JW.org has issued a press release warning that it is due to be banned in Russia if Watchtower is unsuccessful in appealing a Russian court’s decision against the website.
According to the report, the decision dates back to August 7, 2013 when the Tsentralniy District Court (100 miles north of Moscow) ruled that the website should be banned throughout the Russian Federation.
An appeal against this decision is scheduled for today, January 22, 2014. If Watchtower fails, promoting their website will become a criminal act in the country.
JW.org is already banned in mainland China.
***UPDATE – since this article was published, JWsurvey has learned that the ban was overturned on appeal. Click here for more details (Russian news article).***
The news comes only days after a Russian newspaper reported that a court in the country had declared several Watchtower brochures “extremist.”
According to the report, “the prosecutor’s office said that analyses by linguistic experts had concluded that the brochures contained propaganda that promoted the superiority of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and denigrated other faiths as false.”
Those like myself who believe Watchtower publications are strewn with propaganda will welcome such findings. However, the labelling of the organization as “extremist” would be far more credible coming from a country whose government is not itself considered extremist by many people due to its perceived corruption and lack of democratic transparency.
Sadly, it seems it takes an extremist to spot an extremist.
A dubious press release
The JW.org press release, apparently designed to draw attention to the website’s impending censorship and stir up opinion against it, enlists the support of a Russian academic in hailing JW.org as a “gift.”
“Commenting on the website, Yekaterina Elbakyan, Doctor of Philosophy and expert in religious studies who serves as a professor at the Academy of Labor and Social Relations in Moscow, says that jw.org is ‘a gift for anybody who is engaged in religious research. It provides comprehensive and understandable material. Significant spiritual and moral issues are presented in a simple way. When you use the website, you feel like you are being openly welcomed into the home of Jehovah’s Witnesses.'”
And so, it would seem, a neutral academic and expert on religion has given JW.org her glowing endorsement. But wait, who is Yekaterina Elbakyan? And what other organizations has she been willing to endorse in the recent past?
After a brief search on Google, we find the same “academic” lavishing similar praise on the Church of Scientology, as quoted in the book Ordinary Anti-Cultism by Sergey Ivanenko (Ivanenko being another Russian “scholar” with an inexplicable urge to support cults in Russia for motives best known to himself).
And so, in trying to position itself as a legitimate religion worthy of respect, it seems Watchtower is all too willing to run under the same protective umbrella as the Church of Scientology with its blatant quackery and charlatanry.
Whether Dr Elbakyan is motivated by truth or her bank balance in defending cults like Watchtower and Scientology seemingly on demand is a question best answered by her (or her accountant), but she is clearly not an authority to be trusted when appraising the merits of a religion if she is so unscrupulous in throwing around her endorsements.
A “trusted information source?”
As expected, the JW.org press release also features endorsements from Watchtower representatives, who can hardly be considered unbiased.
Speaking at the end of the article, Watchtower’s PR kingpin J.R. Brown has this to say…
“The jw.org website is valued both as a research tool and as a trusted information source for families all over the world. It is so valued that an average of 900,000 people visit the site every day to access positive information available in some 600 languages. Censoring this material is clearly unwarranted.”
Nobody would question whether families of Jehovah’s Witnesses trust the information on JW.org, but whether they are right to do so is another matter entirely.
This website has already exposed a number of misleading statements in the FAQs section of JW.org that paint a picture of the organization that is unrecognizable from reality. As just one example, JW.org’s answer to the question “Do You Feel That You Are The Only People Who Will Be Saved?” begins with the word “No!”
In making his statement, Brown continues his unenviable task of spinning Watchtower to the world’s media as a benign and even beneficial religion when it is anything but.
To see another demonstration of Brown’s impressive ability to spin the organization in a way that is media-friendly, you may find the following video enlightening.
Scrutiny, not censorship
I can’t deny having some sense of relief that a website that lies so blatantly about its practices and manipulates children might suddenly become unavailable to the good people of Russia. Heaven knows many Russians have enough on their plates without being hoodwinked into joining a harmful self-centered cult that ruins so many families, my own included.
But this relief is tinged with a sense of foreboding. I am a believer in the free internet, and any talk of censorship no matter how justified does not sit well with me.
It would be much better if governments could zero in on material that incites hatred and trespasses the Universal Declaration of Human Rights rather than introducing blanket bans on entire websites or the activities of religious organizations. To censor in this way only stirs the persecution complex among cults, and stokes belief among cult followers that Satan’s system is against them and the end of the world must be imminent.
