Political neutrality has long been a hallmark of Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least in theory if not always in practice. Any use of national flags, whether by means of saluting or displaying them, has traditionally been viewed as a forbidden form of idolatry – a rejection of “kingdom rule” in favor of human governments.
For example, a 1977 Watchtower insisted that “while respecting the rights of others to do what they want, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not share in flag ceremonies.” (w77 1/15 p.63)
Imagine, then, the surprise of many devout Witnesses to behold the spectacle of at least two kingdom halls in Chile displaying the national flag at the front of their buildings – alongside the JW.org logo!
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Chile has a special two-day national celebration, known as Fiestas Patrias, on September 18th and 19th. On these two days, ALL public buildings are to display the national flag, either on a flag pole or otherwise adorning the front of the building. Any institutions that refuse to show the flag do so at the risk of paying a fine.
Though reportedly some congregations would rather pay the fine than display a national symbol on a building dedicated to worship, it seems not all the bodies of elders in Chile see it as a problem.
Some have suggested that the disparity has been caused by congregations being instructed by the branch that they can decide for themselves whether to show the flag or not, but that if they refuse to show it they will be liable themselves for paying any fine. This has yet to be verified.
Whatever the thinking behind this, to display national flags at the front of dedicated kingdom halls flies in the face of the supposed political neutrality stance – an issue that was highlighted so graphically by the Mexico-Malawi scandal of the 60s, 70s and 80s. It seems that the extent to which Witnesses observe political neutrality depends largely on what part of the world they live in and, crucially, how much money is involved.
One pro-Watchtower website has already expressed frustration at the issue. JW-Archive.org showed the photos with the comment: “My question to the Chilean brothers is… Why not just pay the fines? I am sure Brooklyn would pay them for you if you requested.”
If reports that Chilean elders were told to go it alone by Watchtower are really true, then “Brooklyn” would likely not be as enthusiastic to dip into its coffers on this matter as many Witnesses would like to think.
Further reading…
Related video…
When this first came to my attention a year ago, I was in such disbelief that I dismissed the photo as utter rubbish. This just goes against everything I was taught as a JW. Wt if you read this, “Wow just wow. I never thought I would see the day”.
Certainly unthinkable a few years ago, but now with the society going more and more mainstream, it’s no big surprise. Be interesting to know the official view of this.
Apart from their stance on shunning they seem to be relaxing so many rules that were in place just a few years ago.
Hello Cedars.
Thank you so much John for continuing to expose the utter hypocritical nature of watchtower. Surprising? No. Brooklyn would never pay fines for congregations. It does appear that some congregations are getting in step with the real world. Displaying a National flag on the grounds of kingdom halls is a seismic mind shift. How will the gb explain this one? There are probably too many “offenders” and too much publicity to get rid of them. Watchtower has no place to hide and cover up another huge u turn. This cult would be amusing if its policies did not have such devastating effects. We must never forget that this cult is responsible for murder, hiding child rapists and destroying families. A plague upon their house say I.
Jerry
Jehovah is now planning some new light….dont worry. Remember the light gets brighter and brighter…..when it comes to money….he prefers to display the flag.
hypocrites, the b/s that suffered in Malawi have to the WT been forgotten, just used in a WT mag or talk now and then to brag about their Christian neutrality, totally appalling.
It would seem odd to me if, since last year some Kingdom Halls, or at least one Kingdom Hall, displayed the flag at their Kingdom Hall, that they wouldn’t have contacted the Branch to see what to do and were instructed that if they wanted to display the flag so as not to pay the fine that it would be up to the congregation to decide what to do with the $220 and since they put the flag up this year in at least these two kingdom halls, the Society must have told the brothers that it would be up to those individual kingdom halls to come up with the money? Otherwise, it would seem to me, if those Kingdom Halls were doing it rogue, that the Society would have had those brothers who made that decision, removed from being elders. But since it happened two years in a row, it would seem that the Society has given those brothers permission to display the flags? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
If the Society doesn’t do anything about this situation and remove those elders, then it is in effect, saying to the world of the rest of the Witnesses, that they are no longer being held to being neutral and following the rule in the Bible as “obeying God over the rulers of the world”. That is how I see this.
