Growing up a Jehovah’s Witness is an experience that has shaped me in innumerable ways. To be fair, Watchtower’s influence on my young life did give me some benefit. Through my studies I developed reading skills and a genuine love of language at a young age.
I wasn’t afraid to speak in front of my class or to strangers, because I’d been doing talks at the Kingdom Hall and presentations in the field ministry for years. I even formed a few friendships that have lasted throughout my lifetime with peers I met at meetings. Aside from those few things though, I believe Watchtower’s teachings and policies did very little to prepare me for my adult life.
In 1989, Watchtower released the first edition of the book Questions Young People Ask Answers That Work, or the “YPA” book. I still remember being 7 years old and getting my copy at the District Convention. I was so excited to have a book “just for kids” that I could read.
Per my usual methods, I started perusing the book as soon as we got in the car – the pictures and chapter titles getting my attention straight away. There were chapters on parental conflict, time management, and even the great taboo of masturbation, all written with children and adolescents in mind. Though some of the topics were embarrassing, at that time I really believed the book would be able to help me answer any questions I had.
Instead, the opposite turned out to be true. The book was nothing but a propaganda piece with contents that did nothing but attempt to bolster my paranoia of the outside world.
All it did was sweep any real problems I might be having under the rug by offering the one-size-fits-all answer of prayer and guidance from elders for each and every one of them. Though it lacked any true substance, the YPA book soon became the go-to parenting guide at my house – a convenient tool for my parents to turn to when I was going through my teenage years, and a collection of often foolish advice that offered me no real support.
Looking back, I can see how Watchtower’s suggestions in this book and from the podium failed me in my life. The biggest problems for me lay in the areas of dating and marriage. By following the admonition to date with the intention of marriage and constantly using a chaperone, both in person and over the phone, at age 18 I found myself wed to a virtual stranger.
The truth is, though we had the blessing of congregation elders and our parents, my husband and I had never been allowed the time or privacy to get to know each other. At such a young age, frustration with real-life issues mixed with twisted Witness views on male headship, and the clashing of our personalities, led to the relationship becoming physically violent.
After a few attempts at fixing it, including getting some bad advice from the elders, and a situation requiring police intervention and a stay at a battered women’s shelter, I left Watchtower at age 19. Disfellowshipping and shunning soon followed.
The answers didn’t work.
My life experience and that of many of my peers leads me to wonder: Does Watchtower really care about kids?
I recently became aware of a second volume to the book of my youth, and decided to read the PDF download from JW.org. In it I find more of the same misguided nonsense that I grew up with: Witness children being counseled to avoid the world and follow Watchtower’s advice at all costs. Boys groomed to be family heads, while girls are encouraged to take a lesser role.
Education still takes the backseat to the preaching work. Homosexuality and its urges are described as “wrong desires,” and compared to rage as something that can be quelled. Youths are told to avoid “double lives” by limiting contact with school friends. Only one small section is devoted to eating disorders. And much to my dismay, the dating advice is the same: never be alone together and only date with the intention to marry.
This new volume even includes a questionnaire for both sexes where the man is to evaluate how well his intended “shows submissiveness” when he is deciding to pursue her. There is very little mention of seeking professional or legal help for any issue. The overall solution being offered to all problems remains the same: prayer and reliance on the guidance of congregation elders.
With such counsel being given, is it any wonder that Witness children worldwide are leaving the religion in hoards?
According to a 2008 study from Pew Research, only 37% of people raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses continue with the religion as adults. When you consider the many (a number of whom I’ve privately corresponded with) who stay just to keep the community and familial ties intact, one has to wonder how many stay true believers from childhood on?
It turns out, Watchtower isn’t so good at “inculcating” children as Deuteronomy 6:6-8 instructs. Instead, the organization seem to be setting kids up for failure and their often-inevitable exit from the religion.
So, where does that leave current Jehovah’s Witness children and teens? Between indoctrinated parents and Watchtower offering so little in the way of true guidance, many find themselves feeling overwhelmed and alone.
Fortunately, times have changed, and there are now a variety of ways to get help and direction. In developed lands, everything from help with continuing education, to health services, is easier to access than ever before. A simple Google search can provide links to a number of resources.
Most schools have a counselor or administrator that is willing to listen and offer guidance for life issues. There are toll-free hot-lines and community health programs that can help answer questions or simply provide a confidential way to discuss problems that may be troubling you. And of course, anyone who feels their safety is in danger can always contact a law enforcement officer.
Of course, the answers are rarely easy, but for many Jehovah’s Witness youths, just knowing real guidance is available is important. To any young personreading this article, please know: there really is a possibility for happiness outside of Watchtower. The struggles of life can be overcome, and true freedom from Watchtower’s undue influence is attainable.
Helpful Links:
United States:
National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA)
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/find-help-support
1-800-931-2237
National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)
https://www.nami.org/#
Helpline : 800-950-6264
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration (SAMHSA)
National Helpline:1-800-662-HELP (4357)
TTY: 1-800-487-4889
Website: www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
Suicide Prevention Lifeline
1-800-273-TALK (8255)
TTY: 1-800-799-4889
Website: www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
US Department of Education
United Kingdom:
Beat (Beating Eating Disorders)
https://www.b-eat.co.uk/
Helpline 0345 634 1414 Youthline 0345 634 7650
SANE Mental Health Helpline
0300 304 7000
https://www.sane.org.uk/what_we_do/support/helpline/
Student Finance
https://www.gov.uk/browse/education/student-finance
National Union of Students
https://www.nus.org.uk/en/advice/money-and-funding/can-i-get-higher-education-funding-in-the-uk/
References:
https://www.pewforum.org/2008/02/01/chapter-2-changes-in-americans-religious-affiliation/
Jeni – well written and great points. The advice on marriage is spot on. Especially dating for marriage and dating in groups. For the most part a person will always act well in a group. I mean if a person can not act properly in a group setting….well we all know that is some one to run away from and not marry. But often times people only show who they really are in private one on one settings.
Don’t mean to insult you but I always thought the youth book and the Family Life books were for simpletons. I always thought they were written by old men that hated women. Never read them and never had my kids read them. And yes I am still active.
Yes I dutifully read the original red edition. Didn’t stop the suicide attempts. God help me I dutifully studied this garbage with my own offspring (sorry kids). No it didn’t work in my day and it does not work today. I think they hate kids anyway so delight in giving pontificating advice to dupe and breed paranoia. Such a simplistic world view makes the jdub youth inadequate for the real world .but then again they don’t live in the real world or have proper jobs so maybe the advice works. Unless a child grows up and squanders their youth in pointless pursuits for the borg they are labelled weak , evil, worldy blah blah . Children are never forgiven for being young and fresh and wonderful.Just for being young there is always pressure to perform.ruthlee
ruthlee, I wish I had your ability to get through the junk and make such spot on comments that I find tremendously insightful. I am a verbose pig, it takes most people 50 words to make a point, 500 for me.
You write in such a direct and CONSISE way, hitting on all the points need to be made. You should have been a writer, a newspaper reporter. And for all I know maybe you are. Color me envious
great essay. I was reared as a jw and believed that sex was only with married couples. the youth book advised engaged couples to talk about sex and what their needs were but they weren’t allowed to participate. So many of my peers got married too young because they were so desperate for sex. Only to find they were incompatible. And whats wrong with trying marijuana? The youth book didnt give me a good start in life. far from it
I undestand your feelings, but if you say that sex is ok before marriage you are discarting the Bible a priori. If, as a Christian, you accept the Bible, then sex in a sense of fornication is wrong. Let us try to see the issue here: The YPBm youth book and family life book were written in a crapy, mosogenistic style…BUT what about the advise of the holy scriptures about not to fornicate? How do you feel about it? Should Christians accept the modern standards of living and abandon the Bible prohibition of sex outside marriage?
James – I strongly recommend you read “God and Sex: What the Bible Really Says” by Michael Coogan. It will give you a broader understanding of how the bible approaches sex.
“Fornication” is a word that basically refers to sexual impropriety, such as prostitution. It does not encompass all sex between unmarried people – although that is the meaning often given to it by fundamentalist Christians.
If sex between unmarried persons were truly frowned upon by God, then Jesus would not exist. When Ruth “uncovered the feet of Boaz” at Ruth 3:7, it wasn’t to give him a foot massage.
If you want to promote your personal definition of “fornication,” that’s entirely up to you – but please respect the religious neutrality policy of this website by not using our pages to espouse your private beliefs.
Thanks Cedars, I am not promoting anything except what most of us know about the Bible’s prohibition of fornication. I am not a fundamental christian either.
That’s good to know! :)
And just because most people know something, that doesn’t make it correct.
@Cedars. Hi Cedars. I am a regular commenter on here and I agree and enjoy most all 99% of the comments. They are good for all of us to have this open forum. I just wanted to say that your response to James about promoting his religious Ideas I feel are incorrect. I don’t think he was promoting his beliefs but just raising a question for people to ponder and discuss. There are Many people on here some religious, some not, who promote or at least freely give their opinion of God, the bible and whether God exists or not etc. Some even say how they switched from being a JW to being Born again and quote scripture quite often and even promote their new faith to a more or less degree. So in fairness to James I felt he was respectful and cordial and not pushy at all or trying to sell his religion. It was just his view of what he felt the bile says about fornication. It was a question raised for debate if we want to engage in it.
One thing we all enjoy about this site is the fact that we can discuss things openly and we do not all need to agree or disagree on things.
He was giving an opinion is the way I saw it.
Personally, I felt he did it within the frame work of this web site and the rules that are here.
I happily apologize to James if he feels I jumped on him somewhat. One of the downsides to commenting in writing rather than in person is that it’s difficult to express yourself forcefully with, perhaps, the twinkle in your eye that would otherwise soften your words.
That said, I don’t think there is any need to remind ourselves what Watchtower has to say about sex. Most people who visit this website are well aware of it. In that context, James’ comment came across more as “Watchtower may be wrong about everything else, but they are right about fornication.” My comment, which drew James’ attention to information he may have been hitherto unaware of regarding the bible and sex, was designed to counterbalance that remark. In other words, Watchtower has had decades to get its narrow-minded views across. There is no need for us to use these pages to do their work for them by giving their fundamentalist, blinkered approach undue deference.
And for the record, I never said James breached our posting guidelines. I was merely intervening to make sure he didn’t.
I agree with Cedars. Discussing general concepts, like the existence of God or Jesus, is one thing, but talking about personal views on things like “fornication”, is just that, PERSONAL. I would head that under “Personal Morality” or “Personal Ethics”. When & with whom someone has sex, is a lifestyle choice, & as long as it’s between consenting adults, with proper precautions taken, no one gets hurt. Like Cedars said, we are all, all too familiar with the bible’s doctrines & WT’s dogma. We’re not children. We’ve had enough of those kinds of lectures, Thank you very much. Let the adults make up their own minds. Just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents’ worth. Thanx
I remember when that book came out and we read it at the study group. I didn’t really take too much notice of it tbh, as by then I was starting to have nagging doubts about the watchtower and their so-called advice. As an adult convert I used to eagerly await the ‘literature’ and devour everything, but it soon became obvious that every single problem all had exactly the same advice, exactly as you said…’prayer and reliance on the guidance of congregation elders’. I found myself groaning each time. I wish I’d have known the saying then that if you do the same thing every time you will always get the same result. Silly me for thinking that there’d be an actual gem of an answer.
I’m appalled about the questionnaire you mentioned that a young man should look for his intended’s submission, which begs the question how that affects the young women reading it. To be submissive to that extent sets up girls to be abused and ready to accept any kind of treatment, or at least be prepared to put up with an awful lot, as well as not learning how to have boundaries.
I’m only glad that a lot of youngsters are seeing through that, albeit onky because they were treated so badly like yourself Jeni. Great article. :)
I did not grow up in this religion but i was in it for 17 years. I was single for few years then navigated through dating / marriage for the rest of my JW life.
There was no resources for identifying abuse before and during marriage. There was no resources for how to deal with trauma after marriage.
As a result, I still suffer from trauma and PTSD.
Very insightful article. I agree, all WT ever offers for any challenges in life is simple, mindless cookie-cutter advice. In fact, as far as PRACTICAL, REAL-LIFE wisdom goes, IMHO, 99.9% of the bible is useless. (Most people I know, who believe the bible is full of practical wisdom, have never read it.) Also, I remember a book study (not sure if it was YPA, maybe it was the previous “Your Youth” book) where 1 paragraph explained how sex works. I felt so embarrassed for the poor reader who had to get thru that paragraph. lol As far as that whole “male headship” principle goes (which of course is not unique to the JW cult), any man who needs to rely on that concept as some kind of “crutch”, is not a man. That dogma was created by, & for, p*ssies, idiots, cowards, & bullies who are incapable of participating in a 1-on-1, EQUAL relationship with another human being. More crappy, UNwise, destructive advice from WT!!!
I think the men that wrote those books were or are latent homosexuals. I think they secretly hate women. I never understood how they could publish such crap.
I agree. In fact, I would say all mainstream religions are misogynistic, some to insane extremes.
…in a sense I agree. The misogenistic approach of the legacy left from late 1800s had been felt in the publications up to late 1980s. I feel, thouhgh, that the present day articles are somewhat different in style and with a bit of parental input from other sources offsprings may receive a balance advice.
Markie, you may not know it but you are seriously 100% correct. Remember Ted Haggard (The Last Temptation of Ted http://www.gq.com/story/pastor-Ted-haggard) the leader of the 50 million US Evangelicals? The guy was a mega church (25,000 members) head pastor (married father of 5) living in Colorado Spings. He was huge in the anti-gay, Focus on the Family, group lobbying the US and state legislative leaders to not pass any kind of gay rights bills. (I’m just telling the story, not promoting a Pro or Con position, hear that VoiceofTruth?)