If a certain article or FAQ page is found to contain false or misleading information, of which there are ample examples on JW.org, why not impose penalties or pursue legal avenues aimed at getting the specific material removed or corrected? Censoring an entire website on the assumption that ALL material is false seems draconian and heavy-handed, and threatens free speech for all.
That said, it would be nice if Western governments could pay such close attention to what Watchtower is saying and doing. The likes of Russia and China have their own not-so-noble motives for clamping down on the organization and snuffing out any perceived threat to locally entrenched religious or political authority.
The day when fair and proportionate action is taken against Watchtower by a democratic nation motivated by genuine concern for the welfare of its citizens and the upholding of human rights will be a day worth celebrating, but it is not upon us yet.
Further reading…
Some very good and enjoyable comments and responses on this thread, good topic you chose Cedars to get people thinking. Rowland and Hakizamana both show a lot of insight. Hope there is a day where we all cross paths and can have lunch or something.
As for Steve, The Bible is Right and some of the others, well… even though they are still witnesses they want out and aren’t ready to accept the emotional pain that comes with it. I certainly understand. Otherwise why would they come to an apostate website to comment?
@Steve, here is something to ponder, you said to Cedars “read with a searching heart and perhaps you will learn some thing.” You may be surprised but I am not seeking to challenge that statement at all. Rather to ask you to think of its origins. What is a searching heart mean. Is it the literal heart that searches? Or are you referring to using his brain and making the cognitive decision with his brain to keep an open mind. If so, why do you use the word heart instead of brain? Actually, I know why, I imagine you may not.
Here is the answer to where such a statement comes. The average JW such as I used to be, will regurgitate what the Watchtower has taught them. It will sound something like this. “It is the figurative heart that is mentioned in the Bible and the heart is the seat of emotion.”
Now for the real truth. When a person uses such an expression, they are actually referring back to ancient Egyptian beliefs, beliefs that predate the Jews and Christianity. The Egyptians believed the heart was the seat of emotion and based upon its condition at death a person would be judged in the afterlife. The heart of an Egyptian would be weighed in the afterlife and if it were as light as a feather he would receive a favorable judgement. As proof that this was the case. Egyptians who were mummified often had their brains removed and other organs viewed as valueless in the afterlife. However the heart was well preserved, so that they could receive proper judgement. Additionally by studying Egyptian culture you will also see that this is fact.
Why bring all of this up. As a JW it is understood that the references in the Bible to the heart come from Jehovah. However, history easily proves that this is not the case. In fact it comes from Egypt. Since Jehovah (if you believe) is a jealous God and does not want his worship tainted with false beliefs. Why would he adopt a central idea or cornerstone of Egyptian false beliefs. Simple Scientific fact shows that the heart has nothing to do with our emotions or our feelings, it is all contained in our amazing brain. For that matter why would god not speak of the center of the brain that is the source of emotions and often actions. Instead he borrows from a false and worthless Egyptian belief.
Here is the real back story. Jews go to Egypt to build the Pyramids and enjoy the highest standard of living at the time. While their they adopt what is considered the enlightened view and scientific standard of the day. When they leave and seek to create their own government, they recognize the need for religion. They come up with their own God and borrow from other religious faiths starting with Egypt and later the poetic teachings of Zoroaster. They plaguerized everything even the story of Gilgamesh while intertwining it with their personal history that obviously glorified them and their God story.
Today such expressions are used in a bunch of Christian countries without any thought of its origin. As for the JW belief system, “what sharing does light have with darkness?” Truly the belief about the heart is false. The idea of the heart being figurative is made up by JW G.B. members, who can spin a cow into a country, a leopard into a former nation, a dragon (a mythological creature stolen by Christians for their book) into the devil and whatever they want. Why can’t they go ahead and spin the literal heart (an amazing pumping system) into a part of the brain. Wake up there is so much more to learn and then enjoy life!
Oh Snap!
This place is crawling with JW apologists!
This is actually a good sign. They are making their initial steps toward resisting the Governing Body by disobeying them. Keep up the good work Cedars!
“Your opinion is your own, and you have the right to hold it. I just am not interested in hearing it.”
