As I write this article, 2017 is drawing to a close, having witnessed its own fair share of major changes within the Watchtower organization – so much so that the team here at JWsurvey are struggling to keep pace!
Over the past few months, we have set aside time to digest the survey results of the 2016 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses – and the time has now come to share these results with you, our readers!
First, though, it would be worthwhile to look back on events of 2016 by way of understanding the context. 2016 was, for example, a year in which we heard the ever-growing collective voice of those who join in raising awareness of unsatisfactory policies that leave children vulnerable to sexual abuse.
The year before, 2015, we watched the Australian Royal Commission hearings (into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse) and it has since become increasingly clear that Watchtower has no intention of remedying the failings that were brought to light – at least not in the near future.
As noted by JWsurvey’s Assistant Editor, John Redwood, in November 2016 the Commission’s findings were released, highlighting desperate flaws. “The Royal Commission found children are not adequately protected from the risk of child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness organization and does not believe the organization responds adequately to allegations of child sexual abuse.”
A further in-depth examination took place in March 2017 and a report was subsequently released. Unfortunately, Watchtower has still failed to address flaws in their policies with regard to child sex abuse and reporting to authorities, meaning that children within their congregations and the wider community are not being protected as they should be. All in all, their policies continue to be woefully inadequate.
Across the globe, especially in the US and UK, there were many documented cases of abuse in 2016. You can read John Redwood’s detailed “Part One” summary of 2016 here.
Other legal action and court cases are ongoing, and we are doing our best to keep track of developments. Watchtower has repeatedly shown their disregard for the law of the land using unethical legal manoeuvrings to avoid subpoenas and prosecution for their actions. This systematic obstruction of justice surely cannot be explained away or swept under the rug forever.
As information on the internet and in the media becomes increasingly accessible, both sides to these stories are being exposed along with the darker side of the Watchtower organization. The real “truth” can no longer be silenced with assertions that those working to reveal what is happening are “spreading apostate-driven lies.”
Further to the extensive child abuse scandal gaining media attention, Watchtower’s deadly blood policy also came to the fore. It has resulted in many deaths among Jehovah’s Witnesses over the decades, including some high profile cases of preventable and premature deaths of children and birthing mothers. Such a senseless loss of precious life proves that this is not simply the case of a benign religion, but potentially an extremely dangerous and life-threatening cult.
Furthermore, the summer convention attended by millions of witnesses globally in 2016 was dubbed the “Worst Convention Ever” by Lloyd Evans in a series of YouTube videos reviewing the convention material. The convention, titled “Remain Loyal to Jehovah,” equated loyalty to God with loyalty to Watchtower in all its teachings and requirements no matter how inhumane.
As if enough families and friendships have not already been torn apart, there was a video series effectively calling for more of the same. It featured a couple completely shunning a young family member simply because she had a relationship with someone outside of the organization. The video even went so far as as to depict her mother completely ignoring calls from her, and the family not sitting with her at congregation meetings.
As a former member who has not been formally disfellowshipped, I still feel the pain of losing friends due to my non-attendance at meetings and no longer believing the same doctrine as those with whom I grew up. The captive nature of the organization is truly one of the marks of a destructive cult, and there is a daily struggle to come to terms with the pain of people you care about cutting you out of their lives.
Highly emotive videos such as those shown at recent conventions (including this year’s “Don’t Give Up!” convention) seek to get to the core of a person, ensuring they “remain loyal” to the Governing Body’s ever-changing policies. One of the 2016 videos showed a group of witnesses hiding in a bunker as the “Great Tribulation” begins, proving that – for the Watchtower organization – fear is still one of the most effective ways to keep followers obedient and under their control.
From the end of 2015 and through 2016 we have also seen the systematic reduction of the number of bethelites and special pioneers working for Watchtower. After years of commitment to the organization, many have lost their way of life as part of the organization’s downsizing initiative. To cut costs and maximise assets, the Governing Body has sold the last of Watchtower’s lucrative Brooklyn property portfolio, worth well over a billion dollars, and relocated to their new luxurious lakeside compound at Warwick seemingly with little thought to those kicked to the curb after years of service.
While keeping an eye on the constant changes at Watchtower, the JWsurvey team is also mindful of honoring the very reason why this website was founded back in 2011 – to give a voice to the “silent majority” of current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who have been denied a voice by an indifferent Watchtower leadership.
Mindful of the need to reflect new developments, we are hoping to introduce subtle changes to the survey in the years ahead, asking the questions that our readers would like us to ask, as well as gauging the reaction to current news and changes within the Jehovah’s Witness movement. We will soon be setting up a survey to gather such suggestions for next year’s Global Survey, concerning which I will keep you all updated. Alternatively, you can follow us on Twitter (at @jwsurveyorg) and tweet your suggestions to us.
So, without further ado, please see below a downloadable infographic with some stand-out statistics, plus some of the key findings and the full downloadable PDF survey results…
4,773 total respondents
- The fact that young people are not to pursue higher education was the least popular Watchtower teaching
- 58% say they are agnostic/atheist/have no belief, 40% religious
- 89% believe that JWs have a problem with child abuse
- 266 claim to be victims of child sex abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses
- 35% claim to be aware of child sex abuse where they knew the victim personally
- 53% suffered some bullying at school due to being a Witness
- 52% believe they have experienced financial disadvantages due to not pursuing higher education, as per Watchtower’s teachings
- 76% have heard of a Jehovah’s Witness committing or attempting suicide
- 46% suffer from depression
- 31% say they have contemplated or attempted suicide as a result of being a part of the Jehovah’s Witness organization (1,113 individuals)
- 19% have self-harmed as a Jehovah’s Witness
- 73% have never helped someone to baptism
- 78% are against tax-exempt/charitable status for the Watchtower organization
- 456 individuals say they donate to Watchtower (almost half of which said “every now and then”)
- 54% believe the organization is in financial difficulty
- 52% consider themselves apostates
- 22% personally knew of someone who has died as a result of refusing a blood transfusion
- 165 individuals would let their child die refusing blood
- 74% of those who have attended a Judicial Committee meeting feel that they were not dealt with in a fair and reasonable manner
- 90% of ex-JWs are happier for leaving the organization
- 72% of those who are no longer a part of the Watchtower organization have been successful in rebuilding their circle of friends/family
- 93% of disfellowshipped ex-JWs would not seek reinstatement
- 77% are being shunned
- 95% of respondents would not recommend anyone to become a Jehovah’s Witness
- 63% believe that the Governing Body know what they are doing and should be held accountable for their actions
- 55% would like to see the Watchtower society drastically change its damaging policies
826 active Jehovah’s Witness respondents
- 76% of active respondents were male
- Only 20% became JWs after being preached to
- 23% of active respondents are regular pioneers
- 3 special pioneers and 2 missionaries participated
- 40% (118) claimed to be ministerial servants
- 10 individuals claimed to be bethelites
- 7% claimed to have been reinstated just to have contact with family
- 47% said they would secretly accept blood, with a further 7% saying they would openly accept blood
- 11% would let their children die for want of a blood transfusion (21% not sure)
- 20% knew of a death due to refusing blood
- 65% said they would remove the prohibition on blood
- 24 individuals who took part claimed to be of the anointed
- 16% believe JWs are God’s spirit-directed organization (a further 27% were not sure)
- Only 9% believe that elders are appointed by holy spirit
- 62% said that they have never brought someone to baptism
- Only 8% believe you are free to express a difference of opinion
- 53% voted for Governing Body member Anthony Morris III as the most controversial
- Only 24% believe JWs should be a tax exempt and considered a charity
- 54% say that they don’t donate to the Watchtower organization
- 81% of those who do donate say they are not comfortable with donations being used to pay for sex abuse cases
- 55% believe the organization is in financial difficulty
- 67% are not comfortable with all non-JWs being murdered at Armageddon (3.51% were comfortable with this idea and 12% don’t think this is what JWs teach)
- 65% object to all forms of shunning
- 30% consider themselves apostate
- 24% would remain JWs even if their beliefs were disproven
- 17 individuals would take a pill if instructed to do so by Watchtower
- 39% claim to suffer from depression
- 27% have attempted or contemplated suicide
- 13% have self-harmed
- 42% have been bullied at school for their beliefs
- 55% have attended college or university
- 80% believe JWs have a problem with child abuse
- 22 claimed to be victims of child abuse within JWs
- 48% consider themselves to be ‘believing’ JWs
- 9% agree with ALL Watchtower teachings and practices
If you would like to download the results in PDF form, you can do so here.
And I hope you will enjoy the following video in which I join Lloyd Evans in discussing these results on his John Cedars channel…
Finally, I would like to thank all of you who voted in 2016 for your support. And please don’t forget to share in taking the 2017 Global Survey so that as many voices as possible can be heard!
