After running JWsurvey for more than two years, the time has finally come to share my story.
Why has it taken so long? Because when I first set up this website I was still technically a Witness – constantly in fear of reprisals from my family or my local elders if my true identity was ever discovered.
Now, after much discussion and soul-searching, my wife and I have both made the decision to part ways with the organization – regardless of how our Witness family responds.
There are multiple reasons for this huge leap, the main one being that my wife is pregnant. Both of us refuse to raise our child in a religion we know to be false, or to allow any of our relatives to attempt this with the excuse that we are still Witnesses – which would be the case if we remained inactive.
Taking this stand has come at considerable cost – a cost imposed on us by Watchtower. We have yet to hand in formal letters of disassociation, but we have let our family know gradually over the last few weeks. This has resulted in a considerable backlash.
On my side of the family in particular I have been subjected to insults and character assassinations – attempts to call my motives into question and frame me as “selfish” simply for acting on my convictions, and standing up for my own beliefs.
My father (who is an elder) hasn’t been abusive, but he has reaffirmed that he will be shunning us the moment things become official. We spent a few days vacation together in picturesque Northern Croatia before I sat him down and attempted to explain my position.
After I revealed the information on the UN/NGO scandal to Dad by showing him newspaper articles from 2001, he was initially nauseous and didn’t want to hear any more. A day later he told me he refuses to hear my side of the argument, and will be shunning me once things are official. In his mind there is no contradiction that he will be spending his time trying to persuade people of other faiths to challenge their convictions, while refusing to hold his own beliefs to even the slightest scrutiny.
It has been deeply hurtful and distressing for me to witness my own father, who I deeply love, surrender his reason and common sense with so little struggle – especially with so much at stake. It is still more distressing that I am being blamed for any shunning that ensues even though these are Watchtower’s rules, not mine. After all, I am happy to have a relationship with all of my Witness relatives no matter what they believe.
The more I observe the utter refusal of certain family members to even listen to my reasons, and hold me to a decision I made when I was 11, the more obvious it is that I am escaping a manipulative cult where independent thinking is ruthlessly crushed and loved ones are considered expendable wherever loyalty to the Governing Body is concerned.
You may well ask what brought me to this stage, and how I came to doubt my beliefs in the first place? I am writing a book on this at the moment, but I will do my best to present a summary of my story in this article.
***When this article was written, I still felt the need to keep my real name secret due to concerns over my family. Since then I have decided to be open about my real name, which is Lloyd Evans, but I will continue writing under the moniker “John Cedars” since that is the name so many people know me by.***
An unconventional upbringing
I was born in Manchester, England, in 1979 and raised in Wilmslow, which used to be a quiet leafy village in the suburbs, but is now a wealthy neighborhood known for its celebrity residents – mostly footballers and their wives.
I had an upbringing in which Armageddon was very much a real event that could strike at any moment.
One evening, our family worship featured an “Armageddon drill.” My father received what turned out to be a fake phone call telling him that the Great Tribulation was upon us. My family was to hurry to join the brothers and sisters at the local kingdom hall, because we would all be heading off to Macclesfield Forest to make our escape from the authorities under Satan’s control.
I remember running upstairs and frantically stuffing various items in my rucksack, including a recently released book called Revelation – It’s Grand Climax At Hand incase I somehow needed it. In that moment I was convinced I was witnessing the end of the system of things.
It was only when I came downstairs and saw the smiles on the faces of my parents and sister that I realised the joke was on me.
I was baptized in December 1990, age 11. I remember my mother crying at my baptism. In the years that followed I did my best to make my parents proud by being an exemplary Witness youth.
My parents were not as strict as others in our congregation, so they encouraged me to go to college after high school. I studied art for two years. Even so, it wasn’t long before I felt the pull of pioneering, in no way diminished by the constant pressure from the platform for young ones to pursue full-time service as a “career.” I started regular pioneering in September 1998 – the same month that I was announced as a ministerial servant. I had just turned 19.
The following year I experienced my first “crisis of conscience” when the Daniel book (or Pay Attention To Daniel’s Prophecy) was released at the “God’s Prophetic Word” District Convention. I remember being initially very excited. I felt I would be able to relate to it more than the Revelation Climax book, which by now seemed crazy and garish to me. I took my copy of the Daniel book home and read it quickly.
As I devoured its convoluted reflections on bible prophecy, feelings of disappointment slowly overcame me. I encountered various explanations of scripture that simply did not add up. For example, how could the Roman Empire become Anglo-America in one prophecy, but become Nazi Germany (an enemy of Anglo-America) in another? Should there not be some kind of consistency in God’s inspired word?
The more I dwelled on this and other issues, the more I suspected that the Governing Body was simply making things up as they were going along – “shoe-horning” scriptures to fit historical events.
My doubts eventually came to the attention of my Presiding Overseer after my ministry partner snitched on me. He took me aside one afternoon while on field service, listened to my issues for a while, and then said: “Listen, I just want to know one thing. Do you believe in 1914, or not?”
When I said that yes, I believed in 1914, he said, “Well that’s all that matters!” – and our conversation was over. After this bizarre exchange, I pressed ahead with my progress as a Witness, but always with niggling doubts in the far reaches of my mind.
A life-changing tragedy
Then in 2001 my world collapsed when my mother died of breast cancer. I was 21 at the time. Mum first fell ill in 1999 but received treatment, including a mastectomy, which forced her cancer into remission. But it resurfaced a year later and consumed her very quickly, despite aggressive chemotherapy. On May 9th 2001, Mum’s doctor gave her three weeks to three months to live. She passed away 12 days later while we were on our final family holiday in Cornwall.
Mum’s death forced me to push any lingering doubts as far back in my mind as I possibly could and soldier on with my “career” in the organization. After all, serving Jehovah loyally was my one and only chance of being reunited with her in the resurrection. I couldn’t let her down.
When I was 22 I began applying to attend MTS (now the “Bible School for Single Brothers”). I was finally accepted at the age of 25, and attended the 29th Class in Britain at the Assembly Hall in Dudley. I was thrilled and extremely proud, not least because by going through the course I was fulfilling one of my Mum’s dying wishes.
Mum had told me in one of our final conversations that in the resurrection she wanted to see a video of my MTS graduation. She didn’t know that the filming of graduations is prohibited by the organization, but simply by going and graduating I knew I would be meeting her expectations. I would film what I could while I was there, just in case.
