It’s been nearly three years since JWsurvey was launched and we began posting blog articles on JW-related subjects.
In that period we have been beset by more than our fair share of Watchtower defenders and apologists, who have shown great commitment in chastising anyone who would speak negatively of “Jehovah’s organization.”
The irony, of course, is that Witnesses who comment on this website do so in direct defiance of the instructions of their leaders, the Governing Body, who have made it abundantly clear in the publications that Witnesses are not to comment on the blogs of ‘apostates’ (any who reject Watchtower teachings).
But this doesn’t stop loyal advocates of Watchtower having their say, and I for one am glad of their albeit conflicted behavior. Provided such ones don’t become abusive or insulting, or try to turn this website into their own private soapbox, it’s quite an educational experience for people visiting this blog to see for themselves how profoundly Watchtower indoctrination can influence people – to the point where they will defend the indefensible.
I’ve personally been trying to reason with apologists both here and on other sites for years using various lines of argument, admittedly with little success. There is, however, one argument I’ve stumbled on that tends to stop loyal JWs in their tracks, or causes them to quickly change the subject. I’ve grown so weary of repeating it, with no reply, that I’ve decided to turn it into a video that can be easily posted as a response to apologists whenever (or wherever) they emerge. Here it is…
As stated in the video, whatever argument an apologist may use to defend Watchtower, whether it is about charitable work, or political neutrality, or preaching prowess, it should all boil down to one question – “is it true, or isn’t it?”
If the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are true, there should be bountiful evidence to back them up. It should be easy, for example, to prove the teachings surrounding 1914, 1919 and Christ’s selection of the “faithful slave” (beyond the non-argument “it’s true because we say it is”).
Any attempt to reason away the need to give evidence for such foundational teachings, upon which the very authority of the Governing Body is based, deserves to be met with the same derision that Witnesses might unleash on believers of other religions.
The Mormons, for example, believe that Joseph Smith had the Book of Mormon conveyed to him in the form of golden plates, which conveniently disappeared once he had finished dictating their contents from behind a curtain.
A Mormon would no doubt take exception to a Witness deriding him for basing his entire belief system on a story that is completely unverifiable. But should not Witness beliefs be open to the same scrutiny? How is it possible to either prove or disprove the arrival of an invisible Jesus in 1914, or his inspection of the bible students between that year and 1919?
As the popular saying goes, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” If a religion makes unfalsifiable claims aimed at venerating itself above other faiths, it is not the duty of me or anyone else to disprove those claims. The burden of evidence rests with the person making them. This is especially true when family relationships or even life itself is in the balance, as is the case with Watchtower’s position on shunning and blood transfusions.
Though I have no doubt that my “Cedars Challenge” will continue unanswered (and that JWsurvey will be around for many more years to come), I can at least hope that it will prompt some indoctrinated Witnesses to think.
The universe offers enough marvels and wonders upon which our minds can ruminate without any need for us to allow transient religious dogma to stifle our intellects, supplant our need for evidence and free inquiry, and potentially decimate our families.
Freedom challenges :-) x
Most witnesses I know personally, don’t ever talk or even know about the history of their religion. I can honestly say by just doing a simple wiki search on the organization and especially reading about Rutherford, my eyes were open. I asked a witness friend of mine to do a search for the year of Jerusalem’s destruction (607 B.C. is very important for the calculation of the year 1914) he was amazed to see the year 587 BC. My advice to everyone is most definitely to do your own research, don’t allow anyone to take your freedom of thought. “to learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize” -Volfaire
If you all want a good laugh, watch Cult Destroyer Mike and Kim Brooks’ video on Youtube called The Governing Body’s Credentials, part 1 and part 2. In those videos, they discuss an article in the March 1, 1981 Watchtower pages 24-27 called “Do You Appreciate the Faithful and Discreet Slave? and on page 27 there’s a list of 80, which is described as a “partial” list of “Overwhelming Credentials of the Faithful and Discreet slave since the “notable” year of 1919. I am going to list just a few and if you want to die laughing, you should read the entire list.