Pastor Haggard was mentioned in rumors as a gay man who hired gay prostitutes when he was out-of-town in Denver. He also bought and smoked meth with the prostitutes. You can imagine how outraged he became when asked about the rumors attacting the questioner since he was THE point man fighting evil homosexuality. After all he spoke with Pres Bush every Monday morning being a big time Pres of the Evangelical movement and as anti-gay as any human.
Well now, it turned out all the rumors were completely true. He was dismissed from the huge church he founded and went into some goofy pray-away-the-gay program here in the Phoenix area. To the guy on the street how could the most important gay basher in this country, be gay?
There was even a US Senator from Idaho that was caught at the Minneapolis airport trying to pick-up a cop, he thought was a gay man, in a sting operation. This man was also very anti-gay.
I suspect those who scream and condemn the loudest may also be gay. Many studies have shown the same thing. Weird huh?
Read this paper for more info-X3oDMTByc2tqNmZuBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw–
I don’t know about you, but I have never been too sure about Stephen Lett.
Whoops my links blew up, lost in translation. These are the links to studies I was writing about.
Those who scream out the loudest against gay right, may be gay
Studies and Articles—-
http://www.landman-psychology.com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal.pdf
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/105/3/440/
http://news.yahoo.com/study-homophobes-may-hidden-homosexuals-194806808.html;_ylt=A0SO81YRf9lSxGYANTzBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByc2tqNmZuBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw–
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/study-proves-homophobes-are-nothing-more-than-closet-homosexuals-what-do-you-think/question-140910/?link=ibaf&q=homosexuals+who+are+homophobic
@Art Fern,
I agree: “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”
The biggest gay-banshers are either closet homosexuals themselves or have strong homosexual feelings they are supressing.
In fact, I found that in the organization you could often determine what an elder’s vices were simply by watching for the things he most strongly condemns. I saw it time and again:
-An elder slams internet porn all the time: he’s addicted to it.
-An elder often speaks out about heavy drinking: he’s a weekend drunk.
-An elder condemns adulters vehemently: he’s got a mistress and kids by her.
Although we cannot say this is a fact in every case, I’ve seen a number of cases where it holds true. If they are not currently engaging in the practice, there is a strong desire toward it, which is why they speak out so adamantly against it.
WS
Very well researched and very well written, and this article shows examination not only of issues but also resolutions to assist in moving forward. No one can say this is “an axe to grind”; it’s a great post to assist acclimating to the world after Bethel or JW’s.
Although I can’t throw all the blame on Watchtower, I think their advice ruined all my relationships on one level or another. Usually the problem wasn’t the woman I was dating, it was me. I just took the religion too seriously for any normal relationship to develop.
But I certainly wasn’t prepared for dating after I left, and this I can place most of the blame on the religion. For one, being a single brother, especially a ministerial servant and pioneer, it was a lot easier for me to find a girlfriend, because there were so many single sisters and fewer single brothers. After I left, I slowly came to the realization that I was no longer the big fish I used to be. As it turns out, the average woman isn’t all that interested in a grown man who never went to college because he was devoted to a brainwashing cult. (Who knew?) Especially in the college city I moved to.
But I’ve gradually removed all Watchtower teachings from my mind (including their advice on dating), gotten a real career in science, and am living a much happier life. Great article. One I never thought I’d read but rings so true.
ALL WT “advice” (READ: “propaganda”) is designed to alienate & isolate their members from the real world, thus consolidating their grip.
Yup. Their “advice” works great, as long as you plan to never leave the organization, never get a good education, never fall in love with a non-Witness, never befriend a non-Witness, never question anything the Governing Body says or does, never this, never that, never live the life you’d truly like to live. Did I cover everything?
I think you did.
Good for you man! Love your writing style, tragic stuff but funny as well you know.
Jeni, what a great article.
In particular, I appreciate that you end by acknowledging that many problems do not have easy, simple solutions and you followed up with practical suggestions. There are qualified people that CAN help young people navigate the oft treacherous teenage years, and they are rarely–if ever–found in the Kingdom Hall.
Well done!
Oubliette
…I think most young witnesses are completely unprepared for marriage, and really life for that matter. And what woefully little statistics that have emerged attest to that fact.
@POW. I have a good one for you here. I was a new JW barley 20 years old.I was excited to having found the “truth”. I met a newly converted single JW lady 12 years older than me! She had a child already. We sort of hit it off but I kept saying wow well she is beautiful but I am only 20 years old and she doesn’t work and nI don’t have a real Job etc.
Well, we went out a few times in groups and after about 2-3 months the pressure from the Elders and
CONG started saying hey you guys are dating so you need to get married! I was SCARED but the pressure was thee so within about 4-5 months from meeting her we got married! My father a NON JW told me Son, Do not get married it is to much responsibility for you and you have no full time work etc. Good Loving fatherly advice. So we are on our honeymoon in Europe at a JW assembly and
I see her talking to some GB member or special speaker in a deep conversation and I ask her what is all that about? So she said Oh I needed to talk to a SPIRITUAL older man and I needed help> What kind of help do you need I asked? She said well, I am still in love with this other Brother! He is so wonderful! Well, that made me feel real good. 20 years old only a JW for a year with a 32 year old JW lady who is in love with another Man and I am married like 2-3 weeks now.The elders would say oh don’t worry about the age difference bc in a few years Armageddon will be here and we will all be the same age and be young in body and mind!
I bit hook, line and sinker.
It has been a very rough road and bc I am a good guy somehow I made the marriage work the best I could but had major, major, Major problems over the years. I knew I made a bad choice but I was afraid of being DF’d if I left her. Somehow I survived. Her love was and is and always will be the WT org over me and everything else in our lives. Currently we do not live together but I attribute the mistake to the policies of the WT org
on dating and forcing unprepared people into marriage. It is a devastating arrangement.
Holy Connoli, that’s a very sad story. I have personally seen similar examples more times than I can remember of men and women marrying for the wrong reasons. Our kids married their spouses without ever having dated anyone else. The Witnesses make the whole dating thing such a pain, as parents you are so glad when they decide to get married that the headache is over of worrying about anyone in the congregation seeing them alone together. How ridiculous.
When I was in the world I dated a number of guys before I got serious with someone and then we lived together for two years before we got married. I am not promoting that for anyone who wants to lead a Christian lifestyle, but I was sure who I wanted to marry by then and we have stayed together ever since.
Marriage should in no way be taken lightly as it is far too painful if it’s done too hastily. Sure sometimes it works and everyone should try and make it work as it is so important. Anyway, so sorry you had such pathetic advice from so called wise elders.
@Meridith J. I try to look at the upside to a bad situation.She had a child who I adopted and love and I also had 2 other sons from her DESPITE her not wanting any children bc the end was so near and she just wanted to PREACH! I am serious and even to this day that is all she wants to do. It has always been frustrating to me bc the house was always messy and nothing was organized,shopping was never consistent and bills would pile up even though I worked and made decent money and I al;ways believed in paying bills on time and doing things right.My Father always taught me to have little or no debt
and pay bills on time. Common sense right. She never would do that and it cause a lot of issues. Since she did not work I just wanted a normal home life and I could never get it. It was obvious to me the reason was and is bc if you spend all your time knocking on doors and being a Gypsy magazine sales person and you are SO FOCUSED on
Pioneering and meetings and trying to SAVE all the WORLDLY people something has to give and what gave was a Normal Marriage and normal household. She hated to work and I believe used it as a excuse to pioneer. Last APril I invited her to go to Hawaii and she said oh yes, let’s go. So the plans were made and I was ready to pay for it and about 2 weeks before we were to leave she said I am so sorry I have an assembly that week and cannot go? I said can you rearrange it to go to another one, it isn’t like there will never be another JW assembly lol. Oh no sorry , I have a 5 minute experience I HAVE to give about the Joys of pioneering! This is just one experience there are hundreds like that. How many couples would be overjoyed to take a vacation to Hawaii together? She would rather wander the streets like a Gypsy magazine salesperson to get her “HOURS” in than make her family/husband happy. There would be days even weeks when I would keep asking her to bring home a certain brand of coffer I like or cetain kind of fruit for my smoothie or I needed a few shirts from the dry cleaners to be picked up etc and 90% of the time I would end up doing it myself bc she would “forget” or get to busy in the Field service e or some other JW event.
Rarely would there be a dinner on the table. Maybe 3 times a month but she would eat out almost everyday as she was out in FS and maybe bring me home a 1/2 of leftover Sandwich or left over meal she did not finish. I am not kidding about this stuff I am saying. The Watchtower came first always. I would get so upset at all this time she was devoting to her “bible studies” with so called love bombing
and ALWAYS had time for her STUDIES and WT events but nothing for me or the family. When I became a fairly successful business person she saw that as an opportunity to spend more money on her things and herself bc now sh thought I have money and I am going to spend it!
When I first married her I had worked previously for about 3 years part time unloading trucks at the shipping docks in Oakland California. As a prudent young man I had saved up over $5500 and this was in 1974 or so. After we got married I shared with her that I had saved up a little money and maybe we should think about getting a small home instead of paying rent. She said How much do you have? I said I saved over $5500 dollars.
She said Oh My God!
I don’t know anyone that has that kind of money, Let’s spend it now before Armageddon comes bc the bible says they will be throwing the gold and the Silver into the streets and money will be worthless! That is her mind set and still is to this day.
The end is near let’s do nothing except pound on doors.
The bottom line is the WT way for dating and marriage is ridiculous and look at all the divorces in the JW religion.ALl the unhappy marriages are proof and how many just stay together for economic reasons or fear of leaving the WT and family things.
Cult warning #1, the organization demands are more important than marriage, father or motherhood. A faith that advises a pastor to take a few years off to concentrate on the man’s family would be an indication you are in a good place. You won’t see that in a KH.
There is logic in keeping people so busy, riding the WT treadmill while keeping them away from worldly people and non-JW publications in isolation. Otherwise they risk your waking up and looking at all the crazy stuff, the BS lies that have been replaced by New Light which will turn out to be BS to be replaced by newer light. If this were Truth, would it have to be wiped off the collective conscience as they did with 1975? Is this were Truth would they fear your becoming educated, well read, mixing with non-JWs, would they need to use your friends and family as penalty for wavering, questioning?
As far as living together, I have moved 180 degrees vs my younger self. I’m not thinking about a couple that go out a couple of times and think it would be “neat” to try living together. What I had in mind is a couple that have dated for some time and love being with each other no matter what they’re doing. If you are exclusive and thinking about marriage living together might be extremely beneficial. You can find out if you are compatible in all areas or if their is a problem of selfishness, domination, desire to control or sexual incompatibility in a lower risk situation. I married at 22 to someone the same age, the first sexual experience we had was the night of the wedding, and it was horrible. Weird since she was a little on the wild, pushing the boundaries, side. She hated innercourse and no matter what I or doctors tried, nothing changed, yet she was desperate to have kids. She would take her temp and when she thought she might be fertile she would call for me to get it over, no kissing, hugging, sweet nothings unless “move your head, you’re blocking the TV” or “hurry, will you just concentrate” count. So after 7 years and 2 kids she filed for divorce. For all the money and pain, loneliness and desparately missing my kids, it wasn’t worth it. Had we lived together, I would have discovered that she never intended to work while I got my degree, meaning I worked two jobs and went to college never getting much sleep, and that she and her mother wanted kids badly, as well as finding out that she hated sex outside my playing the role of a Drone Honeybee. Nothing hurts like rejection and waiting for years, being good, to only find lead not gold at the end of the rainbow. When someone was as she, also being cut out are all those nice things that might be called foreplay or even affection, so there was no kissing or hugging ever even if doing so had nothing to do with intimacy, for fear doing so could later lead to sex. That’s my point of view anyway, I would never want anyone else to go thru such experiences.
Damn that was depressing. I need a drink.
Seriously though I’m sorry to hear that. It shows the serious flaw in JW thinking when it comes to compatible relationships. Many JWs think that being compatible means that you’re both witnesses. That’s it, that’s all it takes to make a good marriage. This terrible logic has led many into unhappy marriages.
@VoiceofTruth, to use the kind of language that you used in your comment shows that you also ignoring the Bible. Since when do Witnesses say “F’ing”? When I was going to meetings, we weren’t even allowed to say gosh, golly or gee because it was short for God. We weren’t allowed to even say freaking because it was too close to the word that you used. Do you really think that by leaving out the middle letters that you weren’t using “filthy” language?
You say you will follow Jehovah? I don’t think you are following Jehovah, unless it’s common for JW men now days to use that kind of language.
What Art Fern said in his comment, was not filthy, but your comment was. Even calling him a dumb ass shows that you are not following the JW religion, that is, unless that is the way JW men talk now days. I can’t imagine that you would use that kind of language at the Kingdom Hall.
It is so funny that you will laugh your head off when Art Fern and people like him die at Armageddon by having our bodies torn to pieces and burned. That comment shows what a psychopath you are. If you remember what the Bible says, it says that God doesn’t want anybody to be destroyed but you must be better than God, right?
By the way, “VoiceofTruth”, can you describe Jehovah for us? What does he look like and how did he produce all that’s on the earth out of thin air? If you can come up with that little bit of information, I might believe in him.
Voice of truth,
Spoken like a true, mindless Watchtower drone. Are you being facetious?
Otherwise I’d have to ask what you are doing on an apostate site? Careful, the imminent war of Armageddon may strike at any time and what if at that point you are on this site? Guilt by association you know. I mean how will Jah’s Angels be able to differentiate you from the rest of us sinners!
WS
Sorry gang, I didn’t make a friend with my comment at least not with Voice of Truth. I guess I hit someone’s sensitive nerve. Now and then I see this type of response in the comment section following other Apostate channels, and you wonder if people read and think about what they have written as there is some hypocracy in trashing another person. We must be doing some good because of the disgust and defensiveness faithful (who shouldn’t have any interest in Apostate channels) express.