104 thoughts on “Results of the 2016 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses”
The Times They Are a Changin’ – Bob Dylan
Come gather ’round People
Wherever You roam
And admit that the waters
Around You have grown
And accept it that soon
You’ll be drenched to the bone
lf Your time to you is worth savin’
THEN YOU BETTER START SWIMMIN’
Or You’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin’
COME WRITERS AND CRITICS
WHO PROPHESIZE WITH YOUR PEN
AND KEEP YOUR EYES WIDE
THE CHANCE WON’T COME AGAIN
And Don’t speak too soon
For the Wheel’s still in spin
And there’s no telling who
That it’s namin’
For the Loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin’
please read the following verses folks….and,
Hugs to all WT victims
For the loser now
Hi Nova, we may know each other. I know only one Nova from the burg.
Staggering results, glad i had my say
I watched the video and found it very informative. I am sorry but I didn’t take part in the 2016 survey, but I will do the 2017. I was born and raised as a JW and it was 2014 when I left After 31 years.
I was pondering though, when you had some reluctantly too call yourself an apostate, ( i have a lot of hesitancy) is to regard the The JW organisation as the one true church, as fact. Going by the JW definition of an apostate, Somebody who takes an active stand against Jah or his organisation, but since it isn’t, your just simply a Critic of a Man made Organisation based out of New York. It almost seems to me to call yourself an apostate is almost buying into the JW teachings still. Or maybe I am just afraid of using that word lol as was mentioned.
My apologies. I shouldn’t do this on my phone…2nd Paragraph should read when you have some Reluctantcy to call yourself an apostate
Are you a relative of a CO in Ireland?
As far as i know, No lol. My dad is Peter James Watt and he would be the only likely candidate to be a CO. Although i would not know because we do not communicate anymore (shunning)
I knew a CO named Watt, I met him in Tralee on a few occasions. I am ex jw for a long time and I am shunned by family.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. To be called an apostate is to acknowledge
their name calling, which to a witness it’s worse than being called anything else. They are AFRAID of talking to an apostate. As you well said, an apostate is one who has left the faith. But which faith? They are just a money hungry corporation!
THEY are apostates, they left the faith to become JWs
Seems to be a reluctance amongst active JW’s to donate to the organisation. Is this an indicator of just how many are physically in but mentally out, so to speak?
Probably because they are poor. They are taught NOT to go to college, not to pursue a career. So they probably don’t have enough money to live on, let alone contribute.
Shunning is not limited to disfellowshiped individuals or towards those who have cooled off. Those of us active Witnesses (I guess we are active in body, if not in mind) who are aware of the Conti and ‘Amelia’ child sex abuse cases where Watchtower lost, as well as aware of the UN affiliation, and who dare to speak of these to fellow Witnesses, find ourselves being shunned by our superfine fellow members. One elder in the congregation I am in now says that the UN membership is a lie being spread by apostates. A lawyer in the congregation says that the videos on Youtube of Geoffrey Jackson at the Australian Royal Commission are actually fake; the Geoffrey Jackson in the videos is an imposter.
Recently I had the chance to ask a switched on CO about why are Witnesses shunning one another, and why can’t these guys handle reality. He explained that these guys have so much stress in their lives, the one thing they can count on is the Organization. Thus, they will defend the organization no matter what, for their own sanity. They don’t want to, in fact, can’t, face reality, because if the organization is somehow at fault, their world comes tumbling down. So they have to live in their own version of reality (my friends and I call it LaLa Land) by ignoring what is really happening. This is one reason why they shun us Witnesses who are aware of reality and who want everyone else to know.
Another reason the CO gave is because as our (the org’s) predictions haven’t come true (remember the big kingdom halls they built with seating for 200 people in the Western countries, ready for the big influx of people rushing into our organization) the brothers and sisters have become more paranoid toward any dissenters.
This CO could not understand why the Governing Body is not handling the child sex abuse problem in a better way. Why the conspirasy of silence (ie Australian Royal Commission)? He says that it has never been a benefit for any organization to keep things like this a secret; in the end it can only hurt the organization.
I think what we are seeing is the descent of an organization. As it is falling, the members start attacking their own, causing an even faster fall. I was spoken to by the elders last month for my answers, where I say things they consider negative. I have been gagged- I can only give positive answers from now on. So we only hear wonderful LaLa Land answers at the hall, no one is able to bring out reality because reality is viewed as being negative.
When an organization not only ignores reality, but is also abusive, as our organization is, how can it survive? No wonder one of the brothers in the congregation punched an elder several times in the kingdom hall just before the meeting started last meeting… the sheep are fighting back.
I have just heard that the yearly report will no longer be found in the Yearbook anymore. Is this not another act of desperation? Just when the worldwide decreases are about to start, the GB in its wisdom changes the arrangement for the annual year report. To keep them hidden, no doubt.
Ricardo, I am not surprised by the news of no annual yearbook report. It was one of the things my jw family loved so much. All the increase. But, the sheep are leaving, fighting back.(that’s a good one), And, for years the number of those claiming to be anointed grew. Hummmmm, I’d say that’ weird. I quit this religion some 4 years ago. I am shunned. I used the yearly report to show this organization is on its decline. The org has to know this is what we do. Look at the numbers. Now, no numbers.I wonder if they will publish the info in a WT. study article?
@Peggy, apparently the annual report will be put on jw.org somewhere. I don’t like looking at that site. (We can see what it has done to Jado. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, skip through some of the articles in jwsurvey and look for Jado’s comments.)
The last yearbook was the 2017 one. The organization has gone from being a publishing company to being a property company. The GB is building kingdom halls like crazy while the publisher numbers are large enough to give adequate donations, and while there is enough free labour. Once the publisher numbers collapse, the GB will sell the halls and make incredible profit off the transactions.
Wow Ricardo! I’ve never really considered what will happen should the organisation collapse. All the money the org has accumulated from the sale of properties and from publisher donations is going to be a fabulous pension pot!! Not a penny of it will find its way back to the rank and file that made it all possible. Disgusted that I once bought into all their bs!
@ Ricardo Peggy and Mama Saurus;
The end of this dystopian organization is nigh. Numbers don’t lie, people do. It is not like the stock market making needed adjustments to bring down inflated future speculations and expectations. Like the pyramid schemes of ‘Amway’ and other companies of like venue it has reached its saturation point. Those that are in this Orwellian paradise are in and those in the world, that have heard this nonsense, are definitely not interested and nothing anyone will do or say will change this fact.
The seven Führer’s of the WTBTS are in their bunker hoping that Jesus, Jehovah or Armageddon will come and get them out of their predicament that they have placed themselves in. No ‘New Light’ (Wunderwaffe) will be forthcoming to deliver these delusional cheats and liars.
No growth (except in memorial partakers), child abuse cases with no end in sight, U.N. involvement for over a decade, no contributions coming in as the Society chose to limit adherents educational opportunities thus causing brothers to choose between feeding their families or making contributions, Kingdom Halls being sold as ‘clap’ clinics, shelters, soup kitchens, etc. with brothers having to travel great distances to meet.
There is no place in an modern world for this organization but watch its downward spiral into the abyss of historic oblivion as most of the Adventist Millerite movement has already taken. The Jehovah’s Witnesses that are shown that the Organization is corrupt and lies through its teeth are being intellectually dishonest with nobody but themselves as this recent survey shows. These idiots that put their faith in the promises of men are not to be hated but pitied. So I say let them die off, one idiot at a time, with the only prancing panda paradise earth seen by them as they gasp their last breath is the inside of their eye balls. Like the Sergei video they will die disappointed, despondent, discouraged, disillusioned, disgruntled, and angry at lost opportunities wasted on a man-made cult based on a supposition. Namely, “let us suppose Adam and Eve did not sin in Eden”.
Some ask why don’t these men see what’s going on and do the right thing? Maybe they are trying to have persecution come on the organization by the world’s governments and start the Great Tribulation on their own. Is this in the back of their delusional minds? God forbid; it will not work out for them but hasten their demise.
Let’s add this to our list of predictions for the WTBTS, shall we?
I will make book (bet) that soon, say within the next decade or so, circuit conventions will be done away with altogether and Assembly Halls will be the next properties sold for profit! The brothers can meet at their own halls and have the convention broadcast to them by closed circuit T.V. Won’t that be terrific! It would be touted as another loving provision by the Faithful and Discrete Slave! No long trips, no Assembly Halls to maintain, no hotels and other expenses. Several days of fellowship at your local Kingdom Hall.
Now who would be the wiser? The elders? The publishers? Hardly.
Thank goodness we have this forum to express our thoughts and receive information on this dangerous, disingenuous, soul-sucking Cult.
@Big B, it is interesting to compare the situation Watchtower finds itself in, with that of the Seventh Day Adventists. At the moment the SDA’s are having some of the fastest growth they have ever experienced. They didn’t get whacked during the Australian Royal Commission- it seems they have less child abuse. Probably because they don’t have a faulty judicial system like the Witnesses have where child abusers remain secret. The SDA’s also didn’t get banned in Russia. They don’t have a strict disfellowshiping system where extreme shunning is carried out. And they have the ability to safely leave their religion if they wish, without losing their family and friends through shunning. No doubt they have their problems too. But their system seems to be getting good results.
