At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
- Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
- My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
On the Mike & Kim fiasco I was secretly kinda hoping you would just laugh it off and ignore it. I saw the John Wayne ‘this town ain’t big enough for the two of us’ video Mike did and I was deeply embarrassed on his behalf. I understand why you had to respond. It was childish, but more seriously, the threat, though obviously not intended to be followed through, was violent. I abhor violence and I don’t think it is funny or to be joked about, and I said as much to them. Keep doing what you do with intelligence and humor and I’ll keep watching. I’ll never be an atheist, but I’ll never be an evangelical or belong to any religion or live by any ‘holy book’ again. There are a lot of us out there who aren’t in either camp, but still enjoy a good dust up of the Watchtower done with such skill.
OMG Lloyd, I read your whole dialogue and am shocked and sadden you still get so much grief and crap, are people that crazy about there beliefs they will attack you.
I belong to the group of Ex jw Australia and
New Zealand and we meet up we have so many difference of opinions and beliefs .
I’m a agnostic with a view there is a creator yet I believe in the earth. I hope you are successful in what ever you put your mind too and I wish you well .
Mike seemed to be wearing a Davy Crockett outfit and I too was embarrassed for him. It was not well thought out.
They have a right to critique others, of course, but it could have been done with tact, respect and love.
Maybe Rutherford was on to something whe he had those early JW’s wearing sandwich boards saying “Religion is a snare and a racket”…..
I heard an interesting idea about religion, supposedly based upon linguistic anthropologists belief that Religion is “A language virus” and inhibits critical thinking. That would make sense because looking through history there is not a single language group of people that did not have religion. In fact all religion is based upon the fear of death and the life in the here-after whether it’s heaven, paradise earth, hell, reincarnation or even complete destruction or non existence every single language group of people believe in a god or gods….
That’s seems to confirm why you can meet a very intelegent person who is a critical thinker until it comes to their faith and then out comes the “crack-pot”, who believes in flying monkeys…
Yep… Gotta be a language virus…
@ G.Jackson (GB) limited education – 8th grade level.
The word used by Bret, ‘Linguistic’ this means; belonging to language or pertaining to.
‘Anthropologists’ this means; a person who specializes in anthropology.
FYI – ‘Anthropology’ this means; the science that deals with the origins, physical and cultural development.
Here at JWSurvey, we are user friendly to all levels of education. We are not a simplified version of what you put out at Sunday worship. Some of your friends, even call this a ‘dump down version’ imagine that!
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
Peace out,
Hi Lloyd,
Speaking as an outsider, i truly believe you have done an wonderful job with this site. This is one of the most helpful sites (second only to JWFacts) for resources . Your videos were truly awesome in debunking the GB myth. Keep up the good work. The common sense and wit in your videos and blog are enough to counter any claim without having to resort to theology. Unfortunately , as i learnt to my bitter sorrow,when it comes to religion, common sense is not so common.
Hi Cedars,
I’ve followed your blog for years and your journey from theist to atheist. Although I don’t agree with the conclusion of atheism you now hold, I still deeply respect you and your blog.
Be assured if you ever came to my house or if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you, I will give you a big hug, meal and somewhere to stay. I mean that.
It is a shame that you feel that you have to go to ‘war’ with your detractors and in some way, this might actually signal to them that they are winning. In my view I don’t think you should give them that satisfaction.
You have shown great restraint, balance and respect to Jehovah’s Witnesses and to be honest, I doubt whether I would have been able to have done so. Ironically, as an atheist you have shown those ‘haters’ what turning the other cheek means. Please don’t give up now.
As an ex-JW, but remaining as a Christian theist, I have a loathing for the so called Governing Body. I could not politely express my views and the contempt that I hold them in on this forum. But somehow, with restraint, sensitivity and clever writing you have managed to be a voice of reason in a sphere as you pointed out that can be very acrimonious. I fear if you change tact, you could loose some of readership and support.
In anycase, whatever happens in the future I will still follow you. I would just ask that you don’t become strident and shrill, like Richard Dawkins. I know that his aggressive type of neo-atheism dosen’t even appeal to many atheist.
