Watchtower’s much-anticipated 129th Annual Meeting was held today at the Stanley Theater, New Jersey. In an unprecedented move, the event was streamed live to 1,830 locations – a global audience of nearly 1.5 million Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Sadly I was among those without an invitation. The Governing Body does not tend to welcome with open arms those like me who are critical of some of their teachings and policies.
But thankfully I have not been left entirely in the dark, and neither has anyone else for that matter! One brave blogger going by the name of “DrJohnChrist” who attended one of the streaming locations has provided a running commentary via a thread on the Reddit social network.
Much of the hype leading up to the Annual Meeting surrounded the fact that there has been a far-reaching shortage of New World Translations over the last few months, with congregation stocks running dry. This led to rumors that a new version of the English New World Translation was in preparation – and it seems these whispers were not wide of the mark.
It fell to Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson to announce the new release. Revised into 21st Century English with a grey cover and silver edges, a revision of the New World Translation bible has been released today with the PDF version available on Monday 7th (presumably on JW.org). This is what it looks like…
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Nicknamed the “witnessing bible” (according to Stephen Lett), a large-print version will be available in 2014 followed by a pocket version. A large bible with wide margins for note-taking is also planned. The new bibles feature a “mini reasoning book,” an “extensive appendix,” a glossary, outlined summaries at the start of each book, maps and other references.
You can check the play-by-play thread yourself by clicking here.
A sexist faux pas?
In explaining the development of the new bible, Geoffrey Jackson is said to have commented extensively on the work that was done – which included designing a new font set for copyright reasons.
When commenting on the new bible’s appearance and durability, Jackson is reported to have joked that it is both “witness-proof” and “sister proof.” Quite what this means isn’t immediately obvious, but it could be that he was alluding to a stereotype of women as being overly fastidious as to how an item looks rather than its content and purpose.
While many Witnesses would likely shrug off such a remark, it was undoubtedly sexist assuming, of course, that these were Jackson’s words. You could imagine the uproar if a politician on camera described the appearance of any item as “woman proof.” It would also not be the first time a Governing Body member has made a chauvinistic remark from the platform, as certain videos featuring Stephen Lett and Samuel Herd will show.
A revised translation
It seems that, rather than being an entirely new translation (which would require a new name) this new bible is a revised translation – meaning that it is predominantly an updated and improved version of the original English New World Translation.
About two years ago I was informed by a translator in a non-English bethel that it was only a matter of time before the NWT English version would be revised, because it was originally written in 1950s English whereas subsequent translators in other languages have had the luxury of rendering bible verses in a more contemporary lexicon. This prediction was clearly accurate.
A number of terms have thus been changed as follows (according to the Reddit thread)…
- “Long-suffering” is now “patience”
- “Loose conduct” is now “brazen conduct”
- “Fornication” is now “sexual immorality”
- “Impaled” is now “nailed to a stake”
- “Sheol and hades” is now “the grave”
- “Revelries” is now “wild parties”
- “Soul” is now a variety of words depending on context
- “Kidney” now means “deepest emotions”
- “In want of heart” is now “lacking good sense”
- “Sons of Israel” is now “Israelites”
- “Fatherless boy” is now “fatherless child”
- “Alien” is now “foreigner”
- “Ass” is now “donkey”
- “Impale him” is now “to the stake with him” (a regression if you ask me!)
- “Dumb demon” is now “speechless”
- “Loving kindness” is now “loyal love”
- “Jacob’s ladder” is now “Jacob’s stairway”
- and Joseph’s “coat of many colors” is now his “special robe.”
Parts of the gospels that are disputed have been removed, namely the long and short conclusions to Mark, and John 7:53-8:11. You will be familiar with these passages as the parts that appear in small font in the original version. This adjustment will doubtless not meet with widespread approval.
It will be interesting to see how certain key texts often used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to support Watchtower teachings have now been rendered, but without having seen the bible I am personally willing to trust that no attempt has been made to alter the meaning of verses or distort scripture. I will know more once I have seen the bible for myself.