The Watchtower is full of words that go round and round and have no power such as the November 1, 1999 Watchtower pages 28, 29 on questions to readers asking if a Witness can vote. In this two page article, it tries to make it look like a witness has to be neutral and not vote but if you read the whole article, you can vote and nobody is to judge you for it. It would be up to each individual conscience. When you read this article, it makes me think that they already decided in 1999 that we don’t have to obey God over men’s rules and I think it’s so that they can’t be held responsible for what happened in Malawi.
Hello John,
I watched Mikey and Kim’s video on this hypocracy yesterday, but it didn’t state that this was for two days.
Even this short period of time is too long to display a National flag!
The double standards of the WTBTS disgust me. People were beaten, killed and raped in Malawi over this “neutrality” issue and now they’re ok with displaying flags in Chile?
Another great article, John.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Neutrality kind of deems when the GB want it to be.feel the Malawi issue or should i say blood guilty decisions should go straight on the GB,but it amazes me how its OK for some and not others,depending on country’s ect, although i could see the decision on the flag in chile being just put on the bro@sis own Conscious and if they were getting persecuted or continuous fines the prayers of the GB will be with them..BUT NOT THE PAYING OF THE FINES OR EVEN SUPPORT FOR PRISON SENTENCE ..As it was there whole hearted decision for the choice!!..you no what i mean..!! and how the GB put things over as not to take responsibility due to court cases and loosing money,which sadly what it boils down to Money!!!!!…if the GB want it they throw guilt ridden talks out but if they need to give it out money its like bloood out of a stone unless its to there benefit…same old scams different people and year
Back in 1955 I was told by my mother, as well as several Kingdom Hall congregants, that I could not possibly join the cubs as many of my friends were doing.
Cub ceremonial included saluting the Union Jack, so clearly an idolatrous practice.
For some reason, although some congregants disapproved, my mother had no qualms about taking us to the local panto or even to see magicians (i.e. sorcerers) like Sorcar and Tommy Cooper at the local theatre.
Like the Chilean brothers (presumably the sisters had no say either way), my mad JW mother was a model of inconsistency. She took pride in her unwashed, unkempt bag lady appearance, even when it resulted in her being banned from door knocking and reduced to handing out mags to neghbours and acquaintances.
So, maybe the Chilean chaps are simply par for the wayward, ever changing, inconsistent flip flopping JW course.
Roland, this is off topic, but you made me laugh at your description of your mother’s appearance and you are so right. If a Witness doesn’t “look” the part, they’d be barred from going door to door, representing the Society, but a man can be a molester and as long as he “looks” the part, he is welcome to represent the Society. Go figure….
It has always been about “keeping up appearances” with the borg. Unity & a good public image trumps just about everything.
AlanV, there is definite hints at the WTBTS trying to slowly become more mainstream. I know Cedars wrote a very good article on the July 15th WT. I would like to invite everyone (I really need some feedback) to review it again and tell me if it doesn’t seem like apostates are going to be seen differently? Both of the first two articles point to that. At least to me. I had this discussion with a WT defender and without mentioning it he also stated the same thing. I would not like to bias you too much so read it for yourself, but if afterwards you want to know what I see, let me know.
The Society SHOULD pay the fines and not leave it to individual congregations, but I know with 100% certainty that they won’t do that. They are a bunch of hypocrites and liars who expect and punish individuals to obey the rules, yet feel that somehow they are excused and free to do as they as please. As a child who grew up as a Witness, I never would have believed this could happen, but now that my eyes have been opened, I see that it’s what has always been happening.