If you are ever in London, drop me an email as I would love to meet up with you and take you out for a meal or drink. As I said before, you’ve done a great work and atheist or otherwise, I see you as a fellow human, just trying to find out the answers we are all looking for.
Hi Cedars
I too am an atheist and it was a natural fit for me to go from JW to atheist. I explored all the major religions when I left “the truth” as a rebellious action. You know; just because now I could. And found them all culturally interesting and valid as a belief system for others but not for me. Cults are very attractive to fascists. And unfortunately fascists can be found everywhere. Especially in fundamental religions. These abusers clearly just have fascist beliefs no matter what religion they belong to. Putting yourself out there as you do lays you open to attack. Personally I prefer your wifes way. Just dust yourself down and carry on. But that doesn’t mean we don’t need people like you that carry the torch for those of us that cant, wont or don’t. So don’t think you don’t have support. Good luck and keep up the good fight.
Cheryl
I am an ex JW and have embraced Christianity when I left what I believe to be more about Christ than any religion, I am not an evangelical.
I just want to say it does not bother me if a person is atheist or not that is your business and yes I have listened and read both sides of the argument and find it interesting and rewarding, learning should never cease
I come for the information as I do all utube channels as well, to help JW.
Thank you cedars for all your time work.
Thank you for your thoughts on all this. I find that I am so sad to hear the depth of what is going on. While I have been “out” for a very long time, a few years ago, I stumbled on all these newer exjw videos by all of those you mention, including yours, and found them all to be helpful in their variety of personalities and viewpoints in laying down some lingering things from my hurts from being a jw. And then I watched as mud slinging began and essentially backed away from many of them. I would like to believe that all of these people, in their deepest intention, truly want to help those in to get out-as do you. I appreciate your candor very much. It does seem that some have turned to a more “watch out Watchtower-we’re gonna punch you where it hurts” sort of vindictive reaction. I understand that we all have that part of the healing to go through-but I don’t think we need to “live” there for too long. Too bad the exjw community cannot be united. But it is what it is–it seems it is like what can be found in any family. You have the crazy uncles, the zealots, the mellow go with the flow types, the backstabbers, and on and on. And as in any family, we choose which ones we will be close to. And if we were to look at it, like I used to, that we are “brothers” or “sisters” in that we have in common this experience of having been a jw-it can be really upsetting to discover that even in the exjw community there cannot be found “paradise”. But, what is not ok is attacking anyone they way you have been attacked. I would say the same if they were being attacked this way. I guess this is just a long way of saying that after being a jw, indoctrinated in being an expert in being intolerant, harsh, judgmental and having a superiority complex (we are the only ones that have the “truth”), I find it so distasteful to see that so many activist exjws have not come to find the place of tolerance, acceptance, and even love, for their fellow escapees-allowing that all of us are on our individual healing journeys. Thanks for keeping on with the good work you are doing. I for one will continue to support you.
A few weeks ago I came across a video by the said mikey and kim which I find to be downright repulsive.Full of angry hateful threatening speech..It was so repulsive that I strongly chastised them as to the wrongfulness of their actions and promptly unsubscribe from their channel..The scriptures say that any man of violence Jehovah certainly hates..The trouble with mikey and kim is:They are deeply hurt and in great mental anguish over the lost of family relationship due to watchtower shunning policy..And as such they let that bitterness make them lash out angrily and bitterly not just at watchtower but at anyone they view as a threat to their vindictive egos..Anyone joining them will become just like them.. On the other hand: Is it not also an infringement when they obtain and distribute elders letters and other watchtower material on watchtower.expose. ??? How can they justify criticizing others, when in fact they themselves are guilty of the same things…Mr John Cedars: You have done a great deal in a responsible and respectful way to awaken and enlighten others, The same as Jw facts..Don’t waste your time with folly, as mikey and kim just wants to be the only voice that is heard. I hope Mark and Cora do not become duped by them…mikey and kim cares only about they own egos..Bottom line.
Chin up Cedars!
To the Yin of “Haters gonna hate” is the Yang of “Lovers gonna love”!