Though this bible revision first-and-foremost represents a straightforward improvement to the original English, the extent of changes (i.e. removal of disputed gospel passages and addition of extra reference material) should necessitate new versions of bibles in other languages. Otherwise you would have an English bible that differs significantly in content from its non-English counterparts. The question of how and when other language versions will be introduced apparently wasn’t addressed at the annual meeting, so we will have to wait and see what transpires. [Edit: this question WAS in fact raised during the meeting, and Guy Pierce indicated that other language editions WOULD be released, but not in the immediate future.]
Replacement for Watchtower Library?
A new application is also said to have been announced at the annual meeting by Guy Pierce, with the insinuation that it will replace Watchtower Library.
“JW Library” is reported to include five other bible translations, and will be available for download from Monday 7th onwards from Google Play, the Apple Store, the Windows Store, and Amazon.
It remains to be seen whether a price will be attached to this new software. If there is, this could prove to be a very clever and unprecedented way of guaranteeing extra cash flow. However, I would rather give the organization the benefit of the doubt and assume it is a free download until I am able to check on Monday!
[Edit: I am pleased to confirm that this app is free to download. Furthermore, having listened to the announcement, I personally doubt JW Library is an immediate replacement for Watchtower Library, since it is only really designed for touch-screen devices. That said, it would not surprise me if there are long term plans for JW Library to be the successor to Watchtower Library.]
Anti-climax
In the build-up to this meeting, rumors were rife on the internet that there would be another major new scriptural understanding, or “new light,” unveiled. These rumors were understandable given the magnitude of the doctrinal changes at last year’s event, in which the Governing Body announced itself to be the faithful slave.
In opening this year’s annual meeting, Guy Pierce could be said to have somewhat goaded his audience and raised expectations unnecessarily.
This is what he reportedly said, according to DrJohnChrist…
“Will important bible questions be answered? Yes. Proverbs 4:18. There will be new light. The righteous ones (Jehovah’s people) will get the light. Will bible truths be refined at this meeting? Absolutely.”
You can arguably excuse the “bible questions” remark as a joking acknowledgment of the number of enquiries doubtless received at headquarters as to the lack of availability of bibles.
Even so, if Guy Pierce truly said the above, then he was leading his audience up a blind alley. “Bible truths” were not “refined” at this meeting, certainly not in the sense that people would understand that statement. There was no “new light.”
Again, it remains to be seen what Pierce’s exact words were, but if this is a fair representation of what he said to introduce the meeting, then in my view his words were misleading.
Question marks can also be raised over the words of another Governing Body member. In his Watchtower summary, Gerrit Lösch is reported to have said the following…
“It’s good for us not to have association with relatives who love worldly pursuits. Are our children acting worldly? Using worldly slang? Actively STEER children toward baptism. What are your children’s conversations like? Can they sing worldly songs by heart but not kingdom songs? Do I permit my children to play with worldly children? Do they talk only about kingdom interests?”
Firstly, surely children should not be “steered” or coerced into making a lifelong commitment that they cannot fully appreciate until they have matured? Is this not a main reason why so many youths get disfellowshipped and end up being shunned by their parents?
As to the remarks about “worldly” relatives, inactive “faded” Witnesses including me will once more let out a collective sigh of disappointment at the “us versus them” mentality encouraged by the Governing Body – if this is truly what Lösch said. Deprivation of normal family contact and association is yet again used as a tool for control and punishment, as with the recent convention reminders on shunning (which all but admitted that shunning is a form of emotional blackmail).
The future is bright
But despite the disappointments, I take great encouragement from this meeting. If the above information turns out to be verified, as I hope it will be over the next few days, it will represent the THIRD major leak over the past 12 months. First we had the leak of the October 2012 elder’s letter regarding child abuse. Then in March the so-called “new light” July 15th Watchtower was leaked on this website weeks in advance of its normal release.
Now we have a thinking Witness providing a live blog feed from inside a tightly controlled and confidential meeting where use of social media was expressly banned. The bravery that DrJohnChrist has shown in getting the word out is highly commendable, and I am excited to think of what other significant leaks of information we can look forward to in the near future as yet more thinking Witnesses inside the organization decide to push the boundaries and make a difference.
