On Wednesday evening something very rare and unexpected happened. I had a phone conversation with Anthony Morris III – a Governing Body member (and one of Advocate magazine’s Craziest Right-Wing Conspiracy Theorists of 2014).
As almost anyone outside of Watchtower headquarters will tell you – having a tete-a-tete with one seventh of the faithful and discreet slave is not something that happens every day.
But on this occasion, the odds were slightly more in my favor. I was armed with inside information from a reliable source who gave detailed instructions on how and when to get through.
Before the call I had tried a few times to get hold of various people in Watchtower HQ, with mixed success. The bethelite who screens PR spokesperson J.R. Brown’s calls did a masterful job of deflecting my request for a response on the Rama Singh misquote. I also had a nice chat with the bethelite responsible for the “Happy at Bethel” video, which will remain private because he was actually a really nice guy.
When it came time to try and get through to Tony, I had in mind that if I succeeded I would pretend to be someone else – at least for the first few moments of the phone call. Being open about my true identity from the beginning would almost certainly not result in a conversation of any significant length.
And so I concocted a humorous scenario in which I would be “Brother Cedars” – a newbie bethelite calling from the Brooklyn laundry room, and asking what should be done if tight pants or yoga pants are discovered among bethelite clothing. (If you don’t get the joke, click here.)
Tony was cordial, good-humored and polite, and took the call in good spirits. He quickly figured out that my cover story was a ruse, and after some light banter he set about trying to find out who I was. For the majority of our 2 minute, 20 second conversation he seemed under the impression that I was a high-spirited bethelite. Almost as soon as he realized I wasn’t an admirer, he put the receiver down.
Shortly after making this call I posted the obligatory video to YouTube, which clocked up 3,700 views in the first 24 hours. There was a huge reaction from viewers – the majority of which was positive. Many exJWs seem to have derived vicarious pleasure from hearing me tell a Governing Body member directly that I think he is deluded.
Some have questioned the wisdom of insulting Tony when, having come so far in getting through to him, a conversation seemed on the cards. But from the moment he discovered I wasn’t a bethelite, I knew I was on borrowed time. And I wanted any conversation with him to be on a frank and honest footing. Calling him deluded was NOT an invitation on my part for him to end the call – I was more than willing for him to challenge me on why I said that.
Others have suggested I should have kept my “bethelite” rouse going for longer so that I could elicit more information. However, that scale of deception is not in my nature. My aim from the beginning was to get my foot through the door and then be open with who I was as quickly as possible.
If, once the inevitable barrage of questions about my identity came, I had added yet more layers to my subterfuge, the accusations that I was living up to the lying, deceptive apostate stereotype would have been inevitable and deserved.
Still others have said I was “juvenile” and that my prank call represents a “wasted opportunity” to confront a Governing Body member with tough, meaningful questions on serious issues. Well, I make no secret that I have a juvenile streak in me, and I actually think humor is one of the most effective weapons against cults. If there is one thing cults hate, it is to be laughed at.
And I invite anyone under similar circumstances to see how many probing questions on shunning, child abuse or blood transfusions a Governing Body member will listen to before taking the easy way out.
I am not saying for a moment that my phonecall couldn’t have gone better. I am my own worst critic over this sort of thing, and can conceive of any number of ways I could have made more of the opportunity. Hindsight, after all, is a marvelous thing. But I can also easily envision the phonecall going much worse, and ending far more abruptly.
Despite drawing the ire of a few armchair activists, I feel my phone call was quite productive. It showed any JWs (or still-indoctrinated exJWs) who listen to it that a Governing Body member will readily be flippant about ‘bible counsel’ he expects ordinary JWs to treat with deadly seriousness.
You can imagine how a devout sister who has not long since thrown out all her yoga pants and husband’s tight trousers would feel listening to this conversation. For those on a tight budget who actually have to pay for their own clothes, these petty, capricious injunctions are no laughing matter.