The GB’s ability to kick own goals, to shoot themselves in the foot, is quite outstanding. The more the GB try to stop the brothers leaving, the more who seem to be leaving. The way the elders comport themselves is sickening, and is making the worship of Jehovah into a farce. I wish to be around to watch when they realize the ship is going down, and that the joke is on them.
@Big B. , I love your way with words! I could not have put it better. I told my kids some years ago that a thinking person will look at these changes to how jw’s meet, the down sizing of everything printed,and the property ownership and see the organization has money trouble since membership is going down. I will take your bet, as I think it will be right on in like 10 years. People today are not interested in this, and members are leaving. BTW, my 92 year old faithful jw father died last month. I dreaded the meet up w/ my 2 jw siblings. The will was read to us after the memorial service at the hall. My dad gave a sizable donation to the local hall, and another to WT. My brother did that immediately. I, on the other hand wait my inheritance. After all is done and over then I’ll be free of it all.
Boy that was a bold prediction!
I think if one on the GB says anything to fix things, one of the hardliners will reply:”your not going Ray Franz” on us, are you?” That, effectively, is end of discussion. So, in stead of loosing up on df/da, 1914/19 and education, they are pushing “the end” with more and more imaginative reasoning. Namely, overlapping generations. And increasingly require unquestionable loyalty from R&F and their lieutenants.
@Ricardo, I hate looking at that site, too. But, may just for info on that report. And, I do know what you refer to in regard to Jado. lol. I think we shall soon see the sales, as people do not have the donations.
According to a book the shunning of active JWs in good standing started way back at the start of the 20th century. Try to find the book I Was A Watchtower Slave, written by an ex-zone overseer, ex-Bethelite (in Germany and the USA), and ex-pioneer. The book’s author claims the “Society” muscled control from all local elders who were pastoring in what were essentially independent churches that were using the WT to teach from by sending in Bethel reps designated as “company servants,” bestowing authority on these company servants, and reducing the authority of the previous church elders, and finally shunning any previous elder inside the church that was perceived as uncooperative. The author claims the shunning included removing previous elders from any responsible positions.
If that author’s book was correct then it provides an explanation for one reason this type of mistreatment by elders is so wide spread and so apparent to abused Witnesses over such a lengthy time span. The WT tactic included making their victims know they were being marginalized inside their churches. If it really started as a power play from Bethel in 1919 Germany and during the1920s or 30s in the USA, as the author claims, then training future generations of JW authority figures to use that tactic would seem a natural development. In the book the author claimed the abusive treatment was effective in every case. He wrote it would usually cause its victims to become inactive or leave their churches.
That kind of behavior we should expect from an apostate religion, a kind of behavior usually denied by all elders except those close friends who are not totally corrupted themselves and so they’re repulsed by it. Most of the elders not so corrupted so as to participate in this behavior are too morally weak to fight against it, and most elders are just too cowardly to take a stand in any important way against what they abhor when it means they might stand out themselves as targets.
Great comment Messenger!
@Messenger, the group of heretics enjoyed me reading out your post. Thanks for the background information.
The heretics have decided to take on a name: The Underlapping Generation. Does it sound good?
Interesting to me are the 17 Witnesses out of 826 who would take a pill if instructed to by the GB. Extrapolate those figures out and there are literally tens of thousands of needy/gullible fools who’ll willing work tirelessly to support a self serving cult and who wouldn’t think twice about following the GB into the jungles of Guyana for a Jonestown re-enactment. This cult could easily condense down and survive with it’s hard core of ill-adjusted people.
Another interesting point is the amount of people who would stay even if everything was proven to be false – human nature at play and not unique to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s their life and to some, it would be like asking someone to suddenly change their culture. That would take years.
Just talked with my brother, who tells me that the Watchtower and Awake! publications will be once again downsized to one (1) printing every three (3) months and a discontinuing of the publication of the Yearbook altogether! Wow, really?
If we are so close to the end, as the Governing Body intimates, then that begs the question; shouldn’t the publications be printed more rather than less; shouldn’t there be a growth in publishers and interested ones that the Kingdom Halls would burst at the seams? But this is not the case at all is it? Reality shows that the Halls are being sold, congregations are being combined because the growth isn’t there, period. I also understand the Yearbook being discontinued, don’t want the friends to examine the loss of growth to carefully do we?
Yes, without a doubt, something is definitely amiss in Jehovah Land. I wonder what it could be? Maybe the friends aren’t doing enough, yeah that’s it!
“Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.” – Watchtower, November 1, 1922, p. 337.
J.F.(the Judge) Rutherford at Cedar Point, Ohio, USA.
Agree totally Big B!
An older colleague at work once told me that getting old is not the problem, it is remaining relevant.
This organisation is old but has no relevance – the message is toothless, confusing and patronizing, it cannot be backed up by facts or fulfilled predictions.
It has done nothing for mankind except the creation of a once profitable publishing and property empire that is struggling to keep up with the times. Scare tactics, shunning, mind control have no relevance in the age of information.
The latest venture into televangelism is too little too late, others have being doing this for decades with very little success.
Being spoken to like a child by a bunch of old males in the US insults most people is cringe-worthy at best and is not a sustainable business model.
On the other hand, Love is always relevant and is a natural and inherent trait of all humans.
It drives and respects your conscience and life decisions, brings happiness, grows people, family and communities.
It happens and has happened since the start of mankind naturally without management, structure, rules, control, reporting of faith by works or blackmail (shunning).
Folks – you don’t need this organisation!
@Big B. Agree with you Big B. The WT can cook the books anyway they want to. My father used to say to me “Figures don’t lie, but liars figure” that is WT has been doing for years. Now w no Yearbook to show decreases they will Spin falsehoods in another direction. 1922 is 100 years ago almost and the so called advertising of the Kingdom has changed many times since then.When Rutherford said that JW’s were still teaching that 1874 the Kingdom was set up. 1914teaching did not come
for several more years.
Absolutely correct H.C.; “Liars figure”. Now watch the lies, falsehoods, and whitewashes come on like a tsunami. Someone must be (and will be) blamed for the decrease in publishers and baptismal candidates. Will the so called ‘faithful and discrete slave’ fall on their swords (resign) and take the blame or will they (more than likely) blame the friends and urge greater field ministry followed by appreciable giving of contributions?
My brother and I sat down to our weekly luncheon yesterday and discussed the many changes that have been implemented since we were youngsters during the Nathan Knorr presidency (1943-1976).
We figured that changes of “NEW LIGHT” could be counted, on average, about every 20 years or so. This is a direct contradiction to their founders teaching on this very subject which is more pertinent today than ever before.
Russell eloquently wrote the following truism that:
“If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now;… But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. “New Light” never extinguishes older “light” but adds to it…” Zion’s Watch Tower 1881 Feb pp.3,188
So, its not NEW LIGHT as it contradicts or replaces previous teachings but it is NEW DOCTRINE. Once a circuit overseer came for his visit to explain some ‘new light’. I remember him saying, “that was the TRUTH then. However, this (New Light) is the TRUTH now!” Does or can Truth ever change? Absolutely not; but LIES do!
How anyone can believe that Jehovah chose this organization over all others back in 1919 is unbelievable to me. How anyone can believe that this is God’s earthly organization is also unbelievable to me. I’ve read that a “Tree grows in Brooklyn” but did/does the Shekinah Glory glow over Brooklyn/Wallkill?
Which begs the question are the Witnesses leaving WATCHTOWER and going over to the Seventh Day Adventist movement? I don’t think that’s the case as they (SDA) uphold the Sabbath and all of the Mosaic Law dietary restrictions, etc.
Since my family and I faded over three years ago we have had no affiliation with any religious organization, period. After all, we just escaped one trap so why would we shackle ourselves to another Adventist cult or any other soul sucking, money grubbing, religion Christian or other? So my answer (guess) to the above question about leaving for another religion (SDA) is probably “NO”. Witnesses are just leaving the WATCHTOWER and staying at home; as well they should.
A parting thought to all who are searching for freedom from WATCHTOWER tyranny remember this: True Christian Freedom is worth everything. It is far better to make your own choices with your own conscience ‘dying on your feet’ than following the misguided council of others and slavishly ‘live on your knees’.
Funny you mention 1919 again. I have a JW friend who is American brother but he married a Sister from Stockholm and lives in Sweden.He knows where I stand and we email each other. He claimed to me today that in 1919 Jesus chose the WT to be the true religion etcc. Same story we always hear. So in a nice way I challenged him to show me some kind of proof etc or ONE prophecy the JW’s made that came true since then? I pointed out many numerous HUGE mistakes the WT had made over the years and there are hundreds of them and they were all 100%sure it was the truth! He could not answer nor did he try. He tried to tell me how the JW’s are still growing and how these are the last day and branches are only closing bc of technology etc.
