorer countries who are highly superstitious and living in third world conditions for the most part. They are pre-primed to grab onto hope and so are ripe for exploitation and this can be seen by observing which countries are seeing JW growth or any other brand for that matter.
        And speaking of JW growth, how much of that growth can be attributed to young children being baptized now. Playing with numbers. Lying to defend a truth.

  • March 13, 2019 at 6:12 pm

    There’s more than one scenario used by apologetic’s to reason away that scripture, messenger, which is a bad sign for believers.

    There would have been plenty of time in the 1st century for ‘all these thing to come to pass’, wouldn’t there? Things could quite easily have turned to custard immediately. Why not?

    Notice Jesus said ‘this’ generation and not ‘that’ generation. It’s quite clear what he meant and he even told the high priest at his trial that he would see him returning on the clouds.

    So how many generations of priests does Jesus mean? You’ll have to come up with a story for that one too.

    In revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20, it’s hard to imagine the words ‘near’, ‘soon’ and ‘coming quickly’ could mean thousands of years in the future.

    Unless Jesus was a liar or deluded or there are 2,000 yr old men gadding around the Middle East…… Do you think that mental illness was unheard of back then? Or do you think there were no Billy Graham type personalities among the human population back then.

    • March 13, 2019 at 7:58 pm

      One reason you are confused is because WT confuses people since it interprets the Bible as applying to itself. It applies most of the scriptures to annointed Jehovah’s Witnesses. And even though you don’t believe WT, or the Bible, you learned about the Bible from WT. None of the scriptures really apply to WT. Most Christians understand that scripture that confuses you. JWS don’t. And the minority of Christians who believe those scriptures were fulfilled in the first century do not understand either.

      “When you see all these things know that he (Christ) is near at the doors. Truly I tell you this generation… ” What generation? The one who “see(s) all these things. ” Matthew 24:33.One of those things will be a “great tribulation such has not occurred since the world’s beginning… nor will occur again. ” Matthew 24:21. It doesn’t matter if Christ used the words this generation or that generation, the meaning is that it is the generation that would see the world’s greatest time of trouble and also see the heavenly signs listed after that trouble that is said to occur, before Christ claimed people would see his return. Those people would see those things proceeding his return. Matthew 24 : 29. That’s all he was saying. He was not limiting “this generation ” to a time period, he was limiting it to people who will be sharing the same experience. And the time period will only be recognized once that experience is shared by those people. That’s why he said, “When you SEE ALL THESE THINGS. “MATTHEW 24 : 33; Mark 13:29; Luke 21:31.

      It’s fitting he would tell people he will return when they see such trouble, so they will not be afraid but have hope. Luke 21 :28. All the gospels say the same thing. Mark 13 and Luke 21,and Matthew 24.

      For further reading about who will attack Jerusalem, thus filling part of “all these things,” see Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39; Daniel chapter 11-12:1 and chapter 9. Also Rev 16: 13-16. Some of the verses speak about God regarthering the Jewish people, and bring about a new Jewish nation from Jews dispersed among nations before this attack. That already materialized with the re-established Israel in 1946.The rest hasn’t, not in the first century and not since.

    • March 13, 2019 at 8:25 pm

      Final point: Luke 21 : 24, a quote of Christ, destroys your argument that centers around all the scriptures you shared. Jerusalem would have to be trampled down by the nations.
      Not one just by one nation. And when Christ lived only one nation (Rome) ruled over everyone those people recognized. The Jewish people would have to be dispersed among the nations due to this trampling by nations, and finally they would have to be regathered, before Christ knew he would return to rule the world. Certainly he didn’t expect all that to happen within a 50 year timespan that YOU claim he said he would return in. He never said that.