In my opinion it doesn’t really matter anymore what Brooklyn decides to allow or not allow because I see that the rank and file just simply follow whatever ever changing rules are put forward by the GB and they generally never ask any questions as to why. Most are content to just keep quiet and not rock the boat with any questions or concerns, and if there are any questions raised its always the same response. “Wait on Jehovah, He will make things right.”
So basically, in my opinion, Brooklyn has free reign to administer any changes or flip flops knowing that any voice of opposition is stifled within this religion.
Hi John!
It just seems unbelievable…! So unbelievable that I am on the verge to think these pictures are a very bad hoax! and to think there’s an obituary about Lillian Gobitas Klose on jw.org. But it is a 74 years-old case…
WELL … May I please just say to ALL commenters – please STOP dragging BROOKLYN into this! I am a native New Yorker (disassociated) and I just cringe when commenters apply a negative to Brooklyn. BROOKLYN is deemed as a city , one that is so beautiful and now rivals, price wise in real estate to Manhattan (NYC) . I get what your saying but please , the Watchtower complex sits on the East River opposite Manhattan ,the South street seaport (just down the river from the UN) , which are certainly the most beautiful properties. Please stop the Brooklyn shaming. I might add, the infamous Brooklyn Bridge which feeds directly to Cadman Plaza displays the biggest American Flag , how odd is that?
da’
No sweat da’. I found it unusual for commenters to use the expression ‘Brooklyn’ myself. Always referring to WT myself. However, the Bethel has now sold Brooklyn for an enormous amount of money and is relocating to Warwick. Good news for you, eh.
Let’s get the flags out and celebrate!
If any fines have to be paid for non compliance, this will have to come
out of the brothers pockets ( not even from K,H, funds) .
The practice now of placing literature stalls, and displays in public places.
Indicate the Org’s, policy… If the local authorities require a fee, this has to
be paid by the ones tending the stall. Because what they are doing is part
of their “Personal”. service to Jehovah.
Furthermore, If any accident or injury occurs, again, it’s the. brothers
responsibility. If an application has to be signed, It must be in the publishers
own name not the name of the W,T,Org.
Bring back William Wilberforce, and William, Lloyd Garrison.
Kind of brings back memories…let’s take a stroll down memory lane, shall we?:
To the brothers in Mexico: “It’s OK for you Mexican brothers to continue paying bribes to get that military ID card that says you’ve already served your military time (even though we both know that is a lie), that way you can fly out of the country all nice and legal. If you get called back in for active military duty…you are on your own bro! So, try not to get caught guys, OK? PS: BTW, We will not pay the bribe for you.”
Meanwhile in Malawi: “Don’t you dare pay 5 cents or is it 10 cents (?) for that political ID card that everyone in Malawi is required to purchase, even though there is only one political party in the country. Be firm! Stay strong! Stay neutral! PS: BTW, We will not pay that 5 cents or 10 cents (?) for you.”
Can anyone smell a H Y P O C R I T E?
Our dear brothers and sisters in Malawi suffered horribly and even paid with their lives, for hypocrites.
And bethel/gb/God’s earthly organization, if you are reading this, you should be ashamed of yourselves. This might be a good time for you to fall on your knees and beg Jesus to forgive you while there is still time.
I agree with some…I could show this to all my witness relatives and friends and it wouldn’t matter… They trust that the organization has God’s approval based on Bible doctrine. These other things are a result of man interfering… I have talked with some about my concerns and doubts. I showed my husband, (who is very conservative and extremely loyal to the organization) the Bible baptism pools in Korea and his response was, “that’s interesting”. So I’m saying all that to say, most witnesses won’t care about this or many other things. They just chalk it up to imperfections and “they are doing the best they can.”
Queen Elsa,
A valid point, I fear. However, when there are multiple situations and scandals? Is there a cumulative effect?
Our duty is clear. We must continue to show what is really going on in the WTBTS. As more and more information is exposed, the conditioning can and will be weakened.