(1) Noah’s wife. (2) angels sent to Lot (3) Rebekah (4) Joseph and Benjamin (5) gleanings left behind (6) Naomi and Ruth (7) Barak (8) Jephthah (9) Naomi and Ruth (10) David’s Israelite warriors (11) Jehu (12) Mordecai and Esther (13) Job (14) King’s daughter (15) men of loving kindness (16) Intimate group (17) Shear-jashub (18) light of the nations (19) big trees of righteousness (20) ministers of our God (21) cluster preserved (22) servants called by another name (23) men trembling at God’s word (24) new nation born (25) Jehovah people in the new covenant (27) enduring watchman (28) man in linen (29) cleansed people (30) dwellers in center of earth.
There are 50 more of these “overwhelming” examples in that list just as silly as these first 30.
Do you, all who are in the “truth”, who want to defend the Faithful and Discreet’s credentials, explain all these “overwhelming” credentials to prove that these 7 men in New York have been appointed by God as your overseers?
Did the Society come up with these “overwhelming” credentials by going eeny meeny mynee mo by throwing their Bibles up in the air and when they landed on the table, then putting their hands over their eyes, point to a scripture?
Who in their right mind can apply these examples to anything except a very weak red herring to deflect attention from the real question with no real examples that they can come up with?
I am anxiously waiting for someone who is really a lot smarter than I am to explain these 80 “overwhelming examples to me.
Bravo! could not agree more. Doing my own research was how my eyes became open. Its was scary at first but the world is know a very exciting place to explore
Excellent job on the vid! Missed your meeting with the “cult”
people in London by one week. My wife and I took a tour of Europe the week of the tenth. One week later they are issuing super high terror alerts. Would have really liked meeting you, but glad we aren’t there now! Glad to be safe in Green Bay WI USA
J.Ws, think they know the bible better than anyone else. But apart from
one or two memorised scriptures they use from door to door, most of
them cannot teach, or even study, the Bible, without a W,T,
publication.
I have a relative who has been an elder since that arrangement came
into operation in the 70s. I asked him to show me proof that the
W,T, Org. was appointed by Jesus in 1919 as God’s exclusive
channel. He just shook his head and made no reply. He did not
know the scriptures they use, in an attempt to support their claim.
The verses they use are in Rev chapt, 11. where it speaks of two
witnesses prophesying in sackcloth for 1,260 days. It requires a
complete suspension of reason to accept that these verses support
their claim.
Some parts of chapter 11 they explain as literal, and to try and make
it fit, other parts are given as symbolic. Using that method you can
make the bible mean anything you want. The only way you can believe
the 1919 claim, is by taking their word for it. Which is not a good
enough reason to join an organisation, that demands unquestioning
acceptance of all their doctrines, as well as many rules that are not
found in the Bible, plus a great deal of your time in meeting
attendance, and going from door to door to find more converts.
To anonymous. For further amusement, in that same issue of the WT (March 1, 1981), note this quote about the F&DS:
“The objectors may argue that not all of Christ’s anointed disciples have a share in preparing the spiritual food, so that perhaps the “slave” pictures only the leading ones and the domestics those they serve in the congregation. There is no point in trying to force an interpretation of the parable. Self deception is of no benefit and is spiritually damaging.”
Now compare that to the latest definition of the F&DS ( WT July 15, 2013):
“Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave?……that slave is a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence.Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served together at headquarters. In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehiovah’s Witnesses.”
Need I say more?
It all goes to show that its a cult. There was a time that there were 13 members of the GB and now there are 7. Why? When all of the remnant of their 144000 dies, and the end does not come, they will change their doctrine .
@Jimmy. Mike and Kim Brooks were trying so hard to do those videos seriously but it was almost impossible to do it without splitting a gut, laughing, especially when they told about that part about “self deception”. How many of us when were in the “zone” even questioned that nonsense? Man, were we self deceived or what?????
Only possibly slightly “off topic” However, after numerous sabotage and tampering attacks by the Watchtower Society’s online agents and embedded saboteurs, (which were reported and being closely watched by US and International authorities) the UN petition now only lacks 50 signatures so please make your expressions known below!
http://www.change.org/p/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave
they reached 4000 at the change.org site. nothing to fill out there. i thought they would need at least 10,000.
good to know.
I just think its sad that just because there are those of us who when we study the bible do not come to the same understanding are treated like were some sort of disease. adn not only do we loose out, so do those of our freinds adn family who still choose to believe that way
that alone tells me that isnt the true faith. if there is one.
Cedars, I think you will have a very long wait. I also don’t think you will be taking down the JWSurvey any time soon.