Attending MTS was a mostly uplifting and enjoyable experience. What I most appreciated was the camaraderie and friendships with guys my age from all over the UK and parts of Europe. It felt as though there were little or no distinctions between students who were ministerial servants (like me) and students who were elders. We were all sharing the same experience together as those seeking to learn.
During the course there were one or two moments that made me stop and ponder, such as during one class when our instructor told us to put a line through some words in one of our volumes of Insight on the Scriptures. Apparently this change was required because of “new light” since these books were published.
The words we were asked to delete can still be plainly seen on current versions of Watchtower Library. I thought to myself at the time, “If these words are so wrong that we are being asked to delete them, shouldn’t ALL Witnesses receive similar instructions for their Insight Volumes?”
After two months the class came to an end, and I graduated along with 21 others. My Dad, sister, and some of my close friends came along to what proved to be an emotional graduation ceremony. I was interviewed and asked to relate my experiences leading up to the course, including the death of my mother and the fact that I had quit my job in order to attend.
At the end of the graduation I joined my classmates in singing an acoustic rendition of “Life Without End At Last” with my guitar. The audience erupted in applause. It felt like I had reached the pinnacle of my achievements within the organization. I was determined to put my training to good use.
A year after my MTS, I flew out to Croatia for a reunion with a number of my classmates. One student, named Miroslav,* invited us to spend some time with his congregation in Sisak, about an hour’s drive south from Zagreb.
It was in Sisak that I met my future wife, who was pioneering at the time. After a few months of getting to know each other through emails and phone calls she agreed to move to the UK so that we could pursue our relationship.
Six months after her arrival I proposed to her with a cheap silver ring (all I could afford as a poor pioneer!) on a row-boat in the middle of a windswept lake in the Lake District. She accepted, although later joked that she only said “yes” because she wanted to get off the boat!
We were married in the summer of 2007 on the Croatian coast, and honeymooned in Venice, Switzerland and Paris on our drive home to the UK. On our return, we resumed pioneering together in the same congregation.
We began married life living in a small basement flat in a rough part of Stockport. The sound of police sirens screeching through the night formed the soundtrack to most of our evenings. Looking back it was an inauspicious start to our new life together, but it was all we could afford as pioneers on part-time wages. In fact we couldn’t afford even that, because we soon started to slide into debt.
The call to elderhood, and the anti-climax
In April 2008 I was thrilled to be appointed as an elder. I felt as though I could finally put my MTS training to full use, and take a more active role in helping people. I already loved giving talks, but it was the shepherding side that I was really looking forward to. I was anxious to help people with their problems in any way I could.
But it wasn’t long before reality started to sink in, and I began to see what being an elder was really all about. I soon discovered that elder bodies are intensely political, easily manipulated by strong personalities, and that elders are most definitely not appointed by holy spirit as Watchtower so often claims.
Our congregation had a particularly thuggish Presiding Overseer (now known as a Coordinator) who seemed to delight in bullying the brothers and making their lives miserable. He would think nothing of counselling a brother who bought a new Range Rover on being too materialistic, or imposing arbitrary rules on a teenage boy not to socialize with a young sister he liked.
When I did my best to correct this bully elder’s overbearing behavior in the only way I could think of, I was chastised for going about it in the wrong manner. I was kept as an elder, but stripped of certain privileges, including my pioneer status.
My wife also had her pioneer status removed at this time, even though she had nothing to do with my elder issues. I was told that, since both of us had been failing to meet our hour requirement, I was to break the news to my wife that she too was no longer a pioneer.
And so, after eight years of selfless full-time service for the organization in two different countries, my wife was unceremoniously sacked as a pioneer through her husband without so much as a “thank you.”
My lowest point
But these troubles were soon to pale into insignificance when my wife made a heartbreaking discovery. She learned that, though I hadn’t cheated on her, I had been fraternizing with girls on the internet in ways that I shouldn’t have done as a married man. I had a big issue with cyber sex and pornography, which I had developed as a teenager, and which remained with me even into my marriage.
I am not proud of my actions, and to this day I grimace at what I put my wife through. She has never been anything but loyal and loving, and it saddens me that I hurt her by betraying her trust so early in our marriage.
I also feel it was hypocritical of me to accept an appointment as an elder with the aim of helping others and offering spiritual guidance when I had so many issues of my own to contend with. I was living a double life and being dishonest with people.
Even so, I can’t help but consider these actions to be very much a by-product of sexual repression in my formative years. In particular, I think of the difficulties I had in finding a marriage partner from a narrow pool of Witness girls, and the unscriptural Watchtower injunctions designed to induce guilt over masturbation.
Of course, I accept responsibility for my actions and I do not blame Watchtower for everything. After all, plenty of Witnesses seem to develop into well-balanced adults without these problems.
But my wife and I both now realise that sexual repression in my upbringing was a major factor. It forced me into finding ways of satisfying my natural sexual urges as a virgin without intercourse so as to remain “morally clean,” and this led to an unhealthy dependency on the internet and pornography.
Once my wife discovered my problem we had a number of emotional exchanges. Decisions needed to be made. My first instinct was to sweep things under the rug and work things out between us, but in the end I decided to stand down as an elder and move back to the congregation I had grown up in to receive discipline.
Apart from anything else I knew I wouldn’t get a fair trial from the bully elder, who would doubtless want to make sure I suffered further for daring to question him. This matter involved my wife and I, and not him – so I chose to receive my punishment from elders I felt I could rely on to be impartial.
I wrote an exhaustive confession in a letter and posted it through the letter box of my new Coordinator. Before long I was summoned to a Judicial Committee and made to relive everything I had done in excruciating detail, despite my signed confession which had already explained everything.
At one point I remember being reduced to tears. By the end of it all, it was decided that I should be reproved and not disfellowshipped. However, my reproof was to be publicly announced both in my new and former congregations to make it clear that I had done wrong during my time as an elder.
A fresh start
Around this time my wife and I agreed that we needed a fresh start, so we decided to move to live with her parents in Croatia. Our years spent pioneering had left us with very little money and a mountain of debt, but we at least had an opportunity to build an apartment for ourselves without worrying about rent or mortgage payments.