A good sign that you are a born again Evolutionist. An Apostate is someone that argues that what he believed was right is now wrong. This is a fundamental right. But when someone sets themself up to publically fight against the truth about God – they are taking the matter further. From the comments on this site … I can see that many have no idea and their hatred for God causes them to state false arguments. The good thing – it can be immediately be seen that the arguments are false and twisted to deceive the innocent reader.
Whether God exists is a moot point. The Gov. Bod of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, like the Pope of Rome, certainly does exist.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, like all the other Protestant sects, reject the Pope’s claim that he is God’s sole earthly rep.
The only sect in Christendom which accepts the JW Gov. Bod’s claim that it is God’s sole earthly rep. is that late 19th century Adventist spinoff sect, the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Please do not confuse God with either the JW Gov. Bod. or the Pope of Rome. They are three distinct entities.
The Bible is Right Again,
You have not understood what apostasy means. Until we can agree to a definition of a word that a dictionary can agree with, we will not be able to debate.
Your comments have not encouraged me to return to your religion. You do not exhibit the spirit of Jesus. You do not show us respect. You do not show us love.
You have lied about the consequences of leaving the WTBTS.
The facts do not demonstrate that you are right. The fruitage of your words proves that they are not right.
Your opinion is your own, and you have the right to hold it. I just am not interested in hearing it.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
@The Bible is right again, What is your level of education?
“from this action of going against the Creator [THEIR FATHER] they brought evil to our planet.” I am sad to hear a 21 Century man or woman believes in nonsenses!! ANGELS MATING WITH HUMANS AND MAKING GRANDCHILDREN FOR JEHOVAH WHO FINALLY KILL THEM.
“they brought evil to our planet.” do you mean evil started in Heaven?”
(Isaiah 45:6, 7) . . .I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. 7 Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
(Isaiah 45:6, 7) . . .I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. 7 Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
Jehovah is playing both roles, Satan’s (his son) and his or hers!!!
@The Bible is right again,
You are saying “the Bible warns that Satan has blinded many…”
You are an “APOSTATE” as the Bible says that “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else [NOT EVEN SATAN]. Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.” (Isaiah 45:6, 7)!
The simple truth is:
(1 Corinthians 1:28) . . .[your god with your support] chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are…
@The Bible is right again but you are WRONG. You are apostatizing against the Watchtower’s teachings:
Reference: w11 7/15 p. 15, “Apostasy” is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w11+7%2F15+pp.+15-19)
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu asks
“What is your level of education?”
Now Now …….. It is no good changing the subject.
You further ask … “Do you mean evil started in Heaven?” You are giving evidence that you know zero about what you arguing on this site. WHO was the first liar?
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu ……. I am wise to your trickery. By misleading with false contentions confirms that you are not seeking the truth but you are attempting to hide the truth from others.
You have been misled by others in the desires of your cult and not checked the facts out.
You do not quote the Isaiah 45: 6 & 7 correctly ignoring the fact that Isaiah is discussing the fact that God is the Creator …. THAT there is only one true God. The peace and clamity relate to God’s creation of the day. A day in one’s life can bring peace and claimity.
BUT you are following your dogma to mislead with utter complete falsehoods to deceive others – in support of your secret false god. Wake up … there is hope for you.
Please supply some evidence that the Bible is something more than a fallible and man made book.
Are you confusing truth with the ever changing outpourings of the bosses of that minor sect of Christendom based in New York? They call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses, and their principal concern is augmenting the capital value of their property portfolio and other capital assets.
They have been, hitherto, successful, having mastered the dark arts of cult mind control and convinced their c. 8 million followers worldwide that working for free will earn them a place in Paradise.
Maybe, ‘The Bible is Right Again’ has heard of them.
Rowland Nelken says:
“Please supply some evidence that the Bible is something more than a fallible and man made book.”
You have just given evidence that you come to this site with a special interest. You are not concerned about any particular religion being wrong … but you have the desire to go against God and his word the Bible.
Give me your best alleged error of the Bible. Just your best and let us see if you are correct!!!
I have given no evidence of the kind. My mission is to warn people against the dangers of getting involved with that grubby little Protestant sect, that ugly little corner of Christendom, that abusive world hating and life denying cult that overshadowed my childhood, the Jehovah’ Witnesses.
As to the existence of a God, that is another matter entirely. If there is a benign God, which I doubt, it certainly has no connection with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and no responsibility for a book which glorifies genocide (in the Book of Joshua) and demands execution for Sabbath breakers (in the Torah) and spins ridiculous yarns like the stories of the Creation, Flood and the Tower of Babel which defy logic and science.