But perhaps more importantly, my phone conversation with Tony reveals his unvarnished human side. He is not some saintly, mystical guru with a hotline to heaven, but a fairly ordinary old man who just so happens to be a spiritual overlord to 8 million doting followers.
Well, I say 8 million. Tony will have left this conversation under no illusions that not even everyone under the rooftops of Brooklyn bethel truly believe him to be anything special. And if he hadn’t figured that out before this incident, he certainly should have. You cannot claim the unquestioned, uniform loyalty of a group of people who you are threatening with cruel, immoral punishment if they dare to walk away.
As to whether there will be any more conversations with Governing Body members – I am sure this will be more problematic in the wake of my intrusion. But that needn’t stop me from trying.
Many thanks to Vincent Deporter for supplying artwork for this article!
For an Italian translation of the conversation, please click here.
I forgot the cartoon it’s even more funny !:-)
Humor is spice of life ! smile :-)
We want to thank brother Cedars and brother TTP-TM3 for there parts tonight. As you know brothers, talk #3 can now be assigned to an elder and he can pick his setting and his helper.
Brother Cedars you were working on study point #7 from our b-e TMS book, “Principal Ideas Emphasized” on page 105, under the drop box, “Why is it important” reminds us, ‘your message will be easier to remember if the principal ideas are emphasied’. . . You did an awesome approach and capture your householder’s attention. You kept him on the edge of his tight pants.
You delivered 3 points for us to glean from;
1.) Message
2.). Method
3.). Reason
and Brother Cedars, you ace all these points. Also too, I want to commend you on our application on how well you implemented our monthly theme from our KM “Improving Our Skills in the Ministry – Responding to an Irate householder” under bullet point, “how to do it”, . . maintain a calm and friendly demeanor. This will help defuse the situation. Do not take the householder’s reaction personally.
We thank you Brother Cedars and Brother TTP-TM3 for your assignments and we look forward to your next talk. You will be working on study point #26, . . ” Logical Development of Material” taken from page 170.
Brothers and Sisters, did we not have an uplifting meeting tonight? and to conclude the meeting let’s sing a new song to our creator and King Jehovah, song number 137, title,
” Grant Us Boldness”. . .
Several things happen that night with TTP-TM3;
1.) he had to pray for us,
2.). requesting blessing to all,
3.). requesting forgiveness for all,
4.). requesting holy spirit to all,
5.). love and peace to all,
6.). seeking personal forgiveness
7.). seeking humility – to be a better person.
8.). tighten up phone security
9.). keep close tabs on Brother Cedars
10.) I can’t belived I got punked.
Brother Cedars, we look forward to your next talk. . . .
@minion you’re funny minion .I like your sense of humor !
It appears to me he was just laughing because he was trying to put the pieces together. How often would he get a call from someone from the laundry or any department? Most Bethelites are probably told to follow particular paths for queries they may have that never lead them to a GB member so I’m thinking he was shocked from the word go. That’s all. Just pure shock that a lowly subordinate was approaching for advice on laundry. That he laughed later I think can be attributed to nerves. I must say, though this was funny, with more planning around the conversation, this could have been a great opportunity to convey his mindset to the readers. At the same time, kudos for giving it a shot. I daresay many have tried and failed to get even as far as you did!
Bet there is a new position opening. Someone to answer his phone.
Actually, thinking on it more you can tell quite a bit about this particular GB member:
1. When Brother Cedars ;) got through and introduced himself, AM III didn’t greet him back. He merely said “uh-huh”. I speculate this cool response was because old Anthony never gets a call from the dungeons and he ain’t too all approachable.
2. Once the ruse is up, AMIII goes on the prowl for details. “What’s your name again?” Oh, now he is interested. “Where are you from? Walkill?” Apparently, AMIII planned on having this brother tracked down and spoken to about calling him directly.
Reasonably compelling evidence that the GB aren’t used to rank and file speaking to them, particularly about mundane things.