Rutherford was a fine man, he owned a Cadillac and lived in a mansion that is proof God blessed him. The G.B. today are poor and have very little because of Satan, therefore proof. I mean God blesses all whom he loves, no wait I mean God allows Satan to torment his followers.
1914 and 1919 are concealed by the all powerful Satan. I mean God is more powerful than Satan. The proof that they are the faithful slave is hidden by Satans light that has blinded the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4) Satan is Darkness. Ohh wait he transforms himself into an angel of light, so he is light. Give me a minute I am thinking…
1+1 = 2
1+1 = 3
1+1 = whatever you want it to when reading the Bible, because it is full of contradictions and misleadings.
God is Love and yet he is the author of rape Zechariah 14:1-5
He is love yet he is proud, full of rage and selfish the opposite of 1 Cor 13
It says, he is, I am, meaning whatever story you need to make up for the time you live in, feel free.
If you believe in the Bible you are free to believe anything you want, because God is a huge contradiction. You want love, he is that, you want to rape, he is that, if you are proud, God is too. If you are humble so is God. The biggest obstacle to their proof is the Bible itself. It is just as twisted as they are. The G.B. are using a book that has beguiled centuries of believers and they are just as delusional as the book they represent.
I hope your challenge helps JWs out of the religion. If nothing else I found it entertaining.
How could I have spent so much of my life believing in non-sense? It made sense at the time. I just can’t remember what the sense was.
Loved your video Cedars. I’ll just settle back here and make myself comfortable while I wait on a response.
Hummm, I wonder if I have time to make popcorn? Or put my laundry in the dryer?
I hope someone responds soon…it’s already way past my bedtime.
I can’t stay awake much longzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jehovah’s Witnesses like to challenge and point out the hypocrisy of Christendom, but cannot answer basic questions about their own faith.
The obvious stupidity regarding their history is truly mind-blowing. Hopefully more and more Witnesses will awaken and see “the Truth” for what it is–one BIG Lie.
People hide behind what they call Jehovah to do all sort of evil. I doubt this was from a God or a god:
(Numbers 31:15-18) . . .Have you preserved all the females alive? […] Now you should kill every male among the children and kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man. 18 But you may keep alive all the young girls who have not had sexual relations with a man.
Those are the very roots of the Watch Tower Society and societies alike.
Hi Cedars
Well reasoned logic which would make sense as a defence by any rational thinker. I’ve tried it myself many times with members of my own family still ‘inside’. Unfortunately those on the inside recognize none of these skills of logic; and my approach has always collapsed because for them it is Faith that trumps the need for Truth and Evidence. According to them they have Faith that Christ starting ruling invisibly in 1914 etc. and that is enough. Why [they argue] the need to present any actual evidence of it? It’s a really tough one to get around, but I’m still trying! ;)
Have been enjoying your posts for years, but I was wondering why you’re still using the pseudonym Cedars as your real name (picture included) is mentioned publicly on another “apostate” website ?
Thanks! I’m now happy to use my real name (Lloyd Evans) and my pen name (John Cedars) interchangeably. :)
No-one is going to respond. Or feel the need to respond, because faith is a very powerful blindfold. My relatives say stuff like, “it will be revealed”. There is no reasoning, because they just sit with a self satisfied smile and feel sorry for us.
That self-satisfied smile is sooo annoying! *sigh* :(
That was @Patrice’s comment – not @Cedars btw… :D
Hi Cedars,
Just a thought re the July 15 Watchtower, 2013 page 19, para 12 re the FDS.
They claim not only did Jesus come to inspect the temple or spiritual arrangement, but Jehovah himself was present.
What a stretch, what a bold and outrageous claim. No scriptural support mentioned in that paragraph either re Jehovah.
Thanks for your efforts I enjoy reading your blog.
In the book published by the Watchtower called “God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached” 1973 on page 350, it says that when the Master found the Faithful and Discreet Slave giving all the proper feeding of the Domestics etc. when the Master returned (1914-1919) that it had to be because it was the “right sort of food”….(The Finished Mystery published during 1919 which is debunked and the Society is ashamed to quote from it) but then on page 353, it says that the Master then appoints the F & D Slave over all his “belongings” because they have gotten a promotion because the Master has been promoted in Heaven and the F & D Slave has been doing their job of feeding the proper food etc.