Rowland Nelken says:
“and spins ridiculous yarns like the stories of the Creation, Flood and the Tower of Babel which defy logic and science.”
Show me a scientific paper etc THAT states [1] our Universe and Planet Earth were not created. There was not a GREAT flood; and [3] there was no Tower of Babel.
IT IS NOTED THAT ….. you could not give me your best alleged error of the Bible.
Please read any account of the origins of the universe and the history of the world. You will realise that the Old Testament myths are just that. If you genuinely believe them to be historical fact, please supply some corroborative evidence.
The Bible is right again, I was just about to say “but there are cool people among JW’s” you just came and rained on my parade :-) Nobody will take me seriously now :-)
Now, joke aside, just to state an opinion – and please don’t get offended. If someone comes against you with, let’s say, accusations, you MUST consider those in detail and provide counter arguments with equal respect (actually with MORE respect). Some people left the organization precisely because of their love for God and for the truth – and because they couldn’t see WT being aligned with these truths. You can’t accuse them of hating God.
Some JW’s here poured insults, treated people idiots, compared to Judas, … Unfortunately, I saw similar arrogance elsewhere too. If the arguments come short, the accusations and insults start. If you don’t sincerely try giving satisfactory arguments and show your kinder side, even to those reproaching JW’s, how do you think you’d be able to honour Jehovah’s name ?
Do you expect people leave the blog and Cedars to shut it down, upon your comments belittling them ?
JB says:
“So you expect people leave the blog and Cedars to shut it down, upon your comments belittling them ?”
I know the truth hurts …. it seems that you and others want to say things that are false to mislead and because it is pointed out that it is a falsehood – you get upset. It is not my words that are upsetting you – but the fact that statements are made on this site to deliberately offend when the persons have not checked their facts out first.
I am not upset. I am mostly outside planting and weeding. I have also not said anything false or misleading. You have called Cedars, Judas and other people blind. People have tried to be respectful, but you keep coming back with insults and very strange statements, that do not make sense. Do you really think that a loving god would want you to name call, or do you think that a loving god would want you to be at peace? Off to weed the strawberries.
No, The Bible is right again, the truth doesn’t hurt …
So glad to be out says:
“You have called Cedars, Judas and other people blind.”
Firstly – Cedars was praised because it was alleged he was an alleged elder in some past time and this gave him insight. I merely proved with the knowledge that ‘Judas’ was on the inside of the select group of the 12 disciples and that ‘Judas’ had zero spiritural insight or knowledge – he was blind. Cedars for his own reasons has departed from his true God. But if he is true … one day he may see his error.
“Cedars for his own reasons has departed from his true God. But if he is true … one day he may see his error.”
Where is my error? In case you didn’t notice, there is a promise on this website, which states…
“Is there something incorrect or unfactual on this website? If so, please let us know and we will correct it.”
So, are you interested in getting into the specifics of what I’m so wrong about, or do you simply enjoy letting off hot air?
I hope it’s not the latter, in which case I look forward to receiving an itemized list of corrections for JWsurvey. In the meantime, I think we’ve heard quite enough of your ranting for now.
Cedars says:
“Once you are ready to contribute meaningfully to the discussion by not lying to people, please let me know and I will let you back on.”
This is the trick … Hitler did it …. with him it was book burning and others it was to burn the poor Christains who wanted to publish God’s word the Bible. By rejecting me … you are rejecting the truth. In the past you may have been wronged … we all do wong things. But do not blame the true God. He is waiting for you to return tio him. That is why God is presently disciplining you … because he loves you.
Where do you get the idea, ‘The Bible is Right Again’, that you are speaking for God and truth? It is not remotely clear.
The Bible is right again
So no apology, just more arrogant abuse. Do you really think you have your god given right to determine anything? What a presumption. I feel sorry for you and that is why I continue the dialogue. But this will be my last comment to you. Please feel free to have the last word, my life is too rich to give someone who insults and does not apologise, any more time
You wanted some biblical errors and contradictions.
http://www.freethoughtdebater.org/2011/12/30/bible-errors-and-contradictions/
Matt 19:26 says “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. “ Judges 1:19 says “And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” This is remarkable on its own, revealing a far-from-omnipotent tribal god being defeated by technology.