So after I told him that is not true and they are only growing bc they baptize their young children and convert 3rd world people now that is where any so called growth is coming. The ne tried to say that the “LOVE” they have World wide shows they are the truth? So I went into his own personal experience of about 15 years ago when he was DF’d and his entire life fell aprt and the JW’s treated him like he was evil and spit on him etc. Even his Own child and wife treated him likme that. He had helped so many people and JW’s over the years and CO and DO’s an d was a very generous donator to the WT and bc of 1 issue they DF’d him just like that and he was cast out and spit on by the WT and JW’s.
So I said is that Love? And this happens every day of the year many times. I said the Love they have is VERY Conditional and only based on loyalty to an organization.Plus he told me back then that the JW’s would become like any other religion soon. He could not answer so I let it go. Not worth arguing about but I made the point.
I think he had awakened a few years ago but he got scared of nobody talking w him and losing his friends etc and his social life. Hard to start over after many year s in the Org.
Yeah, I was at the annual meeting (dialed in).New Light? The meeting began with ‘we sanctify Jehovah’s name and vindicate his sover. and now we vind his sov and name.Woohoo – what a revelation. Just last week a sister was corrected in public at the WT by the WT conductor as she said ‘vind his name’ which was wrong but now is right. A new truth doesn’t contradict an existing truth ~ new light. A contradiction is not new light.
The WT conductor made a comment about being baptized in ’73 and when the end didn’t come in ’75 …
I approached him afterwards and played dumb and asked what he meant by his comment. I said GB never admitted to this and in print (1969 Awake) pointed the finger at everyone else as being too eager, etc … Let’s just say he felt uncomfortable with the conversation so I let him off nicely.
Anyways, let’s see how all this plays out. For me, I don’t do mid week anymore and skip many Sundays and maybe 1-3 hours per month. Fading and haven’t donated anything in 10 years. Requested to be removed from the school and I’m sure it’s just time before they remove me from sound, stage. mics, etc …
This change in printed WT/Awake is supposed to almost force return visits to be turned into studies. Don’t waste time on those who aren’t studying and just a magazine route. Yeah, Tony’s talk.
I pray each morning before breakfast asking Jehovah to fix the problems
@Ron, I am in a similar situation to yourself. However, I go to the meetings to see what benefit I can get out of the meeting for Christians rather than Witnesses. I see it as being more important to be a Christian than a Witness. My son and I are quite regular to the meetings, regularly comment (although I have been told to make my comments positive, so I disguise the negative within the comment). We preach regularly, though I only use my Bible cos I don’t want to help anyone else suffer in this organization the way I have. I pray every day also. But I don’t pray for Jehovah to fix the problems. I pray that the organization may go bankrupt and no longer exist. Maybe I’m praying for the wrong thing, but the abuse must stop, be it sexual abuse, mental or emotional abuse. The only way this will stop is when Watchtower goes bankrupt, because we just don’t have the elders with the guts to stand up and say to the other elders, “Be Christians.”
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. The elders and Governing Body have done nothing to stop the abuse that has become a culture carried out by the elders in this organization. Evil has flourished. So let the org collapse. The elders and GB are a hindrance in our worship of Jehovah.
I want to be around when the elders start to realize that the ship is sinking. I want to see their faces. I want to be around to tell them what mongrels they are.
Thanks for the response and I understand (and agree) completely. Very sad situation all around. I hear comments from public talks that make me shake my head and now I will approach the speaker to ask what he means but do it in a way that shows respect and makes him think. I have heard some day ‘that happened years ago’ and I respond ‘that doesn’t mean anything and doesn’t change things. Any scripture can be used to push a point and that’s not the purpose of being a better Christian. I used the following example without any response from elders. You will like this one.
No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood. For the life of every sort of flesh is its blood, because the life is in it
Hence. surrender life or give blood as there is no great love than this.
We can take fractions of blood but not whole blood but no matter how you slice the apple, it is still an apple. Well, technically Jehovah, I didn’t eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge – I just nibbled at it a bit.
I see so many elders (good one’s) giving so much and running themselves ragged and neglecting many other things but yet the load is supposed to be light.
See, all can justify just about anything with any scripture.
Picking and choosing isn’t how true Christians live or conduct themselves.
Anyways, enough from me :)
@Ricardo. Hi Ricardo
I have read your comments off and on over last few years. I know you attend meetings but don’t believe the WT Spin etc. I get it. However you said you go door to door but only w the bible bc you don’t want anyone else to suffer like you have and others from the WT teachings and other things correct?
Yet, you say you attend regularly with your son? Isn’t that doing the same thing by bringing your son to the meetings? At those meetings he is hearing the propaganda that the WT spills out on a regular basis.
What if your son decides to eat it up and become a true /blue JW bc young minds are easily impressed. So if you really don’t believe it why bring him to those indoctrination classes? Also do you bring your son door-door with you? Do you work by yourself in field ministry and how do you get away w only the bible bc as we know the WT wants us to peddle their ideas and publications.
@HolyCannoli, I sit next to my son at the meetings and point out the rot. He seems to understand the difference between being a Christian and being a Witness. We go preaching together or with other rebels- we never see the elders much. I don’t know how it is where you live, but in Australia the elders don’t join the preaching much. After 40 minutes they must go off. In Asia where I am now our preaching group leader is an Australian elder who is too tired after the Sunday meeting to come out. I haven’t worked with an elder in field service for about 3 years.
I don’t worry that my son will become a true believer. He really dislikes elders because they are the only people who scold me in front of him. They have done that on half a dozen occasions. He keeps wanting me to punch them in the head.
I hope that teaching my son TTATT will be a help to him.
@ Ron Curry;
You are definitely on the right track “asking Jehovah to fix the problems”. Your prayers are being answered as He is fixing the problems right now even as I write this. God is using the governments to destroy this apostate, money grubbing, Evil Slave class, daring to pose as His earthly representative.
With the revealing of a decade of U.N. involvement by the investigative Guardian newspaper, the Watchtower organization waited until the day of the release of the story before tendering their resignation from that body. Like a child caught with their hand in the cookie jar they practically flew there!
Where Ron (other than the book of Revelation) do you find Babylon the Great? Is she not the harlot of false religion that rides the U. N. “scarlet colored wild beast” ? At least that’s been the Watchtowers interpretation of the characters of Revelation since about 1942 which was further set in stone by the 1963 publication “Babylon the Great has fallen, Gods Kingdom Rules!”
Can you see that the Watchtower has hypocritically joined the very organization that they accused Christendom of supporting? Did you know this, more importantly do your elders know, how about your circuit overseer? If this was so innocent why haven’t the friends been told? This is in fact old news, almost a decade ago, yet the friends still don’t know, why? Because if they have the right heart condition they would follow the angel in mid-heavens admonition and leave that’s why the Society is killing this story with silence and time. If they are leaving now without this U.N. information can you imagine the fallout if the friends ever found out?
Yes Ron, Jehovah is fixing this problem so your prayers are being answered. God is abandoning this counterfeit so called ‘earthly organization’ which has proven to be the real evil slave class. He is using the governments to do it. They will be long gone before the rest of Babylon the Great wait and see!
I also am fading after 50 years in.i do about 3 to 4 hours a month mainly on route call that me and my disabled wife have had for years. When public mags end my personal ministry to my public will end as well.
@ John freeman;
Yes, I can see your point. All this time wasted and for what, to what end? The ministry today is not about a separation work or a warning of the impending doom of Armageddon. This won’t happen until the “rapture” (New Light) of the remaining ones whisked off to heavenly glory, according to the Watchtower study article of July 15, 2013 (see the accompanying timeline).
Now ask yourself if these events are going to happen say in a hundred years, (and that is being very, very, generous) then the probability of the surviving “great crowd” being alive today, in 2017, is about nil. In other words the great crowd that survives Armageddon isn’t born yet!
So other than making more Watchtower dupes there is absolutely no reason to be knocking on doors with any message of impending doom as no one living today will be alive to see the end of this system.
This is, of course, if the prophecies and interpretation of the Watchtower can be counted on as being correct, which they’ve not been up to now. If I owned a race horse that won as many races as the Watchtower has been correct I would put that beast out to pasture.
Anyone who has put in this much voluntary work, as you have, for absolutely no enumeration has no reason for shame or guilt. Instead rejoice and be glad that you’ve finished with this time banditry calling itself ‘Gods earthly organization’!
Ah! Big B,
You haven’t heard the twist on that. They are saying here, that is indicative of the end being so close, that’s why everything is being scaled back, to prepare for what is about to begin. That the JWs have all the info they need, there is no need for anything else. To many, they say it makes perfect sense!! There is no way to wake up people who would rather sleep. So I say, let them sleep if that’s what they prefer.
If they are “downsizing” due to the end being near, what about the new branches in the USA and the UK?
If witnesses don’t need any more info, hence not printing anymore, then why keep telling them to donate more and more?
Is the WT saving money for what is about to come?
I would like to ask this questions to those who gave this explanations.
@ Shibboleth & Diane;
Ditto, especially since those monies will be worthless as they are to be thrown out in the street at the time of the end.