And so we packed up our belongings and made the move across Europe to Croatia in the summer of 2009. At the time I recall being determined to restore my spirituality, and maybe even work my way back to serving as an elder again eventually.
For the first few months in my new congregation I continued under the restrictions from my reproof in the UK, meaning that I couldn’t answer up at meetings or participate in any talks on the Theocratic Ministry School.
I was reduced to being a mere observer at meetings that I could scarcely understand due to the language barrier. I knew a few words of Croatian, but certainly not enough to follow closely what was being said.
Before long, something unexpected happened. My identity as a Witness disintegrated as I could feel myself being unplugged from the indoctrination. For the first time I began to ask myself, “What do I truly believe?”
I recalled my doubts about the Daniel book from when I was 20. I found I was able to add a number of other issues and teachings that I could no longer agree with. Eventually I sat down and wrote a list of nine “grievances.” When I looked at the list, it was obvious to me that I was now only a Witness in name only. There were just too many things wrong with the organization for it to be the “truth.”
Eventually my restrictions were lifted and I began giving Bible readings in Croatian on the school meetings. Elders would give me encouragement, leaving me with the impression that I would be re-appointed before too long if I just put forth a little effort. But by this time it was too late. I was already waking up.
Then one day in May 2011, after pouring out my feelings to my wife, I decided to declare myself inactive. I felt I needed to let my Dad know of my decision by telephone. I recall him being heartbroken. I broke down in tears once I had finished talking to him. No son relishes the idea of being viewed as a failure by his father.
I wrote a letter to my elders briefly explaining my reasons for being inactive. In hindsight, I realise that my elders could have very easily taken this as a letter of disassociation and severed me from the organization there and then, but for some reason they didn’t want to do this. At least, not to begin with.
Stalling the inquisition
Two elders visited and we had a long and tearful discussion. I explained that I would still be attending memorials each year (to keep my family happy, in my mind) but that I could no longer go preaching when I had so many doubts. They chose to respect this, so I assumed that would be the end of it.
Around this time a new elder joined our congregation from Zagreb bethel, and he soon learned of my inactivity. He decided he didn’t like the way things had been handled, and convinced himself that there must be more to my decision than I was letting on.
This elder pulled my wife to one side at the end of one meeting and interrogated her in the back room, asking questions about my behavior and quizzing her as to our business affairs. My wife and I run a small business, and he and others had come up with a theory that I was staying on as a Witness just so I could exploit Witnesses when handing out work.
All of this happened at roughly the time I finished reading Crisis of Conscience and learned of the 1980 witch hunt against the likes of Raymond Franz and Nestor Kuilan. It felt very much like my elders had me in their sights in the same way, and were determined to disfellowship me on any pretext – real or imagined. All they needed now was a chance to grill me for information having failed to get anything from my wife.
I received a phone call from an elder asking to arrange a visit, but I told him in no uncertain terms that they had broken the rules by interrogating my wife without me being present, and I would therefore not be cooperating with any attempts to offer me “help” until I received a full apology.
Predictably the apology never came, and I was finally left alone. If there was one thing I knew I could rely on, it was the pride of elders and their tendency to deny doing anything wrong. This uneasy stand-off gave me the freedom I needed to explore my new reality without being immediately separated from my family.
The birth of JWsurvey
As things settled and I grew accustomed to my new life as a “fader” I continued to trawl the internet for information. JWfacts.com in particular was a real eye-opener. It was on Paul Grundy’s site that I learned of the UN/NGO scandal, Rutherford’s letter to Hitler, and the Mexico/Malawi scandal. Barbara Anderson’s website also informed me on the complexities of the child abuse issue, and how Watchtower is causing real harm in that regard. Everything began to fall into place.
The more I learned, the more I wanted to share. I was also curious as to how many others like me were out there. I began thinking of ways to poll such ones for their opinions so that people could see at a glance what the consensus was among thinking Witnesses.
Then one day I proposed setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I began experimenting with ways of making this a reality. I thought it would cost a lot of money to set up, but an Ex-JW web developer and writer called John Hoyle came to my rescue completely out of the blue. He contacted me and essentially said, “If you want I can build you a website that can host your survey, and you won’t need to pay me anything for it.”
At first I thought it was impossible for a complete stranger to be so kind and make such an offer with no thought of payment, but I figured I had nothing to lose in accepting. Before long, JWsurvey.org was launched. The rest, as they say, is history.
A reason to take a stand
Fast forward two years or so, and yesterday I found myself attending a hospital appointment with my wife, who is three months into her pregnancy. This was our first opportunity to see our first baby in the womb by means of an ultrasound.
As the grainy images came up on the screen, I was overwhelmed with emotion. I could see our baby’s heart pumping in its chest. I could see its legs folded buddha-like beneath it. I could even see its fingers as its hands were raised almost covering its alien-like face.
The thought occurred to me, “I will love this person unconditionally its whole life, no matter what it thinks, says or does. I will never allow myself to be separated from it, no matter what happens.”
Unlike me, this child will be taught only proven facts – not religious dogma designed to reinforce the unquestioned control of an elite group of deluded theocrats who insulate themselves from even the mildest criticism.
There will be no “Armageddon drills.” There will be no fear, guilt, or paranoia. There will be only love and acceptance. My child will have all the opportunities I never had as a youngster – including the chance to build a life for itself doing and believing whatever it chooses, with my support.
Yes, my Witness family is bitterly disappointed in me. Yes, they view me as a traitor. But there is nothing I can do about that other than to build my own family, free of such rifts and divisions. Though this is proving traumatic for me, I cannot live the rest of my life bending over backwards to conform to the expectations of my indoctrinated forebears.
They may prefer for me to remain inactive, trapped in some sadistic vow of silence so that the mother organization can continue to wreak havoc undisturbed. But I refuse to tacitly bend my knee to Watchtower for a moment longer. A stand must be taken. A line must be drawn.
After all these articles it is high time for me to talk with my feet – especially with my child’s future at stake. Yes, fading is a great option if you can stay quiet and pull it off, and I support those who handle matters in that way. But if you are an activist like myself with something to say about Watchtower and the means to say it, you will find it increasingly difficult to keep it going for too long before something has to give.
The journey continues
I know many of you reading my story will be disappointed at my personal failings, but please understand that I am only human and never set myself up as a role model or spiritual guru for anyone. I am interested only in exposing the scandals and falsehoods of an organization that claims to represent God as honestly and journalistically as possible.