      • March 15, 2019 at 1:26 am

        Well thank you for attributing the words Jesus spoke to me, messenger. I’m really flattered. And thank you also for once again exposing the bible for what it is in the way it is a total mess and can’t make it’s mind up. What I say is fair and reasonable and so is what you say. If this was a book of truth produced by a perfect god (but needing help from imperfect humans who messed it up while a sagely nodding god looked on ) this sort of thing would be impossible.
        You do know the reason ISIS were hell bent on creating a caliphate was because their teachings told them god would arrive if they did, right? Thats what you call a self fulfilling prophesy.Do you know the history of the fight to create Israel after the Holocaust? It wasn’t just handed to them. It could easily be argued that was a self fulfilling prophesy as well.
        And speaking of perfect, if we were created as gods very special toys, our bodies would be absolutely perfect in every way.
        If we evolved, our bodies would not be perfect because evolution is not perfect.
        Are our bodies perfect? Hows your lower back after standing upright all these years with a spine designed to be on all fours?

  • March 13, 2019 at 8:29 pm

    Sorry, messenger. Politicians words.

    Why is the bible abundantly clear except when it’s not. All this politician speak from churches is designed to stop people giving up and leaving the church hierarchy without a job. Where else would they go? They’re not usually trained for anything else.

    It’s all about power, nothing else.

    ‘Near, ‘soon’ and ‘coming quickly’ is what the bible says on the matter.

    And where is the proof that the kid born in the manger is the guy who got strung up on the cross. Are we to believe that Jesus went from being born as the son of god, creator of everything, to age 36 without amassing hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of followers all eager to at least see or touch him. Human nature says thats impossible. Are we to believe remarks such as “look, Dad, who’s that guy over there?” ‘”oh thats only Jesus, son of god, creator of everything. Just ignore him and get back to tending those goats”. Nope! Wouldn’t happen like that. There should be accounts of nearly every breath Jesus took and those accounts should be larger than the bible itself. And woman should have been just hanging off the guy like flies.

    The Virgin birth is a myth created to avoid infinite regression.

    Noah’s Ark is a myth.

  • March 16, 2019 at 7:10 pm

    I wish the WT success in its lawsuits. You need to get permission for everything you quote from the rights & permissions department of the publisher. There is a copy of a page from a 1997 WT article on this web page. That has to be an infringement. I doubt that you got permission. When I checked JW.org for my own reasons, the only use I saw that was permitted was links to their web site. Most publishers will let you copy copyrighted material if you pay. But I didn’t see this on JW.org. Did a lawyer advise this web site that it can get away with this?

    • March 17, 2019 at 11:58 am

      If your literature contains truth, what are you worried about? Seems hypocritical to me. Imagine Jesus saying don’t spread the Gospel because I am the copyright owner.

      • March 18, 2019 at 7:54 am

        Andrew, the reality is that people are sued for using Bible translations without getting permission from the publisher. They are sued for copying translations of Jesus’s words without permission. The World English Bible was translated largely for that reason. Please read the FAQ on the World English Bible, especially under the heading “Why is the copyright such a big deal?” You can find that Bible at ebible.org.


      • March 18, 2019 at 4:04 pm

        Please look up the World English Bible online. Read the FAQ called “Why is the copyright such a big deal?”

    • March 17, 2019 at 11:52 pm

      And there you have it; this is just a publishing Co & that is why JWs are referd to as publishers 1st & Christians 2nd.[ Christians that denigrate Christ @ every opportunity.

      • March 18, 2019 at 2:23 pm

        I think exprimisset’s arse just got owned.

        • March 18, 2019 at 3:57 pm

          JW Suicides, please translate your sentence into standard English. I know you are being vulgar, but I don’t know what you mean. There is some truth to what Graham said. But Andrew Edwards doesn’t understand the way the Biblical world really works. I tried to answer but I couldn’t remember how to post correctly. People are charged, and sued if necessary, when they copy TRANSLATIONS of Jesus’s words. Look at the FAQ for the World English Bible. The question is “Why is the copyright such a big deal?”