I can’t add a lot to what’s already been said, but I’d just like to add my voice to the supporters. I do hope that this awful debacle isn’t going to cause you and your family any lasting damage and that you please take care of yourself and your health. As someone who is still suffering some residual effects of C-PTSD & anxiety, and find it difficulty to be an effective activist when speaking with those who are still in the org, I can only be in complete awe of the hard work, time and dedication that you put into your positive activism.
I’d also like to thank you for replying to my comment on ‘that’ YouTube about your publication, and taking it in the spirit in which it was meant (FoxyDevonLady on YouTube); that as someone in publisher explaining the laws of copyright and it’s terminology, and not as someone caught up in the arguments.
All the very best wishes, Lloyd. Chin up, chuck! :)
Going from one religion/cult that preaches it’s the only truth to another religion/cult that preaches it’s the only truth is like jumping from the frying pan to the fire. lol
Getting back to our old friends the WT, I recently viewed a media exposee (I believe it was on an Australian show called “Sunday”) on YouTube, in regard to the cases of JW child abuse in Australia (kudos to the Aussie press!!!!!). Reference was made to the Jehovah’s Witness organization as a “Pedophile’s Paradise”. So much for the “Spiritual Paradise”…RIP.
Frankly, I think it’s a good thing “apostates” don’t work together as one big “Army.” It’s more honest that way. Everyone is free to “rage against the machine” in their own way and their own good time. Now WT has to fight a war on 50 fronts instead of just 1. Historical precedent: WWII — The French Resistance, The Dutch Resistance, The Greek Resistance, even the GERMAN Resistance!! etc. The Nazis must have had their hands full by the time the Big Boys stormed the beaches on D-Day!
To any current JW’s reading this: Ever notice how the elders and their wives SUCK YOUR ENERGY by constantly demanding your admiration and deference?
Please elaborate more on what you mean by that statement. I dont quite follow.
@ G.Jackson (GB) limited education – 8th grade level.
and Drew.
The word used by a4, ‘admiration’ this means;
A feeling of wonder, pleasure, or approval.
‘Deference’ this means; respectful submission or yielding to the judgment, opinion, will of another.
Here at JWSurvey, we are user friendly to all levels of education. We are not a simplified version of what you put out at Sunday worship. Some of your friends, even call this a ‘dumb down version’ imagine that!
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
Peace out,
Jael, Barak, Ezekiel, Mephibosheth. Man, am I glad I’m OUT! No more crazy Hebrew names to remember. What a pain in the ass!
Shadrach, Meshach and to bed we go
Why would you say that your fellow ex- jws have “troubled minds”? It seems like your borrowing that term from your so called “deluded men” from Brooklyn with a little twist. I find it kind of funny that people here are posting how balanced your views are about the Watchtower. I can’t agree with that. But if your helping people that have been spiritually abused by their fellow JWs keep it up. I have seen the Brooks couple and they appear to be a couple of idiots.
Hi Lloyd, I have been studying the character of people I read in Watchtower’s Publication… but believe me, you will have to struggle with these “evangelical apostates” and reason will prevail.
After I got out the Watchtower, here in Africa I could not believe to have a balanced apostate website like yours… Some “apostates” discussion I could read were about stories of CROSS vs STAKE, Jesus is or Savior and God and stupid stories like those… until REASON (not god or Jesus) directed me to your rational reason…
They will be defeated… They are enemies of reason!! Let them discuss Crosses and Stakes and keep up good attitudes and be strategic.
Hi,
Am from Kenya and often i travel to Rwanda.. Think we can hook up….. and discuss more
Hi Lloyd, I do suspect that this harassment is starting to get you down again, or maybe that is my fear.
I looked around a bit before subscribing to JW Survey and I can assure you that you by `far and away’ have struck the perfect balance in what you present, compared to any other activist I have checked out.
Regarding Mike and Kim I watched a video of theirs some time back and I read people prety well and quickly, as I have been in business since I was 16, and learnt quickly that skill was a must to master. So I have not revisited Mike and Kim’ site since the experience of the first 10min of that video. Guess that is my built in protection barrier at work now days.
For any who bother to read this post, I ask that you consider financial support for Lloyd for his great work, if you have a similar appreciation. I give via Patreon probably not as much as I should, but it is easy and safe to do so, and very important as someone like Lloyd with all of his great qualities and skills do not come along often. He needs to support his family and somehow find the time to do what many of us can not do. In that sense he represents us.