Keep on keeping on, folks! This is a long battle and we must stay strong for those who are still entrapped in this pernicious cult!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Just one step away from Elders agreeing to fly the flag at the side of the Kingdom Hall platform/stage in various countries in the same way that they did at the Cedar Point Convention all those years ago or more legitimately displaying the United Nations flag or plaque alongside their new JW.org signs. Notice with interest how some poor Kingdom Halls with only a few members in the congregations in Africa display the JW.org sign and yet here in the UK I have yet to see even one. The local KH sign opening times is not just leaning against the wall inside the wrought iron fense that protects the KH entrance proper.
Hello Excelsior.
Well said! we must continue to hold watchtower up to the glare of publicity. I posted a comment on another website yesterday concerning the showing of the Chilean National flag in two kingdom hall`s. Another contributor accused me of being “ill informed”. In plain speak I made it up. Now this person claims to be an x jw. My retort was that she may have made a great escape but she never got away. I was not being unkind, I have absolutely no tolerance for watchtower apologist`s. I would not be surprised if the gb deployed tactical nukes on kingdom hall grounds. On a more sobering note I saw a survey taken on another website on another watchtower scenario. “Would you take a pill offered by the gb even if you did not know what it contained?” Let me be clear, the majority of jws said “no” but far too many said “yes”. Just one is too many. This is my greatest fear for my estranged family and the millions of others. Undue influence is not something to be taken lightly.
Jerry.
Cedars,
I don’t really understand why you posted this.
So, two congregations, out of how many worldwide, displayed the flag on this day. Obviously, this is against JW doctrine. However, I remember when a police officer died in my old congregation. The whole police dept. showed up and put up a US flag where the talk was being held (inside the hall). However, the BOE did not approve! They just knew they could avoid a scene if the talk went as planned and the flag was removed once the police left.
I guess my point is that you are pointing out one photo of a supposed hall that is displaying this flag and pretty much saying “see! look! how hypocritical”! This is fault-finding and I will tell you why.
First, we do not know if the photo is real. Maybe it is, but maybe it isn’t. Second, one or two halls doing this does not mean the society is changing their minds on this matter. Third, we have no idea whether the congregation is simply ignoring WT’s direction on this matter. Fourth, perhaps the WT has already instructed them to take it down. Fifth, maybe they are rogue halls that are disobeying the WT.
No facts have been confirmed! It saddens me to see you resort to this type of poor jounalism (just like in the recent child with cancer post fail by you).
This makes ‘apostates’ look bad.
Jay J – you may be prepared to jump through hoops to excuse Watchtower, even when photographic evidence is staring you in the face, and even when pro-Watchtower sites are reporting the story. I, on the other hand, am not. Reporting this story without being able to confirm what Watchtower instructions were on the issue does not make me a bad journalist. I simply report the facts and let people draw any conclusions they feel need to be drawn. And I note that, since your comment was posted, at least one poster from Chile has commented to confirm the pictures are authentic and that this practice is considered perfectly normal. So, your point?
@ jay j: If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. I’m not saying that every hall is Chile is displaying the national flag, but clearly some are, and not long ago this would be tantamount to apostasy. It is not like some little old sister brought out a flag and put it up. This was done with the full approval of a body of elders.
The logic that you use (“Oh! It CAN’T be with the approval of the Society,” etc) is just wishful thinking. It isn’t any more an aberration than the many, many, cases of abuse endorsed by the Witness leadership from the top.
It puts me in mind of an occasion when I attended my daughter’s school assembly. At the time, I was not disfellowshipped, but was on the skids with the local congregation, as my then wife and I were separated. Way back when, I was taught that if witnesses were directed to stand and SING the national anthem, we could stand respectfully. However, if we were invited to merely STAND, we could not, as to do so would be joining with the “worldly” people in a nationalistic observance. Well, when we were directed to stand and sing, although being disapproved by my brothers, I sat quietly and respectfully. Then I looked over at my estranged wife, her sister (who was the wife and daughter of elders), and the rest of her family, all STANDING.