      • March 18, 2019 at 4:55 pm

        There is probably some truth to what you say about being publishers 1st, especially the WTB&TS and the hierarchy. I was looking up information about copyright registration for myself and stumbled on an interesting web site, danscartoons.com. Copyright law is similar for drawings and for literature. His web site will give you insight into the thinking of publishers. He has a section called “Cartoon Copyright Information”. He looks for infringers, he finds them, and they pay.

  • March 17, 2019 at 6:38 pm

    Andrew Edwards exprimisset voiced a valid point about following the legality of copyright infringement laws. Whether the poster is correct about what those laws are I don’t know. Your comment about what Christ did has nothing to do with whether the action is legal or not. But my guess is Christ would have followed the law.

    Several years ago there were some famous JW musicians and one none JW, if I remember correctly the non-Witness was Celine Dion. Prince, George Benson and Sly Stone’s old bass guitarist who sung the hit One In A Million as a solo artist were among the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Anyway this group recorded a number of WT Kingdom songs, and I know that recording was distributed because I heard it. Once it was distributed it was legally considered published, whether that group was selling it or giving it away. Anyway WT got wind of that and in response I heard WT demanded the group cease distribution of their recordings of Kingdom Songs, because, and here is the kicker, so that WT could retain the legal rights to own its published materials.

    See there are legal laws that insure if a person or corporation does not enforce certain legal rights then they will lose the ability to enforce those rights in the future. Some of those laws in the United States are named, waiver, release, sometimes combined as waiver and release, and promissory estoppel.

    You see most people in ignorance believe a written agreement is what defines the legal rights between parties in court hearings. That’s not true. The presence or absence of how parties do or don’t enforce legal rights they hold because of contract provisions holds president over terms written in agreements. So let’s say there is no written contract. There could be an implied oral contract as binding as a written one once actions or inaction of parties involved are triggered by some interaction between both parties about the disputed issue that eventually ends up in court.

  • March 23, 2019 at 1:15 pm

    Excellently written article John.

  • March 24, 2019 at 6:58 pm

    It’s cute that watchtower wants to force FB to comply with subpoenas, when they themselves DO NOT, opting to pay daily to avoid having to turn over subpoenaed documents relating to child molestation.

    What vile excuses for human beings.

  • March 24, 2019 at 7:22 pm

    I would like clarification of the statement in the article: “Most copyrights however are not registered officially with the United States Copyright Office.”
    The jw.org web site Terms of Use has sections called “Copyright” and “Terms of Use and License to Use Web Site”. They say that unless otherwise indicated, everything on the web site is the intellectual property of the WT. Everybody at JWSurvey should read the “You May Not”‘s. Also read the “Breach of Terms of Use”. The Online Library has WT’s going back to 1950. You are saying that they don’t register with the Library of Congress. How can I confirm that? What does it matter, anyway, since they assert copyright and since they threaten to take legal action. They can easily prove authorship. Is the article claiming that they can’t successfully use the legal system, even though they say they can? I think they can. They can pay the $800 fee for expedited processing of the registration:


  • March 24, 2019 at 10:08 pm


    To register publications with the federal copyright office copies of the publications must be submitted and proper forms filled out. The federal office will have to retain copies of those publications as proof the registered party registered those. As I understand it all of that can be done online. But can you imagine WT doing that with everything it publishes? That’s very unlikely.

    Anyway registered copyrights do not prove the party that registered them authored them. As it’s possible someone else could steal something you create and register it, claiming they authored it.

    As I understand it for United States courts to accept a lawsuit concerning copyright infringements the items must be registered with the Library of Congress United States Copyright Office. The issue might get really tricky with Lloyd, because the United States’ copyright laws are national laws, not international laws.

    Some countries will honor USA federal copyright laws, and others don’t. If you live in the USA you might be aware of the great number of Chinese companies that duplicate American logos, trademarks, and popular selling products that they then sell around the world as products from the real companies, the true products, not the knock off inferior products those are. There might also be some laws that are unique to posting on the Internet.

    To reiterate my answer to your question as to why much of the material is not registered? Probably there is too much of it, and WT chooses not to for that reason.

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