Thanks again Lloyd.
When I first started looking for some answers I stumbled across these two. I found them repulsive ignorant and hateful. I didn’t watch them again until last night after I read your post and yes my first impression of them was correct. I haven’t made it to the athiest side completely however it seems that since I was released mentally from the JW doctrine I don’t want any religion holding me hostage again!
I love how logical you are and have even been able to convince my husband to start reading some of your stuff and believe me no other person has been able to get thru to him. So thank you and take care.
Keep up the good work!
MiniLove,
Like you, while searching for reason and truth, also stumbled across the Brooks. I found them to be idiots. Then I found this site and I knew it was logical, respectful, and I love it. I hope your husband will appreciate the offerings on this site, too.
Sorry for all the posts, but I’m on a bit of a roll (strong coffee).
I’ve always been amused by the Jehovah’s Witness philosophy (yes, I know it’s technically a bible-based “belief”, whatever) that all human conflicts can be solved with “love.” It doesn’t take a Ph.D. in Political Science to realize that the causes of human conflict are many, varied, and complex. Quite often, it takes long, difficult, complex negotiations in order to avert a war. eg. Cuban Missile Crisis
Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, in their “genius”, have reduced all of this (what we adults refer to as REALITY) to a simple-minded mantra reminiscent of the old “Hippie” generation, or worse yet, to the mental level of a Dr. Seuss children’s story.
They superstitiously believe that by repeating a certain word like “love” or “jehovah” over and over and over again, they will “generate” some kind of mystic “effect”. I know they don’t CONSCIOUSLY believe this, but their behavior betrays their SUBCONSCIOUS beliefs (or at least, FANTASIES). This is truly psychotic behavior. Psychiatric professionals have a running joke: Normal people build castles in the sky. Psychotics LIVE in them.
Their ideas and methods are just as nonsensical as those who believe World Peace can be achieved if only everyone smoked Pot all the time. Sure, there may be peace, but there would be a hell of a lot more traffic accidents!
Repeating the same words over and over AD NAUSEUM does not accomplish a goddamned thing, except making one look very foolish, simple-minded, and IGNORANT.
Ironically, die-hard Jehovah’s Witnesses are EXACTLY the type of mindless zombies who would pick up a machete and hack their neighbor to pieces at the drop of a hat, if ordered to by their superiors, say, hypothetically, over the radio? (remember the Rwandan Genocide?), or perhaps JW Broadcasting??? I’m not trying to frighten or shock anyone, just trying to make a point, that if you peel away the CHEAP facade, you see something entirely different.
“Would you like Green Eggs and Ham? Would you like them, Sam I am?”
Save the Dr. Seuss for the kids, Watchtower.
@anonymous4
You are right. I live in Rwanda and joined Jehovah’s Witnesses after the horrors of the Genocide you are talking about… I thought I was joining a different people until I realized the Watchtower uses exactly the same ideology which led to the Genocide and decided to quit as I could witness first hand that I had joined the same people and the same ideology.
Look for instance what they have written about the Genocide:
*** w95 1/1 p. 7 par. 10 Triumphing Over Satan and His Works ***
Hundreds of our brothers and sisters were killed. But in one congregation of 65 Kingdom publishers, where 13 were killed, meeting attendance increased to 170 by August 1994
*** w11 9/1 p. 3 Is There Someone Behind All Evil? ***
“I SHOOK hands with the devil.” So said the commander of the United Nations forces in Rwanda, reflecting on their failure to stop the genocide in that land during 1994. Commenting on the unbelievable savagery at that time, another observer stated: “If someone still dares to deny Satan, meet me at a mass grave in Rwanda.” Are such atrocities really the work of the Devil?
You cannot imagine how JWs have increased as consequences of the Genocide and GB is not ashamed to enjoy it publicly!!!!
Without trying to cause any racial tension, I see Jehovah’s Witnesses more and more as a White Man’s religion. It seems to be one of the tools the White Man uses to dominate the World. No self-respecting “Nigga'” like me would buy into such Honky jive, not anymore. Sure, they brainwashed me as a child. They initially had the advantage, the upper hand, and, yes, I bought it for a while, but I finally squirmed out from under that bootheel. “White man speak with forked tongue.”