I know I get personal in writing about my own experiences, maybe I should just be more vague about the circumstances, but I’m pretty open and maybe others who have had tough marriages can see that they aren’t alone but part of a large group who tried to follow the rules and were hurt as a result. I apologize for the persons response it was pretty vulgar and angry, I crossed a line from his point of view. I don’t want to seem as if I’m advising or suggesting that others break any rules, rather I was just telling my story for whatever it’s worth.
@Art Fern
You should not have to apologize to anyone. Your comments were valid, heartfelt, and on-topic. If certain people cannot handle hearing the truth, then this site is not for them. I have personally appreciated all your comments.
WS
Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot handle candid sex talk.
@Meredith J
“Our kids married their spouses without ever having dated anyone else”
As a JW teen, I lived a double life and dated a few “worldly” girls in high school. Although I went through quite a bit of mental anguish having to constantly keep up the lies to my parents and the congregation members, I think the experience of having dated a few other people before I settled down was a good one.
I kept seeing one of the girls from school for a few months after high school graduation, but eventually broke it off and committed myself to the JW Org. What a mistake! Looking back, I realize that she really cared about me and I regret breaking her heart for a cult.
My wife also lived the double life as a teen and dated, so although we married young, at least we had some experience dating. We always got along fairly well in our marriage – until I awoke from the cult delusion. Ever since that time the relationship has been strained.
WS
Sorry about your story,what a bummer, but I feel that it has a common thread…all of us have the potential of making a bad decision, but what happens to many of us JW’S is really others heavily influence our choice, then take credit for it when it seems to be a good one, and completely disavow us/it when it’s not..even decisions like selling home, quitting job, moving to area of need,reaching out and so on…Basically it’s a matter of faith and trusting in prayer versus counting the cost. …we use one line if it’s success and another for failure.
Where do all these crazy women come from???
@ Art Fern
Just thinking, maybe ur Ex is a lesbian.
@A4
The JW cult seems to attract those who are not quite stable.
(and if you are mentally stable when you join up, it can and will do a number on you as well!)
WS
@ Winston Smith
LOL U got it! In fact, their Recruiting Slogan should be: “If you’re not quite stable, this is the place for you!” lol
The men who write for the Watchtower, for the most part never had children and were the product of parents who were brought up in the religion decades ago with the idea that women and children were meant to be seen and not heard and had to be “obedient and submissive” to the man of the house.
JW men think that the most perfect wife would be a very young Jehovah’s Witness girl who has never lived on her own and has grown up under the thumb of their father so that they’d always be “submissive” to their new husband because once they have lived on their own, they develop a more independent attitude so they want them young so they are used to being under the thumb of their father and haven’t developed an independent attitude.
This kind of girl can be “beaten” into submission and who is going to believe her without witnesses to the abuse and even then, when this girl is beaten by her husband, the Society’s answer to that abuse is that the girl did something to provoke it, which is in all their literature and has been for decades and decades.
That is the mind set of JW men and boys. It’s never their fault when they beat on their wives as the wife wasn’t being submissive and so it is always blamed on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether she is telling the truth or not, she won’t be believed, no matter how bad the abuse. It is a religion where women are treated as nothing as compared to the man.
That treatment of women comes straight from the Hebrew Scriptures, just the same as slavery was promoted in the Hebrew Scriptures and even in the Greek Scriptures, women were to be quiet and if they had any questions were to “ask their husbands”.
What that produced in these males was the idea in their heads that no woman was going to tell them what to do. They expected that whatever they wanted from their wife and children was owed to them, simply because they had a penis.
The Samuel Herd talk tells it all and that is the way most all JW men think, and that is that women’s brains are smaller and they just aren’t equipped to be the head of the house. In other words, women are like little children who need an “adult” man in their life to tell them when to get up and when to eat and what to do and not “argue” with their man. They are to cook and clean and take care of their man. Herd said that a woman’s role is to take care of their man.
It is living in the dark ages, for women in the Watchtower Society and that is because it’s men who run it and all those men are living in a fantasy world and unfortunately millions of women have bought into being brainwashed into going along with being mistreated like that because they think God is directing the Organization. Even after being beaten by their husbands, it is the wife who will go begging the husband to “forgive” them for making them hurt her.
What that does to a woman is to make her a servant or slave to a man for the rest of her life. Men may like the idea of this unpaid servant/sex slave who can’t escape unless they are willing to be disfellowshipped for adultery but what these women are really thinking to themselves is that they can’t wait for this guy to die. That is the kind of marriage that the Watchtower Society produces.
Women in marriages like this are not happy. They suffer in silence or get out and suffer being shunned for leaving the marriage. It’s a trap that very few JW women know has happened to them until they get stuck in a marriage like that and don’t know how to get out.
Nobody knows what a marriage mate is like until you actually live with them but then it’s too late, that is, if you are a JW. “Worldy” people can get a divorce and remarry without being shunned.
It really is like the Dark Ages, and a trap. Once married, the only way out is divorce, whether due to adultery or not, then disfellowshipping (unless she is lucky enough that her husband commits adultery, or dies).
I knew a family in a nearby congregation where the father was the presiding overseer (back when they had that title still). He was a major philanderer and had fits of rage at home, beating his wife, children, and even their pets.
When this all came out it was a huge embarrassment for the local organization. The wife, a baptized sister, was able to get her baptism annulled on the grounds that she had made the decision under duress, under threat of physical violence from her husband. A terrible situation due to the archaic gender roles promoted by this organization. At least the wife was able to get away from him and the organization.
WS
It really is like a trap isn’t it. There are conditions placed on the love in a marriage among the witnesses. A young witness is too naive to see that though. They will idealize witness marriage as “the best kind of marriage” which has led so many into BAD BAD relationships.
Growing up in NYC I would see the sisters fawn over the bethelites. One sister who’s mission in life was to go to bethel and marry a bethelite got her wish. The bethelite who was a country boy just wanted to marry a city sister. It was perfect. She got what she wanted and so did he.
Fast forward to a year later. She didn’t make the cut as a bethelite and as a result they both had to leave. They moved to an inner city TINY apartment because they were broke. She was disappointed in HIM because he no longer held the bethelite title and neither did she. The result was a clearly unhappy marriage.
I’ve witnessed brother do the same thing with that pioneer sister they always wanted. This idea has been further exasperated by Tony Morris’ idiotic statement about men who are 23 and not servants in the congregation being bad marriage material.
In reality, 23 and not a servant might mean that they are more suitable as marriage material. LOL.
WS
So now ToMo is not only a judge of fashion, but also a judge of character? Is there no end to their talents? LOL
@ chiafade
I’m in NYC also and it was disgusting how these woman acted around Bethelites. One “sister” (not a Bethel groupie) said these boys are just rejects from from their hometowns and aren’t a big deal there. Anyway, I remember an older “sister” would want everyone to pay for the Bethelites when we went out to eat. It got to the point where I said I wasn’t down with because I had to pay for myself and my wife. It was like social pressure and it got ridiculous. Witnesses don’t worship Mary or Jesus, but they worship Bethelites and the Organization, no difference.
I have never been a baptized JW, just very close to the religion, I eat the book and recommend it ” “Journey to God’s House” written by a Bethelite. The two areas the author found most shocking was the amount of alcohol kept in rooms as well as consume the the spiritual giants housed within, as well as the homosexuality he believed to have been going on for some time. It was his opinion that many of those who had been in-house for years and unmarried, were gay. I have no idea if others called to Bethel had he same thought, but I thought the book was excellent.
It shows how desperate they are for “leaders”. In the old days, even if you were 20-young and had been baptized at tween years, most elder bodies wouldn’t nominate said man for a post, because 1) he’s a walking gland of testosterone, and 2) lack of seasoning as an adult.
It will not be surprising when this wave of young MS and elders are caught in affairs of the heart / testicles and ego-based rulings.
I hear these incidents of verbal and physical abuse of wives happens more frequently than one would think, and in some cases elders put the blame on the wife, but I have heard of opposite cases where clear and level-headed elders see an abusive man as abusive, but it usually meant the husband was letting other areas of care for children and wife slide, as well.
It was a great eye-opener to see how “non-JW” husbands and wives managed egalitarian relationships, and for a real horizon broadening when I met my first gay and lesbian couples who didn’t have a rule book or set expectations regarding roles. Yes, there was conflict, but because there was a solid foundation for a relationship, they were able to negotiate and reach an equilibrium that sustained their relationships.
Another note, on the adultery thing, I am hearing a one-sided deal here as though women don’t “wander”? In particular since the script went that he was entitled to fulfillment but she was not–at least, that’s how the literature wrote it, even if the experience of most couples was opposite. It left a lingering question in my mind whether the typical JW wife ever experienced the “O”?
I doubt they do seeing how miserable they are ! ruthlee
Always so interesting (sickening) to witness their demeaning attitude toward women while out of the other side of their mouth, they supposedly will respect women as annointed judges and rulers with Jesus in heaven. Or maybe there will b alot of cooking and cleaning to b done there too.
Great Article! I agree with you, the YPA book didnt provide any answers. I grew up as a jw and remember that assembly. My parents instead of giving me a sex education told me to read YPA.
I was very depressed because I was going through many physical and emotional changes as a young adult and needed guidance.
The high school I attended provided free professional sex education to all the students, but needed the parents approval. Of course my parents objected because the teachings werent biblical!
The lack of knowledge led to me being naive and inocent. At 21 I was manipulated by a man that was 12 years older than me. I ended up being pregnant and expelled. Received no moral support from my parents and told me that I had to leave the house. No job, pregnant! they were told by the elders if they let me stay at home they would loose their Priveldges.
They chose the priveldges over me.
So they didnt provide me with a sex education, nor gave me any moral support for the consecuenses of it. This made me fall into a deep depression. Not sure how I survived it all alone.
I actually still have my original copy of the YPA book. I remeber also reading and wondering what can We do?? Everything was wrong. Even flirting was a sin!
I would never have my kids read that book.Instead I Would communicate with them about the birds and the bees as some call it. And I will also let them receive sex education from a professional at their school.
I really feel sorry for the children that are jws!
@Bati. You are an amazing person Bati. I do not know how you survived. I cannot imagine being kicked out at 21 and pregnant and to be on your own. That tears at my heart. How did you survive, where did you go at 21 years old like that? You seem to have come out it well and happy and I am so glad for you. I would love to hear your story or more parts to it. It is encouraging.
I know when I was 20 years old I was “forced” into marriage as a new JW with a 32 yeard old JW bc we liked each other a bit and in my youth I was infatuated withthis lady a bit and she w me so the Elders noticed it and pressured us into marriage after only a few months. I knew immediately after the marriage I had made a HUGE terrible mistake
and I did not even know the person I had married. It has been a bad marriage with many good things in between but I tell you the struggles were so UNNECESSARY and bc of WT policy on dating they forced us into it. Somehow I survived although we do not live together. The WT is bad news, bad NEWS, bad NEWS. iT IS THE SAME WITH THEIR VIEW ON bAPTISM. tHEY WANT YOUNF KIDS 10-18 YEARS OLD TO GET BAPTIZED AND PUSH THEM TO DO THAT AND MAKE A LIFE LONG DECEION TO DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO EVERYTHING THE WT TEACHES Forever! Then if you change your mind or say hey, I was 12 years old and did not have a chance to think or analyze on my own you are DF’s and your family and friends cannot talk with you. WTF kind of religion is that? Same w marriage. If you date a person you need to think about getting married right away!How can you make a life long commitment to a marriage after a few months of dating a person? WT is so WRONG and they do these things to control their members.
What? Communicate with your children and educate them? We can’t have that. We need to shove all that Watchtower propaganda down their throats and when they can’t handle the realities of life kick them out, but tell them we will pray for them.
Being facetious of course.
WS
In the USA, it has been contention for years between the “social conservatives” and “liberals” in who has access to educate children. The conservatives achieved inroads to allow conservative parents like JW’s and other evangelicals to deny sex education, so now we have your plight Bati where parents refuse to communicate and educate. Then, blame from same politicians and religious types when an individual without knowledge is easily led into issues.
Hopefully, God will be merciful on your parents for their negligence and pride.
I would also add that JW’s today are spared the role-playing that projected roles for ideal JW wives and husbands nearly every month during the Sunday lecture. It sometimes projected an arguing husband and wife, contrasting the strong-willed, argumentive woman to the meek, submissive wife. Rarely would it contrast the way an ideal husband handled things to the less than ideal husband. As long as he wasn’t drunk, gambling, smoking or out philandering, a man was “the image and glory of the Lord”.
Which brings up the current JW theology over-emphasis, based on the “traditions” of the first century. Jehovah–>Christ–>husband–>woman–>(Children?), so anyone notice how the woman is distanced from Christ? Yet, Corinthians corrects this a few verses later (which as some suspect highlights the multiple writers contributing to these “epistles” over time) by uniting woman and man, as Jesus stated.
So, if you’re a single, divorced or widowed woman, does that mean your rolling the dice to hope Jesus knows you and puts your name in the book of Life? Pretty clear, you need a man–an organization of men–to save you.. Good luck kids..
Jehovah–>Christ–>husband–>woman–>(Children?)
@A4
I think you left out an important piece of that chain of command for JWs (I realize, of course, that you were going for the actual biblical teaching). For JWs it should be:
Jehovah->Jesus->WATCHTOWER->husband->wife->child. Does this not further distance the woman from Christ?
WS
@BATI, your story is chilling, I can’t imagine how hurt and lonely you felt. As a dad, I could never do that, I could not tell a son or daughter that because of a “sin” I wish they had never been born, or they could not live in my clean and pure home because they might infect the others. I do understand how the Elders pressure and manipulate to push parents to do these things.