And just think that AMIII has EVERYTHING done for him. Laundry, meals, transport. And the Happy @ Bethel video shows he’s got his own dentist along with other Bethelites and no doubt doctor. He DEFINITELY has his own army of lawyers. This guy is in hog heaven and you’re not allowed in “Brother Cedars”!
@Cedars
I’m interested in what these ex-JW’s are like! I thought that we have all left because the Watchtower Org is obviously a made-up, mind-controlling, ‘don’t-look-at-the-man-behind-the-curtain’ group of judgemental dumb-dumbs that have misled us and stolen both our time and our money. Fascinating that there are ones who have left that have any kind of reverence left for these guys. I asked a recently disfellowshipped friend of mine, “Why do you care what judgement they have passed on you?!? Who cares?!?” It is so easy to free your mind!!!
There are people out there that are critiquing you for being childish with Tony Morris??? I dream of an International Convention when the audience showers Tony Morris with their shoes!!!
These anointed-imposters deserve to be stripped of their wealth and paraded in the streets with rotten vegetables hurled at them!
I wouldn’t go that far JJ. Shoes can be expensive…
What’s wrong “with juvenile” is that it’s counter-productive.
Your suggestion that I have any “latent fear and ingrained reverence of these men” is completely unfounded and vaguely insulting.
My comments are my own and have nothing to do with the JWN crowd.
I find it disappointing that your response to my post is to attack me rather than consider my comments for what they are worth. I have always been a supporter of yours. In this one instance I disagree with your methods.
Oubliette
I’m not attacking you. I am just challenging your opinion, as you are challenging mine. I apologize if I have said something offensive or insulting, but I struggle to recall that I have.
You still haven’t explained why being juvenile with a member of the Governing Body is “counter-productive.”
Lloyd shared a call with all of us that he was able to make to one of the Governing Body. I am glad he shared it with us and not kept it to himself even if it was “juvenile” as he himself admits. (What’s wrong with kicking back and acting like a kid once in a while anyway)???
Once he got Tony on the phone, what was he to do, tell tell him something he wanted to hear or tell him the truth? That took tremendous courage to say what he did and it was far from “juvenile”.
He posted this prank call on the 5th of February and today it’s the 8th of February and right now it’s had 6,535 views with 327 likes and only 10 dislikes.
I’d say this video is a hit and going viral. That says an awful lot because of only a few dislikes. Why is it going viral with only a few dislikes? If it was “juvenile”, I don’t care. It’s getting a lot of attention and only a few dislikes and that’s what counts.
Cedars,
This is the only forum I’ve ever been on where people actually appologise to each other.
It’s actually quite sweet and refreshing where people are genuinely concerned about other people’s feeling.
I’m not enlisting any form of sarcasm or belligerence in this comment in case anyone takes it the wrong way :-)
Cedars –
Love your mischievous call to TPT! We all need a smile.
I know this isn’t funny, but I’ve just read that Peter Sutcliffe, the serial killer, has been baptised as a JW in Broadmoor. (Daily Mail 20 hours ago).
I guess Anthony would love to receive a telephone call from him now, welcoming him as a ‘brother’.
As for all of us who are no longer a part of ‘the lie’, we need to be avoided, shunned and not spoken to.
It’s a crazy JW World isn’t it? Thank goodness I won’t have to give this new brother a welcoming hug and kiss.
Wow Lloyd, seem to be taking some heat on this one. For what it’s worth I have a great deal of respect for you and others that honestly and openly confront this organization. The information you provide is invaluable. I wish I had more of an activist streak myself, I guess I keep quiet for a few family members and one old friend. Something that surprised me is I was a little nervous for you when you got Tony Morris on the phone. Isn’t that silly? You have reached further in and out of the organization than I ever did, I am sure you saw first hand what motivates the people at the top (money). As far as being juvenile, you look like a young man to me and I think your entitled to it. I sincerely want to thank you for all the hard work and thought you put into your website.