P.S. No offence to anyone. I have white friends. I even consider myself to be kind of off-white. But JIVE is JIVE. Not gonna be fooled by no JIVE TURKEY never again!!!!!!!
…no jive turkey of ANY color or creed…white, black, brown, yellow, red, green, pink, purple, or Martian!
I’m wondering if you are being sarcastic or serious. All I can say is that in the South, congregations that are near 100% black are common. My mom’s congregation is probably 80-90% black. There are no racial barriers to being duped.
It is a sad and painful thing to witness ( no pun intended ) the social dementia of those who have lost their purpose. Remember Lloyd, attack…. equals fear…. and fear is what motivates this kind of unwarranted viciousness.
Though it is more than generous on your part to identify as an agnostic/atheist for the benefit of your readers I believe that people are in a constant flux of moral and intellectual evolution that has many layers, none of which can ever really be defined as the final layer. Most thinking people understand this reflexively while those who are consigned to obey more primitive human emotions simply see it as a target that must be destroyed in their frantic search for the finish line that does not actually exist.
With the addition of more and greater knowledge we continue to grow, morph and develop into something that we hope is better in the next moment than it was in the last. No one can do any better than this no matter who they are or what they portray themselves as. The fulfillment of such a life course is evident to those who realize the instant benefits of such elevated thinking because the feedback is immediate and the indications powerfully consistent.
I don’t have to agree with all of your positions to enjoy the wonderfully honest gesture of unselfish care for fellow man that is present throughout your offerings here on the net.
Thanks again
JO
Suggested name change: from Jehovah’s Witnesses to Jivehovah’s Witnesses :)
It’s hard to believe that anyone would still pursue religion, after the JW Experience.
Lol hit the decaff bro ;) I’ve only had one cup of java this am and can’t keep up :)
It’s definitely a scam
I am an active jw. This is my favorite website and I check it every day I can. It is the respect, wonderful writing, and clear logic that makes it wonderful. Please keep up the good work Lloyd.
I can’t take the evangelical or aggressive sites or channels. They wear on my nerves.
Thank you Lloyd.
@ Jamie,
There is a difference, here, the no Spin Zone, its true or its not!
Therapy through reading the facts.
Here at JWSurvey, we are user friendly to all levels of education. (This includes G.Jackson, 8th education) We are not a simplified version of what you put out at Sunday worship. Some of your friends, even call this a ‘dumb down version’ imagine that!
JWSurvey =
1) “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
2) ” Guardians-of-Scripture”
3). “The no Spin Zone”
4). “It’s ture or its not”
5). “You decide”
Peace out,
Don’t agree about your atheism , but otherwise I appreciate your work . The Book ‘ Crises of Conscience ‘ should have been made available to all jw or ex jw , at no cost , a long time ago .
Think about your atheism views more seriously .
my twitter site ” Complain_2_EPA”. Criminal activity ongoing more than 12 years
Lloyd, I always enjoy every video you produce and every article you have on jwsurvey. I appreciate the time you put into your videos and jwsurvey. I go to this site a lot during the day and I try and read every comment. It has helped me get through this awful position I am in, with being marked by my congregation for nothing that I did wrong except to question the motives of the Organization.
I know most all the Witnesses are ignorant of the real reason for the religion of JW’s and maybe two years ago, I might have done the same thing to someone else that those people are doing to me because I was so brainwashed but it hurts so much to know how the people who I thought were my friends and relatives would turn on me like they did, the moment the elders could get up in the front and give a marking talk about me, without even asking me my side of it. But, I’d rather know now what kind of “friends” they are then to be in the dark. It’s when a person comes right out and says how they feel about something like their religion or their belief in the Bible, is when you find out who your real “friends” really are.
I am brave enough now to tell people that I don’t believe in the Bible any more and the looks on their faces are of horror. They picture me as a person with horns coming out of my head. I can see it in their faces, the moment it comes out of my mouth. But, weren’t we all trained to go from door to door and talk to atheists? Why should it be so horrifying to them to talk to me and ask me why I don’t believe in the Bible anymore? We as Witnesses were supposed to go from door to door and confront all kinds of people, either who believed in the Bible or who didn’t believe in the Bible so why not give me a good reason to believe in the Bible just the same as a person at the door?