You had the inner strength to make the best of this terrible situation. I applaud you for enduring.
Thank you for sharing. You have unconditional support from those of us and the many apostates. Bless you
Man…the titles to these articles just keep getting better and better. “How the Watchtower Stole Christmas” and now this. I lol’d as soon as I saw it.
Keep them coming!
Beautifully written article, Ms. Lundblom. Your writing style is so captivating!
If only I had paid attention to the warnings regarding mastaurbation, I might be able to use an iPad rather than this bulky Braille keyboard. Please friends do not become involved in this tool of Satan, it is not to be used for anything other than passing water until you marry. And then it’s use is restricted to the creative purposes for which it was intended. My world is very dark and for what a few moments of pleasure interspersed with days and more days of piercing guilt.
It’s interesting just how religion closes in on sex, fully aware that if you take complete control over what someone does when they re naked, you control the person. Of course high control churches start out as early as they can in planting seeds of guilt and fear. They want you to stop and think about spending the little money you might have on items that bring you a measure of happiness, ice cream, a ride at the carnival, etc. They reinforce the thought that spending money belongs to them, or as they put it, to Jehovah because he needs all you have to make him happy. They must create fear and guilt to force you to pay rapt attention to their meeting speakers. In addition it’s important to vilify learning about the world around you, having worldly pals, joining into celebrations noting important events. To not allow a child to find happiness in being a kid instead forcing the child to think first whether its OK, will my doing this make Jehovah unhappy, is abuse? A deity who’s happiness is dependent on the willingness of a child to be submissive in every way to the commands of the Watchtower is indeed evil.
@Art, sorry to hear about your blindness,,do you also suffer from hair growth on your palms along with unsightly warts?? Don’t say you weren’t warned!!
You know Pow my friend, paper cuts to your finer tips are really uncomfortable but try using a straight razor or a blade on your hands, OW, Owwie big time. Those contures that sneak up and before you know it you whacked off a finger tip or knuckle.
Of course I am being dopey, but in 6th grade the principal took an entire day telling us all about the birds and bees, he told the boys they could go blind if the did the big M word. Most of us had no idea what the term meant and no one had the courage to ask for clarification. Half thought it must have something to do with fishing. We were also told that acting on your sexual feelings was like starting a car, pressing harder and harder on the gas never being able to stop it because it was going so fast. If someone gave in, ahead would be a long road of suffering because you would never be able to stop doing it, night and day, alone or in school. Pretty scary stuff.
The YPA book reported that 95% of all men (and 90% of women) admitted to mastursbating at one point in time. The JW guys I hung around with as a teen used to say 95% admit it and the other 5% lied!
There does seem to be an unnatural fixation on this behavior in the literature. Oh that’s right, it was written by sexually repressed men living in a commune-type environment with a population that was 99.9% male!
WS
A former Bethelite I am acquainted with, once told me that his years there left him homophobic. He didn’t elaborate but I could see it in his eyes that something was very wrong.
I have been told the same thing many times that basically everyone mastuarbates frequently or rarely, all fairly normal humans do so. The figure I was given was something like yours 98% do and 2% lie. I wonder why a few religious organizations seek to make a big deal about this personal act. Really what’s the harm? Unless a person losses interest in the opposite sex, becomes compulsive and unable to control themselves, even doing so in public circumstances, why can’t the topic be left alone? I suspect that some people are more prone to taking uninvited liberties with members of the opposite sex because they have this horrible fear of “touching yourself” and going blind or being tossed out of your church. A buddy told me a story that when he was 29 and still unmarried all he could think about was making love, it would keep him up all night. Finally he went to a doctor who gave him a RX for a mild sleeping pill and told him it was OK to do what was necessary to relieve the tension. Immediately he makes an appt to speak with an Elder not wishing to take drugs or follow the 2nd recommedation. He was told to pray when he felt Satan tempting him and then take a long cold shower. I wonder why that didn’t work? Essentially he married the next woman he met who was “compatible religiously” and they, to this very day have a miserable marriage, but for a year or two sex kept it going. Afterwards they found they had nothing in common and little to talk about.
@Art Fern,
You are correct. Most experts agree that there are no health risks (either medically or psychologically) associated with occasional masturbation. Some people can get addicted to porn and such, but this usually stems from other issues.
The fact that this practice is not even mentioned in scripture leads to make one wonder why this org is so fixated on it. As was stated earlier it all comes down to one thing: CONTROL.
When my son came of age physically, I explained to him what it was and that it was normal.
WS
Want to hear something really funny? I was actually recommended, by an MS to go buy a ‘toy’. He told me he didn’t know how I could stand not having a guy in my life…. after I finished spluttering and trying not to die of laughter I realized that he was a frequent ‘partaker’ and I am not talking the emblems here!
What’s wrong with that? Toys can be fun & distracting. I recommend checking out ‘Toys ‘R Us’. Ooooohhh, wait a minute…..nevermind.
FWIW-Tara, I can give you a web address for a company that sells batteries in bulk for a great price. I use their rechargeables since I have a zillions of little electronic devices around the house, it saves a lot.
Give them a shot, I’m sure you go through of pile of the pricey devils, you might as get the biggest bang for your buck, they do last a long time = fewer interruptions to stop and make changes.
All-Battery.com
I remember well the ‘M’ issue! I also remember well studying with my parents the Youth book (red) in my early teens. Not a pleasant experience. By the way I never stopped masturbating myself and yes I went to Bethel and yes I did continue masturbating. In fact, if I had a son (even a daughter), I would encourage the practice of masturbation; not in a sense of arousing lustful thoughts in the mind, but just for eliminating the semen (in case of men) that makes you feel so unconfortable and not being able to think straight with the hight testosterone levels.
If you cannot wait for nucturnal emission, which in my opinion and experience as a teenager are worse, because they are always accompanied by sexual perverted acts in your dream, just listen to my advise: masturbation is not wrong! Fornication is a sin but getting rid of the semen that God intended to be produced in my testicles is far from wrong!
A “sister” once said that she would never marry a “brother” who masturbated because that would mean he was selfish and self-centered. What was interesting is this “sister” was so self-centered and thought the world revolved around her. Things that make you go hmm…….
Will,
Given that 95% of all men (98% by some estimates) masturbate, her choices will be very limited. Unless she willing to switch over to girls, where only 90% masturbate. But then I guess she can say that she is truly looking for ‘one in a million.’ How’s that going for her? Is she now a member of the “AAA” club – available after Armageddon?
WS
I know there’s a great joke in there somewhere. Maybe, She just can’t handle the ‘competition’?
OK,u think of something better.
I don’t find fault with the lady, some people always buy new cars, some have no problem with previously owned equipment.
If she prefers new and unused, that’s OK
@Art Fern
What, no test drive? Best to make sure everything works before you by!
WS
Had to add one more note, in the real world, when folks go to a “pastor” or “preacher man” for advice, there is no reticence for some ministers in handing-off a challenging issue to support groups–issues that a pastor with training in counseling realizes they are not equipped to handle. In these days, many religious groups sponsor support groups or have ready referrals to assistance groups.
Back in JW days, those elders who were up to the challenge of facing an issue brought to them could be confrontational with the individual deemed “a problem.” And, the “counseling” was primarily demanding or commanding that said person stop behavior or a “should” sentence. All phrases and confrontations that spur the natural rebellion inside us all. Just because those elders “helped” someone out of a bad situation doesn’t mean it was optimal or effective. Was the “problem” reformed, or rehabilitated?
This lack of trained, seasoned counselors and therapeutic resolutions remains an issue when entering JW-land, elders are not trained and seasoned for one-on-one “counseling” other than the oft-cited here “corral” the flock for submissive obedience to the Watchtower (= Jehovah) ultimate objective. Given the “therapist” is also a guard-dog, the individual seeking assistance will find themselves “on trial” rather than guided to solid assistance.
The only time you go to an elder is if you want your problem to get bigger and if you want the whole congregation to kbow. I go by what the Bible teaches, never put your trust in earthling man were no salvation belongs.
That’s actually very good advice
I placed this book with a classmate in 3rd grade. At recess a teacher took it out of the girls desk, confiscating it. I got upset (persecution complex kicked in right away) and the teachers were upset too. Eventually my elder uncle had to come in and calm the administrators down. The subjects in those books aren’t appropriate for grade school children. No body told me!
I remember expressing that the material in a public talk ‘Godly View of Sex and Marriage’ was unsuitable for under 7s of which there were many in our hall…not for prudish reasons but because children should find these things out at thier own pace and at thier personal level of curiosity…not have it foisted on them at a public meeting…especially when the brother giving it was clearly enjoying the deep discussion about masturbation…accompanied by ridiculous advice as to how to avoid it..’hands outside the sheets and gloves!’….he enjoyed every lascivious minuite of it … whats allowed in the marriage bed…whats not allowed…heavy petting in courtship… yuk yuk yuk…he loved pontificating about it… when I made my feelings known I was heavily critisised and pointed comments were made from the platform about ‘Women know your place’….. I do know my place …. finally.
I recall that at one point the TMS was having brothers give #4 talks on chapters from the YPA book. When it came time for the chapters on Masturbation the school overseer asked me if I would be comfortable doing it – I was 16 and already a fairly polished speaker – I think I said something like “no way, are you out of your mind?”
They ended up having some married ministerial servants do it (there were two chapters in the original book, so this was two weeks in a row). The first got through it okay. But the second one fumbled with his words and at one point said something like “so hopefully you can resist the urge to to, to, to…touch it” and the whole hall lost it. Too funny! At least they were smart enough not to assign the material to some 7 year old girl for her first talk!
WS
@Winston Smith. Well, At least they had a married MS give the talk. I am sure he was a Great “Master Debater” ! lol
One time when I was very young and newly married we were making love and we did a few things that the WT says are not approved by the BORG! After we were done I said WOW! That was great and my super duper Pioneer wife felt guilty
and wanted to pray for forgiveness at 1 A.M. in the morning! I felt like man, why pray about that?
Needless to say she is 150% into the BORG and whatever they say. Yesterday she was saying all the Changes in the ORG recently and the teaches proves that they have the truth? I said what about the changes in their position of Oral Sex?
She said stop it that is evil! We don’tlive together currently.
My uncle Joe was a football coach, the dad to three girls, I suppose I took the place of a son he never had. After a family party to celebrate the engagement of a much older cousin, Joe said goodbye and then turned to me and said “keep your hands on top of the sheets”. As we were driving home my mother asked me “What on earth was Joe talking about”? I had no idea but my big brother went crazy, laughing until he threw up. Later I was to discover that nature didn’t need hands, it could do things while you slept. That left you feeling like some weird sicko. Some of the guys did confess to various Elders to be told, yes it’s a sin but if you suppress the thoughts by thinking of Christ Jesus, your mom, when they came on nothing would happen while you slept. Gee what harm could possibly result from even more sexual suppression to the extent that you were dirty and sinful if something happened when you were dead asleep.
Sorry Voice of Truth, please don’t cuss me out again.
I’ll never forget as a kid laughing at the already dated photos in the original book. The clumsy dumpy girl dropping a tray of food on her mom! “Jah help me I tripped and I am clumsy!” Or the slick kid wearing sunglasses and jeans to the interview. Seriously – great stuff. Anyone else remember the quote in the sex and marriage article “sex soon became boring.” Umm no. Not in a normal relationship. But it was dropped in a way to make you think “that one act you all crave – turns out it’s boring and not all that great.” No – you’re confusing sex with the door to door work. This article barely scratched the surface of the hilarious insanity of the original book. Wasn’t this also the book where they quote a son who masterbates and admits it to his dad and his dad also admitted he had a problem with it at one time and they both cry. Seriously!!! Let’s imagine that:
“Dad my pants were too tight and I gave into urges!” *starts crying*
“Son I once also gave into urges of self love!” *starts crying*
A random C.O. Happens to witness this amazing moment and thinks “this needs to go into the book. And what was that about tight pants???”
^and that ladies and gentlemen is the prequel story of tony tight pants before he became a Governing Body Member
“Then is Finished the Mystery of the Tight Pants”
@phoenixrising and anonymous4. Great comments and very funny! Especially the last 2 sentences about a random C.O who became tight pants Tony!
Also A4, “then is finished the mystery of the tight pants”. Quirky, sharp humor!
Made me laugh. Yes, Sex can get boring bur NEVER the FS! That is why after going to 3-04 doors the JW’s do Return visits to chew up another 30 minutes and then head to the coffee shop as quick as they can. Now that is Boring. Just like SEX, they might need to try different positions of placing those magazines or pushing that JW ( Apple ) cart around at Metro witnessing. I heard if you Push it backwards it is more exciting! lol
I remember the old youth book had a chapter entitled “mastribation and homosexuality” basically implying mastribation leads to homosexuality. I don’t believe I ever read the whole chapter but I have to admit it kind of scared me. That book was so insulting and stupid.
I remember the old youth book had a chapter entitled “masturbation and homosexuality” basically implying masturbation leads to homosexuality. I don’t believe I ever read the whole chapter but I have to admit it kind of scared me. That book was so insulting and stupid.
And I remember that drinking to much water, before bed time and eating rich food led to masterbation, so if thats the case……
@Pow …and spicy foods… more hot pepper sauce?
@pow. I heard drinking to MUCH WINE leads to masturbation! Not Water.lol
I was only 10 when I got the talk concerning the big M. And it even included a built in discussion on the “unforgivable sin”, so I remember too much food and drink before bedtime was an issue, and at 10 years old, wine is not on the menu…
The old red youth book (full title, Your Youth – “Getting the Best out of It” as I recall) was an interesting conglomeration of JW propaganda, male chauvinism, homophobia, and old wives tales.