I thought the conversation went well. Okay it could of gone so differently … For me the point I picked up on was ” I’m one of your biggest fans ” – he made no attempt to address that (f & d , s ) He wasn’t showing he was faithful , discreet , nor a slave !!!
He outlined himself as being deluded, – an own goal
I loved it! I don’t see anything wrong with juvenile and a good laugh is always welcome. I don’t know how anyone can take this seriously anyway. The belief system of the JWs is beyond ridiculous. I get a real sense of the old JW “don’t stumble” anyone with the criticism of this prank. It’s not as if Cedars was ever going to get a confession out of him anyway. None of us is responsible for another’s waking up. If a person is having serious doubts and something like this would stop them they were not going to make it anyway. Not everyone is equipped to have their whole world crumble.
You just know AM had a mini meltdown after getting called delusional. I am pretty sure he is used to getting his butt kissed.
As well as the already outs I am sure this will be popular with the teenagers still stuck inside. They are the real victims here. I’m not so concerned about a bunch of narcissistic adults playing a game.
Although Lloyd Evans has been receiving some less than flattering publicity recently from fellow Ex JWs about what they perceive to be his prickly nature and anathematic contempt toward criticism (see Youtube), I can’t help but feel that this prank proves to be a tremendous right-hook in the face of his many critics. Utter juvenility aside, he made some truly powerful arguments (veiled though they were) about yogapants and tight trousers, and the God given and inherent liberties Of us all to wear precisely what we like without regard for the feelings of others. The deluded comment was just the icing on the Ex-JW Christmas cake for me. Keep up the laudible efforts.
I think that the main thing this video underlines is how utterly incapable members of the GB are of debating with or facing up to people who they do not have some kind of hold over.
Tony could have stood his ground and made a courageous defence for “The Truth” and the “Faithful Slave.” Instead, he puts the phone down as fast as he can.
Very similar to their recent performance in the Gonzalo Campos trial. They didn’t even have the spine to face open court. They can throw their weight around for a captive audience who are under threat of shunning should they disagree, but as soon as they encounter someone on a level playing field, they scurry away.
Intellectual cowards of the highest order.
Also: Nice one, Mr Cedars. You see this? This is me buying you a drink.
@CovertSpiff
Exactly correct!
Great comments!
Sam Harris wrote an article and had a corresponding video that relates well to what you are saying about the Governing Body. It was a video of an older Japanese martial arts expert that could defeat any number of his own followers using some kind of invisible power. This master became so deluded that he believed he actually did have amazing powers. He took on a challenger who did not ‘believe in him’ and it was actually hard to watch as this old man got severely beaten on the mat. Sam Harris was using this video Ito illustrate how religious leaders seem to have great powers to their followers but have absolutely nothing over non-believers. It appears to be a common trait of every religion, cult or faith-based group.
@Cedars
Brother Cedars, your next Service Meeting talk will be about the life and fast times at WT of TTP-TM3.
Rumor has it the WT magz 5-15-15 has the write up. However, the web site has not released it. . .?. ?
If this is true, then we look forward to your next service talk!
Tic tock tic tock,
.
Agreed on all points. I would add that the chuckling was to put our imaginary “laundry servant brother” at ease so as to find out his identity – then have him prayed over, greasing him with oil (reassign him to a place “where the need is great!”)
Impressive that you kept your composure for so long. I mean, saying the words ‘yoga pants’ to Anthony Morris would have instantly resulted in fits of laughter on my part.
On a more serious note: it was disappointing that he hung up. I know he isn’t used to being challenged on anything. But as a ‘Christian’ leader, he should embrace these questions. He could have used it as an opportunity of some kind to have a meaningful dialogue. Oh well.
Good stuff, Cedars. Very interesting.