I looked in the Reasoning Book and it has no answer to an atheist except to go to pages 146 and 147 and read what that book says to them. But how does a Witness or any “believer” answer an atheist who has some really intelligent questions? They don’t have any answers except for what the Reasoning books tells them to say.
On websites like Mike and Kim’s website and what most apologists say is to attack the personality of a non-believer instead, instead of giving some solid reasons for believing in God. If there was solid evidence, I can’t imagine anybody not believing in God. That is what we are all looking for.
It is not that I don’t believe in God. I don’t know how we got here and I don’t believe there is anybody who insists on how life began. I don’t know how life began, but to say God made it is too simple for me. I want some solid evidence before I will believe and give up my life for that God.
Most dyed-in-the wool “Christians” have been brainwashed all their lives to think that without the Bible to guide them, that a person just has to be evil. Those people are just as brainwashed as anybody belonging to any religion, who thinks they are the only ones who have the “truth”. I was like that too. I believed without asking for any “proof”. Now I want some proof.
I am glad you are going to do some videos on why you are not a believer. I don’t like to spoil people’s view of the Bible as being from God because I know it gives people a lot of comfort to read the good parts of it, but there’s so much in that “good book” that tells me it could not be from a perfect “God”.
When some of my friends who have talked to me who aren’t afraid to talk to me, I come right out and tell them I don’t believe in the Bible anymore and they seem so afraid that God is going to kill me at Armageddon but now I put the onus on them. They have to tell me why I should believe it after telling them some of the bad parts of the Bible that they don’t even know are in there.
Pleaae explain on what parts in the bible as an active witness we are supposed to help out any that do want to learn or ask why? Jesus didn’t turn from speaking to the Pharisee did he?
Lloyd, what an excellent and helpful article on apostasy. I would perhaps disagree with you on your view on evangelical Christianity. If you were to visit, for example, an evangelical Church of England congregation you would find a very different approach to belief and practice from that, say, in the American Bible-belt. Jehovah’s Witnesses use the term apostasy to describe any belief system that does not conform to their own, so they would call me an apostate since I left their organisation as a teenager and am now an Anglican clergyman. However, I would not accept their term for myself and describe myself as a Christian believer. I was once asked by a Witness, not realising who I was, how long I had been “in the truth”. My reply was, “About fifty years, since I left the Watchtower Society.”
Hi Cedars isn’t this a turn up for the books! As with many of us on our journey out some develop a voracious appetite in our search for a sympathetic ear and a soapbox on occasion. I have looked at most of the you tube stuff and yours is clearly the best. Your incite and wisdom have been and continue to be so valuable to us. I am 100% a god believer (trying not to sound too evangelical). and that is exactly why I like to hear your point of view. I don’t think I will ever have the courage to make the complete jump to atheism but what I do recognize in us god types,that we are closed minded on occasions . This site strikes a balance because we all are at different stages of recovery and will wind up with differing conclusions. That is healthy and nothing to get all hot under the collar about. Those who oppose you are critical rather than critical thinkers so don’t take too much personally. We still want you to continue. Seeing as this new phase of the exjw community is in its infancy there will be teething troubles and pain but that’s all. Kids grow up don’t they? there is no need for wood on the fire. In UK there was the dissolution of the monasteries as a drastic jealous act. All it has accomplished in our history is religious change, new money men and beautiful ruins to paint and wax lyrical. Or maybe it liberated just a few from their bondage and so was worth it. Keep the site running please you are valued and this is part of history and I hope will of service in the future. Best wishes ruthlee
Thank you Lloyd for such a frank and sincere article. I must admit that I was staunchly defending you against your latest round of attacks. Why? Because as an agnostic atheist I cherish my beliefs. They are mine and mine alone. I am done with the days of having to read and study WT publications to find out what I believe on a subject. When I was a JW I had to go somewhere other than myself to find out what I believe! Can you believe it? Now my thoughts are my very own and I cherish each and every one of them. I refuse to give up that personal sovereignty because some people do not agree with it or my personal beliefs may challenge the validity of their worldview. My attack on Mike and Kim was harsh and unrelenting. Do I regret it? No. I was defending myself as much as I was defending you. However, I do see your point that essentially it is fruitless to try and reason with them. I felt that while they were making these attacks people needed to hear the other side and not sit in some echo chamber that did not really reflect all of the differing views. Ultimately it took me down a rabbit hole where rational and fairness were obsolete in favor of unfair ad hominem attacks on anyone who had a different opinion. Please keep up your activism. I wish I could add my voice a lot more to the discussion, but unfortunately I have a wife that is very active and fully indoctrinated. I love her very much and do not want to strain our relationship, so activism is not in the cards right now. As a side note, if she watched all of this drama her views on apostates as being “mentally diseased” would be confirmed. From now on I will refrain from defending you because I do not want to feed into the psychosis of anyone who is divisive and the ultimate goal of all activists should be to help people escape the cult. Thank you for writing this article.