Mark 15:25 says “And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” John 19:14-16 says “…about the sixth hour…they cried out…crucify him….Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.”
2 Kings 24:8 says “Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months.” 2 Chronicles 36:9 says “Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem…”
2 Samuel 6:23 says “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death” 2 Samuel 21:8 says “But the king took…the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”
2 Samuel 8:3-4 says “David smote also Hadadezer…and took from him…seven hundred horsemen…” 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says “David smote Hadarezer…and took from him…seven thousand horsemen…” Note the spelling difference of Hadadezer.
1 Kings 4:26 says “And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots…” 2 Chronicles 9:25 says “And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots…”
2 Kings 25:8 says “And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month…Nebuzaradan…came…unto Jerusalem” Jeremiah 52:12 says “…in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month…came Nebuzaradan…into Jerusalem”
1 Samuel 31:4-6 says “…Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and…died with him. So Saul died…” 2 Samuel 21:12 says “…the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa.”
Lev 11:20-21: “All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.” Fowl do not go upon all fours.
Lev 11:6: “And the hare, because he cheweth the cud…” Hares do not chew the cud.
There are numerous more errors and contradictions.
This article also demolishes the issue of translation.
Are you willing to read the whole article? It took me 30 seconds to find these contradictions, goodness knows what I would find if I really tried. Come on this is not very good for a so called book inspired by god. You would think god would make sure some of this stuff did not contradict itself in the same book.
Anyway I think I have given you enough time. Have a good weekend.
What ? Now you compare him to Hitler ? :-) Come on ….
The Bible is right again, people have right to their opinions, specially when during their JW days, their curiosity and need to ask questions were repressed.
But I think you’ve got a wrong impression about quite some people here. Many of them were wronged indeed. Some of them are torn apart from their families, which I believe, totally impossible to justify (don’t give me the argument about “I came with sword between father and son ….”).
Of course we all are imperfect human beings. That’s why, there is no justification for a group of people declaring themselves above everyone else and destroying lives. Many people here still love God, their problem is against a human organization. If you ask me, this organization should do much better proclaiming a message of love.
You don’t have to agree with them, but at least, you should respect them for the pain some of them go through. Of course they’ll react to it.
The Bible is right again,
I can’t remember WHO was the first liar Remind me, is it Cain, Abraham, Rehab, Jesus, Jacob, Esther …
What I can remember for sure is that when the GB teaches his followers to be LIARS (for the kingdom interests amounting now to billions of dollars), they ask them to imitate the above Biblical figures especially Jesus and Rehab!!!
Help me to know who was the 1st liar among the above mentioned dignitaries but NEVER tell me it is “The Serpent”!! (Genesis 3:1) . . . the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. . . vs (Revelation 12:9) . . .So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
DO YOU FIND ANY HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO VERSES?
The Bible is right again,
You urgently need to consult a psychiatrist
*** w12 11/1 p. 23 Is Religious Faith an Emotional Crutch? ***
Do not blame anybody, blame the GB, the cause of your “Emotional Crutch”. True, w12 6/15 p. 18 par. 16 acknowledges “many people believe that religion contributes to or causes conflict. An increasingly vocal and militant group of Western intellectuals is calling for the end of religion’s influence on society”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w12+6%2F15+p.+18+par.+16
The Bible is Right Again,
God is not disciplining me. In my opinion he doesn’t exist. He is a remnant of a Bronze Age people nicking the idea of one god from the Egyptians. Through happenstance, this god has been blown out of all proportions into an omniscient and omnipotent deity that has always existed. An infinite god.
Can we still learn from the bible? Absolutely. There is some good advice in there. I still retain a great deal of respect for Jesus and some of his teachings.
Your presumption that all of us still believe in your God shows that you have no idea how very out of touch you are.
I don’t give a fig for your judgement. Your religion can label me and slander me and infringe my human rights. But it can never steal my pride in my humanity. I am free.
Your continual slander and obvious lack of knowledge about the bible, science and apostasy act as an exemplar of how you people are.
If you want to be all you can be, then educate yourself. All the knowledge is out there, and most of it is free. Go read up on Geology, Archaeology, Evolution and get some facts for you to ponder. Your reliance on the rumblings of the WTBTS have served you ill.
I do not wish to insult any who still believe. I merely wanted to point out to this charming individual that not all “diners with demons” still believe in demons, or any spirit.
You will notice, I hope, that I have attempted to converse with you politely, yet frankly.