@Tuxedo Joe. Just an observation on your comment. I don’t remember Cedar’s comment was meant to be put on Cedar’s most funny home videos. The goal was to just get through to a Governing Body member and tell that man an honest observation about his stupid tight pants comments and Cedars was surprised that he got through and he had his camera going to record it if he got through and he was surprised he even got through and it showed on his face. Big deal, the expression on his face.
You make the comment that you aren’t supporting the Society so are you on their side? Do you support the Society? If not, would you have the courage to confront them like Cedars did in a phone call and make an honest comment about how stupid their comments could be taken by the public or do you look at the Governing Body as “above” the rank and file and above making a disparaging comment to them as if they deserve more respect than the average rank and file member?
If you think these guys are “untouchable” you are giving them the impression that they are better than any other brother in the organization. We all are supposed to be able to take criticism aren’t we? Think about the Ministry School? If we all can take criticism, then they should be able to take it too. Nobody dares to do that to them? Why is that? Aren’t they supposed to be the “slave”? Or are they the “master” or are they the man behind the curtain like in the Wizard of Oz, just blowing a lot of hot air and pretending to be something they aren’t?
What did these guys ever do to deserve that kind of adulation and respect? At least with the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church elects a new Pope, the Cardinals all get together and they vote on a new Pope. Sometimes it takes several days. It’s not a set-up, where there’s just the the one Pope and he gets to select his next “successor” as he sees fit from his buddies and this next guy gets to rule over 800 million people who don’t have to answer to anybody about anything and the and file have to follow every stupid order they come up with or get kicked out with not a friend in the world left to them, or suck it up and pretend like it’s the “truth” when they know the new pope is a walking idiot.
These guys set themselves up in their little Kingdom and nobody even questions it. Why is that? The only difference is that instead of having just the one Pope like the Catholic Church, there’s seven “Popes” but they get to chose who their next Pope is going to be amongst their buddies. Nobody else has any say in the matter.
The Bible says that pride goes before the fall. That means that prideful people will be brought down by Jehovah. Are these people prideful? Jehovah hates prideful people. That is why Nebuchadnezzar ate grass like a bull for 7 years until he learned humility. A humble man won’t hang up when they are called on the carpet for making a stupid comment. A humble man would have asked why Cedars made that comment and learned from it.
I know if anybody called me on the phone and called me on the carpet for a comment that I made that they thought was stupid and deluded, I wouldn’t hang up on them. I would have tried to make it right. That is what Jesus said at Matthew 20:24-27 “When the ten others heard of this, they became indignant at the two brothers. But Jesus, calling them to him, said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you, but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.”
The Watchtower is clever in putting in the literature how we (rank and file) must be “obedient” to the “slave” but you must remember that in the July 2013 Study Watchtower, the Watchtower admitted that Jesus hasn’t “come” yet and won’t until the Great Tribulation and it’s then that Jesus will say “good and faithful slave” you have done a good job and now I will appoint you over all my belongings. The Great Tribulation hasn’t come yet and Jesus hasn’t pronounced the “slave” good and faithful yet so all they (Watchtower) are is a publishing company that spews out tons of literature who gets it’s rank and file to supply free labor in the guise of “saving’ people at Armageddon but it’s up to Jesus to say who is good and faithful. It isn’t up to them.
They deserve no respect from us because they put themselves in the place of Jesus in pronouncing themselves good and faithful. They mock the Bible. They deserve no respect. As a matter of fact, they put themselves in a very dangerous position with God if they actually do believe in God at all.
@Tuxedo Joe. YOU ARE MEAN SPIRITED in YOUR COMMENTs about Cedars. How much money,Time & Energy HAVE YOU Expended in Exposing this FRAUDULENT ORGANISATION ???? Tuxedo Joe YOU SOUND LIKE A COWBOY !!!! Those of us who have LOST LOVED ONES because of Shunning& DISFELLOWSHIPPING because of disagreement on Doctrine which has CHANGED CONSTANTLY from when we Said YES to those Baptismal Questions … WE ALL APPRECIATE what CEDARS WEBSITE has Done in providing a Place where we can discuss HOW WE ALL FEEL !!! So TUXEDO JOE GO & CRAWL BACK INTO YOUR HOLE !!!