I have not the faintest interest in drawing off followers, preaching alternative doctrines or telling people how to live their lives. I am interested only in revealing the truth about Watchtower, and I feel my experiences within the organization, both good and bad, put me in a great position to do this.
Nothing I write should be considered as beyond question – in fact I am happy to receive criticisms and make changes to articles if needed. I am committed to using my energies to join with other more seasoned campaigners in informing the world about what I view as a damaging cult, which I see tearing my own family apart and threatening countless others.
To all those who have sent messages of support and solidarity over the past few days via Facebook and email, I give my heartfelt gratitude. It is not easy to make this stand. I have shed more than a few tears, but I know what I am doing is right.
By going through this pain now I am sparing future generations from the same problems. I want to give my child a life free from fear and indoctrination, with the opportunity to explore this amazing thing called life without the shackles of ignorance and servitude. I can think of no finer legacy to pass on.
*Miroslav has recently been disfellowshipped for apostasy. On his facebook profile, he identifies himself as a follower of the Bible Students.
Translations: Romanian | …
Related video…
The rapture Paul was referring to was not of a physical nature. He never espoused that one would have to be raptured to receive salvation from the eschaton of Jerusalem. Your lack of scriptural knowledge is showing a ineffectual attempt to prove your argument.
I have changed nothing. Lack of a blood transfusion, refused through cruel JW indoctrination, has led to no end of deaths. The JW bosses are interested only in control. They may or may not be deliberately murderous, but are certainly heartless. It is utterly ingenuous, however, for you, JW Dialectic, to make a case for any JW interest in medical improvement. For that perverse outfit, the whole world outside their control. including the vast majority of the medical profession, is about to receive its deserved death sentence at the hands of Jehovah, its fantasy hitman. And yes, I know JWs do not believe in the rapture for all that it is in the Bible. But they binned Hellfire as well, despite the regular warnings about its being the fate of unbelievers.
Then it is time, surely, that if the JW deoctrines are not ‘set in stone’, then the phrase ‘In the Truth’, is utterly misleading. Surely JWs would be approaching some sort of honesty were they to declare themselves ‘In the ideas being kicked around by a few old guys in New York State just now’.
@Rowland
You betray your lack of intimate knowledge with not only Jehovah’s witnesses, but also with scriptural knowledge in general. Where are these denunciations against improvement to medical treatment you allude to? Also, I have never run across any warnings in the bible that tell of burning eternally in hellfire as being a punishment for the wicked. In fact Romans 6:23 clearly says that the only penalty for sin is death. No where is it mentioned that God would torment anyone eternally for practicing sin.
I presume you can still read this for all that you can no longer comment. I never accused the JWs of denouncing medical improvement. I simply said that medial improvement, in their weltanschaung, is an irrelevance. For JWs, improvement can only come via Armageddon when the the whole medical establishment will become irrelevant as the greater part of humanity is murdered by your Jehovah monster, in order that a disease and death free Paradise can be ushered in. As to Jesus and Hellfire, take a read of this: http://www.usbible.com/Jesus/hellfire_jesus.htm
@Sue
Thank you for your post from Bromley. I can absolutely accept that as an observation of Jehovah’s Witnesses from a sociological standpoint. However, no where in Bromley’s comments have you provided anything that would paint jw’s as a dangerous or destructive cult. However, his and others observations about those who have apostatized from any religious organization are quite accurate in relation to the atrocity stories that are being disseminated on this site. Particularly the story of Cedars himself. That is why I posted the information in the first place. In order to give a well documented professional opinion on the overall stance of not only the founder of this site, but also those who contribute on the forums. If you don’t agree with the assessment, no one is saying that you cannot disagree.
Really Cedars?? You hve banned someone for putting forth not only a logical argument, but one based on the bible? I don’t think you banned him for anything other than destroying your weak attempts at twisting scripture. I know we’ll get the “I worked too hard on this site and writing these stories to allow apologists to post here” argument. But yet out of the other side of your mouth you will claim arrogance and intolerance from Jehovah’s witnesses for not being more open minded and listening to differing viewpoints. Very, very hypocritical to say the least. And you also put words in Dialectics mouth. No where in his posts did I see him call anyone “pathetic”.
I guess you cant argue against the Fuhrer.
Oh dear LogicalAnswer, now I’m Hitler? Really? Well you’re a troll, and have been blocked accordingly.
FYI – My comment about JWDialectic was a reference to his following words to Rowland Nelken: “Your attempt to skew the events are pathetic.” I apologize if I could have been more clear, but I won’t apologize for keeping this website clear of those like yourself and him who insist on doing Watchtower’s work for them and urging visitors to this site to abandon their critical thinking abilities.
In friday I send letter of my resignation from Watchtower religion. Now I am free at last, free at last, thank God almighty I’m free at last.
Congratulations. It’s good to be free!
JwDialectic – Over many years ‘improvements’ were made to the hanging of people, through the science of basic physics, to make it more humane. Does this justify the killing of thousands, of often innocents, to achieve a better knowledge of the procedure?
I am not a JW but my mother was and before I was born the doctors warned her that there was a chance that I may be a “blue-baby” and would need a blood transfusion. She told them she wouldn’t allow that, and often bragged about how she had stood up to those doctors who “knew nothing”. (Well they’d wasted all those years on education, what can you expect?).
Thankfully, for me, but not my mother, she would have loved to have sacrificed me and passed the test, I was ok (stupid doctors, who needs ’em). I’m not
bitter or exaggerating or imagining this. I knew my mother and her passion for her religion, and she would have let me die. Maybe the doctors were wrong, but this was over 50 years ago, and they were right at that time.
My brother and his wife are both JW, and nearly 10 years ago they lost a beautiful, golden 25 year-old son in a car accident. A blood transfusion may have saved him, but he refused, and he wasn’t even a practicing witness, just brought up as one, but as all those out there know, the fear never really leaves you, so he made a ‘death-bed conversion’, and his father, my broken-hearted brother,
said he was proud of his son for refusing blood. After the trauma of his beloved son’s death, my brother sank into a deep depression. Then he started going back to meetings
and is now more fervent than ever he was before. Ironically he was never the strongest, not elder material because he often locked horns with them; he resents being told how to live his life. But he’s buckling under now and trying to convince himself, more than anybody else, that he’s in the ‘Truth’. He has to, to justify the loss of his precious son, but I know he’s always had his doubts because he has a curious mind, like me. But now he’s caught in the perfect trap and it breaks my heart, because I want to hug him to comfort him, and scream the real truth to him all at the same time, but I can’t, and although I would love to see the Watchtower come down, I dread what it might do to my brother and his wife. I think it might utterly destroy them.