Maybe these funds are providing a parachute for the Governing Body’s retirement fund in an offshore account?
Pretty sure the GB will have all their ‘paradise papers’ secure in an offshore account.
Those 17 are from the ones who dared to look at this website. How many more JWs are there who wouldn’t look at websites other than JW.org and would swallow a box of pills if asked by their superiors (sorry, I meant “fellow workers”)
extrapolate those figures out, Diane and it comes to over 164,000 from 8 million people. Even by cutting that figure in half will give enough fools who’ll do whatever the GB wants them to, Fifteen percent of your wages for Gods work?….not a problem. “We are the true followers, the only ones to know the truth. We are the only ones who will survive. Give Give Give and be thankful for the free gift of life we give you” It’ll work.
@outandabout.Those 17 that said they would take a pill if WT told them to. We don’t know if those were truly JW’s or not bc anybody can take the survey and claim they are JW’s right? although I personally believe there are many JWs who would do that.I have faded over 20 years ago and never DF’d and former elder for 12 years and I still see and speak w JW’s on a semi regular occurrence do to family members and a few friends in the JW’s I have. I have a relative that is so adamant and argumentive about the JW’s being right on everything that this person for sure would take a pill.
If we think about it for a moment that a JW gave there entire life, money, hours, mindset and heart to an organization that controlled their life and told them what to eat, drink, wear,
who to have for friends, what to think etc, and then realize you have been hood winked all your life and the entire belief is wrong is chilling when you “AWAKEN”. Some people cannot handle it so they bury their head in the sand and just continue to save face.
I know many like that and it scares the hell out of them that they might be wrong.
It has made some commit suicide and others extremely depressed.
Hi Holiconnoli, yes, agreed, anybody can take the survey and say what they like which is why I’m happy to cut that figure of 164,000 in half.
Nobody wants to be thought of as ignorant or stupid enough to be duped. Yet millions have and not only by this cult but by Scientology as well. The stupid ones are those too prideful to recognize that being hoodwinked by professional con men is nothing to be ashamed of. Didn’t P.T. Barnum say that “there was a sucker born every minute”?
Rather than have the humility to admit their wrongheadedness they (J.W’s) entrench themselves further into their beliefs. The more you confront them with facts about their beliefs the more they dig in. Cognitive dissonance is definitely in play along with blatant egotism.
So, rather than argue or discuss anything with these people I say let them alone and they can do their own research and dig up the dirt on their precious organization or not. In the meantime, does anyone really care about Jehovah’s Witnesses? They’re a bunch of noisy gadflys and humbugs that are truly less than nothing. Nobody believes or is interested in their beliefs or their message. Losers, all. Absolutely no one will miss them when they ignominious disappear from the world of mankind and from the pages of history except for maybe a footnote:
“Jehovah’s Witnesses (International Bible Students Association)
were an extreme example of Adventism that could trace its history back to the Millerite movement of the mid-nineteenth century. Its founder,
Pastor Charles Taze Russell, the groups pyramid doctrines were changed after his death by its second president J.F. Rutherford aka “the judge”. Future doctrines, their meeting places, their door to door proselytizing and their name itself were all made during the tenure of Rutherford. After many changes in leadership and church organization membership reached close to 8 million members worldwide. However, by 2007 the cult began a precipitous downfall after many failed prophecies concerning the end times, culminating in the battle of Armageddon, failed to come to pass. Along with continued pressure from governments to conform to obeying legislative children’s safeguards, irrelevance of their main doctrines, a continued dictatorial running of adherents private lives and the loss of membership due to death and dissatisfaction contributed to its final demise by the mid-twenty first century”.
The Society’s Governing Body is always boasting about increase but never gives the
all picture. Please see the following:
From: *** yb70 p. 314 1969—A Year of Praise ***
This tremendous increase, of course, makes Jehovah’s witnesses very happy, and when we look at the new peak in publishers for the 1969 service year we find that the final count came to 1,336,112.
To the number above you have to add the numbers of baptized from
YEARS 1970 – 1979 Total 1.793.898
YEARS 1980 – 1989 Total 1.863.106
YEARS 1990- 1999 Total 3.234.811
YEARS 2000 – 2009 Total 2.699.141
YEARS 2010 – 2013 Total 1.103.620
YEARS 2014 – 2015 Total 800.389
The bove figures will give a
GRAND TOTAL OF POTENTIAL .
***Average Publishers 2016 8.132.358
**The difference is 4.698.719 (-)
At this point you’ll have to make allowance for those who have died
(1% each year see yb74 page 254 par.4 )
During a period of 46 years Total 1.283.107 (a)
Then also make allowance for those disfellowshipped or
considered disassociated -see quotes below)
Let’s befair and take 25000/yearx46 years Total 1.125.000 (b)
This will give a grand total of 2.408.107 (a + b)
Then deduct from **The difference 4.698.719 (-)
It will give a total of 2.290.612 missing baptized br. & sist.
Adding the total (b) the result will be:
3.415.612 bptz. JW”s gone
This correspond to a loss of 42% of the total of the Average Publ.
for the year 2016
Average Publishers 2016 8.132.358
Or if you take:
Peak Publishers 2016 ……8.240.847
This will correspond to a loss of 41,45% of the total Peak Publishers
for the year 2016
*** w87 11/1 p. 18 par. 10 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***
Yet, thousands each year are reproved or disfellowshipped because of sexual immorality—‘sinning against the body.’ (1 Corinthians 6:18)
*** w91 11/15 p. 9 par. 4 Self-Control—Why So Important? ***
This sobering truth has forcefully been brought home to us by the exclusion of over 40,000 erring individuals from fellowship with the Christian congregation during the past service year, largely because of grossly wrong conduct.
*** w89 12/1 p. 17 par. 10 Do You Seek Hidden Treasures? ***
Yet, with over 41,000 disfellowshipped last year, it is clear that many brothers and sisters have neglected their spirituality.
*** w87 9/15 p. 13 par. 13 Breathing This World’s “Air” Is Death-Dealing! ***
Unfortunately, during the 1986 service year, 37,426 had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing sexual immorality.
*** w87 7/15 p. 15 par. 4 Prayers Require Works ***
. Of the more than 3,000,000 publishers of the good news last year, upwards of 37,000 were disfellowshipped for conduct unbecoming a Christian. That amounts to a ratio of about one in 80
*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***
It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality.
*** yb79 p. 31 1979 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
The seriousness of this matter is emphasized in the fact that 29,893 were disfellowshiped last year.
*** w74 8/1 p. 466 par. 24 Divine Mercy Points the Way Back for Erring Ones ***
Thus, in the United States (where there are now more than half a million Christian witnesses of Jehovah), during the ten-year period from 1963 to 1973, 36,671 persons had to be disfellowshiped for various kinds of serious wrongdoing.
*** w65 6/15 p. 373 par. 25 The Great Potter Molds Human Vessels ***
The fact that there were some 3,000 disfellowshipings in the United States alone during the 1964 service year shows how necessary this message against uncleanness is even for God’s people.
*** w59 3/15 p. 170 Keeping Strict Watch on How We Walk ***
UNDOING OF MINISTERS BY BAD MORALS
19 The need of constant, prayerful vigilance is emphasized by information from the Service Department at the Brooklyn headquarters of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society. This has to do with those dedicated baptized members belonging to the thousands of congregations in the United States of North America. For each of the five years from March, 1952, to April, 1957, there was an average of 500 members that were disfellowshiped for flagrant misdeeds that cannot be tolerated inside of Jehovah’s congregation. However, during the year from April, 1957, to April, 1958, the number rose sharply above that yearly average of 500, to 1,334 delinquent members, or more than two and a half times as many. We dare not dull the shock of this startling information by arguing that this may, in part, be due to the American congregations’ having at least 18,537 new persons associating themselves with the witnessing activities during those twelve months. That number of new ones is less than one twelfth of the 226,797 that proclaimed the Kingdom good news in America during April of 1958, about 65 percent of which proclaimers are dedicated and baptized. So what are 1,334 delinquents compared with more than 147,000 dedicated, baptized members? Less than 1 percent.
20 Though 1,334 may be less than 1 percent, this sudden jump to that number definitely discloses that more than twice as many as in previous years have failed to watch themselves and act wisely during the wicked days of 1957-1958. With 3,718 or more congregations functioning in the United States of North America, about one out of every three congregations could be affected by 1,334 disfellowshipings.
PS Calculation using the Society’s method as in the
yb74 page 254 par.4 “Is Your Faith Dead or Alive?
Sorry if I’m off topic but I don’t know where to ask this:
I am meeting some elders soon as my family wants them to convince me to go back.
I need ideas of questions and arguments to address.
Please help me with some ideas.
The Wordly One
I hope they collapse very soon and very fast
There are many ideas you might present. But you won’t win a Biblical argument with a JW. Not because you are wrong, but because they won’t accept any opposing view against their religion or its interpretation of the Bible. If you present opposing views to elders on your visit that’s what will happen, they’ll disagree and possibly attempt to change your thinking. They come to sway you; they won’t let you sway them.