“If I was you, I’d stick to the mean-spirited, obsessive articles.”
Thanks for identifying yourself as a fan of Tony and Co. I wouldn’t expect someone in your position to have much of a sense of humor about prank-calling a spokesperson of the Almighty.
@Anonymous .Thank you for Eloquently putting Tuxedo Joe Right about a Few Things…I am WORKING on Tactfulness at the MOment in the THEOCRATIC Ministry School & USE Of CAPITALS !! I keep Getting a ‘W’ from the Ministry School Overseer ! I CANNOT for the LIFE of Me WHY??? Then again I have only been working on it for 33 Years!!
@Pickled brain, I feel sorry for people like Tuxedo Joe. You could tell them that Anthony Morris the 3rd likes to kill baby kittens and feed them to his pet snake back in his million dollar apartment and owns 10 Rolex watches and it wouldn’t sink into them, just what a perverted religion they belong to. They are to be pitied.
@Anonymous . I AM SURE Anthony Morris EATS HAMSTERS for Breakfast & is the REINCARNATED POL POT of Cambodia who Slaughtered 2 Million people I know Anthony is POTTY because he thinks 7 BILLION Men ,WOMEN,CHILDREN & BABIES will be DESTROYED at ARMAGEDDON !
@Pickled brain, like the God they worship, they are very much like Pol Pot. This is he kind of destruction that Jehovah’s Witnesses gleefully look forward to.
Psalms 137:9: “Happy will be that grabs ahold and does dash to pieces your children against the craig.” (This is what would happen to Babylon)
Jeremiah 13:14: “And I will dash them one against another, both the fathers and the sons, at the same time, is the utterance of Jehovah. “I shall show no compassion, nor feel any sorrow and I shall not have the mercy to keep from bringing them to ruin.”
Or how about Jeremiah 51:22,23: “And by you I will dash man and woman to pieces, and by you I will dash old man and boy to pieces, and by you I will dash young man and virgin to pieces and by you I will dash shepherd and his drove to pieces, and by you I will dash farmer and his span (of animals) to pieces, and by you I will dash governors and deputy rulers to pieces.”
Or how about Isaiah 13:15,16: “Every one that is found and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.”
Or how about 2nd Kings 15:16: “Menahem proceeded to strike down Tiphsah and all that was in it and it’s territory out from Tirzah, because it did not open up, and he went striking it down. All it’s pregnant women he ripped up.”
Or how about Hosea 13:16: “Samaria will be held guilty, for she is actually rebellious against her God. Their own children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women themselves will be ripped up.”
Please don’t compare the 7 dwarfs(in mind and heart)
to the Pope. The Catholic church has a history of corruption
at the top, although not always, but the middle and bottom
are responsible for all the major missionary activities world
wide since the beginning of Christianity, and to the present. No other group
has done more for humankind, plus the preaching of the
doctrine of Christ worldwide. It is apostolic. They put
together the Bible canon and for over 1,500 years they
were at it. Then came dissentions and inventions.
And the biggest one is the Watchtower Society.
And to think we believed all the poison they spud out
against all other religions. It was the Chinese drop.
It bore a hole through our brains and we just parroted
everything they taught us, and the worse part is that we actually believed it! Today I am free to believe or not
believe, but I think everyone should get their due for the
good works they do.
,
@Anonymous. Again Excellent Scriptural Analysis that SHOWS HOW CRUEL & VICIOUS & BARBARIC the JWs Version of ARMAGEDDON is!!!
@Gameisover, when I was talking about the Pope being a walking idiot, I wasn’t talking about the Pope in the Catholic church. I was talking about one of our “popes”.