UPDATE: To read my follow-up article, click here. I am now in receipt of audio files for the annual meeting which correspond with the above notes, and I can confirm the accuracy of what was written in this article based on those notes. I would, however, like to clarify two aspects of DrJohnChrist’s notes that seem to be causing some confusion: (1) when Gerrit Lösch said that God’s will is to be completed by the end of the millennium, this has given some the impression that Lösch was referring to the end of this century, when in fact he was referring to the end of Christ’s millennial rule, and (2) the phrase “bum witnesses” was never used in Lösch’s talk. The word “bum” was used once in Anthony Morris’ talk, but only in an illustration.
Further reading…
Related videos…
Thank you to DrJohnChrist & John Cedars for this posting. I read it last night and was absolutely AGOG! I could not beleive it. Needed an entire day to absorb. Talked to my mother after she and my dad got back from their Annual Meeting (now that they are talking to me somewhat – I officially stopped attending meetings June 2013 and told them) and she said verbatim what DrJohnChrist’s tweet said. She even added that the brother introducing the webcast mentioned the need for new bibles was due to (drumroll please…) the fact that some of “the existing bibles were leaking ink.” Yes! I couldn’t beleive it. I asked my mother some questions and didn’t understand how the WTBS could print a new bible changing the language when we would criticize other translators for modernizing the bible language.
I asked her why since 1950 has the WTBS produced 4 versions of the bibles and also why it is gray color!? It will become like the green bible where if anyone in the upcoming year has the regular 1980 print black/burgandy bible you will be seen as “weak” or as a marker for “inactivity.”
This really leads me to beleive WTBS is now changing their view on inactive JWs the same as being DF’d. She said the brother who distributed the bibles said it was not to be given to those who are DF’d nor inactive. It has to be distributed to those who are active members of the congregation!
A friend of mine who’s brother died last year was barred from having his funeral at the hall because he was inactive for the past few years. I wouldn’t be surprised IF in the coming years those who are inactive that did not give a good “excuse” to the congregation secretary (maybe being sick or depressed) and just faded into inactivity will be sumarily disfellowshipped. WTBS is really drawing a line in the sand here on US vs. THEM.
I think many of the young and thinking JWs will leave in the next year or so. The hard-core brain-drained JWs who don’t question anything the GB brings down OR who accepted the July 15th WT hook and sinker as a good thing will stay.
This is really a true shock. The WTBS has poured down Macy’s July 4th Fireworks new light on the rank-and-file.
And is that really Jackson’s wife? She looks at LEAST 30 years his junior.
moflez Chanflez:
Many of us have families that are JW’s and they are being held as a part of this cult and many are being shunned by their own family. As such they would love to be able to speak again with their loved ones. Your name calling shows your age and your ignorance, which qualifies you to be a Jehovah’s Witness, which you probably are and just don’t want anyone to know that you are on this site.
Good point George, if a child can make the decision to dedicate his/her life at 12y. Could they also make the opposite decision to leave the religion at 12y. I have never herd of a 12y getting disfellowshipped. Makes you wonder, if the child ever really had a choice.
So is This Bible Only For The U.S?
I think Geoffrey is a pedophile minded man. This picture from them is sick.
Cedars, we have translated this article and are translating the newest… will be posted tonight! :)
hello mofl, you know all from nothing or would it be better said you know nothing from all? You should use the www to research the JWs and then you would get open eyes and would be able to consider if you tell here BS. God does not need a prophet who predicts wrong stories and afterwards he makes the believers guilty in believing it and gives between the ,ines even god the fault. I know them since nearly 50 years was once a big fighter for them. Today I know that I followed a shaddow. of the evil.
of course Mf is a JW, and has to add his little tyrade of bashing, he really must be distrubed about all the chAnges with in the house of JW, fighting to keep his JW life afloat by coming on here to attack, sorry for him/her that he has not much faith left, and using this site as a threashing ground only to try and help his waving belief.
I think you are grasping at straws cedars. I am not a Jehovah’s Witness and I doubt I ever will be, it was a nice surprise, everyone likes nice surprises.
One reason for the secrecy, was so that the trash wouldn’t leak it out, so the whole world got the same surprise.
As in the hall I attend, we have two congregations. One in the morning one in the afternoon.