The terminology was really strange & sterile at times too. YPA did not get released until I was about 15, so I entered puberty with the old red book as the only tool JW parents had. When my dad told me about sex, all he did was read to me from the book’s chapter on sex – no other explanation. I was more confused than previously. I still remember that book’s description of sex near verbatim “the husband lies close to his wife. His male organ naturally fits in her birth canal. They both can get great pleasure from this.” At 11 years old I was fairly sure I knew what the male organ was, but the rest was a mystery.
When my son came of age, I made sure to provide good detail and use some tasteful diagrams from a sex education website.
WS
I recall Tony Morris III making that statement in his Rome, “tight pants” and Spanx/Spandex talk. I have no idea what possible connection could there be, a gay person fantesizes about a gay person while a straight person fantasizes about the opposite sex. Where the heck does the crossover occur? If you wanted to get technical the big M reinforces your sexuality rather than changes it. But Hey those folks say the craziest things anyway, I recall a talk about chickens that was a real head scratcher and had a moral to it somewhere and then there as a no-college talk that included a story about a guy with epilepsy who tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head, this cured his epilepsy but didn’t kill the man. I don’t know where they get their BS, my guess is there buy it by the truckload.
I don’t know about boring, it seems nature supplies the right hormone to cause making love to be anything but…boring. At any point, the human desire for physical love is a need we all have, sex is just part of that expression. If you are paired with someone you don’t love and does not love you, intimacy could be reduced down to just sex without the caring, holding, cuddling, and wanting to bring pleasure to the other person, maybe at that point it loses something and becomes boring.
Regardless I can only think that the involvement of a church intruding into one’s life to vilifying the act has as its motivation control and nothing else. If you prohibit something, you make it even more desirable, and away we go with hastily arranged marriages to just fulfill that need. Regardless, I still went blind as we were all told would happen. Isn’t it amazing that sex is dirty and sinful, masturbation evil and destructive to your eyesight but viola you get married and it’s all clean, healthy, and not sinful, well as long as you don’t wander….kiss, fondle below the neck…..
I’ll never forget a talk that was given at the hall during the early 1980s. From the stage, an elder stated that if a young woman were to leave “her father’s house” to go live on her own “purposes of sexual immorality can be assumed.” In the same talk he mentioned that a young man who was preparing himself for marriage would be good to live on his own for awhile so that he could get experience as the head of the household. It was so outrageous to me then, and now.
OK, now we’re beyond the Dark Ages, well into the Caveman era. lol
“Flintstones, meet the Flintstones, they’re a modern Stone-Age family…”
Lol good morning a4… my first coffee of the day and I am laughing….
Yea you kid about the “Dark Ages”. They started with me when I was 13 1/2 because I didn’t take this wonderful advice. Believe me Braille ain’t that esay
It’s so interesting hearing a young person like you Jeni describe your personal feelings about the ‘Young People Ask’ book. Some of those situations in that book seemed really overly exaggerated to me. I remember the picture of the girl in the book being given a tongue lashing from her mother about what she was wearing. I really remember thinking that it didn’t look that bad to me.
I must say though, that the chapter on drugs and alcohol was very helpful as it did create a discussion with our kids as it was a very real problem in our area among teenagers. The picture of the drug addict sitting at his desk with a blind stare, with the admonition of how someone does not grow up when they are on drugs, has never left me. I knew it to be a fact from old friends I had known who had taken drugs.
My daughter read the book but my son was not interested in it. A lot of the advice was really not very practical because as you said Jeni, it was pretty much the same in every situation. I would have hated to have gone to the elders as a teenager. Well thanks for the article. This was the only book the kids got to help and now I realise how useless it was to them. Growing up must have been so hard in the Watchtower. Growing up is difficult anyway, let alone having to go through school and life with all the pressures that the cult puts upon you. I feel so much for those who had to grow up like this under this control freak regime with very little practical help.
What gets me over the sex thing, how come they go on and on about fornication from the time we start to go to meetings. All jdubs know the word. Anyway when the kids grow up with all that guilt and repression, most kids probably would refrain from sex as a pastime leisure activity because they have had it drummed into them that it is evil. Sex for jdubs is procreative not recreative. Whatever happened to trust don’t they ever dignify people by trusting the kids to behave. No because they are not trustworthy themselves. so attribute evil to anyone in their clutches. How daft and blinkered is that. They set each and every one up for a fall. Then again JC didn’t come for sinners did he? ruthlee
@ruthlee, actually for married JW men, sex is recreational and the women are not to “deprive” their man of it. If the man commits adultery, you can be assured that the one excuse that the man will use is that the wife didn’t give him enough sex and the elders will feel pity for him.
In the Organization, women are sex slaves to their husbands as well as all the other things they are expected to do to be the wife that all women are supposed to be as per Proverbs chapter 31 that all JW girls and women have drilled into them.
Then of course, don’t forget that they can’t be nags so the husband doesn’t want to sleep on the roof and God forbid, no woman in the JW religion wants to be labeled a Jezebel.
We all want to fit into society and the way for women to fit in to society is to not make waves. That goes for all society, not just the JW religion. Women are to be thought of as demure, quiet and lady like.
Any woman who stands up to the fact that women are never thought of as “equal” in intelligence will always be labeled.
Any religion that purports to be run by God, should not allow for women to be treated as less than equal to men in intelligence but most religions will use their “holy” books to subjugate women.
Men are bigger and stronger than women and they want to keep the power and religious “holy” books will always be used to work to their advantage and women, wanting to be liked by society will follow suit and be submissive. That is human nature and the Watchtower uses religion to subjugate women just like the rest of the world does and that treatment of women and children is despicable, especially since they say they represent a perfect God.
If the Watchtower religion was really run by a perfect God, they would be forerunners in treating women and children with the respect that every human being deserves, regardless of who they are or their class in life.
Our comments may apply in some cases but I prefer a strong woman. The one thing that attracted me to my wife is that she was a bit of a feminist as well as a pioneer (well the pioneer part didn’t really attract me). I view us as equal partners. She takes the lead in most things and I in others. My daughters are all strong young ladies. I see a lot of JWS that are married to normal strong willed women. Only once did I hear someone tell me his wife wasn’t in subjection to him. I asked him if he could really say that he loved her like his own body. I said if he could do that perfectly then he could ask her to be in subjection to him because if you could love your wife like your own body like the bible tells us to then subjection would be irrelevant. I remember him walking away in silence. He never spoke to me again. And that was fine by me. I do agree that these books were written by men who do not live in the real world.
Markie, my husband used to say that Witness women wear the pants in the family. From my observations it is pretty much right because the women always demand the extreme spiritual zone for the family and to hell with the husband. I know because this was how I used to feel, which is not the best direction that a marriage should go in. Watchtower created the picture of the brainwashed family happy in all their spiritual endeavours which was straight out of Fantasyland.
I can’t help but think of a member of my own family!
She was a pioneer and “supposedly strong-willed” (but totally JW-org compliant). She married a JW brother, who happened to have a very well paid job thanks to his non-JW father.
In accordance with JW instruction neither had any experience with the opposite sex.
Result – wedding night a PAINFUL fiasco, followed by equally painful subsequent encounters. But happy in the knowledge that they were living as true exemplary JWs, (nicely cushioned by their healthy income and wealthy lifestyle that gave them both an elevated status within the JW community), they both continued on in their little bubble. He claimed his sexual rights and she as a good JW elder’s wife regularly submitted to his clumsy, boorish advances; both remaining totally oblivious to the fact that sex could actually be a pleasurable experience for both of them.
Outside of the marital bed, both parties have been disgustingly smug and judgemental in their attitudes, rigidly laying down the law about relationships to others and callously shunning any who do not fit into their way of life.
Ironically (and derisively to those who know better) my female relative has even sanctimoniously and patronisingly offered advice to other young JW sisters to prepare them for the painful sexual experience they would have to endure during and thereafter their wedding nuptials.
When a daughter arrived, my relatives little JW bubble was complete.
However several years later, their daughter has just escaped from this surreal little bubble her deluded parents have created by marrying whilst still a mere teenager, the first young JW brother she can find.
Locked in their JW bubble neither of this young girls parents realise that they are just another dysfunctional JW family and sadly their young daughter has just embarked upon another JW recipe for disaster marital life.
“In the Organization, women are sex slaves to their husbands as well as all the other things”
This inequality leads to very skewed views of sex on the part of both partners. Rather than viewing it as an expression of love and pleasure that leads to mutual enjoyment, JW women see it as a chore and JW men as a right. Twisted.
This leads to some JW woman cutting their husbands off completely because sex was so distasteful to them – it happened to several of my friends – and the husbands either end up frustrated, addicted to porn, or cheating. One young brother I knew found himself in this situation and ended up soliciting a prostitute. Fortunately he is now totally out of the cult and in a heathy relationship with a kind (non-JW) woman.
WS
In my mind it’s a truism that suppressing sexual thoughts along with avoiding any sexual acts brings about the need for a release of some kind whether it be adultery, porn, drugs, paying for sex. I’m not advocating promiscuity or teenagers becoming sexually active, but if couples ignore the needs of their spouse, refuse to even discuss feelings, emotions and desires each have, it’s not going to just go away and become forgotten. I don’t like the idea of a guy thinking dependency in a woman is a desirable trait or believing that a wife is a sexual pincushion to use whenever he feels like it. Being partners, making major decisions jointly, encouraging and applauding each others strengths and interests, showing the LKCR (loyalty, kindness, courtesy, and respect) brings happiness to each. The expression, “If momma ain’t happy, nobody’s happy” is 100% true from my experience.
I think it all boils down to females always having to be in “submission” to the males, even if it’s a male child who is baptized and the 80 year old woman having to wear a head covering during a Bible/book study.
The idea that the female is to be “submissive” to males is to put her in a different class of person than males. In other words, females are treated like children to the males, even her own male children and how can a woman get respect from her male children with such a set-up?
It reminds me of countries where women have to wear clothing that only their eyes can show and they can be killed at the whim of their husbands. In those countries, girls can’t even go to school.
The Society likes to think it’s more enlightened that that, but that is the attitude that is in the underbelly background and it’s hinted at in those scriptures at Proverbs 31 and the example of Jezebel and “The Young People Ask” book because of having a question like that in that book. That question is for brothers to look for in a possible mate. A question like that is to subjugate females and there ain’t no if’s, ands or buts about it. When you are a females in the JW religion, it is the only way a JW female is supposed to be. Does that book ask females to look at the man to see if he’s got a good job so that he can support her and any children that come along? I am curious about that. But what about the man. He might have a job when they get married, but there is no guarantee that he will keep working after they get married. That kind of thinking is as shallow as looking at a mate to see how much she weighs and what she looks like, as if she is supposed to stay the same weight and look the same until they both die. That kind of question is only to weed out anybody who might end up having a brain in her head and may question her husband. Anybody with an ounce of brains, should know that when people are dating, they are always going to be on their best behavior. Nobody is going to be showing any “warts” when they are trying to impress the possible mate. That is also human nature. That is why nobody knows what the possible mate is like until they actually get married.
If you have a man who knows that if Mama isn’t happy, then nobody else is happy either, and he wants to be happy, then he will dismiss the “advice” from the Society.
The Society doesn’t have a clue for what makes a woman happy. We aren’t living in the dark ages anymore but they haven’t figured that out yet and believe it or not, women do have voices and they like to be heard, which the Society thinks, doesn’t matter.
As long as they can make rules that people have to follow or get kicked out and shunned, then it works for them and they will stick to it, until it all comes crumbling down with a newer and smarter generation of men and women who are smarter than that.
Great comment Ruthlee, I have read a number of articles that address the transition from “Sex is dirty, God will destroy you for having sex before marriage” to “Sex is important to your marriage, be kind and considerate and you will both receive and give pleasure while creating a family”.
Just as with those who leave a cult, many have a tough time getting the cult out of their thinking, it’s tough to have the horror stories and threats that were your first introduction to sex suddenly leave your mind after you both say “I Do”
* – hordes
if you cant beat them join them
Amazing read Jeni, I can relate so much to the disasters of youth because if this book as I was directed to. It is very damaging as a young adult because lack of education into dating and marriage leads to a dangerous situations, which is why I just stay by myself. I am so sad for the children who will be directed to the new one.. or the “go to parent” as you stated.
I just remember all of us getting nervous about about who would get the number 4 talk with the topic of masturbation!!!! Hahaha. Turns out my uncle got the assignment!! Fortunately for him I was in the second school!! Apparently doing the dishes helps you control the urge according to the young people ask book!!! Hahaha. Good thing we had a dishwasher!!
I’ve heard from certain desperate housewives that a vibrating, shaking kitchen, or washroom, large appliance can relief that sort of pent-up frustration…
My appliances are stacked…. I can’t climb up that far…. :(
@tara. Well, smaller “appliances” may work better! lol
OOo er Matron!
I was talking to my 11 year old daughter last week, she had overheard her JW aunt talk about headship and being in subjection. She wanted to know what it meant, I explained to her how it all works, she was shocked and said “that is so 200 years ago, I would never get into a relationship with someone who treated me like that”. :)
On another topic, the standing in the congregation before you can date is another JW get the young baptised trap. If you want to date you have to fit the cookie cutter criteria, the biggest one is being baptised. Imagine not being baptised and wanting to date an elders son/daughter or not being baptised and getting married in a hall. I think that is a large factor in teenagers getting baptised for the wrong reason and then being trapped by disfellowshipping later on.
I don’t think there have been any wedding in our hall for a long time. Most young people want outside weddings with a wedding officiant. The last wedding in our hall was years ago and those guys are not doing well as she isn’t subservient and he is mentally ill. I’m sick of seeing these poor young people hitched as babes and then pretending life is just peachy. My son ending up marrying his girlfriend because he was living in her parents house and the elders forced their hand as it was seen as ‘living together’. Now they are divorced and both married to non witnesses… my son is still df’d but she was reinstated but leads a double life that she keeps hidden from the elders and her family. I would def. never marry a witness. In fact I had a fun time over the holidays with an Italian guy ;)
Tara you naughty girl. Tut tut. All the best with that. If I was clever enough to put a smiley face in I would too.