There are thousands of stories like this. A young JW mother of twins, who was quite local to me, needed blood after giving birth but she refused and died.
I’d like to hear you explain to two motherless children what a boon the WT has been to modern medicine.
This one arbitrary doctrine, plucked out of the bible in 1945 and misused in a murderous fashion, should be enough alone to finish the WT.
And to LogicalAnswer: Apart from this minor issue and one or two others, I think your experts are right, these
apostates are just embittered drop-outs trying to make themselves feel better about themselves in a totally selfish, self-serving vindictive way. If only the authorities would shut them up and let those nice God-fearing people
carry on with their harmless little religion. After all they’re not hurting anyone, are they?
One of my pet hates is over-generalisation and sweeping statements. Sure the profs. with their dry theories, are right about a lot of things, but life and people are a lot more complex than they suggest; you can’t stick a label onto any group, apostate or not. Any religion, government, whatever, that wields power over the lives of people must have detractors in whatever form they may come. If they have nothing to hide what do they have to fear?
And of course apostates will come from within, just as all the most vociferous dissidents do. Who else would be bothered?
TWBTS is the North Korea of religions. The similarities are
erie. Thank goodness for the internet and people like Cedars and Paul Grundy who are working so hard to free those who are oppressed by this joyless, totalitarian regime that starves its people of all the natural pleasures
and rights of being human…………. And hurts, and kills.
JWDialectic – you may want to put your defense against taking blood on hold, because the Wt and JW’s in the USA DO take blood–at least components and in some circumstances, whole blood. I leave it for you to find counter evidence.
Cedars
Congratulations again, and I like your video in response to (New Light).
Great video, Cedars, but allow me to stuff the “Way Back Machine” and take JWDial and all on a little hop back to 1798 AD. Keep yer seat belts buckled, it’s going to be a bumpy ride as we hopscotch through the 1800’s and stop at all the proposed end-of-the-world dates that led up to the outright statement that the world ends in 1914 AD.
LogicalAnswer,
You probably will not see this as your trolling as been stopped, but nevertheless, I will make a comment. If you looked at the links, I posted about JW’s and the quote, the info was inaccurate and out of date. But if you want to hold onto to such sources, thats your choice. If you like sociologists, how about Voas who suggests “a reason for the stagnation may be that there is a natural limit to the number of people in a given population that are susceptible to conversion to sectarian groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses”. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/172862/1/British-Sociologist-Predicts-Possible-Collapse-in-Jehovahs-Witness-Numbers#.UonPspE9fFI
http://www.manchester.ac.uk/research/voas/publications
Also, cults. I really have no interest in whether JW’s are considered a cult or not. Given the definitions here, they do seem to fit however.
http://www.religio.de/cudef.html
I think the most potentially damaging part of the belief system is what it does to families. My daughter (36) told me yesterday that at 11 years old she was told by her grandmother, not to speak to me (her mother), as this would “aid” me in going back. My daughter’s father an elder, has not spoken to his daughter in about 20 years. Rather than “aid” anything, any idiot can see that being uncaring and unloving, is just that. On the other hand, we do know how to love and have healed ourselves from the JW abuse. In the last week or so, since I have been commenting on here, I have been reminded of the JW need to control and be right. In the last 25 years (I have been out 30 years) I have hardly thought about JW’s. I want to reassure people, that life after JW’s is and can be fabulous. What went before does not need to determine, your future.
The contortions these JWs apologists will indulge in to try and convince themselves (for they persuade nobody else) that there is some truth in JW TRUTH, is quite pathetic.
Never mind the 2 witness rule, dug out of the Book of Deuteronomy for no other reason than to protect pedophiles, they have even claimed to be on the side of advances in medicine when it comes to the murderous blood issue.
To be a medical practitioner takes education. JWs sneer at education. How many potential medics has society lost because young people were persuaded to be unpaid mag. distributors instead? A phrase I remember from my distant JW childhood was’ We’re not here to patch up the Old World – we belong to the New’. This fantasy New World will need no blood related nor any other type of medicine, so for JWs to declare that their murderous blood stance is progressive and noble as it has advanced the cause of blood free surgery, is utterly ingenuous.
One of the apologists with a bogus name also bigged up ‘academic’ sociologists. No chance of being an academic of any sort if you have been force fed JW anti education drivel and thus forced to survive on a window washer’s wage. This blog is well rid of JW apologist nonsense. None of the true believers contributed anything beyond irrelevant distraction.
may jehovah forgive him and i believe one day he will come back to his senses and then come back to the truth.
Please define ‘truth’. There is truth in its commonly accepted sense of facts which applies to facts, objectively verifiable through evidence and testing of hypotheses. This, however, is a JW forum. JWs, as we know define many words differently from the wider community and ‘truth’ is a principal one that has suffered from the Watchtower treatment. In the WTBTS context, ‘truth’ means anything and everything dreamed up and disseminated by a bunch of old men in New York State. Is your ‘truth’ Big, one of the above style of ‘truths’, or a different one altogether?
it is not an encouraging story. May Jehovah forgive you cedar , i hope you will soon realize the wrong steps you took and then come back to Jehovah.
Hello Big,
I am sure that you are sincere in wishing Cedars and all of us to come back to “the truth”.
Thank you for caring enough to visit this site and comment.
As a previous poster has said, the problem we all have is that we have serious reservations about Jehovah’s Witnesses possessing the truth.
I would urge you to read Cedars’ responses to Logical Answer above, on the topic of child abuse in the WTBTS.
This alone is enough for me to eschew coming back to the WTBTS. In addition, there are many beliefs that Jehovah’s Witnesses hold that I cannot abide by.
There are many articles on this site and I would encourage you to read them, and then carefully check all the information provided. If Cedars has made a mistake, he will gladly correct it.
I have no quarrel with the rank and file membership of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do, however, have serious doubts as to the competency and morality of the Governing Body.