Thanks Gary, but can you give a plausible reason why the Governing Body could not have given advance notice that they were developing a new bible – especially since the subsequent lack of availability of the original version would cause an inconvenience to the brothers?
Don’t worry Roland Nelken, Gary Watson understands a lot of things.
I have been studying the Bible ever since I could read, I turn sixty on Friday. My Grandparents were Bible people (not Jehovah’s Witnesses).
I never get asked back to seminars or Bible study groups because I question too much.
Never been asked to leave the Witnesses and trust me (I’m not a politician) I dig deep and I question until it hurts.
wow! lots of great comments
Angus,
Funny point about the Governing Body hahahaha!
Cedars,
I have been on jw.org and I cant seem to see the new nwt, Galatians 5:19 still says “loose conduct” in the online version I read
Hi 70wks! I’m checking periodically myself, but they didn’t say precisely when on Monday the new bible would be up on JW.org.
No. The Governing Body is a group of brothers who reside in New York at the world headquarters who supervise and manage the world organization.
By “sister proof”, he meant quite the opposite- that sisters use the Bible frequently and carry it with them in their purses, etc. so the Bible can be put up to more tests in endurability. If you associated with pioneering sisters, you would know this.
Children who talk of kingdom interests are children who see themselves as pioneers, bethelites, etc. in their future, or express desires to do more for God’s kingdom. Have you not seen in the magazines where happy families engage in outdoor games like the ones you have mentioned above? In one magazine, an article on tips for traveling abroad was very helpful to many traveling families. If the organization does not encourage families to travel out to the beach, for example, then why publish such an article?
Worldly pursuits are those paths of life that take people down a road of materialism, selfishness, etc. rather than towards God. In other words, pursuing what is worldly to God’s eyes, which He and Jesus clearly spell out in the Bible.
What a superficial person you are for not looking into all the work the organization is doing and how important it is to see how to apply these lessons to yourself rather than criticizing the men God has appointed.
Hello Mariposa, thank you for visiting our website! Please could you state on what evidence you base your conviction that God has appointed the Governing Body – other than because the Governing Body says he did?
Releases are still done at conventions. This was a historic event, and those invited were meant to be publishers who are exemplary in their conduct and worship and not people who would tarnish God’s name.
So only “examplary” ones are allowed to be the first to learn about a new bible? On what scriptural principle to you base this?
I remember, we just got the Hungarian NWT in 2003… now in 10 years witnesses here will hear, that there is already a newer and better NWT.
And of course, they will hear that first from the apostates =)
Thanks for all the info!
I was raised as a witness, love the people I made friends with, but the emotional blackmail is unbelievable from family members. The comments made by certain members of the GB is despicable… My entire family are being encouraged to Shun me because I am a non-believer?!? I was never taught this at the kingdom hall. Things are getting worse.
One thing I have always noticed is that sexism plays a big part, with changing times you would expect changing views on women in religion.
I am finding it harder and harder to respect my families views on religion as i’m hearing more and more disturbing comments.
I totally agree with you Cedars, wheres the equality? I read another comnent earlier aswell stating that only strong standing members of the congregation would be issued the new bible, however think thats maybe just rumour, can’t see that going down well.
“Sister Proof” I believe would be a inside joke reference to Psalm 68:11.
Question to Cedars – where are you getting your information painting the comments in a “derogatory” light? Your opinion or based on your relationship with God?
Sounds like you are a former JW and trying to hate on them. Peace.
Hello Hangsu – my comments are based on my opinion, which you are free to agree with or disagree with. You may well be right about Ps 68:11, although unfortunately we are left with guesswork because Jackson did not make the reason for his “sister proof” joke clear.
As of this moment I am still a JW although I do not agree with a number of Watchtower teachings and policies, and I am not ashamed of this.
If, for example, I supported Watchtower’s policy on child molesters I would need to agree that police shouldn’t be involved in EVERY accusation of child abuse – and I do not. Child abuse is a crime, and should be treated as such.
Are Dr. John Christ And John Cedars active Jehovah Witnesses In Good Standing or are you disfellowshipped?