When I first started checking out anti-JW websites I saw a few ‘foam-at-the-mouth’ born again types. They simply jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. May I say that I thoroughly approve of your clear, calm, nuetrally-stanced, reasoned blogs. Keep up your good work mate.
Miked and Kim are angry misfits and I couldn’t imagine being members of the same congregation when I was still in the cult. But others who are ‘bitching’ and ones who have been partners up to recently and have become anti-johncedars saddens me. Its not as simple as a copy-rite issue its more of a sectarian divide. Ive followed everybody in the EXjw world and taken everybody’s experiences as encouragement and have felt emboldened to carry on. But now I feel that its time to get on with my life outside the exjw community. Disillusioned!
A “Cease & Desist” letter? Taking a leaf out of the Scientologist’s book now, are they? Pathetic.
Dear Lloyd ,
You’re obviously a kind and sensible person, your approach reminds me of Ray franz! No need to respond to some of these attacks! You are in a much higher league! We can win people over by showing kindnes and good judgement. Proving that “good people” is not something the “organization” has a patent On !
Lloyd- so sorry you are dealing with this! Please never stop doing what you do. Your writing is level-headed and intelligent and I enjoy listening to you on the podcasts and reading your website.
Jack Nicholson as the president of the United States in Mars Attacks
Hi Lloyd your work is awesome. Mike and kim are annoying as hell. Your work helped us break free. Take pride in that. I am an antitheist so don’t feel that you’re alone. Thanks for everything!
I stumbled on this website a few years ago but seldom visit it anymore.It keeps popping up when a google anything relating to JWs.
As a believer in things we can not explain by present science,physics etc.(I don,t want to get into a debate). I think its time to change the name of this website to JWsurvey “a voice to the silent ATHEIST majority! Then maybe all those religious nut jobs might leave you alone!
Lloyd you’re site and videos were 100% what I needed when I was on my way out and your site also played a large role in that. I will not name names – but honestly the parties bringing you trouble played very little in my awakening.
I often think “If I showed my believing family this would they take it seriously?” and most of the time I would think “No.”
When I saw people yelling inside KH’s during memorial and being extremely in their face in public – I was embarrassed for them because it wasn’t accomplishing anything. That sort of activism is self serving and I cannot see how it helps. It always seemed like some like to make a spectacle of themselves – and to me it comes across as borderline narcissistic.
I can speak from experience that I am educated and that kind of activism would NEVER have worked on me. I would have shut down mentally. And kudos to you for not making specific videos targeting people you don’t like. I just watched one last night from one of these factions – he’s sitting in front of a bunch of action figures in a dark room going from exhibit A) to exhibit B) on you – and all I can think of is “Doesn’t this meat head realize he isn’t in high school anymore?” Seriously you are out of the cult and this is how you are spending your time?
Now would I give you a complete pass – no – as I agree sometimes like me I can get into some back and forth dialogue with someone. But you always come across respectful and thought out. I think in your early days you allowed yourself to get a little drawn into some comment squabbles with people who disagreed with you. Nothing wrong with that – but they have been trying to hold some of your comments over your head. I think your time is too valuable to debate with some of those who seek to get a rise from you. Just my two cents.
Thank you for all you do, have done and continue to do. You have done wonders for many of us
*cheers*