I believe that they are mistaken in some of their beliefs. I believe that they need to reconsider their actions, in humble consideration of the fruitage of their choices. I sincerely hope that they will change their minds on various topics.
Cedars works very hard to bring problems to the attention of right thinking ones of any or no religion. His goal is to improve the WTBTS if at all possible. He is not out to draw away followers or impose his own moral judgement on others.
Thank you again, for your sincere contribution.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
An observation, this appeal to emotion versus logic is a stark contrast to the early attempts by JW’s and Wt pubs to recall ‘strays’ [a reference to the sheep symbolism evoked by the Wt literature] wherein an appeal was made to the urgency of the times–the signs of the times–and the nearness of the end.
Since Big is on this website, I will avoid an attack on the posting, because they are here to learn. Another observation, when Big says “return to Jehovah” and “return to the truth” it is without a frame of reference regarding where these “theological” ideas derived. For instance, are Jehovah’s Witnesses(JW’s) first and alone in preaching that the soul dies at death? No. Are JW’s first and alone in spreading “god’s message” — gospel? No. Are JW’s first and alone in believing that Babylon the Great has fallen? No. Are JWs first and alone in believing no part of the world applied to abstaining from war? No. Are JW’s first and alone in believing in the imminent return of Christ? No. Are JW’s first and alone in naming their meeting places “halls”? No. Are JW’s the first and alone in rejecting the Trinity? No. Are JW’s the first and alone in writing statements regarding future events that seemingly are (or by interpretative review) fulfilled? No.
There is substantial evidence that the basic theology of JW’s was discovered by various Methodist, and Stone-Campbell, itinerant ministers during the early 1800’s and mid-1800’s. In fact, while it is known that none of these early bible students sought to form formal religious groups, the environment — the start of the Civil War and the divisions among Adventism — led to formalized structure required to gain government exemptions from war and to distinguish from competing Adventist groups–seventh or second–and from Christadelphian groups. While JW beliefs have morphed and added various twists to distinguish from competing groups that believe the same basic tenets, the origins and the focus of beliefs remains essentially, Christadelphian and Adventist.
What I have learned over the years of continuing research is that most of the early founders of these ideas that molded and mentored CTRussell and adherents derived were strong-willed ministers who proposed their discoveries to established churches which reviewed and declined to embrace their theology. At which point, most of these strong-willed ministers began to proclaim their inspiration and viewpoints as “the gospel” eventually insisting that those who did not believe their unique discoveries and messages were “walking in darkness” and “part of Babylon” [ref: Charles Fitch, Henry A Grew, Dr. Josiah Litch, George Storrs].
So, what we have here is belief system squarely based on male ego (and in some cases feminine ego).
Come back to Jehovah, eh Big? If there is a God, it has nothing to do with the WT Jehovah monster. That mass murdering figment of a warped imagination is nothing more than a control tool for a bunch of self righteous, self serving and self appointed old geezers in New York State who run a corrupt global property and publishing corporation.
I believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the best religion, yes.
My reasons in no particular order:
*They don’t participate in politics and don’t urge each other to “vote” for anything in particular- they are politically neutral.
*They don’t fight in wars. They are peace-loving people.
*They are simple people who do not strive for prominence in the world (like the Apostles and Jesus himself)
*They believe the final authority is the Bible- God’s word- not a man’s word.
*They strive to cultivate the fruits of the spirit (especially love)
*They are honest in their efforts to understand the Bible and have changed their beliefs accordingly
*They provide help for their brothers and sisters worldwide when disasters occur.
*They preach the good news.
*They are not nationalistic- they believe that no particular nation is directed by God and that God doesn’t choose sides in war.
*They keep clean congregations by reproof and expelling if a person is unrepentant.
*They teach a paradise in a restored earth for the majority of humankind.
These are reasons that I believe Jehovah’s Witnesses are the best religion. To my knowledge, no other religion fulfills these above mentioned principles.
Is this Genesis guy serious or simply a windup? Surely he must know that every one of his ‘reasons’ for supporting the JWs does not stand up to scrutiny.
Here goes, anyway, just in case this Genesis actually means what he writes, a quick demolition of the sitting targets he has just now lined up.
1. JWs enjoy all the benefits provided by whatever govt. they happen to live under, but make no contribution whatever. That is not a virtue.
2. JWs central obsession is looking forward to the Battle of Armageddon when their fantasy Jehovah is set to murder all who do not act and think like them. That is not a love of peace. That is an unhealthy lust for mega violence.
3. Many JWs strive for prominence in their congregations and the organisation at large. For those who reach the top, and get to the Governing Body, there is power that exists nowhere else on earth. With their mastery of the dark arts of cult mind control they have convinced their followers that they are God’s appointed. Mediaeval Popes would envy their absolute ‘divinely issued’ power.
4. The Gov. Bod. and its take on the Bible are the final authority for JWs. That is why their Bible studies are conducted, not with Bibles, but with Watchtower publications.
5. Shunning those who choose to disagree is not an expression of love, quite the opposite. They preach conditional love. Members are to be loved only while they accept the dictatorship of mind and life of the Gov. Bod.
6. Their conditional love is exemplified when disasters occur. Help is only offered to fellow JWs. Charitable contributions to the wider world are forbidden on pain of Armageddon execution. ‘Brothers and Sisters’ in JW speak means not the brotherhood of man, merely the brotherhood of JW thinkalikes.
7. I was raised as a JW. Their ‘Good News’ about a 20th century Armageddon gave me nightmares. JW news is an obscenity.
8. They may not be nationalistic, but their un-evidenced and ludicrous claim that their little breakaway Adventist Protestant sect in Christendom is uniquely chosen and directed by God, is the source of untold misery.
9. They protect pedophiles in their congregations. They expel those who merely question JW doctrine.
10. Their fantasy Paradise Earth is not for the majority of humankind, merely for JWs who obey, to the letter, every ever changing diktat issued by the JW bosses.
Thanks for telling your story and for everything else you do. I left the WT almost two years ago. It’s really having an impact on my marriage.
By the way, I visited Croatia recently. What a beautiful country! The people also were so nice.
You’re an inspiration my friend…that was a heartwarming read and I wish nothing but great things for you. We are FREE…..enjoy!!