@Tuxedo Joe, most of us commenting here have apostatised from a
degenerate, pseudo religious org. A death dealing, family destroying,
Paedophile refuge, and many of us have been personally affected by
these things.
I’d say it’s understandable that our expressed opinions, are much less
than benevolent. If strong condemnation of injustice and hypocrisy
is classed as bitterness, then Jesus was indeed a bitter person.
As for your own ad hominem attack, it contained plenty of nastiness
and venom, and had little more purpose than that.
@Gameisover, but I did love your comment!
Hi Lloyd. That was great! If anything, the SOB sure as heck can’t take criticism or answer a critic with a proper argument or rebuttal. What the hang up proves is he lost an opportunity to try and set the record strait and defend his really indefensible positions on tight pants. This shows what a happens when he and other GB members (remember the court case subpoena?) do when faced with real criticism. They RUN like cowards with the tail between their legs instead of engage in defending their screwball positions.
As regards comments regarding the YR I do not advocate violence of any discription.
If there is and whether or not there is a God I wouldn’t want to be that man.
Amazing,
Cedars video launched with over 3,000 views with in 24 hrs. 5 days later 7,694 views.
Will this reach 8.2 million or 19.6 million views?
Or 7.2 billion views?
We all need take to relax and laugh at ourselfs.
Brother Cedars, job well done!!
.
@gameisover:
Allow me to point out that your comment sports one of the most erroneous notions at large, which is:
“The RCC put together the Bible canon.”
Nothing can be more remote from the truth. The Tanakh – our “OT” with its 3 main sections Torah, Nevi’im and Ketuvim – was complete by 200 B.C. at the latest, bec. it was by then that the LXX-translators had completed rendering it in Greek, and which is also why Jesus and the NT-writers could quote from almost of the OT-books except a few, like Esther. Which doesn’t mean those other books weren’t part of the Tanakh, as all old codices etc. show. This was way before the RCC appeared on the horizon.
As to what we today call the NT: The Muratorian fragment from around 200 A.D. demonstrates that the entire NT-canon except some late books (2 Pet, James, Rev) was established by then; the few books not listed, or disputed, appear in all list of “approved” books shortly afterwards, which was long before there even existed any traces of the RCC which came into being only in connection with emperor Constantin during the 4th century A.D.
Hence: The RCC had nothing – ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!! – to do with compiling the canon of our Bible.
What the RCC did, in contrast, besides stipulating the Latin Bible with all its translation errors plus unbiblical and later added apocryphic books as the only “usable” one, was persecuting & burning alive all those who dared to point out the RCCs errors and rottenness, as well as trying to move on as regards Bible translation and research, like Erasmus of Rotterdam and others, who needed to fear for their lives for the “crime” of making available the original (not Latin) Bible texts that way surpassed the Vulgate, but were not “approved” by the power-crazy clergy.
What the WTS does – just like the RCC did – is imposing a bad Bible translation (NWT) that is covering up, altering, or distorting the original sense of the message, like for example in their biased “exercising faith”, “from house to house”, “all other things” etc. misleading renderings, and imposing her church rules based on those warped scriptures as the “Only Truth”, and figuratively killing all those who dare to point out the WTS’ errors. So, yes, at least here we do agree: RCC & WTS – partners in crime indeed!
Greetings,
Criticus
I’ll try again.
I loved the prank call, I loved Cedars did and it actually worked…bear in mind I am out of the org.
It was “juvenile” or as Oubilette puts it “counter-productive” not in the sense that we that are out would see it but “juvenile” or “counter-productive” from the point of view of a still-in person who reads Cedars site.
Cedars site is one of very few sites that portray excellent info without any negative twist or apostate feel thus Cedars site is in a unique place where it can attract those who have a crisis with their faith and help them get mentally out.
It’s “juvenile” or “counter-productive” to these ones and thus counter-productive to the goal that Cedars has in helping people see the org for what it is.