.. On page 357 of that same book, it says who the “belongings” are….”It has meant a great responsibility for the “faithful and discreet slave” class of spiritual Israelites to take care of this continually increasing “great crowd,” but they realize that these sheeplike ones “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues” are a precious part of “all his belongings” on the earth and so they are happy to take care of the spiritual needs of those “other sheep.” In turn, this “great crowd” is assisting the “faithful and discreet slave” in taking care of all the Lord’s earthly “belongings.”
So, because the F & D Slave was feeding the proper food (1919 Finished Mystery) they were appointed over all of Christ’s belongings on earth (Great Crowd). That meant the F & D Slave in affect “owned” the Great Crowd. That is why they supposedly had God-given authority over the Great Crowd because Jesus gave them that authority in 1919 because of the food they were feeding the Domestics. That is why they had the authority to disfellowship us and to force us not to take blood etc. because God gave them the authority to do so, or so they thought but notice what the 2013 July 15 Watchtower says on page 24….The question on paragraphs 15, 16 asks “When does Jesus appoint the Faithful Slave over all his belongings? The answer is “Hence, Jesus’ “arriving,” or “coming,” mentioned in the illustration of the Faithful slave takes place during the great tribulation.”
So, those two paragraphs say that Jesus doesn’t appoint the slave until during the great tribulation or his 2nd coming. Paragraph 17 asks: What do Jesus’ belongings include? Paragraph 17 says “What do “all (Jesus’) belongings” include? Jesus did not qualify the word “all,” as if to limit his belongings to earthly things. In fact, Jesus has vast heavenly authority. “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth,” he said. His belongings now include the Messianic Kingdom, which has belonged to him since 1914 and which he will share with his anointed followers.”
So, those paragraphs don’t say what those earthly things are but in the God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached says, it’s the “Great Crowd”. The 2013 July Watchtower doesn’t say what it means that the F & D Slave has been appointed over all his belongings (Great Crowd) either but the God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached did in the F & D Slave has been given all authority over the Great Crowd.
So, according to the “new light” in the 2013 July Watchtower, Jesus hasn’t yet given the F & D Slave the 2nd appointment over the Great Crowd. It isn’t going to happen until the Great Tribulation when Jesus arrives and finds the F & D Slave dispensing the proper food and Jesus is happy with what they are feeding the “Domestics” during the time of the end.
So, the Faithful and Discreet Slave has no God-Given power over us yet, not until the start of the Great Tribulation. Jesus has to do that during the Great Tribulation but at the beginning of the articles, it says that Jesus is going to judge the nations of the earth, depending on what the Faithful and Discreet Slave has been feeding the people and how they respond, whether they are deemed sheep or goats, right? So, since Jesus hasn’t appointed the Faithful and Discreet slave yet, how in the world would anybody know that the food they have been feeding them is the “right food” at the right time” in order for Jesus to judge them sheep or goats?
Also, what AUTHORITY has been given them over us since Jesus hasn’t appointed them over us with this “promotion” yet, that the God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years said they were supposed to have gotten in 1919 but they didn’t get yet?????
I also don’t think Cedars will get any replies. But I’d still like some answers to that Watchtower of 2013. If you read it closely, it raises more questions in my mind than answers any.
je suis un peut déçus que vos vidéo ne son pas soutitrée
car mon anglais n’est pas bon
mais je vous félicite pour votre combat conte les tj
tanks
daniel
JW’s should read Captives of a Concept by Don Cameron in which he proves from their own history and literature that their 1919 divine appointment claim is a lie. See:-http://captivesofaconcept.com/index_for_site_all.html
Cedars don’t hold your breath!
I see, brand awareness ;-)
Still curious though: what inspired you to use ‘John Cedars’ as pen name or is it just a random name ?
I see, brand awareness ;-)
Still curious though: what inspired you to use ‘John Cedars’ as pen name or is it just a random name ?
My first post on an Ex-JW forum was about the Cedar Point Ohio convention. :)
Hi,
Just to follow up on the previous comment:
There are 5000 signatures required and it is still short a few but equally important is for people to familiarize themselves with the content, text and verbiage of the United Nations Declarations and Resolutions found on the link page below. Also to make their cases known as well as reading the often very sad (and sometimes disturbing) but nonetheless informative cases of others for some very important reasons!
http://www.change.org/p/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave
@anonymous. July 15 2013 WT, page 23, para 13- the ‘domestics’ include the anointed and the Great Crowd. The GB feed the domestics, so this gives the GB their authority over them.