There is little reason to be ashamed of your past. I understand that because of your wife’s indoctrination she took the revelation especially hard. Though cyber sex can be inappropriate depending on what has been agreed upon with your significant other, there is nothing wrong with pornography. In fact, watching pornography with your partner can be a fun and informative experience. It is sad what sexual repression can do to an individual and its effects on relationships even into adulthood.
We need to use forums like this to let others know that masturbation and pornography are okay. The most important element of a sexual relationship is open communication along with trust and respect.
“There are none so blind as those who do not want to see”. There are so many who fit into the categories you list, (several of them my relatives) but yet put on sanctimonious faces and shun those of us who do not want to live a lie and so are no longer enslaved to this Cult.
Great video and you have a most great website!!!!
I translated the article into Romanian and published it here: http://martorii-lui-iehova.ro/experiente/john-cedars/
Thanks Caminante, I’ve put your link at the foot of the article!
If there are any other translations out their guys, please let me know.
The blacklist of Fuhrer Cedars becomes longer and longer. As his example he tries to destroy Jehovah’s people. Satan will be very happy with his activities and his immoral lifestyle. He has been fraternizing with girls on the internet in ways that he shouldn’t have done as a married man. He had a big issue with cyber sex and pornography. Good to know. That is the real reason he lost the truth! And that is the man who is ctriticizing, lying, slandering and bashing the devote brothers of the Faithful and Disreet Slave!
Only a Governing Body brownshirt could type such a desperate, judgmental, hate-strewn comment. Wasn’t it Jesus who is claimed to have said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” I assume therefore, sir, that you have never provoked your loins while looking at an image, moving or otherwise, of a naked woman (or man)? I’ll spare you the need to answer that question, not least because I doubt you would want to.
As to the “real reason” for leaving the organization, that was simply because I realized it holds absolutely no claim to its self-proclaimed title of “the truth” (as you optimistically refer to it). If Watchtower really was “the truth,” and if an organization that so gleefully scrutinizes the morality of others had a clean bill of moral health itself, I would have gone back to being an elder (as I was encouraged to do) and never had cause to open my heart about my struggles on this blog to the whole world, both the decent and the judgmental, at the risk of being goaded by condescending cretins such as your good self.
As to lying and slandering, you run the risk of exposing yourself as a hypocrite unless you can cite a single piece of my published information that is untruthful or fraudulent. You have my email address. I invite you to send through a list of any places in which I have lied or deceived on this blog. Since you seem more of a hit-and-run, cower-behind-the-spiritual-mother type than an earnest champion of truth, I won’t be holding my breath.
Fuhrers dictate and love to strut about and control empires. Cedars is the opposite. He expresses his opinions, backed up where necessary with references and facts, and invites commentary, pro, anti and indifferent. He has stated quite categorically that he has no wish to start a new movement, religious or otherwise, of his own.
Contrast this with the Watchtower Gov. Bod. They claim, with zero evidence, that they are God’s exclusive earthly rep., and threaten with imminent Armageddon murder, anyone who dares challenge any of their pronouncements or diktats.
Their commands that ‘apostates’ must be shunned by friends and family means that many who have come to realise that as JWs, they are nothing more than unpaid mag. distributors for a corrupt global property and publishing corporation, fear to leave the JW outfit as they will bereft of family and friends.
The Fuhrer title fits the WT Gov. Bod. It is totally inappropriate for Cedars.
The 21stCentury Fuhrer is living in Croatia. In World War II Croatia was the best friend of the 20th Century Fuhrer. A Coincidence?
Wow, so now I’m THE 21st Century Fuhrer? I take it Kim Jong Un, Bashar Assad and Osama Bin Laden don’t even get a place on the podium if a mentally diseased apostate is in the fray? Amazing.
Keep up the good work, White Blossom,
Any curious onlooker will be turned off the JW cult straightway, on viewing the tragic mindset of its adherents.
Here’ to your awakening, recovery and escape. (Unless, of course, you feel that being an unpaid mag. distributor for a bunch of geezers in New York who care nothing about you is really a decent way of life!)
White Blossom
You just made yourself look stupid with such comments. I just fell about laughing at your comment. The good news is that Cedars is balanced and this kind of stupidity rebounds upon you and confirms just how ignorant JW’s and their defenders really are.
Have a lovely day and peace be with you.
White Blossom,
Yes, it is a coincidence, just in case you were worried.
I pity you, I really do.
I had some great jokes set up, but I don’t want to be rude about you. You are a human being and I want to show you respect.
You see, as an atheist apostate, I have a very sound grasp on the concepts of mercy and compassion.
I really feel sorry for you. To make the connection between one of the most evil men in history, and a young man who has sacrificed much to bring facts about “the truth” to light, is a sign of someone who needs to be treated kindly.
I sincerely hope that you read the articles on this site, and consider them carefully. I also sincerely hope that you will come to realise that your arguments are not correct, and the organisation you are defending is not there for you, but that you are there for it.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
By cowardly banning all the posters who dont’t agree with him, Cedars is proving and demonstrating he is the champion of freedom of thought and expression!!!
Why is he so afraid for the comments of people who disagree with him? His black list is the same as the practice of disfellowshippimg.
He is an important instrument Satan is using. By starting this website he has a terrible responsibility. Jesus said: “But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me it would better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea” Matthew 18:6
Hello flower, welcome to JWsurvey – a sanctuary for calm, rational and respectful debate away from the Sauron-like glare of Watchtower.
I don’t ban all posters who don’t agree with me. I ban people who contravene the posting guidelines of JWsurvey. I wish I could say I am surprised to find that people who disagree with me, people who find it necessary to defend Watchtower, and people who are angry and abusive always seem to coalesce. Unfortunately, however, it’s all too predictable.
Let me give you an example. Your first post on this website could have been as follows…
“Hello everyone, and nice to meet you all. Forgive me if I sound terse, but it strikes me that anyone who disagrees with Cedars gets banned. Could Cedars comment on this? Respectfully yours, flower.”
I would have been obliged to respond to the above and hopefully a calm, reasoned dialogue would have ensued.