For those of us that ARE out the prank call was brilliant…but if Cedars is serious in his goal in trying to help as many see the org for what it is then, in my opinion, he needs to curtail this type of thing…articles about AM3 or prank calls, whilst funny to us mentally out and actually reinforce our conviction that the org is crap actually deters those from looking to Cedars site as a site that they can trust.
I’ve tried in vain to make this point clear to Cedars…I have no beef with Lloyd and love his work, love his site and in fact helped me get out but I feel he will lose his credibility, not with me or any of us that are out, but with those who are on the fence.
It is those that we need to help the most…hence why I agree with Oubilette and why I have posted furiously why this was not a good idea.
I’ll repeat, I loved it, those who are out loved it…those who are still in and fighting mentally who may come out will be deterred to stay away from this site if this kind of posts continue.
And whilst I disagree with Cedars on this matter I still want to assure him of my respect for him, for what he has done and what he is doing.
All I ask is that you see past the negative comments and actually see what we are saying any WHY we are saying it. Because if you can you are on a winner here, your site can become the holy grail to all exjw’s in that we can refer jws to it safe in knowledge it won’t appear as an apostate site and it will help these ones get out.
Just another observation. I’ve seen a few comments suggesting that Lloyd somehow wasted this opportunity by making this into a prank call when he could have instead confronted Tony Morris Cubed with some of the issues. scandals or doctrinal flaws that many ex and serving JW’s are concerned about.
I think it’s pretty clear from this call that, had Lloyd attempted to begin a genuine discussion over issues of substance, that handset would have crashed into the cradle faster than Jehu in a chariot. Ironically, a prank call aimed at getting a laugh was probably the only way to get this “Faithful and Wise Man” to engage with his critics for anything more than 30 seconds. Which says a lot more about this “Faithful and Wise Man” than it does about his critics.
@dontknowwheretogo. My husband is a born-in and he wouldn’t go to this web site for anything in the world. He abhors Cedars and anything that even suggests it’s against he Society in any way. There is absolutely nothing I could say to him to make him even consider looking at any of these articles. I have told him and the elders in our congregation that I absolutely hate the Governing Body. I am not afraid to tell them that. I can guarantee you that these kind of people will not come onto a web site like this. People like that are obedient to the Society in never checking out anything like this site.
The only ones who will come here are the curious and damaged. These people already are not listening to what the Society is telling them, ie. staying away from sites like this. These people already don’t have the total respect for orders from the Governing Body. These people are open enough to disobey the Society so they already have lost total respect for them. I wouldn’t worry about people like that coming on here and seeing Cedar’s call. They wouldn’t be here anyway.
The ones that are coming here, need to see that the Governing Body members are demanding to be seen as anointed by Jesus and appointed by Jesus Christ as Faithful and Discreet when they have absolutely no evidence of such a thing.
Cedars didn’t make that phone call to make fun of Tony Morris. He did it to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes, which nobody else has the courage to do. What he did was courageous beyond courageous and he should be commended for what he did. These men aren’t super special and according to the Bible, they shouldn’t think of themselves like that either, that is if they actually are Christian, like they claim and nobody should be afraid of them to tell them that. Jesus would. Jesus would have thrown people like that out of the Temple with a whip.
These men make themselves demigods who demand unquestioning obedience and that puts 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses in danger every day of their life because if any one of them should get into an accident or need an operation, they could lose their life because of that unquestioning obedience to this organization.
These men need to be taken down, both in stature and in obedience. This organization run by those men, cause nothing but pain and suffering and loss to all of it’s followers of being able to lead a happy and fulfilling life now and into the future. They need to be exposed for what they are, which is nothing but deluded self-appointed demigods, taking advantage of anyone that they can suck into their cult.
I don’t agree with your assessment of that phone call at all. He wasn’t trying to be funny. He didn’t do it to poke fun of Morris. What he did was courageous.