Of course this is all a bunch of crap, so don’t worry about it. It has no basis in scripture. This is just their latest version of the faithful slave parable, subject to change at any time they see fit. They’ve done it before- see my earlier comment above on this subject.
It is not clever arguing that defeats the JWs. I still stand by what is taught in John 5:39 Jesus said, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life” (NIV). I proved those words true 49 years ago today.
It is extremely hard to reason with narrow minded, close minded,self righteous minded and most of all a
BRAINWASHED MIND!
For those of you who don’t understand the power of suggestion and brain washing search you tube for
“Jane Elliot 3 grade experiment brown eyes vs blue eyes”
And when watching it pay particular attention to the expressions on those children’s faces.
Then think how you have felt when you were being indoctrinated by the society at assembly’s, meetings, circuit overseers, Elders etc etc.
Did you make faces or let your feelings boil knowing that this is just another attempt at keeping you in servitude to this cult type practicing religion?
So one can see how powerful authority figures can be.
These children’s minds were manipulated to believe in something that was false.
And it is no different with the Governing Body (self proclaimed authority) that they tell lies through their publications.
And when questioned they use all kinds of smoke screens to diffuse the present questioning of a subject.
I thought that experiment shows just how powerful something can be just by someone saying it is so.
No wonder around election time politicians spend millions of dollars on tv ads in order to persuade people to vote for them.
The watchtower society is nothing more then a billion dollar a year publishing company with free labor and they are not worthy of being tax exempt.
Most people at the Watchtower study in the July 15, 2013, wouldn’t have realized just what was being said or not said on page 14, when the question was asked in par. 15,16 “When does Jesus appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings?” The answer was cleverly hidden par. 16 that the F & D slave hasn’t yet been appointed over Jesus “belongings” and won’t be until Jesus 2nd coming during the Great Tribulation.
The Governing Body has always thought of themselves as already having been divinely appointed over all his “belongings” since 1919. That is why all of JW’s are under the more than 1,000 rules and regulations that the Governing Body has come up with over the years that we have to follow if we don’t want to be in divine disfavor with God and the Organization.
In the Oct. 1, 1981 Wat. Article “The Steward as He Faces Har-mageddon”, the Governing Body, i.e. Faithful and Discreet Slave, sees themselves as the Eliakim class and feels they are like a “father who provides for all those pictured by the “inhabitant of Jerusalem and the house of Judah.” Such a “dominion” as this Jehovah by Christ has given into the hand of the “steward” class the composite “steward” has faithfully and discreetly exercised this “dominion” till now.”
In the Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, the meaning of dominion is “absolute ownership”. The Watchtower used the word “dominion” over and over again in that article from 1981, referring to the Faithful and Discreet Slave (i.e.Governing Body), so it’s clear that the Governing Body felt it had been given “dominion” or “absolute authority” over all of Jesus’ “belongings” since 1919 and thus the more than 1,000 rules for us to follow. They feel they have been given this divine authority to watch over our souls to keep us clean, so to speak. The reason they felt they had this authority conferred to them was because of the “food” they were feeding the sheep from 1914-1919. That is why it’s so important to see what was being “fed” to his sheep during those years. If that claim is false, then the Governing Body has much blood guilt for all the pain they have caused by imposing those more than 1,000 rules on us.
By cleverly hiding the fact that Jesus hasn’t appointed the Faithful and Discreet slave over all his belongings yet and won’t until Jesus’ 2nd coming during the great tribulation, they were hiding the fact that they relinquished all their authority over us in that Watchtower.
If anybody reading this has friends and relatives still in the “truth”, have them explain what that means, that Jesus hasn’t appointed the F & D slave over all his belongings yet. I will bet you that it went right over their heads, just as it was meant to do.
You know what it is with the July 15, 2003 watchtower? They were *so* close! Read the box on page 24:
‘Notice that Jesus introduces the warning with the words “if ever.” One scholar says that in the Greek text, this passage “for all practical purposes is a hypothetical condition.” In effect, Jesus was saying: ‘If the faithful and discreet slave were ever to ….”
It’s all just hypothetical! Good slaves tend to their duties, the bad ones are lazy. Lesson learned :-D
I think that your site will be safe for some time to come. I posted a link to your challenge video on the JW forum on Topix.