Instead, we get something more like this…
“Cedars is cowardly banning all the posters who don’t agree with him… [insert sarcasm here]… His practice of stopping people from commenting on a website is just as bad if not worse than Watchtower’s practice of tearing loved ones apart and severing family ties… He is obviously an important instrument of Satan, and will find himself punished terribly by God for stumbling people at some future date…”
As grateful as I am to you for both asking why I ban people and demonstrating the answer to that question in one stroke, I do have better things to do than indulge deluded people who believe they are speaking for God ad infinitum. I’m afraid to say, therefore, that we won’t be hearing from you again, at least on these pages.
I hope you continue to enjoy JWsurvey if only in a more limited role as a spectator rather than a participant.
Respectfully yours, Cedars.
hey flower,
I think you need to read more comments on this site. When Cedars blocks a troll, can they still speak to their family? JW’s tell their blind followers not to speak to their family. My 6 year old daughter was told by my mother not to speak to me so I would go back. Well 30 years later, and with many changes in doctrine, I am happy to say my daughter has a fab life and so do I, unlike the depressed, sad family members who hang on to the cult.
I sincerely hope you wake up soon and not waste your life in delusion.
Flower,
Wow! Banning someone from commenting on this site is in no way akin to disfellowshipping.
By judging Cedars as you have, you have definitely added to the stumbling that I have suffered from both yours and others behaviour.
I’m am atheist, so I don’t believe that Jesus is up there in heaven, but you do. And yet you still completely fail to follow Jesus’ commands. He told you not to judge, and yet you are judging Cedars! You believe that Jesus is up the right now and you really believe he wants you to leave posts and emails of this nature? Seriously?
I think you need to go read your gospels again, I really do. You will find that it is your behaviour that needs to change, not Cedars’.
I think that Jesus would be very proud of the selfless work that many “apostates” continue to do to help folks understand that the WTBTS is corrupt and wrong.
Stop stumbling Jesus’ little sheep!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
I have a couple of questions.
Besides fraternizing with girls on the internet, having a big issue with cyber sex and pornography, have you also beat up your wife? Did it happened once or several times? I hope you have now stopped with this non-christian behavior.
Were there any other parts of the article you wished to comment on or ask about, or are you one of a curious minority of individuals who finds it productive and/or pleasurable to fixate on the sexual deviancy of others and the pressing need to pass judgment on the same?
And no, I’ve never laid a finger on my wife in anger. How dare you suggest I would simply to try to besmirch my character.
Hey Cedars,
I greatly enjoyed reading your account and could relate to so very much. I was also a born-in and took things very seriously for a long time. I didn’t take the counsel to heart about avoiding “deep study” and came to see so many inconsistencies in the religion and its teachings that I finally came to a point of just not being able to even appear to live it anymore. I am in the process of writing my own story that I can perhaps share with you at a future time.
I also commend your excellent writing and grammar. Just one thing, the title to the “Revelation” book contains an error of an incorrectly inserted apostrophe.
Break of Dawn,
It is no business of yours how many times Cedars did anything.
How dare you accuse Cedars of domestic violence. Where did you pluck that from? It’s a despicable thing to do. I guess you were hoping that any filth you threw would stick?
Too bad, we operate on facts on this site.
I believe you owe Mr Cedars an apology.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Break of Dawn,
Who among us has not committed sin?
How much courage do you think it takes to bare your soul and confess in detail the nature of your sin? Cedars did not have to reveal these details in this article.
That he chose to include those details, tells me that he is a responsible, honorable, and honest person.
We each have our own temptations to deal with every day of our lives. It is easy to say “I would never do that!” when you are not being tempted. Even if we decide beforehand what our actions would be, none of us truly knows our own treacherous heart until the very moment we are faced with real temptation.
Judgement of Cedars is not our job nor our right. In Matthew 22: 36 – 40, Jesus commands us to “Love your neighbor as yourself”.
May you find how to love yourself. After you do that, then you will be able to love your neighbor.
Calling JW’s a cult is not name calling. It’s the simple “truth”of what they are. In 1975, a few months before I was to be baptized, I found that my wife had fallen for a young “elder”. Since the system was definitely ending that year I was “told” to forget college or children. (I was previously “told” to marry my girlfriend also , though that obviously didn’t turn out well) My parents were inactive and therefore “influenced by demons”. I was lucky to escape this madness though it had a large negative effect on my life. Now, at age 61, I look back and marvel at my gross gullibility. Good for you– and be proud of your honesty and your great courage. Your kids will thank you for it some day.
I have no longer been associated with the JWs since 1965 when I was converted to Christ in a Baptist church in Liverpool, England. I am now a retired Anglican minister living in the Dover area and have been having fruitful discussions with JWs in the neighbourhood. Thank you for your survey which is proving so helpful.
I remember coming home to my mother sobbing because she found out my brother had a “worldly girlfriend.” I stopped loving my brother at that point. I remember much later my mom told me that when my brother moved out, they found out he had a stack of porn under his bed, and how ashamed I was of him. My boyfriend at age 18 once confided in me that he sometimes “masturbated,” and I felt he had shared some deep, dark secret with me that made him a little bit dangerous and wicked. While dating the man who would become my first husband, he touched me inappropriately, and I felt so ashamed that I went ahead and married him despite feeling doubts that he was right for me, because I felt I had to in order to please God.
Now I look back on all of this, and think how much sorrow could have been avoided if only we were allowed to be the humans we are. Even my little parakeet masturbated against his perch. If it was so wrong, why did God make it natural for animals to do?
I was raised to fear humanity. I never knew unconditional love, because I knew that it was possible (and apparently rather easy) do something that would cause me to lose love.
I am so happy now to find out how beautiful humanity really is, in all its flaws. So many good people everywhere, people that I once would have feared. And I remember the moment I discovered that someone could love me despite anything I could possibly do. How shocked I was to find out that existed!
Life is sooooo good out here.
I’ve just discovered your site today! After 22 years of being away from the watchtower, I can finally speak up. The things taking place are evidence of the lack of God’s spirit and blessing. I feel compelled to tell my story, and am in the process of writing it. Can you suggest a publisher? Is there a place on your site for people to give their experiences? Thanking you in advance~aka~sally
Hi Sally, welcome to JWsurvey! I’m so glad you find it helpful.
We would be interested to hear your story. If you send it through to us (using the email address on our contact page) we will take a look at it and consider assigning you a writer for a blog post. But I’m afraid we can’t make any promises due to the huge amount of information we are trying to sort through. If nothing else, we should be able to point you in the right direction so your story gets heard. :)