Hello Bill – no I’m not disfellowshipped, yes I’m a Jehovah’s Witnesses, yes I am able to stand perfectly well, and I try to be as active as my health permits! :)
[edit – thank you for reminding readers of our posting guidelines]
If the “sister proof” comment was that sisters are pioneers and use the bible more often, shouldn’t they have said “pioneer proof”? No matter the meaning, it’s still derogatory and dismissive and grossly inappropriate. How dare they take such an important, solemn occasion and rudely joke about half of Jehovah’s servants that way! You notice they don’t joke about something being “old man proof”, or would that hit too close to home for the GB?
I don’t know any sisters that are so careless and clumsy with their bible that they let lipstick get on it or just toss it in the bottom of their purse. To me it really shows the disconnect that there is between the organization and women in general. Women are not grownup adults able to handle real responsibilities, but they see them as just children; clumsy, negligent, immodest, needing things explained to them, and good for nothing more than cooking, sex, and grunt work.
@Ileana, I’m not saying JW’s are simplifying or clarifying with this new edition. Like the previous refinements to the New World in the 1980’s where a few choice words were replaced, the grammar and overall structure of sentences is awkward and continues to disguise the message and content.
The NIV and the NKJV beat the NWT and remain scholarly editions. The NWT has never had academic or the recognition that the Watchtower Society claims. All praises of the translation have dubious ties to favors given by the Watchtower–whether publishing a translator’s content at a future date, or sending students en masse to attend Biblical Hebrew courses.
Whatevs,
If this comment was like you said ‘derogatory and dismissive and grossly inappropriate’, why then every one laughed at it? Aren’t this brothers wisely and smart enough to avoid using this comment several times knowing that they were going to hurt our lovely sisters.
With your respect, your comment is out of context.
Cedars,
I’m sorry to disagree with you on your Child Molesters point of view. With your respect, by reading your post I can easily conclude that you are missing pieces of this puzzle. You will go nowhere by misleading people with your comments based on your own doubts. Please, do yourself a favor, do an honest research on this and all other doubts (subjects) and pray Jehovah to help you find the answers. Then share with us your findings.
On the other hand, lets say JWs are wrong on what they teach from the Bible, who’s right then? Are those who accept or practice what God has said not to do the right ones? Are our children being taught that it is okay being exposed to violent video games and spend excessive amount of time doing so is good? What other organization cares more that this one on every aspect of our live? There’s no other.
I really feel sad and sorry for those that are just willing to hear what they want to hear; in other words, that give away the ears. Is the Bible the word of God? Then, lets learn what God has to tell us by finding its insight, instead of pointing or criticizing the organization that is making all the efforts to guide every person that’s willing to get to know the almighty God and serve him, to accomplish that goal. Remember who was the first one in twist the meaning of Jehovah’s rules? Of course, we all know that it was Satan when deceived Eve. (Genesis 3) It is wise to pay attention to what is expressed in forums like this one. Meditate using this questions, What is the purpose behind it? Pushing people away from God’s organization? Oh, if that’s the case even if you do not want to accept it, remember that we all have to face the consequence from the result of our own acts.
Ok Justin, which pieces of the jigsaw puzzle am I missing? By all means check my child abuse articles (see article categories) and let me know how I am misguided in my characterization of Watchtower’s policies in this regard. I would be fascinated to know. As this precise moment it looks like it is you who needs to do research, and not I.
If you studied the bible regarding the Israelites and their relationship with God then you would understand your own comment better. When you open your mouth you show your displacement and lack of knowledge.
Welcome Loyalintruth – I’m not sure lack of knowledge is an issue here. I would wager that I have more knowledge about Jehovah’s Witnesses, their beliefs and history than you do. The main difference between you and I is that you are willing to follow a group of men simply because they say they are God’s representatives, and I am not. Evidence is required to make such a claim, and I can find none.
By the aspect of your answer, you are using an apostate weapon. “As this precise moment it looks like it is you who needs to do research, and not I.”
Let the time be the best witness.
On the other hand, lets say JWs are wrong on what they teach from the Bible, who’s right then? Are those who accept or practice what God has said not to do the right ones? Are our children being taught that it is okay being exposed to violent video games and spend excessive amount of time doing so is good? What other organization cares more that this one on every aspect of our live? There’s no other.