So far, two JWs have responded on that thread. One flat-out refused to even look at the video challenge, and the other got all hung up on semantics. Initially, he interpreted your comment concerning the FDS as a form of apostolic succession as “divine lineage” and declared that JWs do NOT teach anything about “divine lineage” and, therefore, the entire challenge was bogus.
After explaining to him that the term was apostolic succession and what you meant by that, he then stated that he can’t “prove” that Noah exited the Ark, along with several other things and that he believed these things on faith, pretty much admitting that he couldn’t prove any of the points you listed in the challenge.
You can breathe easier, John…you’re safe for now. LOL
Thanks Gail. That’s precisely the sort of incoherent babbling I would expect! And I’m not in the least bit surprised they don’t know what apostolic succession is, even though it occupies an entire chapter in the very book they religiously carry round to people’s doors…
Ah…now for the latest update. When reminded that faith does NOT equal verifiable truth, the poster replied that, while he might not be capable of answering your challenge, he is sure that there are JWs who could scripturally explain those three points.
I, therefore, reminded him that quoting various scriptures and claiming that the JWs are the secondary or latter day fulfillment of those scriptures (because they say so) does not equal verifiable proof of what the JWs claim on those three issues.
Don’t they understand what “circular reasoning” means?
When my daughter was 2 years old, the C, Overseer put her on
The platform at the K,Hall and announced to the congregation,
“This little girl may never go to school in this system of things”
That little girl is now a 57 year old grandmother… Wake up
J,W’s, there’s no new system coming, at least 6 failed
predictions of it’s arrival. It’s a con mans bait. If it sounds
too good to be true the odds are that it is, that’s the warning
police often give out.
This is the only system, the one that’s here, this is a reality,
don’t waste it.. Your Governing Body has a huge stake in this
system, it is said to own more real estate in N,York than
anyone else and is in the process of building a multi million
dollar new headquarters. They are planning for the long term.
John,
I accept the Cedars Challenge!!!
I will just get my good friend The Doctor to take me back to New York in 1919 in his time and space machine, the TARDIS, it should be a doddle!,!!!!
Well, I just got back. Darn it! Christ was invisible and I forgot my invisible deity revealer spray!!!!!!
Sorry, I tried to prove you wrong but that invisibility is just impossible to penetrate!
I don’t think that you will be closing down JW Survey at any time!
On a less frivolous note, just how do we debunk the WTBTS’ outrageous claims, especially as they have covered themselves with Jesus being invisible?
We can use the passage in the Gospels that speaks about fruitage. A good tree produces good fruit, etc. I’m sorry, but it haven’t read a bible in years and I have forgotten all my memorised verses.
There’s also the one in Corinthians about love remaining.
If the WTBTS is indeed the sole representative of God and Jesus on this planet, then they should show in abundance the fruitage of the Holy Spirit, should it not?
Does the WTBTS exhibit the traits of the Holy Spirit?
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
GB succession FDS succession same horse different jockey.
Been doing a little more research on Christ’s appointing the Faithful and Discreet over all his “earthly belongings” and what it means. In the 2007 Watchtower April 1, pages 21-25, the slave is identified as a “steward” to paragraph 7 “In addition to providing nourshing spiritual food “at the proper time,” “the faithful steward” would be appointed over the entire body of Christ’s attendants and assigned to manage all Christ’s interests on earth, “all his belongings.” What would this entail? Paragraph 8 continues…”The slave’s responsibilities include the supervision of the material facilities used by Christ’s followers to carry out their Christian activities, such as the world headquarters and branch offices of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as their places of worship-Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls-throughout the world. More important, the slave also oversees spiritually upbuilding programs of Bible study at weekly meetings and periodic assemblies and conventions.”….Paragraph 9 “The steward’s responsibilities also include the supervision of the all important preaching “this good news of the kingdom” and making “disciples of people of all the nations.” This involves teaching people to observe all the things that Christ, the Head of the congregation, commands to be done during this time of the end. The preaching and teaching work has produced “a great crowd” of loyal companions of the anointed remnant. These “desirable things of all the nations” are undoubtedly to be counted among the precious “belongings” of Christ administered by the faithful slave.” Paragraph 12 page 24 “Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and it’s Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave’s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we “openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Paragraph 13 continues…”It is to this holy temple class that Jesus has entrusted his earthly belongings, which means that certain rights and responsibilities within the Christian congregation belong exclusively to this collective slave. For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and it’s Governing Body. ”
The Watchtower 04/ 3/1 pages 8-12 also identify the “great crowd” as Jesus earthly belongings that the “slave” was appointed over in 1919.