Hence, this flag in the Kingdom Hall window surprises me not, but it still disgusts me. In my opinion, the whole religion barely resembles the one I joined thirty years ago. It is full of hypocrisy (of course, it was then too, but I didn’t know it yet).
The whole thing has gone to s**t, and I don’t feel a bit bad about walking away.
You said:
The logic that you use (“Oh! It CAN’T be with the approval of the Society,” etc) is just wishful thinking.
I am not saying that at all! I am not a WT apologist. They have proved themselves wicked! The entire point of my post is that Cedars is, once again, cherry picking information and posting without letting enough facts come to light. This is what many bottom-feeding news agencies do these days (e.g. infowars.com). Again, this is why JWfacts is much better a place to get real information, and not just heresay to bring more people to one’s own website.
Jay you really have got this wrong. Cedars blog and JWfacts are different type of sites. Cedars generally deals with current events as they unfold and welcomes peoples comments on those issues providing they are respectful. JWfacts deals more with JW doctrine and how it has changed over the years. Also he goes into much more detail than Cedars needs to in a blog.
Both sites though are excellent and are helping many escape from the Watchtower
PS If Witnesses believed in the immortality of the soul, the ghost of Lillian Gobitis would be spinning in her grave.
@jay j: I get what you are saying. Nonetheless, the report has “the ring of truth” and I am not sure it will ever be proof positive verifiable. jwfacts IS an awesome place for truth seekers to start, and because we find there the verifiable truth about the Malawi/Mexico scandal, it gives this report credibility.
Here is a place to talk about trends as they unfold. The truth will continue to be revealed, as it was in the case of the King family. Time will tell.
No problems with this determination of the elders of Chile, it is legal to install the flag in the celebrations of the independence of Chile, is a matter of a symbol, but it does not mean worship the flag, is in harmony with Romans chapter 13.
I’m from Chile, and this is normal in our country, no law of the LORD breaks.
vasali: I have to agree with you, here.
Does anyone remember what happened to Venus and Serena Williams, after they ran with the U.S flag on their victory at Wimbledon?
Though, as a true blue JW in my 20’s I would never even go near the edge of “Idolatry”, I am a Brit…. we were always told if the Queen was present at a function, then, it was a matter of conscience…we could stand. But, doing so in an auditorium when the National Anthem was played was viewed as an act of Idolatrous Allegiance.
If I sport a Tee shirt with my Father’s football team (West Ham, by the way… “Up the Hammers!”)… I register my support… is it an act of Idolatry?
Is there anything wrong in being proud of Team achievements and lend support? Is there anything wrong in supporting background and culture?
Have to agree with you vasili.
Hi GEM. I think both you and Vasali are getting confused between what is perfectly normal and acceptable, and what is perfectly normal and acceptable according to Watchtower literature. Since awakening from my indoctrination I have embraced my nationality and I am proud to be British. I would not shirk from celebrating the Union Jack if the opportunity presented itself. But surely you can understand that it would be different for JWs to do this, given the instructions in their literature (one example is quoted at the beginning of the article).
Are you familiar at all with the concept of double standards?
Seriously?! Witness children are told not to salute the flag and they have one positioned in the hall?! I really hope you are off your rocker, because according to all I know it has nothing to do with Romans 13, according to the organization… Do your research man!
JJay I certainly can see your point of view. I must admit when these pictures first surfaced a year ago I was in such disbelief I labeled them as B/S or been staged by some nasty vindictive apostate. Even now I must admit I am still sceptical. However if you were looking for another example from a neutral source of what looks to be a flag poll on a KH property follow the link below.
https://maps.gstatic.com/m/streetview/?ll=-36.7414822,-73.1039229&spn=0.18,0.3&cbll=-36.7414822,-73.1039229&layer=c&panoid=Bdczm259D9USxbDLNnbr_g&cbp=,249.75,,0,20.089996&output=classic&dg=ntvb
Bearing in mind how closely JW.org monitors apostate websites (e.g copyright infringement with unfavourable information), for the same KH to be displaying the flag in the window for 2 consecutive years in a row, would have to be done with full knowledge of jw.org directors.