I really feel sad and sorry for those that are just willing to hear what they want to hear; in other words, that give away the ears. Is the Bible the word of God? Then, lets learn what God has to tell us by finding its insight, instead of pointing or criticizing the organization that is making all the efforts to guide every person that’s willing to get to know the almighty God and serve him, to accomplish that goal. Remember who was the first one in twist the meaning of Jehovah’s rules? Of course, we all know that it was Satan when deceived Eve. (Genesis 3) It is wise to pay attention to what is expressed in forums like this one. Meditate using this questions, What is the purpose behind it? Pushing people away from God’s organization? Oh, if that’s the case even if you do not want to accept it, remember that we all have to face the consequence from the result of our own acts.
Justin – I am not your enemy, I am trying to help you.
Contrary to what you have been taught, you do not NEED an organization to have a relationship with Jehovah if that is what you want.
I explain this in my article…
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/lord-whom-shall-we-go-away-to
Cedar,
I’m not saying you are my enemy. All I’m saying is that let the Bible judge us not you!
Your comments are intended to mislead and have no biblical backup. I’m sorry you are helping nobody for good.
It’s a shame that you are acting like an apostate but, it’s expected.
I’m judging nobody other than Watchtower. People can believe what they like, but an organization that misleads and harms people is another matter entirely. Why don’t you give yourself permission to scrutinize the organization and see what happens? You might be surprised. You can start with the fact that Watchtower was an NGO member of the United Nations between 1992 and 2001 and work from there.
Justin, if domestic violence is wrong, why are so many brothers (incl. elders) guilty of hitting their wives? Why are so many other elders guilty of condoning that violence by telling the wives they “provoked” their husbands and instructing them to apologize to their husbands?
If raping little children is wrong, why are so many brothers guilty of doing this? Why are so many elders guilty of hiding it and covering it up?
Just because some mindless sheep, and perhaps other callus and rude men and women with no self-esteem, laughed at an inappropriate comment, that doesn’t mean that it was right. People do wrong things and other people laugh, endorse that behavior, turn a blind eye, etc., all the time.
Cedars, I like all of the sex scandels and hypocrisy that you reveal about the JW’s, but I have to agree with some of the ones that have commented about you “pulling straws” or whatever here and other times. You lose your edge when you complain about jokes. I guess you never make jokes or laugh at jokes with any sexist tone, you must have had an experience that changed your view. This kind of argument will not get witnesses to leave, but only reinforces their view of “apostates” as being mean and evil out of bitterness, not because they actually have a point.
To make things worse, you still call yourself a JW and lack the courage to leave, no matter the cost. It seems that you also do not believe in God at times, which shows that if you do, you are very confused as to who he is. Until you actually do have a better alternative for these wandering JW’s, you are causing them harm just like the Jdubs are. Maybe not as much, but for them just to leave and then become atheist for the wrong reason would be horrible. Atheists should be be atheists based on their hate of religion.
I will tell you who has the right to teach and you and Jdubs will not like the answer, but it is the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church, who have had apostolic succession since the times of Jesus. Look up Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, etc. Unlike Jdubs, the Church’s teachings do not flip flop or change dates of Christ’s return. I hope you look into Church history Cedars, until you do so, you really are confusing the matter. I still love to look at your site, because you are pretty much correct, but you choose the wrong battles sometimes.
Greg, you are entitled to disagree that Geoffrey Jackson was being sexist, but whatever he precisely meant I think it’s fairly obvious that he was – and this is conduct unbecoming of someone claiming to be an ambassador of Christ.
As to my personal beliefs and doubts, these are irrelevant so long as the information I provide is factual – and I invite anyone to tell me if I write something that is demonstrably wrong and I will remove or correct it. I may not be able to tell people what is true, but I can certainly tell them what is false – and I won’t have you tell me any differently. If anything, my lack of personal convictions should be an added reason for JWs to examine what I say, because I am not out to ensnare anyone to any alternative church.
As to basically calling me a coward because I am forced to remain a Witness under threat of shunning by my family – that is a grotesque insinuation to make and I would appreciate an apology.