So, since the “Slave” hasn’t been appointed by Christ yet and won’t till the Great Tribulation, just who in the world is the Governing Body???? According to those articles, IF THEY HAD BEEN APPOINTED OVER ALL CHRIST’S BELONGINGS IN 1919, THAT WAS WHEN THEY WERE GIVEN AUTHORITY OVER ALL CHRIST’S BELONGINGS BUT THEY HAVEN’T BEEN APPOINTED YET, SO WHO ARE THEY?????
Whoa anonymous! I imagine the GB members slapping their knees laughing at you: “You’re actually trying to make sense of the stuff we write! HAHAHAHA! Even the best JWs don’t care about that!!” ;-)
Now seriously: the 2013 watchtower distinguishes between 1st and 2nd appointment. The first is about the food dispensing. (For some reason they always forget the word ‘junk’ there before ‘food’, but I digress). The second is the appointment over the belongings. The change is, as you’ve pointed out, the second appointment is to be in the future. But the first has already happened in 1919; that didn’t change (as far as I can see). So…. they can still write whatever they like and the JWs are to follow it, because they’re still the “channel” or “instrument” that Jesus uses to dispense food. You gotta love that paragraph 17, one of those instances where the answer to the question is not in the paragraph. But probably, the idea is that “all his belongings” include the belongings in heaven, so it doesn’t really make sense that the “slave” would have been appointed over those in 1919 already… that’s why they changed this detail.
Hopefully this helps.
Okay Gareth, I am going to tackle that Watchtower again. I am still trying to understand it. Am I just that dense???
Hi Gareth. I am looking at the first article (trying to understand it again) on page 3 in that July 15, 2013 article called “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” on page 8 paragraph 19 it says half way down “Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation. ”
On page 8, when it says in paragraph 18 “”so it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46,47 also applies to his future coming during the great tribulation. Indeed, a consideration of Jesus’ prophecy in it’s entirety makes it clear that each of these eight references to his coming applies to the future time of judgment during the great tribulation”
This is such an important point. If you listen to Peter Gregerson’s video Is the Watchtower God’s Only Organization he points out that those “three little words” “all his belongings”, is the greatest claim to authority that has ever been made in the world”. It’s that claim that the Watchtower says it has (had) is why they were able to come up with those 1,000 rules over us. So, if they admit in that Watchtower (which it did) that they haven’t yet been appointed over all Christ’s belongings on the earth, then they have no authority over us.
Page 23 paragraph 14 says “In Bible times, a trusted slave, or steward, was a house manager (Luke 12:42). The faithful and discreet slave is thus charged with the responsibility to manage the household of faith. That responsibility includes overseeing material assets, the preaching activity, assembly and convention programs, and the production of Bible literature for use in the field ministry and in personal and congregation study. The domestics depend on all the spiritual provisions dispensed by the composite slave.”
In the past, they used to say “all his belongings” to be the faithful “steward” in charge of the household but now they are saying that the faithful slave isn’t appointed over all Jesus’ belongings till after the great tribulation but is still in charge of the household of faith as a “steward”.
They used to say that “all his belongings” were all Jesus earthly interests. Now they just say that Jesus hasn’t appointed the faithful slave over all his belongings yet and it’s future but they don’t explain what it means but they have been appointed to give food to the domestics.
In paragraph 11 on page 18, they still want the power …”Notice that those congregations prospered as a result of their loyal cooperation with the governing body in Jerusalem.”
So, what I get from all these articles is that the “slave” is to dispense “food to the domestics” and that’s all. If when Jesus comes at the great tribulation and finds that the slave is feeding the proper food, then he will appoint them over all his belongings but it won’t happen till they are in heaven when they are given authority over heaven and earth.
Where to they get the authority to do anything except feed the sheep now? The authority they gave themselves is to oversee the household, calling themselves a slave/steward/boss/governing body. They give the example of a “steward” as the same as a slave, giving the “slave” the authority over the household. Are they the slave or the boss? We just have to take their word for it that in Bible times, the slave was the boss over the household, don’t we?
I will not let the Governing Body laugh at me. I am determined to make sense out of that article if it makes my brain explode!!!