Tara you gave a glimpse at those “arranged” marriage issues, but I wonder how many similar “knobstick weddings” due to elder meddling or tattle-tale meddling are caused. “I saw Y and X making out (holding hands and talking) at the secret grove at the Circuit Assembly convention center.” Or, because a young, naive man, or woman, is caught in a compromising situation that becomes twisted into a “serious matter” and to save face and privileges, they tie-the-knot?
So, this headship thing, do husbands still make their wives throw garlands before their feet as they walk to the toilet?
One thing I recall that was common for young JWs who were dating was getting all handsy with each other but stopping short of having intercourse. I think they Org called it mutual masturbation.
The result always seemed that one of the pair felt guilty and ran to the elders with it. They’d get counseled and usually reproved and then almost always break up. And it often seemed that the girl got blamed for it and was put in a bad light.
My cousin was dating a wonderful young woman, but then they got in trouble for being all touchy-feely and then he breaks up with her. Never understood the logic behind that. I think it may have been because the elders were telling them they either had to marry or break up. “But if you decide to marry, you can’t have the wedding in the KH, ’cause we know about your dirty deed.”
WS
Tara, personally garlands are too much. I’m much more practical. If the little woman can squeeze in a few hours of peeling a few pounds of grapes, mow the lawn and wax my car, I’m a happy man
Haha you funny man.
@tara! Hey, I am Italian!I even go to an Italian Club? It wasn’t me was it? Lol.I am the financial secretary!
Oh yea, that is another DIMB thing the WT teaches is we should not join any clubs! JW’s the religion of no fun. The Nuns of no fun!
@ Tara
Details, please.
…and video, if available. ;)
;)
I guess the imogees aren’t working. Sad face.
@ Tara
The sad face was for the broken imogees, not u. Wink.
Hahahaha ROFLMAO nudge nudge wink wink say no more. ;)
A nudge is as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh, eh?
Tara, you want to leave a phone number?
HAHAHA you gonna get us kicked off here. It was nice to have fun. To feel alive for once… I’ve towed the line since my ex left me and then the divorce. I waited for Mr ‘right brother’ to come along but he never did. Sisters outweigh the brothers, we all know that. To be honest I was scared even to hold this guys hand so nothing went too far… It was nice to kiss and cuddle… but even so, in the back of my mind was the WT condemning me for my sin of being a healthy human being with feelings and needs. Ok and wants… who wouldn’t want a nice healthy Italian eh girls ;)
Haha that is what my daughter got.
Tara, You got something against Scandinavians?
Why wouldn’t you have such a crap experience in your marriage being guided by the Watchtower? Of course the very little time that you had to share in intimacy with your partner, was stolen by time for pre-study, going to meetings, being hospitable to people you have never met before, dragging yourself and your family out witnessing in the hot sun all morning and copping abuse as you went.
Why would anyone get excited about going to bed? I was just going to wake up to another relentless day in the life of a Jehovah’s Witness. Grind and treadmill. Working to get to a boring assembly. Those weekends away were hell. It’s a wonder my marriage held together with all the components to rip it apart designed by the Watchtower attacking it from all sides. There were endless money worries because my husband and I had to do lesser paid manual work in order to be able to get to the meetings, putting an added strain on our marriage. And the guilt trip it would put upon men who found the family study too hard. I remember ripping into my husband about that. How stupid I was to have fallen for it. Thank God he stayed around.
Yet we have found another way the Watchtower sought to ruin our lives, by way of our marriages. How absolutely evil.
I remember reading from young people ask and thinking, that answer doesn’t work for me. They have a one size fits all mentality.
YPA book I remember was part of the Thursday Book study back in the 1980’s . When it came out there were recurring themes about Masturbation , rather embarrassing comments from the study conductor . I remember a young boy who picked up the microphone being pushed by his parents to say “oral sex is bad”…..
I remember 1 young kid (maybe 9 or 10, the son of an elder) reading a scripture in the KH, about the ancient Israelites, or somebody, being forced to “eat their own excrement”. It was surreal, creepy, and funny all at the same time.
Someone quoted a statistic that only about a third of Witness Youth remain in the Org. That’s very heartening. If the WT is not put out of its misery by force, it will simply fizzle out of existence.
This is the statistical data you were looking for:
Pew Study on Religion-2014
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/05/RLS-08-26-full-report.pdf
Among those raised in the religion … % who still identify with the religious body
Hindu 80
Muslim 77
Jewish 75
Historically black Protestant 70
Evangelical Protestant 65
Mormon 64
Catholic 59
Orthodox Christian 53
Unaffiliated 53
Mainline Protestant 45
Buddhist 39
Jehovah’s Witness 34
Thanx. Some interesting stats there. Is it any wonder JW is the lowest? lol
@ART FERN.Good stats Art. I passed these on to some other JW’s I know.
I bet the WT is like Enron and even “COOK THE BOOKS” to make it look like they are growing more than they are even at the measly 1-2% growth they claim. Remember most of the so called growth is coming from FORCED baptism’s from their children and from 3rd World countries where there is a high percentage of uneducated people without access to the internet or other opinions. The JW Religion is still new to them and the WT only shows them the modern Face of the WT. They know nothing of its torrid , mean , false history. If only 1/3 of Adult JW stay with the religion and in that 1/3 maybe 50% really believe it those are not good stats and not good retention at all. I mean who wants to join those guys with their 1000’s of rules and nonsense and shunning and destruction of family and molestations and lies etc. For real. A dooms dat cult they are.
Holy, you nailed it, if the Watchtower, using the most drastic and hurtful means possible (shunning) can’t keep members in, the problem is much greater than anyone can imagine. I bet the figure of 50% of those in are pretenders who cannot comprehend losing their spouse, children, friends, and maybe their job, is darn close to reality. If the pretenders were true to themselves they would leave, but not at such a high cost. There are 7 million publishers, if shunning was not a core principle, there might only be 3.5 million. Of those many will eventually wake up, but more importantly 2 in every 3 of their children will not identity as JWs, so the increase in born-in members is almost eliminated. This is like a bomb that eventually will blow up and take down the org.
@ Holy Connoli
Great point about “cooking the books”. Never thought of that! Thanx for reminding me how DEEP propaganda can go!!!
No wonder so many Witness marriages are miserable. Speaking from personal experience, a youth growing up as a Witness does not get the proper social exposure & training to be a well-adjusted adult. I had to learn all that stuff on my own, much later. U learn nothing by following Robotic advice & procedures from some ‘Life Manual’ – As if there could ever be such a thing!
Many folks, including NON-JWs, seem to see marriage as some kind of “magic portal”, so that once u pass thru, ur Fairy Godmother or someone waves a magic wand, and Presto! – Instant Happiness! Just like Cinderella & Prince Charming riding off to the Castle. Fact is, if u take 2 dysfunctional people & put them together, their situation will be at least as bad as before. Probably better to stay single. My advice to anyone contemplating marriage is: Take a GOOD look at YOURSELF 1st. Are u an adult? Well-adjusted? Mature? Do u play well with the other “kids”? If so, ur own instincts should be able tell u if the other person is cool. Marriage is a scary proposition, especially when u consider that almost 50% of all marriages last forever.
So DON’T RUSH!!! I’m sick of all the propaganda on T.V., in movies & music, etc, insinuating that if u’re not in a relationship, u must be some kind of lonely, pathetic loser. It’s actually gone from thought-control to emotion-control. ‘1984’-squared!!! They try to get u to ‘punish’ urself for being single by ‘demanding’ that u be depressed & lonely. F*** that!!! And f*** THEM!!! I’m alone. I’m NOT lonely! I have the social skills to get human interaction, anytime, anywhere. In my case, WT & all the other Propagandists, FAILED MISERABLY.
P of the issues some of you have found like p flaws. Most religions teach abstinence, no sex prior to marriage. And kids and teenagers who are eager for sex are more than likely wanting because a peer has talked about it or has put those thoughts in their minds.
And if one behaves that much differently when people aren’t watching, well then that’s a character issue, not s religious issue.
Seems as though most of you don’t like the religion because you weren’t allowed to do more than likely things you weren’t able to do as a child. However your parents without religion would have set fine ground rules that would be sure to piss you of as well.
I don’t see any valid phones being made here, just complaints that you weren’t allowed to masterbate or date early, or have as much premarital sex as you would have liked?
Hi Tammy.
Do you not think it is a valid point to say that youths who are expected to date with a chaperone and never be alone together until they commit to marriage will be much less likely to actually know the person they are marrying and suffer a much more difficult marriage as a result?
I don’t see any “valid phones” from you either. It is perfectly conceivable to have good morals without basing them all on a narrow interpretation of a sacred text that is itself riddled with accounts of sexual depravity. Sexual repression can actually do serious harm. It has even been suggested that repression in the form of celibacy has played a major role in the child sex abuse scandal in the catholic church. Per our posting guidelines, kindly refrain from making judgmental, evangelically-motivated comments.
Tammy, if it helps, I’ve always found Apple and Samsung to be valid phones. Nokia used to be good, but they’ve slipped a bit. Don’t touch that Microsoft stuff. ;)
Tammy, for once, I actually agree with the Watchtower Society in that I think sex before marriage is a bad idea but not because of what the Bible says or what the Watchtower says but because studies have shown.
Once sex has begun between a couple, they may stop getting to know each other. If they have been dating for a very long time and they really know each other, then that is an entirely different matter.
Then there is the problem that if a person has slept with multiple partners before marriage, then they are likely to meet these people when they are out and about and that is something they have to live with for the rest of their lives unless they move away and the one they do marry will always wonder who it is that their marriage mate has been intimate with before marrying that particular person. If young people have sex while they are in school, the girl may be talked about as being “easy” and get a bad reputation and lose respect among her peers while the boy will brag about his conquests.
Movies and television make sex as recreation and that gives people the idea that it isn’t that important outside of marriage but they do leave out an awful lot of stuff that people need to know before engaging in it and the Society doesn’t have a clue. All they can do is use some scriptures and fool the rank and file into thinking they are getting it straight from God.
They don’t have anything of importance to tell young people when it comes to sex. The Bible is from bronze aged savages who lived thousands of years ago and totally ignorant as to facts in today’s enlightened age.
The Society is stupid and lazy and just wants rules to be followed mindlessly and marriages to be something they can’t get out of, once they have “tied the knot”.
This stupid lazy attitude towards marriage has ruined millions of lives in the Organization and the Society should be held accountable for their lazy “advice” but they get away with it and have gotten away with it for over one hundred years under the guise of being “run by God” and people fall for it, just as anybody who belongs to any religion has fallen for the same kind of people who are narcissistic leaders who attract gullible people.
Before marriage, sex is taboo and bad and after signing the papers, then it’s good. Most people who believe in God, feel as if there is that invisible God who is watching them naked, whether they are having sex before marriage or after the papers are signed and if they really do believe in God, feel that God is watching them naked and being humped or humping the other person or masturbating. Children are being taught all over the world that there is that invisible God watching every thing they do and just signing papers doesn’t make them feel any less “guilty” when they have sex after marriage or masturbating.
TOnce a person really falls in love (not infatuation) with the other person, they will want to be with that person for the rest of their lives and they will want to have sex with that person, whether they are the girl or the man. That is how the human race has kept going all this time. There is nothing wrong with it and if they feel free to do it without that invisible God watching over them while they are doing it, they will enjoy it a lot more and will feel a lot freer and not feel guilty about it.
Yes, you are right. A lot of religions preach abstinence before marriage but using the Bible for that teaching is silly because as Cedars said, the Bible is full of fornication and adultery even by Jesus ancestors who of which, if they hadn’t done what they did, Jesus would never have existed, like for instance David committing adultery with Bathsheba to produce Solomon who was an ancestor of Jesus (Matthew 1:6).
I don’t like the Watchtower because of all their lies and rules, which have nothing to do with the Bible. Anybody can take the Bible and fool people with it. People aren’t forced to accept lies. They want to be lied to and the Society knows that and they will say anything to get followers. They are not above lying to people and people want to be lied to.
People hate the idea of dying and miss their dead loved ones and all religions use that fear to get followers and money support. Either religions use the idea of never dying (like Watchtower teaches) or it’s the idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell.
I ask you to describe your God Jehovah to me. If you look in the Insight book under Jehovah, it just says that it’s the name of God (not true) and if you look in the Reasoning book under Jehovah, it only says it’s the name of God (again not true) but there is no description of Him.
When I think of the God Jehovah in the Bible, all I can think of is all the people he killed. Saying that God is love, doesn’t say much. So, is love God?
Really, how can you describe God? How did he make everything that is alive and living on the earth out of thin air, out of nothing? Can anybody see him or is he invisible? If he is invisible, then explain how he made anything out of nothing.
We were all just made to believe in an invisible God who made everything and is everywhere but there is no evidence that God is anywhere to watch over us while we are naked. If you don’t have that idea implanted in our heads, that makes having sex a lot more fun, without an audience watching us.
Think about it.
Just signing papers doesn’t make the guilt go away if you believe that there is that invisible God watching you naked.
@Caroline,
I’d like to add that I think it is especially important that teenagers abstain from sexual intercourse because they are not emotionally or intellectually mature enough for sex or its consequences.
Let’s face it, the most common result of sex is pregnancy, so when someone chooses to engage in it then should able and ready to support the results of their actions. Again, a reason why teens are not ready for it.