If you don’t want to return to the organization then let your family members know you don’t. It is not necessary or advisable that you meet with the elders unless you are young and under your parents care, and do so at their insistence. If you are under your parents care, and because of that must see the elders then I suggest you do not argue biblical points with them or speak disparagingly of their religion. If you do they might “mark you” or disfellowship you. Also, if you tell them you no longer want to be a JW they might instruct other JWs including your family members to shun you like you’re disfellowshipped. Why invite personal problems into your life?
Main point: You don’t have to communicate anything to the elders.
You don’t have to meet them.
You don’t have to explain anything.
It’s safer to say nothing.
Unless of course you want to come back?
Completely pointless trying to duscuss anything.
I am out already, so there is no way they can DF me again.
I spoke to my family and offered them arguments which left them speechless as they don’t know how to answer.
They said they don’t know but the elders should know and asked if I wanted to discuss it with them. I agreed, mainly because I want to see how can they explain the child abuse problem, the way the Org deals with it and especially…why do they keep it secret from their members.
I am an adult and I don’t need to meet them but I only agreed to, because I wanted to see how can they explain such an atrocity. ( although members of GB weren’t able to explain it, forget about elders)
@jc Machisop. And if we apply their own calculations it would be a day for a year a day for a year times. 3.5 days divided by the inches from Alleghany Pennsylvania on a train to Brooklyn New York. Then multiply that times the inches into the Pyramids of Gaza times how long it took Jonadab to jump onto the Chariot and there KABOOM! you have the true answer of how many Witnesses there re in the world. Can you believe most of us fell for that stuff?
Hello Wordly One,
You might say that at the moment you are examining the Bible because you have doubts. Do not be specific and give ONLY the sourcen of your research
i.e. w01 7/1 pp. 18-19 Do Not Let Doubts Destroy Your Faith **
Politely refuse to discuss the matter with them.
Here below the topic printed by the Society. Take note of the phrases
preceded by (°) !
*** w01 7/1 pp. 18-19 Do Not Let Doubts Destroy Your Faith ***
Doubt—Is It Always Bad?
(°) Of course, not all doubt is bad.
(°) At times, you need to suspend acceptance of something till you are sure of the facts.
(°) Religious exhortations to the effect that you should just believe and should doubt nothing are dangerous and deceptive.
True, the Bible says that love “believes all things.” (1 Corinthians 13:7) A loving Christian is certainly ready to believe those who have proved trustworthy in the past. But God’s Word also warns against ‘putting faith in every word.’ (Proverbs 14:15)
Sometimes a person’s past record gives legitimate reason for doubt. “Although [the deceptive talker] makes his voice gracious,” the Bible warns, “do not believe in him.”—Proverbs 26:24, 25.
The apostle John also warns Christians against blind belief. “Do not believe every inspired expression,” he writes. Rather, “test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (1 John 4:1) An “expression,” a teaching or opinion, might appear to emanate from God. But did it really come from him?
(°) Exercising some doubt, or suspending belief, can be a real protection because, as the apostle John says, “many deceivers have gone forth into the world.”—2 John 7.
Greetings JC MacHislopp
Wordlyone, get them to read 1 pet 3;15, but 1st ask them if its alright to use the reference bible, when they say yes, tell them you are confused on the scripture, make sure to use the cross reference as marked on the word “Lord”
I noticed that scripture reference in ref bible, then noticed in the online ref bible version it was removed. They’ve removed most of the references in the gray bible.
Guess they had to correct their “mistakes” they made in the older version they published
Since we know more about you we can offer this advice. I don’t feel you’ll get very far in bringing up the child molestation issue with JWs. If I was a believer of WT doctrine that would be a point of interest, but it would not place a wedge under my belief. From my 2nd year after baptism I knew there were problems from elder abuse, which might have also effected WT policy and Bethel.
The first incident that made me seriously consider WT teachings to be false was when I saw Anthony Morris III advise sisters not to consider any brothers that are 22 or 23 years of age who are not ministerial servants as acceptable candidates for marriage. He said that during a televised USA Zone talk a few years ago. Not only is that idea fully unbiblical it also contradicts the WT written statement that Jehovah has anointed some males who are not servants in JW congregations.
The early teachings of the WT also prove its position which claims itself as the one true religion (org of God) to be false. It claims God chose its organization in 1919 because it was teaching the truth-the only organization that was. Until 1928 it taught a major apostate lie about the pyramid of Giza-you can look up that teaching in many online articles. WT later admitted that lie was apostate. So logically why would God choose that organization when it taught apostasy? WT expects its followers to believe God would do something that illogical, but he is logical enough to create and run the universe .Here’s a quote from Light Book One page 12, written by then WT president J Rutherford,[ ” Those who ‘hate instruction and cast the Word of the Lord behind them’. who take away from God’s Word of Revelation or who add thereto by adding the signs such as the pyramid of Gizeh, will not understand. “None of the wicked shall understand.”-Ps.50:17; Dan.12:10; Rev.22:19″] published 1930.
In the above quote Rutherford calls those who teach the Giza doctrine “the wicked” when that doctrine was believed and taught by WT until 1928. So, was WT “the wicked” or were they “God’s chosen organization” as they also claim and claimed to be? They logically could not have been both. With illogical reasoning I guess a person could believe both true as JWs do, but the point is does the God of the universe require people to follow him by demanding they accept such illogical reasoning because a group of people claim God requires that? And what proof do they have God put them in that position, especially since they also claim God does not contact people in our day, and early WT writings claim pastor Russell was never contacted by God.
The elders won’t agree WT’s current teachings are warped, but when analyzed those prove false also. Where in the Bible does it say Christ does not accept a follower of his who votes in political elections? God himself manipulated events so Joseph would be the second highest political figure in a “pagan” nation; God also manipulated events to put Daniel in the 3rd highest political position inside a “pagan” nation. The scriptures state God places all authorities in their respective positions. Since he places them there doesn’t he use votes as one tool to do such, inside republics or semi-democratic nations? Why should the votes of Christians be excluded when God’s influence over Christians should be greater than his influence over non-Christians.
There are so many ways to refute WT teachings. The problem is not in the ways WT can be proven wrong it is in the doctrine that has been deeply buried into the minds of JWs. That doctrine teaches WT could be wrong and yet have God’s approval, but nobody who does not follow WT can be wrong about points relating to God and have his approval. WT doctrine teaches a double standard.
Here’s one point you might raise. Why is it God would excuse any false teaching or behavior from the WT Society and its authority figures when he will not excuse those behaviors from other Christian denomination members? To me that would make God partial, but the scriptures claim he is not.
Those are some really good points that you’ve suggested. It makes a lot of sense. If only it made sense to my family…
I am going to try and address these and I will let you know how it goes.
Thanks a lot
Try asking them to show you their copy of The finished Mystery by C.T.Russell. An invisible Jesus is supposed to have viewed Russell’s work before declaring Russells views as one hundred percent correct, the one true faith and all other religions to be in apostasy. This being the case and given that the truth never changes, every JW should have a copy and the entire works of Russell should be under glass at WT headquarters. Are they?
I would hammer the point that being a Christian is different to being a Witness. For example, being a Witness means wanting the end to come as fast as possible, keep repeating it is imminent, keep mentioning years, to ensure our salvation. Being a Christian means feeling sorry for the 8 billion people who will be destroyed, especially the ones in India and China who haven’t been given a decent chance to hear the good news.
Being a Witness means ignoring what happened in the Australian Royal Commission, the Condace Conti case in the US and the ‘Amelia’ case in the UK (both of which Watchtower lost) as well as the recent $66 million class action in Canada. Being a Witness means joining a conspiracy of silence with regards to this. Being a Christian means taking immediate action to rectify what has gone wrong so that others are not hurt- love of neighbour means we care about the victims, while love of God means we don’t want to dirty his name by the shameful conduct of some leaders in our organization. Similar to when an aircraft crashes: an investigation takes place immediately and any findings of faulty parts or faulty process are acted on immediately so as to protect others.
As no organization has ever benefitted by keeping its shameful practices a secret, why does the Governing Body think that by keeping quiet, this thing will just go away? This silence will damage the organization.
And why keep the fact that Watchtower was an NGO affiliated with the UN, requiring it to promote the UN and its tenets, a secret? Now with jw.org, it would be very simple for the GB to have a section explaining from their point of view what happened, in both the UN fiasco and the child sexual abuse cases. But they don’t. And Christians wouldn’t act like this. The Bible writers were very candid in bringing out their mistakes. And so was Jesus in Revelation, from heaven pointing out the problems in the different congregations.
And the abuse in the congs is not limited to sexual abuse. Mental and emotional abuse is typical, because the elders know they can get away with it. Would Christians want to mentally or emotionally abuse the flock? But elders revel in it. Why? Why is submission so strongly emphasised in our org, when it should be love which is emphasised? What was Jesus known for? His control over people, making sure they recognized his position? Or his love? So what should an organization that Jesus is head of be known for? Love, right?