Why don’t you make a real difference and research the information on this and other sites? Be an agent for change in your religion. Share what you discover. Be more like Jesus, and consider that he expressed the folly of judging others without first considering ones own faults.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
and yet it wasn’t banned… May I ask what religion you are now? If JW’s don’t have the truth then who does, you Cedar? Someone must? I bet your not associated with another group of Christians besides those who similarly hate JW’s thus proving your apostate status as mentioned in the bible. Remember Jesus was hated by a group whose only goal was to disprove him, sound familiar seeing as your only goal in life is to disprove JW’s that doesn’t seem like a quest for truth now does it. If you think it’s wrong go ahead and point to the truth as opposed to only disagreeing. Jehovah’s Witnesses can answer questions with nothing more than a bible, any bible for that matter and any translation, there’s no need for a Watchtower or even a website although it helps promote bible education it isn’t necessary to teach. Name another group of people that puts so much emphasis on following the bible. You can’t.
I agree Jeremy – you are absolutely right! Only Jehovah’s Witnesses have the TRUTH and God will murder everyone that does not interpret the Bible in a Jeremy JW way. Too right! Who but an idiot would doubt that Abraham and Isaac will be resurrected in San Diego in 1925?
Who could doubt that the 8 controlling old farts in New York, who call themselves the Governing Body are the very same ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24? They tell us they are, and they are God’s appointees so they must be right!
Everybody with any sense must know that Jehovah approved of Christmas celebrations before 1925, then he changed his mind and decided to murder at Armageddon anyone who so much as pulls a cracker!
And JWs have the TRUTH on blood transfusion. Is there a single Book in the Bible that does not make it clear that until 1945 Jehovah did not give toss about blood transfusion, no matter the dietary stuff in the Torah? There are no end of verses to PROVE that Jehovah, post 1945 would murder at Armageddon anyone who has a blood transfusion. What’s more there are other Biblical verses that make it absolutely clear that in the 21st century Jehovah is OK with the receipt of blood fractions but will murder at Armageddon anyone who donates the blood from which the fractions are taken.
Yes, Jeremy, we Faithful JWs have THE TRUTH! Let us not worry about those stupid Satanic apostates who think they know better. Jehovah will murder the lot of them when Armageddon really comes….in 1975!
The Bible is right again,
You say you know “the truth hurts ….”! Yes, it does and the Watchtower says it does not bring PEACE but SWORD!!
Yes, the truth hurts …. How do you feel about this “TRAGIC TRUTH”: JEHOVAH RAISES UP CALAMITY AGAINST HIS ANOINTED (2 Samuel 11:1–20:26)
“Here I am raising up against you calamity out of your own house,” Jehovah says to David, “and I will take your wives under your own eyes and give them to your fellowman, and he will certainly lie down with your wives under the eyes of this sun.” (2 Samuel 12:11) What is the reason for this pronouncement? It is David’s sin with Bath-sheba. Though repentant David is forgiven, he is not spared the consequences of his sin.
First the child that Bath-sheba gives birth to dies. Then David’s virgin daughter Tamar is raped by her half brother Amnon. Her full brother Absalom murders Amnon in revenge. Absalom conspires against his own father and proclaims himself king in Hebron. David is forced to flee Jerusalem. Absalom has relations with ten of his father’s concubines left behind to take care of the house. David returns to his kingship only after Absalom is killed. A revolt by the Benjaminite Sheba ends in Sheba’s death. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005365?q=JEHOVAH+RAISES+UP+CALAMITY+AGAINST+HIS+ANOINTED&p=par)
The Bible is right again,”the truth hurts ….”!
Jeremy,
You say “Jehovah’s Witnesses can answer questions with nothing more than a bible..”! You are TOTALLY wrong. They use the Koran, too.(Ref: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002094?q=Koran+refers&p=par)
The Koran refers to the miraculous birth of Jesus at Surah 19 (Mary). It says: “We sent to [Mary] Our spirit in the semblance of a full-grown man. And when she saw him she said: ‘May the Merciful defend me from you! If you fear the Lord, leave me and go your way.’ ‘I am the messenger of your Lord,’ he replied, ‘and have come to give you a holy son.’ ‘How shall I bear a child,’ she answered, ‘when I am a virgin, untouched by man?’ ‘Such is the will of your Lord,’ he replied. ‘That is no difficult thing for Him. “He shall be a sign to mankind,” says the Lord, “and a blessing from Ourself. This is Our decree.”’”