To your point, a piece of paper does not somehow make sex all of a sudden moral or the lack thereof immoral. Young people should be reasoned with as to why sex is not a good decision at this point in their lives, but they also should be given good instruction as to how to engage in it safely if they choose to do so. Telling them that there is an invisible person spying on them and who will punish them for having sex is not healthy.
Logic and reason also help us to appreciate the dangers of multiple, lurid sexual encounters – just look at all the sexually transmitted diseases. The point being we don’t need a bunch of arbitrary rules and insinuation of invisible punishment to induce good judgement about sex, we just need common sense.
WS
I agree teenagers should put off dating and sex. It just becomes a preoccupation with kids. I would just encourage my kids to masturbate instead of sex. It’s safer and it relieves a lot of built up tension. I think kids should focus on school and a career.
@ Will
Thank you for saying “kids should focus on school and a career”!!! If today’s parents exercised the kind of DISCIPLINE (sorry for using that dirty word) that my parents did, teen sex would not even be an issue!!!!!!!!!!… nor would drugs, drinking & driving, etc.
Not a single person has made remarks to encourage a person having multiple partners. Not one person had advocated, but rather condemned teens becoming sexually active. You have missed the point, because that little (JW) voice in your head, exaggerates what has been written to the point that you read between the lines and imagine that we are writing about a state of free love, irresponsibility, sexually active children, and multiple partners who never really know each other. Please read my first comment, that a few folks seemed to agree with, but for one character. I wrote about a couple of adults who were committed and exclusive having dated for some time and planning on marriage. Surely if they were looking at marriage they would know as much about each other as if they had married before actually living together. That said your premise is terribly faulty, the suggestion that after that first time being intimate, all learning stops is just nuts.
The theme throughout this discussion has been the problems created by Watchtower teachings which vilify friendships outside the KH, causing people in desperation to marry to have sex, marrying too young as well as having such a small pool to choose from. Them we add in incorrect information leading to many having rather bizarre hang ups about sex. The body of evidence in many decades of study involving millions of individuals is that some fundemental Biblical beliefs meant to control individuals by scare tactics, come at a great cost.
If you played by all the rules, as I did and everyone else who is commenting, and have a wonderfully happy marriage, good for you. However most of us did not, it doesn’t help anyone for you to make sweeping judgements, assign blame, when you have never walked in our shoes.
I would just like to clarify that in no way was my previous comment promoting being promiscuous, or trying to belittle waiting to have sex for the first time with a marriage mate.
However the rules of WT do not permit a couple to really get to know each other. “A chaperone at all times” – being alone only when going from door to door on field service.
Sex is such a taboo subject for the JWs they are actually obsessed with it and so think everyone else is. It was only after I left that I discovered that it was possible to date, be alone with a member of the opposite sex – even though they were “worldly” and not engage in sexual relations! (My JW relations do not seem able to comprehend this).
I remember when as a JW a great fuss was made when I simply talked to a single brother at an assembly out of earshot of others.
Marriage is a big step – for anyone. I know so many young JWs who have got married and had unhappy marriages, many that fail.
Some have failed because their marriage mate is actually gay, but has guiltily followed the JW guidelines and not only repressed their true feelings and sexuality but also in accordance with the teachings have refrained from being too intimate with their intended before they married. It was only after they married that “the truth outed” and led to a lot of hurt.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the YPA book covers that scenario!
@Art Fern,
I certainly didn’t get the sense from any of your comments that you were promoting free love, irresponsibility, or sexually active children. Seems to me you have typically promoted a balanced view in this regard.
WS
Winston, Caroline, Tara, Holy, Anon and others: thank you all so much for backing me up as well as being supportive of what I may have written. You are very kind and I appreciate your comments more than you will ever know. This forum has really been helpful and therapeutic for me, I hope for you too.
@Art, I am thinking you are referring to my comments? I was only suggesting some of the problems of of what can happen when people have sex before marriage.
I also played by all the rules and had a miserable marriage so I know of what I speak also and my marriage was in 1967, which was 49 years ago and still going.
In my comments, I wasn’t agreeing with what the Society says about sex before marriage because of what the Society says but I was only going by books I have read and television shows I have seen and studies.
I would never condemn anybody who had sex before marriage and I don’t advocate it either.
I can assure you that there is no little Watchtower voice in my head. I have washed that bull crap out of my head completely and if I wanted to have sex before marriage, I think it’s my business. I think though, that young people don’t realize some of the ramifications and even some adults don’t realize some of the ramifications either.
The Watchtower Society doesn’t have a clue when it comes to sexual advice for anybody. Even if they just used some good books to come up with some good advice that would be better than anything they have ever written in any of their books when it comes to good, solid advice about anything but they won’t do that either.
Caroline, your comments were great, there was nothing I disagreed with, I was responding to Tammy Baker (I think she meant Bakker). I may have incorporated some of your points but not in the way of disagreeing.
I’m sorry I wasn’t very clear.
Thanks Art for replying to my comment. I was afraid my comment had been offensive and I would never try and make anybody feel bad about sex before marriage. It happens all the time since time immemorial and I think it’s disgusting how the Watchtower thinks they have a right to condemn somebody when they have done it and makes them think they have to confess to them if they have done it and how many times and with whom and on and on.
The Watchtower (elders and Governing Body) has no evidence at all that God ever appointed them as watch dogs over anybody but they presumptuously insert themselves into the private lives of millions of people and can ruin them mentally for the rest of their lives because of having sex before marriage or masturbated or engaged in heavy petting or even in what position that married couples engage in when they are having sex in their own bedrooms.
All it takes is one act of premarital sex and that person will for the rest of their lives feel as if they have “sinned” against God and unless they confess to the elders will always feel that God is withholding his spirit from that congregation.
That feeling of guilt is what destroys a person mentally so if they are a Witness, they will go to the elders to “confess” their sins and that is supposed to make them feel better about what they did but it doesn’t.
Now they know that the elders know and so every time they walk into the Kingdom Hall, they have to face those elders who know what they did. It is the same feeling as if those elders saw them naked and did what they did and those poor people have to live with that feeling ashamed and exposed for the rest of their lives.
They would have been so much better off, not even telling the elders but they tell the elders in the hopes that they will be absolved of their guilty feelings about having “sinned” against God.
Then they might even be disfellowshipped for telling them what they did as in the case of the silly secret elders’ meeting with the guy that had sex when he went up to see a girl’s fish tank and got the girl pregnant.
What can help those people with not having that kind of guilt is for them to find out that the Watchtower isn’t representing God at all but taking the place of a God in their lives, which is completely against what the Bible even says.
When they come to realize that a God doesn’t have anything to do with Watchtower, they can finally not have those guilty feelings anymore and can be happy.
If any so-called “Christian” organization deserves to fit the description that is in the Bible at Matthew 7:21-23, it is the Watchtower organization.
@Caroline, Grest points well expressed. I do feel badly that I wasn’t very clear leading you to possibly think I was attacking you, which would be like attacking myself since we are in unison in our views.
… And let’s face it, those Bronze Age savages wouldn’t know a valid phone from a dead goat.
Sorry, just had to get in on that action. :)
Call me blind as a bat, it suddenly occurred to me that the greatest evidence of a connection between marriage, religion and sexual activity, historically has been missing from my point of view. Does anyone really think that the first humans 30,000-100,000 years ago or more, married? Marriage is a very modern rite completely neutral towards religion until religion choose to use it as a “sacrament”. Why did people marry? According to Paul it was solely to avoid burning in some hell. 1Corr 7-“I wish you were all as I” (single, celibate and alone) “but if you must (do the dirty) it’s better to marry than to burn”.
There is NO other scripture backing this up, it could well be that a scribe got cute and added in his own take, just as was done to the last 12 verses in Mark. Early copies of Mark for 150 years did not include those verses, clearly it makes for a fine story, but “inspired”, not likely.
You want to talk about promiscuity Ms Tammy Bakker, why not get into the life of our greatest patriarch, Abraham and speak to his 1000+ wives and concubines, if a ceremony was held to commemorate each relationship the United Dads of ancient Israel would have revolted rather than keep paying for 1000 weddings and receptions. Marriage is a legal procedure giving legal status to wives and offspring. Beforehand a wife or child only had the rights the man/father would grant them, he had no responsibility for their care or maintainence until they gained legal status. Look it up. Without a desire to find a person you wished to share your life with, be intimate, have offspring, mankind would die out. There is nothing unnatural about intimacy. Marriage is a wonderful thing representing a uniting a commitment to each other, but remember it was not created by Judeo-Christianity, rather hijacked.
The WT Study last week was again trying to take the fun out of being a youth.
Page 8 paragraph 2: “one expert on child development states: “Adolescence is not a period of being ‘crazy’ or ‘immature.’ It is an essential time of emotional intensity, social engagement, and creativity.”
I’m sorry but if you can’t be crazy and immature when you’re a teenager then it’s a sad state of affairs. Once again there is a very obscure reference to a supposed “expert”. Which expert is this? What is their name and what is the context in which they made that statement, if indeed they did make it?
Also they have really contradicted themselves. if they admit that there are teenagers who are crazy and immature, then doesn’t that allow for the possibility that a teenager’s decision to get baptised was made rashly or whilst in a moment of madness?
By definition, Adolescence is exactly the time to be “immature.” Otherwise it would be called “maturity.”
I also note they did not name this “expert” or reference the quote.
Watchtower: Oblivious of the dictionary since 1914….
The WT quote is from “Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain” by Dr. Daniel J. Siegel, a noted psychiatrist and author. The context of his comment is a discussion of ‘myths’ and negative attitudes about adolescence. His words just prior to the quote are:
“Unfortunately, what others believe about us can shape how we see ourselves and how we behave. This is especially true when it comes to teens and how they “receive” commonly held negative at-
titudes that many adults project (whether directly or indirectly)—that teens are “out of control,” or “lazy” or “unfocused.” Studies show that when teachers were told that certain students had “limited intelligence,” these students performed worse than other students whose teachers were not similarly informed. But when teachers were
informed that these same students had exceptional abilities, the students showed marked improvement in their test scores. Adolescents who are absorbing negative messages about who they are and what is
expected of them may sink to that level instead of realizing their true potential. As the writer Johann W. van Goethe said, “Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them become what they are capable of being.”
Interestingly, the doctor also states “the ‘work’ of adolescence—the testing of boundaries, the passion to explore what is unknown and exciting—can lay
the stage for the development of core character traits that will enable adolescents to go on to lead great lives of adventure and purpose.” Wonder why the WT didn’t include that quote??
@songbird Wow! Thanks for a quick response and finding that quote. It’s amazing how things can change when you take them out of their original context.
I’m 49 and still want to be crazy and immature…. anyone else in?
You have to love the circular logic, first they liberally use, but misuse expert information when it can be taken out of context to bouy up a JW contention. Everyone is aware of the Watchtower having to make corrections in its articles because the expert they used did not appreciate having his or hers words twisted to have, in some cases, opposite meanings.
Secondly, getting back to the Demonic world teachings, they condemn institutions of higher learning as well as the conclusions drawn by the scientists, those who study social issues, medical and psychiatric personal who conduct double-blind studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients.
The Watchtower in the course of putting together a piece do searches on clinical studies, scientific articles to find the right info they can then twist into supporting their contentions, hoping their doing so never gets back to the experts. One and on it goes…..
You do realize that you might be responsible for starting a stampede. I hope I never grow up, I never want to start wearing spongy shoes, dress in cheap polyester clothing, start running down the youth because in our day we were perfect while today’s kids are lazy and irresponsible, eating at 4pm to get the Seniors-early bird discount in-bed by 8. diving land yachts a mile long with the men in the front their wives in the back.
Today I wore a bright blue polo shirt with the alligator chewing on my shoulder, white jeans and hiking boots. Once a preppie always a preppie. I wore a suit and tie everyday for very long time,(through many Arizona summers), no more. Before someone calls me superficial don’t, we’re speaking of attitude solely and the accraments that go with age and attitude. Keep your mind fresh, do what you enjoy, and stay young. Hey Tara, I’m in
@ Tara
I don’t believe I’ve ever matured. & my sanity is definitely in question. So yeah, wtf, I’m in.
@tara. I am in. I always say it is never to late to have childhood!
You have to love the circular logic, first they liberally use, but misuse expert information when it can be taken out of context to bouy up a JW contention. Everyone is aware of the Watchtower having to make corrections in its articles because the expert they used did not appreciate having his or hers words twisted to have, in some cases, opposite meanings.
Secondly, getting back to the Demonic world teachings, they condemn institutions of higher learning as well as the conclusions drawn by the scientists, those who study social issues, medical and psychiatric personal who conduct double-blind studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients.
The Watchtower in the course of putting together a piece do searches on clinical studies, scientific articles to find the right info they can then twist into supporting their contentions, hoping their doing so never gets back to the experts. One and on it goes…..
@voiceoftruth
You do realise that if you’re using language like that, you won’t get through “Armmageton” either, right?
Oh, God! I was anxious enough about Armageddon. Now I have to worry about Armmageton too? I think I’ll just play some “Armageddon It” by Def Leppard. ;)
Sometimes the imogees work, sometimes they don’t. Or is it just my computer? Maybe a hacker trying to destroy apostate morale by depriving us of imogees. Sad Face.
2 minutes to midnight works as well.
Thanks Jeni. Some months ago James Strait wrote “Personal success was, and still is, being targeted by the official site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Clearly, Watchtower is threatened by the ambitious youth among their ranks, and are taking action to demotivate them.” That would back up my experience of encountering Witnesses in the U.K. who have left school with minimal qualifications.
Great point James. In fact I was just thinking recently that the JWs encourage nothing better than mediocrity. Just be a ‘yes man’ to the organization. No room for individuality or reaching for your best potential.
WS
I remember an incident, in conversation at the KH, a JW teen mentioned she was thinking of going to college to study Nursing. An elder countered by telling her she should study something that will be “useful” in the “new system”. I told him, in a joking sort of way, not to be such a Dream-Killer.