Sve je u redu. Ali kako mislis da si jos uvjek JW. Zar to ime nije izmislio Raselov igrac Rateford. Zar je posteno napadati nekoga iz svoje grupe. Google Translete pa objasni. Valjda toliko zasluzujemo Cedar.
Hi dino m – I am forced to remain a JW at least for the time being because my father has told me he will shun me if I leave. Things may change soon, but I make no apologies for doing the best I can to help free people with the circumstances I have. And I am not attacking Jehovah’s Witnesses, I am trying to help them think objectively and do research.
@Greg:
“Atheists should be be atheists based on their hate of religion.” No, the definition of an atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in god. Not all atheists hate religion; some acknowledge the good that is sometimes done in the name of religion, and some even celebrate holidays. There’s a difference between not believing in something and hating something.
“Until you actually do have a better alternative for these wandering JW’s, you are causing them harm…” Wrong again. You don’t need a better alternative to simply talk about shortcomings and horrible practices. If you know someone has a cheating or lying spouse, should you keep your mouth shut until you have a new spouse lined up for them?
“…for them just to leave and then become atheist for the wrong reason would be horrible.” Who says that 1) JWs will leave? Many simply want certain policies and practices to be changed and for the GB to stop putting themselves in an elevated position, and 2) if they leave, they become atheists? Many who leave JWs still believe in the Bible and Jehovah or some god of some sort, and many find that they’re spiritual but not religious.
What a narrow view of things and people you have.
Cedar, Believe me, I have scrutinized the organization I belong to (JW) and I am proud that I have done that very deeply. That’s why I can stand up and sustain that what you are doing is completely wrong and have vane arguments.
But is interesting that you haven’t answer this question yet that I keep posting: ‘Lets say JWs are wrong on what they teach from the Bible, who’s right then? Are those who accept or practice what God has said not to do the right ones?’
I know you mention that there’s no need to be part of an organization to serve Jehovah, but: what content from the Bible supports that?
Justin, you ask two questions that are frankly silly, if I may say.
Question 1 – If JWs are wrong, then who is right?
This question assumes that there MUST BE a true organization that represents God, despite the fact that according to JWs there was no organization at all for centuries prior to Russell. Suddenly it’s the last days and God NEEDS to have an organization or he is powerless to do anything. Doesn’t God deserve a bit more credit? I thought he could get the stones to cry out if necessary to get his message heard.
Basically, your question suggests that Watchtower cannot be wrong because no one else is right. That is why it is a silly question, because it is based on a false premise – namely that at least one organization MUST be true.
By the way, did you read that link about “whom shall we go away to?”
Question 2 – Prove to me that the bible says we don’t need an organization!
With respect, you prove to me that it says we do. You will find when you do an objective analysis of the Greek scriptures that the early congregations were autonomous, and only approached the “apostles and older men” when the circumcision issue arose. Why do you think Jesus wrote to them all in Revelation and they were all doing things differently? Even the Apostle Paul didn’t take orders from the apostles. Yes he helped convey the message following the circumcision issue in Acts 15 and 16, but apart from that he did his own thing. No organization needed – just the bible.
Don’t you believe the bible makes us COMPLETELY equipped for every good work. Do you think we need more?
Ok. Pomogao si mnogima i meni , ali ipak ne treba se braniti niti dokazivati nesto rijecima ja sam jos uvjek JW. To zbunjuje one one koji zele imati uvid u to sta je biti JW i kako ne biti rob JW i WTS.
dino m – I’m sorry you don’t like me referring to myself as a JW. I have explained my situation at various points on this website and I don’t think it’s hard for people to understand the idea that you can be a JW in name only and not support the Watchtower. I cannot help the fact that I was coerced into swearing allegiance to a cult as a pre-teenager and am now banned from leaving without consequences. Hopefully you understand the complexity of it all. I certainly don’t think I’m misleading anyone. I’m perfectly open about the fact that I’m inactive and disagree with Watchtower. I fail to understand why my personal beliefs are so important so long as what I write is factual.