So Ricardo, Jesus is clearly not the head of your organisation??? I wondered why you still refer to it as ‘our’ organisation when the majority of us don’t want to be a part of it anymore? Just a thought.
@Badpenny, have you seen Cedars’ video about giving up, where the Japanese soldier wouldn’t give up until a Mr Suzuki came and told him the war was over? Cedars then went on to say that for individual JWs there is no Mr Suzuki to tell you that the war is over. But Cedars is wrong. In most congregations there are members like me ready to inform those that will listen about the child sex abuse court case losses and class actions and UN membership. The elders can’t kick me out of the organization because I haven’t given them reason to. But I am a thorn in their side every time I turn up at the meeting.
At the moment, in the congregation where I am, 8 publishers have stopped putting in their field service report. That’s 20 percent of the congregation. I could not experience the disintegration of the congregation or the organization to the same degree if I were not in it bodily, (but out mentally). As I say to the true believers who tell me to leave if I am not happy, I am also a member of this organization,and I have just as much right to say: What a mess! Watch out you don’t forget how to be a Christian.
Not that I’m saying that to you, Badpenny. I’m just explaining myself. I say ‘our’ organization because it is still mine and by using this terminology I send the message to the JW I am speaking to that I am one of them. Only, I am not a nodding zombie.
OK Ricardo I get your drift.
It is good for us to still get inside information from you. Do you believe that you are succeeding in warning others so that they are aware of the dangers within, or is your purpose to encourage others to leave? You could well be classed as a bad association. You are, as you say, a thorn in the elders’ side. You are obviously being scrutinised. They could well accuse you of causing dissent among the brothers. Take care.
@Bad Penny, thanks for your concern. I keep hoping the elders will have a talk with me so I can tell them off. I am certainly viewed as a bad associate, but so are a dozen others in the congregation and we all associate together. If we could get a few more on our team we could start shunning the true believers.
For the next survey could we have a Q on the dress code – why no beards allowed for men, why men have to wear suits to meetings, the competitive dress code of sisters etc?
John. Can you contact me directly ? Not on this forum.
I have something big to break but we need your input and contacts.
You hopefully have my email privately.
It’s regarding Ireland
I might be able to help with that, if you want to contact me too.
Two key points:
King James Bible
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Matthew 24:36King James Version (KJV)
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Epic fail by on both scriptures, you do not need this organisation!
mid-week meeting (world-wide) local needs talk about donations. Wonderful.
Local Needs: (15 min.) Talk by an elder. Give a five-minute Scriptural introduction based on the November 15, 2015, Watchtower, page 14, and then play the video Tutorial for Making Donations Electronically. After the video, show the page “How to Donate to the Worldwide Work” on jw.org, and review the options for electronic donations listed for your country.
The increase in printed literature, the increase in number of full time service people….of course they need more money.
More like increase in child abuse survivors coming forward with their stories. It’s really a decrease in literature…the elders here requested that we not ask for the new song book that came out, if we have access to electronic means, we should download. We haven’t even received the 2013 revised grey bible yet, I guess Spanish is the last to get it since there is not a problem with new ones coming in with the old info.
I haven’t donated in 5 yrs since I researched this org.
Just to clarify, my comment is sarcastic.
I am very aware that they reduce the literature printing and field staff but have an increase in lawsuits.
I was just being sarcastic
@Morris, thanks for that warning. I’m not going then.I stopped donating many many years ago.
not going either. I’m sure there will be more ‘donation’ type talks based on dwindling funds. I can’t donate (haven’t donated in 10 years) to an organization spending money on court cases or having to split the bill on those living in luxury with every unthinkable amenity provided. Let the GB work for a living and outsource the printing and walk in our shoes ~ Jesus did. God doesn’t need my money as I give of my time and energy which is more valuable than money. I think I would rather have collection baskets pushed than these type of talks.
In two weeks Steven Lett is coming to dedicate the local RTO. I would like my son to present him with a poster saying: Pity the little children. Change your policy so there are no more Condace Contis, no more Amelias and no more class actions.
Anyone want to come for a holiday in Asia and protest to Rubber Face at the same time?
Good old “Rubber Face”, thats going to stick like “Tight Pants Tony” Wah…..
@ Ricardo. What do you refer to as an RTO?
@ Holy Connoli,
Remote Translation Offices (RTO) of Jehovah’s Witnesses
Also, will we be on the look out for their World Wide report when ever it comes out on their site? I am curious as to see whether they actually publicize every country. or just the grand totals , as previously done on jw,org. Thanks all,
@Peggy, I think the publisher numbers reached their zenith late last year. The GB probably saw that the numbers were collapsing through the months of this year and so panicked and cancelled the yearbook.
@HolyCannoli, RTO is Watchtower speak for Regional Translation Office. It’s like a mini-Bethel where translation is done.
@HC, like Peggy said. A Remote Translation Office is like a little Bethel where they do translation into the native languages.
Yes, I did it! I got a poster about child abuse into Lett’s hands. Let’s see if I get into trouble for this.
In the hall I go to. This coming Tuesday, during the book study part of the meeting, we will be studying chapter 21 in the book – God’s Kingdom Rules. IN this chapter it claims the U.N. is the wild beast and will turn against all false religions and Jehovah’s people will be the LAST ones they will turn against. They say it’s a sign that hasn’t happened yet. And the end is very near. I turned to my sister and said the end isn’t that near yet because Putin would have to turn against his own orthodox catholic religion and it’s the orthodox catholic religion giving Jehovah’s Witnesses a bad time right now. My sister said it’s a sign for us to watch out for. Brain washing is weird to see, it’s unnerving. My family is intimidated by me because I called C.P.S on them for child endangerment. I’m in good standing so they can’t ignore me. I go to their hall and I’m in good standing so they can’t ignore me. I called C.P.S. after the elders told me to mind my own business. The C.P.S case worker’s name is Mario. The end result is the judge placed my niece on probation. The elders told my niece they had to stay out of it because I had called C.P.S
Wife is a brainwashed witness. I’m one of those non-believers in a false religion. Had the same discussion with her about the plight of JWs in Russia. Said seems to me that JWs must be part of the “false religions” as they were the first ones to be attacked and dissolved by a worldly government. You can imagine the response I got.
Not on Subject …..can someone please check this company out! 10837762! Very weird and mentions Child Documents. I have to be careful….In but Out….
I hope one of these days we get on a new subject other than child abuse. I’m ready for some different new subjects
Your wish is my command, Hardy, and this observation fits Watchtower –
How many saints and miracles and councils and conclaves are required in order first to establish a dogma and then – after infinite pain and loss and absurdity and cruelty – be forced to rescind one of those dogmas? – Christopher Hitchens.
Will Watchtower ever rescind their blood ban?
Will they ever treat child rape as a crime?
Will they ever stop shunning?
Will they ever stop lying?
Will they ever put lives before money?
Will they ever stop ruining lives just to ensure the survival of the cult and it’s leaders and it’s minions?
Remove their charitable status now!
My friend who stepped down from being an elder 15 years ago and has been ignored by the elders ever since, and who punched an elder several times in the kingdom hall last month, just got invited to a judicial committee. The grounds: for causing divisions in the congregation and for undermining confidence in the theocratic arrangement. The elders have never met with him to discuss or counsel him about this. And now they want to df him.
Will I be next?
Sounds like they are trying to clear out the dissenters. Get ready for the inevitable. How about a pair of boxing gloves to bop the buggers on the nose!! Just kidding. Fear them not, they are just dust dressed up! It will be interesting to see how it turns out for your friend. Remember, life does not depend on being a Watchtower slave.
Th.ey did it. The elders were able to disfellowship my friend because he had said negative things about the elders and the organization to a number of brothers over a number of years. But then again, so have I. What a debacle. The organization leads us through fear! Not by love. If you dare say something bad about the elders or the org, even if you have fair reason to, they can kick you out.
Now the real trouble starts. Now that war has been declared, anything is possible. Some of the local brothers are trying really hard to get the witnesses banned in this country, so that the foreign elders will be forced to leave. The brothers don’t react well to fear
My friend appealed the decision of the judicial committee to disfellowship him. The appeal committee today upheld the decision to disfellowship him. Now he is appealing to the branch.
An elder called me this morning. He said he was with another elder and they wanted to investigate a report that I was seen having a meal with a d’fed individual. Unfortunately the battery fell out of my cellphone at that moment, so I never found out what they were going to do next. But luckily I need to leave the country to renew my visa, and hopefully they will never catch up with me.
Investigating reports of a meal?
That sounds like Trump’s alleged meetings with Russian officials and Priti Patel’s meeting with Israeli politicians.
Who do they think they are? To instruct you on who you can or cannot meet.
They’d better get a life
Sounds like the gestapo is after you. You’re probably aware that they took out (df’d) Ray Franz, the ex-GB official, because he ate lunch with his landlord who was a disassociated Witness. Looks like they are looking to pull that type move on you Ricardo.