Are jw.org directors changing their policies and procedures regarding a national flag. Well let me put it this way. This flys directly in the face of everything I was taught as a JW. Is this a case of flying a flag but not venerating it or is it a case of a hypocritical compromise to smooth things over and to get out of paying a fine. Each person must make their own decision. I believe this is a very poor decision on the part of the jw.org directors which has created further ambiguity around the flag and venerating it. I guess it’s a bit like going to a birthday party and because I didn’t buy a present and sing the birthday song, It wasnt really celebrating it. If they where trying to silence the voice of apposers they certainly haven’t done it. How ironic on the one hand they have got a flag been flown and on the other an arbitrary of a women who refused to salut it. I wonder how all those witnesses back in th 40s-50s who were getting beaten up and jailed for not pledging alliance to the flag would feel now seeing the dam thing now been flown in the front of a KH. Just makes me sick. What annoyes me even more is how the jw.org directors are free to change their minds anytime they like with out any repercussions. If I was to hang flag out side my premises because the council required it, I would end up in the back room or been viewed as an unofficial Judas.
@jjay
Why are you here?
@jjay
” this is why JWfacts is much better a place to get real information,”
I cant see anything about information on flags, on Jwfacts.
It does not keep us up to date, and give us room to discuss current issues. Or am I looking in the wrong place.
Hypocrites who feed on ignorance of their followers. Do not be surprised! Their Jesus teaches them that (Matthew 15:20) . . .to take a meal with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” REALLY!! Their hypocrisy stems from their master!!!
Vasili. would not be normal in western countries, the WT pride themselves on their UNITY, so where is the unity world wide, not there is it!!
Another lie from the WTBTS and its GB.
OH appearance is everything to the JW’s! IN America you could not go door[door if you had a beard? BC it represented rebellion so they said and was a bad image to the public, they might think we were Rebels or hippies they said but if you were a 300 1lb overweight JW wobbling breathlessly to someone’s door that is OK?
So you are a 300 1lb overweight publisher and you are going door-door telling people about the “BEST WAY” of life and it is OK to do tat but if you have a beard that the Creator gave you, you are a bad example and un-Chrsitian. Where do they get these Ridiculous, Archaic Ideas from?
The GB never wants to pay a bill or support the local cong when it comes to Money. Unless the local cong has over $5000 in the bank they say send it to us!
Jay J.
How crass of you to accuse John of bad journalism! The pictures have been verified get with the program.
Watchtower, hm? now here we have a cult that elevates bad journalism to stellar heights. Boasting of murdered children, Mexico Malawi, 607BCE, 1914, 1925,1935,1975, before 2000. It continues to vomit forth lies heaped upon lies. A ten year tenure as an NGO with the UN. Please do not insult Cedars or anyother thinking contributer to this website. Paedophiles hidden, 23,700 +- Candice Conti Need I go on? because I can. Now slither back to your evil murderous cult.
Jerry
so much for unity, one country would never dream of what those in Chile do, guess things change as with the wind with WT.
Jay J,
I suggest that if you are so saddened by Lloyd’s journalistic and investigative skills, YOU research whether the Bethel in Chile has authorised this, YOU verify the photographs, YOU check to see if more than 2 halls have displayed the flag etc etc etc.
It’s very easy to find fault, isn’t it? It’s much harder to get off your butt and do something! Lloyd has worked hard on this site, his videos on YouTube, and is working on a book. I should imagine that he would welcome YOU doing this research and providing him with an article for him to publish.
So, how about it, Jay J? Are you going to continue to be saddened by bad journalism or are you going to help the community by researching this yourself?
Peace be with you
Excelsior!