WHOA…a new bible…that’s almost as worse as another predicted armeggedon date -_-…or deciding that the members can now chose certain parts of blood for transfusing lol…or choosing which molestation cases are “ceasar worthy” lol…or telling an elder that he must step down since their 18yr old son that’s been disfellowshipped almost 2yrs hasn’t moved out yet…or to tell a JW mother she may never acknowledge her firstborn daughter again because she decided being a JW just wasn’t for her…or denying a person certain “privledges” because they have a speech impediment…or forcing a repentant soul to also repent in front of a group of elders, and ask them to beg for mercy in your behalf (lol, although I am NOT joking, it just sounds as asinine as it actually is, smh)…..
these guys just don’t know when to sit down, shut up, and ride the tidal wave theyve been riding for some time now eh?? well one day soon they and their millions of sheep will be flicked off the boogyboard…and even my own mother will be forced to know that I truly am a child of God afterall.
Would revealing that they’re working on a new bible translation have accomplished anything positive? Would it have decreased shortages? Is it REALLY something to be overly concerned about?
Yes, people would then know WHY there’s a shortage, but any thinking person realizes that wouldn’t have made that shortage any more ‘convenient’, would it? What would knowing ahead of time accomplish?
Look at all the rumors surrounding any new item a large company (e.g. Apple) develops. People spread rumors, make stuff up, build up expectations and make people more interested about what’s NOT included than what is. It usually leads to some kind of disappointment when elevated expectations are not met. (Though I admit, it’s hard to stay away from Apple rumor sites… ;) ).
Additionally, false rumors are more easily spread and expanded on when only partial knowledge is released. OTOH, who would it be especially useful for?
I’m sure you’ll agree that having partial information can be deceptive. For example, in this article it’s mentioned that it’s unclear whether or not there will be a price associated with JW Library, and then ADDING that it could be a way to assure income.
You must admit that knowing partial information allowed liberty to be taken. The statement was pure conjecture. Conjecture can be a powerful way to influence people to think a certain way or feel negatively or positively about a certain topic while maintaining the ability to not make claims.
Focusing so much on the supposed secrecy of something that ends up being released VERY publicly seems silly. After all, it’s not as if this bible won’t be widely distributed. If nothing else, it’s a good chance to exercise long-suffering… errrmm…. I mean patience. ;-)
Hopefully this post will be permitted. If it is, you may edit this final paragraph out if you wish. It’s not my intent to intimate that you don’t allow thought-out dissenting comments.
Cedars, it is pretty clear in the Bible that Jesus put his 12 in positions of authority, especially Peter. He is given the keys, told to feed his sheep, told that the Father has revealed Jesus to him, would gather back the separated brothers. Paul went to visit him once paul met Jesus. Paul’s letters also show the need to have order and to not tolerate schisms and apostasy. Jdubs are correct that their is order in the Church, they just don’t realize that they are the disordered. Read Church History everyone, what harm could that do?
greg – I’d thank you not to preach apostolic succession on this website. Sticking to the scriptures and not forming schisms against them is a long way from subscribing to an organization that micromanages everything right down to the dress code. You clearly have your own strong views about what religious views everyone else should have, but please set up your own site if you want to espouse them. I can’t help noticing you’re more vocal about your personal beliefs now that there are active Witnesses visiting. I wonder why that is?
PS – an apology for calling me a coward for being shunned is still pending.
You know, you could just admit that you were mistaken and you hadn’t thought about those points, instead of just changing the subject.
Yes, we are left with guess work. So, then why guess that it was sexist?
There is room for guesswork as to precisely what “sister proof” meant – but there can be no question that it was sexist, even if it was not AS sexist as when Geoffrey Jackson related the experience of the sister who phoned in bethel.
Svjedoku ipak ne treba reci “Ja sam jos uvjek JW”. Kao da si mu rekao WTS je OK. Isto tako razumijem da ne moras biti JW da bi vjerovao u JHWH.
I’m sorry, I can’t understand your point over Google Translate?
Cedars,
Check this article from w04 6/1 pp. 3-4
p. 3Should You Belong to a Church?
[voluminous copy-and-paste text deleted]
Justin – please don’t spam this page with Watchtower articles.
If you have a point to make, make it in a sentence or too. If you need to copy-and-paste Watchtower articles to make your point, then maybe it isn’t as strong as you think.