If they do don’t feel overly upset. If WT and its elders were who they claim to be it would mean God requires you to bow down to misrepresentations of his word delivered by people who believe in a human Reich, claiming it is be headed up by Christ. Do you really think Christ heads up WT? Does Christ head up WT? Christ heads up WT? Sounds like contradictory claims; he heads up WT, and he lived out those historical biblical accounts? Christ heads up WT, and he holds all the WT elders in his right hand?
In my first marriage I was married to the nicest person I have ever known. Her personality was like we read people’s will be in the new system.
Then I was a new Witness and I was working in field service one morning with the elder that studied with me before I was baptized. I considered him a friend and companion. In field service that morning he told me to cut my wife’s allowance because she did not raise her hand to comment enough to suit him at the meetings he conducted-the WT meetings. He was the WT conductor. I listened to him but did not do what he wanted me to. The very next WT meeting and every meeting after that he no longer called on me when I raised my hand to participate in the meetings. That action, not to call on me, was also started for a while by all the other elders in that congregation, and it continued to be done by that WT conductor and the service overseer until I finally changed congregations about a year later. Even after they appointed me as a MS those two elders continued that behavior of refusing to call on me without ever having any discussions with me about any part of my behavior, just that one mention about my wife’s with that one brother.
After I moved to a congregation in a different county 60 miles from there, I once spoke out of turn at a book study held inside a private home. Immediately after I did that the WT study conductor in that congregation stopped calling on me and also stopped calling on my 8 year old son who had done nothing, when we’d raise our hands to participate in the meetings there. That also went on for about a year until they were reported to the circuit overseer. Stop calling on an 8 year old boy because his dad spoke out of turn during a book study house meeting?
Do you seriously believe Christ heads these people up? Does God have a gestapo? This petty behavior of attacking congregants in asinine ways without even discussing issues of concern with them has been going on for years. I’ve seen it taking place in this third county I now live in which is about 100 miles away from that second county I lived in. And it has been reported to me to have been done to multiple people here including elders and their families for the most petty reasons.
So, I ask, does Christ have his gestapo, or are these people fraudulently claiming to be what they are not? This sort of behavior may take place inside other Christian denominations. But if so, what makes the JWs different from those denominations? What would make those denominations apostates, and the asinine behaviors of Witnesses proof that JWs are exclusively God’s people? Why would God overlook misrepresentations about him and his word by Witness and not overlook Witness claimed misrepresentations about God by devout members of other Christian denominations? If a 100% understanding about God and his word is necessary for his approval we’re all going to hell, because even the apostles admitted they did not have that. And WT admits it doesn’t have it also. So, why is everyone else’s mistaken views [according to WT] about God condemning them to hell when the thousands of false teachings printed in Watchtowers don’t condemn the Witnesses? And why do they call that truth when even WT admits to being wrong hundreds of times, and in reality it’s more likely WT’s been wrong thousands of times, and presently still is?
What really woke me up is when I saw the same type of asinine belief taught by Tony Morris the third. He teaches or taught no brother that is not an appointed MS, an appointed elder or above by WTS is proper marriage material by a Christian woman. Most of the brothers in congregations I’ve been in are not appointed servants. For Tony’s claim to be true their wives are not married to devote Christian men. Sieg heil Tony Morris the third !
WT at times teaches Witnesses not follow men or be a man pleaser, especially when ethical and Bible principles are involved. And yet it demands exclusive devotion to its misrepresentations in print that it labels TRUTH. Seig heil!!! Are these people who they claim to be?
The biggest apostate is the apostate that claims to be Christian but demands exclusive devotion for himself and his group. “He is set in opposition [to God] and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God [the accepted Christian congregation members as individuals], publicly showing himself to be a god.” 2nd Thessalonians 2:4
Seig heil WT!!! Just take a pinch of that incense and throw it on the fire!!!
@Messenger, that is a sad sad story. If we could add up all the subtle ways elders use to control the flock, what a testimony of shame it would be! I am so disgusted with our leaders! The rank-and-file are wonderful people, maybe brainwashed but friendly honest people. But our leadership is trash. And what is so sad is that they don’t know they are trash. They are like pigs wallowing in the mud saying how wonderful they all are.
Just heard the decision from the branch was to uphold my friend’s disfellowshipment.
At the moment I put a lock on my front security door (I live in an apartment), have jammed an electricity bill in the door and keep the light in my front room turned off so that the elders will think I have moved. Hopefully they will stop knocking on my door. Imagine, this is the length we must go to protect ourselves from our loving shepherds!
If I do end up getting d’fed, I will go to a neighbouring country and study the Bible with some Witnesses there and get baptized again. There is always a way to beat the system.
I like the teaching but why is it that u dont observe sabbath
Why do people observe the sabbath? If salvation depends on faith in Jesus, and Jesus has died for us, is there a need to keep the sabbath? Did Noah keep the sabbath? Did Noah eat pork? He was allowed to eat pork, so maybe he ate it. If he was allowed to eat pork, I doubt that he kept the sabbath. Both the command to keep the sabbath and the command not to eat pork were given to the Jews. Not to Noah. Not to us.
Please don’t let yourself be captivated by the J.W. teaching. All of us on this site have been there and done that – we now realise that not everything they say is truthful or even scripturally correct.
I would encourage you to please do some research before you entertain the idea that they may be the true religion. Information is out there on every subject you wish to investigate. Try JW Lies, JW Facts etc., and the multiple subjects here on jw survey.
As to the Sabbath – Jesus said at Mark 2 vs.27 “The Sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath.” It was originally a covenant between God and the nation of Israel which set them apart from the nations roundabout; a sacred day when they could rest from their labours. Unfortunately, in this day and age, a day of rest seems almost impossible, although the Jews do still have a Sabbath. The original Sabbath day was the seventh day, our Saturday. The Catholic Church changed the ‘holy’ day to Sunday and the rest of religion followed. Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that this law of keeping the Sabbath was nailed to the ‘torture stake’ at Jesus’ death.
The WT teachings seem biblical to those who do not know the freedom Christ gives his followers, because WT teachings set up a moral code while teaching you that moral code comes from Bible scriptures, but much of it doesn’t. Most of those teachings exclusive to WT only comes from WT, not God or Christ. If it really came from the scriptures people who are not JWs would also see evidence of it in Bible scriptures, but they don’t (because its not there).
For instance, WT teaches the word “world” as it is sometimes used in the Bible refers to the world’s political systems, its economic systems, and its religious systems. And since the word is sometimes used in a derogatory fashion WT does not allow its members to vote in the world’s political systems. Yet WT owns or has owned thousands and thousands of stocks. It has invested heavily in the economic system it claims is also a major component of the “world,” as expressed in the Bible when used with a negative connotation. Who and what tells JWs they can invest in one system (the economic system as WT does), and not the political system? Is it God or WT saying that? And who claims the way the word “world” is sometimes used in the Bible refers to those three systems? Is it God’s Bible or is it the WT saying that?
You like the WT teaching, but much of that teaching is not coming from the Bible. Much of it is extensions and commentaries on biblical writings that are opinions from men. That’s the reason WT often changes its understanding on what scriptures mean. The true freedom Christ gives is the freedom to be accepted by God without feeling forced to follow traditions and unbiblical teachings from man-made institutions claiming to represent God. All members belonging to WT must follow its moral codes or else they will be expelled from that church. WT has become to JWs a messiah, and mediator between God and men/women. WT already has written and taught that Christ is not your mediator in contradiction of biblical thought. WT has set itself in the seat of Christ. It has become your mediator if you follow it. To God it has become your God, because he only shares his god-ship with his son. No one else will he share it with, not even WT. According to scripture there is only one mediator and one name to be saved by. Both answers are Jesus Christ. And yet WT fails to teach that fundamental Bible truth. WT teaches one is saved by calling on the name Jehovah, as no doubt a devout Jew might when in times of trouble.
Some of the condemnatory scriptures we as JWs taught our Bible students actually apply to WT. Here’s one of the most famous ones we shared with those we tried to convert. These were Christ’s words, “It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrine.” NWT Matthew 15:9.
You’ve got the Watchtower all sorted out, messenger, but you’ve only solved half the puzzle. Truth is important to you, so you may like to work out why the Greek demigod Perseus was born when the god Jupiter visited the virgin Danae as a shower of gold and got her with child, the god Buddha was born through an opening in his mothers flank, Catlicus the serpent-skirted caught a little ball of feathers from the sky and hid it in her bosom and the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli was thus conceived, the virgin Nana took a pomegranate from the tree watered by the blood of slain Agdestris and laid it on her bosom and gave birth to the god Attis, the virgin daughter of a Mongol king awoke one night and found herself bathed in a great light, which caused her to give birth to Genghis Khan, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka, Horus was born of the virgin Isis, Mercury was born of the virgin Maia, Romulus was born of the virgin Rhea Sylvia. And of course Jesus was born of a virgin also.
Working out what makes each and every one of these things possible requires complete honesty, so of course, this is where you come in, right?
The answer is contained in two words each beginning with the letter ‘m’.
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