Amen James! And it gets confusing, they connect college with Evil Philosophy classes or greed. Never is the pursuit of knowledge mentioned or wanting to achieve a degree in order to help others. Again it’s vilifying something they know nothing about using stupidity to do so, as in M causes homosexuality. I earned a degree in Acountancy at Ariz. State, followed by work at Colorado U to get my masters. I worked two full time jobs or one full time and one part time to get thru, the motivation was not to earn BIG BUCKs but to become qualified to do what I had always wanted to do, work in hospital/health care administration. At no time was I required to take an Evil Philosophy class, the GB implies all must. I’ve studied philosophy on my own but taking a class was not a requirement.
Any yet, the WT broadcasts are all about money, contributing more to build 487,000 new KHs, 8,962,735 translation centers, and the $549,936,075,965 needed to complete Warrick. Now they’re not going to get all this loot from getting kids to give up their ice cream money or to donate all mom’s jewelry. It has to come out of salaries and most JWs live on much less than most people and have little education allowing them to jump to better paying jobs. Don’t get me started on the people at Bethal who are being tossed out after years and years of working for almost nothing and have no savings, no education and have not contributed to Social Security. It’s truly sad that good people with many talents have to forgo using those talents because they cannot go to college. Now if the parable of the Talents doesn’t come to mind….
Art,
When I went to college I was not required to take any ‘evil philosophy’ courses either. But I did learn critical thinking skills and my perspective was opened up to a worldview much bigger than the limited viewpoint of the JWs. I think that is their real issue with college education.
So since getting a university education is so wrong, here’s a suggestion for the GB: dismiss all the university-trained medical doctors from bethel and instead bring in folks who only have a high school diploma and took a course in first aid. Then the next time you need medical treatment go to them!
WS
Amen, you nailed it. The GB loves to take side steps rather than being open and honest. They can’t say “gay from birth” but they can combine another behavior they love to suppress to come up with M causes homosexuality.
I have a hard time believing that they don’t realize that 90% of college grads never took a Philosophy class, but they can’t just say, “it’s easier to control the sheep by keeping them ignorant” can they?
Hello friends,
all that matters within the JW.ORG is “outward appearance”, the high-gloss yet shallow surface, “doing the right thing” (“right” being redefined as “being perfectly in line with JW.ORG-regulations”), political correctness, being “exemplary” (as defined by the JW.ORG), being “privileged”, being “good association” (as defined by the JW.ORG) etc. …
Is it hence surprising that individuals evaluated and gauged on the basis of suchlike meaningless, shallow, valueless – or even misleading – criteria turn out to be utterly unsuitable to forge a deep and truly meaningful relationship with? The top priority within the JW.ORG, its “Golden Calf”, its “Holy Cow”, its “Idol” is “Many field service hours”, “More field Service Hours” and “Yet more field Service Hours”. Do do do. Work work work. Be “eager”. Be “zealous”. “Exert yourself” as a “pioneer”. Do “increased service”. Do “not forsaking our meetings”. Read each wt and aw-magazine. Donate much. Work much. Do. Work. Run. Hasten. Exert yourself. Sacrifice yourself for the JW.ORG. Seek first the JW.ORG and its interests. All is but “Doing, working, effort, exertion, struggle, sweat, …”. Everything within the JW.ORG is about high-power, streamlined performance, about the big show, about being holier-than-thou, outshining others.
What kind of shallow “values” are these? It truly doesn’t require a degree in rocket science to be able to discern: Relationships forged on the basis of, and by the rules of suchlike “non-values” (cardboard- and hot air-values) are doomed to failure. It’s as simple as that. JW.ORG-values possess no “value”, no substance for real life. They are phantasies, phantoms, fictions, hot air bubbles. You can equally build your marriage on the “guiding values” of Alice in Wonderland, the little Tooth Fairy or Mickey Mouse. Maybe even better. My favorite: Lord of the Rings. Here you can learn a lot about “true fellowship”, friendship and sticking together (Sam carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom, for example). THAT has “true value & meaning” – but not “Is your future mate a pioneer – a Ministerial Servant – does he read each wt” and suchlike nonsense? JW – WAKE UP, and see the “true nature” of your GB-mandated “non-values” and what they really are: Less than nothing, a bunch of hogwash and humbug.
Greetings,
FT
You mean, it’s important to ask the really big questions BEFORE, marriage, like….what is your publisher hour average? If below 10, please explain. How many times a year do you Aux. Pio.? Have you been to Pioneer Service school? When? Why are you not now?
How long have you been appointed as.M.S., Eld. ? Please specify which. Bethel service?, any pervious reproof’s /restrictions? (Please note will be calling your C.O.B.E to check the files to verify). And then the tough one…..have you ever seen a pornograhic image or engaged in an act.of masterbation?
No. Not at all. Forget about “hour average”, “theocratic status”, “MS/E”, Bethel, … all that b.s. These things are nothing but smokescreens & mirrors, of absolutey no value, and meaningless.
The questions to ask are: What kind of person is this? Is s/he truly …
-kind
-caring
-considerate
-faithful
-generous
-gentle
-reliable
-selfless
-stable
-tender
-thoughful
-understanding
-loving the other unconditionally, for what the other person TRULY is, not for satisfying some 3rd party ivory tower criteria.
How about …
-love of animals
-love of nature
-love of the fine arts
-not being dogmatic
-not being bossy
– …
And so on. THESE are the things that count and to look for (at least, to me).
IF, of course, someone wants to base his/her evaluation of the other person on such “non-values” as the ones prescribed by JW.ORG – sure, go ahead, go for it. But don’t be surprised if faster than the eye can flick you are trapped in a life- and loveless union that has NO substance, NO value and absolutey NO future.
I could not agree with you more, except, you didn’t mention ‘get’s along with kids’. Although, through lack of experience this might be a bit hard to work out, but just see if they have time for someone else’s kids. That’s important. Really, how they treat others and it’s not just a front. Takes time to get to know someone properly.
@Meredith, when it comes to how do they get along with other people’s kids, a woman has to be really careful. Men who are pedophiles, target women with young kids.
@ Free Thinker
Wow! I got tired just reading that “exertion” post! Glad I’m not pushing the grindstone anymore!
Good 4 u. But u still do remember it though … right?
Trying to forget that whole experience. ;)
I’ve just read all the comments posted about marriage. I want to add – sometimes it only takes one to break up a marriage. I have a sister in the ‘truth’ she always said she wouldn’t marry a brother with a smaller shoe size than her’s. Well, she married a brother with a smaller shoe size than her’s because she saw he is loving and loves her. They are doing well. I have a brother in the ‘truth’ who married when he was twenty years old and his wife was sixteen years old. They are now in their sixties, love each other and are happy and going strong. Then, there’s my niece – She was raised in the ‘truth.’ When she was nineteen years old she married a thirty four year old elder. He actually moved in with her and her parents before they married even though it made people mad. After six months they married, eventually they had two kids. After five years of marriage she fell in love with her supervisor at work and left her kids and husband for the other man. Her ex husband continues to live with her parents and the two kids. Sometimes divorce happens because of one person. Many times It only takes one to break up a marriage whether it’s in the ‘truth’ or not. If you see what I’m trying to say. The Youth Book doesn’t prepare anyone for anything.. Real life isn’t portrayed in the Youth Book.
@Alexandria R
I feel I need to offer an alternate Point of view in regard to your niece. It is really easy to blame the mate that cheats for ruining the marriage. The reality is that marriage is a partnership and that when one person cheats it is usually a symptom of other issues. To place all the blame on your niece is short-sighted in my opinion. If she fell in love with her supervisor at work it is partly because he gave her something that her husband did not. Cheating is not the best way to deal with marital issues – it takes communication and hard work – but if the one mate is unable or unwilling to put in the effort or make changes, then leaving the relationship (often by cheating) may be the only option for the other mate.
WS
I had a friend once who was in the truth who, just like me, came in with her husband. When she could not handle it any longer and her husband refused to accept her intolerance of the Watchtower and of his adherence to it, she committed adultery so that she could be free. I thought it was a sad sad situation to have to go to that kind of lengths to get peace. I wonder how many others have resorted to this desperate measure. It does not have God’s blessing I might add as it breaks one of the laws of the ten commandments.
@Alexandria R. That comment about your niece does not sound like the JW religion that I have been associated with for fifty years.
I have known people who got disfellowshipped for spending just one night together in the apartment they were going to share when it was two weeks before they were going to get married and somebody spotted his car in front of the apartment all night long.
I also know that if that elder was interested in a nineteen year old girl that there is no way that any normal congregation would have been okay with the two of them living together in the same house for six months before they got married, even if it was with her parents in the house. There is no way that those two could be watched twenty four seven.
Why was this elder not living in his own house? Why is he still living in his former in-laws’ house? That doesn’t make any sense either.
I think there’s a lot more to the story than that it just takes just one person to end a marriage. There was a reason that your niece left her husband and her kids.
Has it occurred to you that her husband is a real loser?
Caroline, I wonder about it to. I don’t know how they got away with it. My brother was an elder at the time. My niece says she was never physically or mentally attracted to her husband. My brother says the fact they didn’t get into trouble for immorality shows there was something wrong with his son in law. My brother and his wife live with their son in law and baby sit. I wonder about it to. How did they get away with that? I thought the truth must have changed. My brother stepped down as an elder to help his wife baby sit. His son in law was removed as an elder for not keeping his household in order. I wonder about it to.
Alexandria, I think your niece was under pressure to marry her husband since he was living in the same house etc. She was never given the chance to live her life and find someone that she really could have been attracted to. Nineteen was way to young for a girl like that to marry a man in his thirty’s.
Alexandria, what I meant by the age difference is that she didn’t have the wisdom to make her own choice with the guy living in the house like he was. To me, it seems like stalking on his part. Her parents should never have let him move into the house like they did and now they can’t get rid of him.
Caroline, I think you’re right. I remember my niece said, at the time, she hoped he would change his mind about marrying her. I think you got it right. She must have felt pressured. She says she will never live with her parents again. I feel that’s healthy. My brother is used to being the head. She used to get caught in the middle between her husband and her parents.
Almost sounds like an ‘arranged marriage’!
I would have no kid read these books to answer intimate questions such as the ones addressed in those books. I think parents should help their kids with these type of questions. The one-size-fits-all Watchtower and its books are the main reason people have left the organization entirely.
I’m going to write the definitive Life Manual. It will have 1 page. U open the cover, it says, “Sh*t happens. Good Luck.”
Let me add a couple of other short items.
-there is NO free lunch
-no one has all the truth
-you can only depend on yourself
YPA Volume 1 (2011) chapter 32: “How Can I Protect Myself From Sexual Predators?”
“Don’t send mixed messages. Avoid flirting or dressing provocatively. Such actions may send the message that you’re interested in getting physical—or at least that you wouldn’t object to it.” In other words, YPA suggests if you are raped while dressing WT unapproved, it is partly your fault. This contradicts what they say later in the article: “You are not to blame!”
“If you are a Christian, it is important that you speak to a congregation elder about what happened. The comforting words of a loving shepherd can assure you that as a victim of rape, you have not been defiled by someone else’s sin.” As usual, “sin” instead of “crime”. And they conveniently forget to mention that if the attacker is a JW and there was no second witness, nothing will be done.
“Speak to a congregation elder.” “I talked to a close friend.” “She told her parents about the abuse.” “Talking to God helped me.” “It might be wise to consult a physician.” “Keep a list of scriptures that can comfort you.” Incredible how nowhere in the article does it even mention the possibility of contacting the police. I guess Romans 13:3,4 doesn’t mean too much to the Governing Body.
Jarred, good analysis of the information in the YPA book. Also keep in mind that often a young woman has to “prove” to the elders that it was rape and not fornication. They may ask questions like “did you enjoy it?” and ask for other graphic details of the rape. Furthermore, the elders have zero training as counsellors or therapists and therefore have no idea on how to assist a person who is a victim of such a violent crime.
WS
THIS is exactly one of the reasons I chose the YPA book as my topic. Bad, bad, bad, advice all around. One needs to only look at the other posts on this site to see how Watchtower’s “report & pray” methods have caused harm to a number of members. Most notably the victims of sexual abuse who receive no real counseling or justice.
Glad you picked it. The first step towards me leaving the organization was boredom. Then one day I realized why. It hit me how empty the organization’s teachings were. Basically it all revolved around meetings, preaching, and prayer. I’d go to meetings to hear talks about going to meetings. I’d preach to try and convert people (thankfully I never succeeded) to bring them to meetings so they could hear talks about preaching and going to meetings. And prayer was to increase “spirituality” to be motivated to preach and go to meetings. And round and round it went.
Eventually I saw their teachings were not just boring, but even harmful at times. I don’t think I’ve looked at YPA since I left, but now that I’ve looked at it without the brainwashing effect, it’s easy to see how terrible the advice is. There’s a reason why “the world” makes people go to school for years and gives out diplomas as proof of qualification to teach children. Because a teacher can have a lifetime effect on a child, for good or bad. The Governing Body has NO QUALIFICATIONS to be able to teach children. And there are many experiences that testify to that.
There we go blaming the victim, “You didn’t scream old enough, your fault”, “you dress too provocatively”
Of course none of this could apply to a child, and it shouldn’t apply to an adult either. A million studies have been completed and show rape and sexually assault of adults is an act of power over another person not sexual in nature. With Child Predators it is sexual of a very sick and twisted kind. Just another example of the WT using misinformation to reduce a complex issue to sin on the part of the victim.
Do you sometimes get the feeling that the GB intentionally takes a contrarian view on an issue to only be different that the rest of the world! And their audience is so misinformed and unread that they take it all in as inspired truth?