Jeremy,
Why does somebody have to have “the truth”. I would say truth is often how you want to see it and interpret it, especially in groups that are told what to think and where there is high control. Have you looked at what high control groups do. It will no doubt sound very familiar and “true”. Perhaps all Cedars is doing is helping people to be released.
High Control groups.
1. Regulate individual’s physical reality
2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates
3. When, how and with whom the member has sex
4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles
5. Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep
7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence
8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time
9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet
10. Permission required for major decisions
11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors
12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative
13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
14. Impose rigid rules and regulations
PS
This is how high control groups operate in terms of “truth” and thought control, (see below). Does it sound familiar? In a healthy environment surely, a person is allowed to think, research and discover for themselves, to believe or not to believe, don’t you think?
1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
Jeremy, I like some questions you raised about the truth. I wrote before in this thread that personally, several aspects of JW’s impress me, if those things are come from sincere intentions. There are a number of people who are sincere.
I must say, and I hope you don’t get offended, the organization never seems to get it right. Unless all these proves you read on the net, they seem to make statements in favor of Hitler in the past, and there are all these failed prophecies, etc. If you had a chance to read “Crisis of Conscience” you would be very negatively surprized.
Yet, there are all these publishers who come to my door on a rainy morning just for me … I am not sure if all of them are doing it really in the spirit of this altruistic concern for saving people, but no matter where it stands, for those who really are sincere, I’m blown away by them.
I did this before, and I know how difficult it is.
However, the way the organization treats people, it’s another thing. Even now, people still talk in Kingdom Halls about the poor brothers and sisters in Malawi but this was not something they had to go through. Then at the same time the Malawi brothers were killed for refusing buying material in support of the single party of the country, the Mexican brothers could bribe officials for avoiding the military service.
What really impresses me is those Mexican brothers who raised the issue back then, because they had a conscience. If I have good feelings about any JW, it’s because of such people, who try to show sincerity and some of them are clever enough to stay out of mind control. If their JW beliefs achieved this, it’s awesome. But … know that there are many wonderful people, no matter what, who aren’t JW as well. For me the first sign of truth is someone’s honesty and kindness.
But, I feel that we need to see things with neutrality. I think we are all equal in front of the challenge of finding a sense and a purpose to our lives. When we are born, all we got is our naked body, and then, the air and basic natural dispositions to survive. We weren’t born with a bible in hands, and note that for some people, it’ll be a long while if they see any bible at all, set apart if they will have a chance to read and UNDERSTAND it – it’s a long, long way. We all born at equal distance from the means of survival, but if the bible is one and only truth, we are not equal towards that.
I try to find truth in those elements that are granted to all human beings : Our mind, our hearts, our sense of logical thinking, our conscience. Then we all start our individual routes in life which shape all our thinking, emotions, view to life … My conviction is, if someone really cares about finding this “truth”, a sense and purpose to our existence, I think he/she will get closer to it.
But if you are a totally fair JW, you must not be shocked if one of your brothers take a moment to go and read Tao-te-Ching, to see what is said there. Don’t forget that the place you were born has a tremendous influence on everything that shapes your thinking. So each one of us have a partial view of the picture.
You can’t say, without a neutral consideration of everything out there, that Bible is the ONLY truth. The Bible we hold in hands is a result of a decision made much later than Jesus’ life, so that a canon was created. Some guys decided which books were inspired and which not. So if you don’t find books like First and Second Maccabees, because someone, a human being, decided it wasn’t inspired (and basically there are several such canons in existance). Also, dead sea scrolls findings show quite some errors and deviations in the biblical text. Yet some are so keen to take bible words literally. Did you know about Enuma Elish ? the ancient Babylonian creation account which seems to have common points with genesis, yet it is said to date older ? And many other traditional texts all talking about the creation, the flood, etc ? Some of them are as ancient as the bible.
So does this mean that the Bible has no value ? I think the Bible does contain a message important for us. However, when you say who has the knowledge of the truth and what really is truth, one’s task to find it is much broader than one would think. Every honest question is fair to ask and no one should be repressed for asking them. I think if one really wants to find some truth, eventually they get steered TOWARDS it, I say towards because I doubt if our human minds are capable to knowing it all.
Let’s be honest. God’s existence or non existence is not a scientific proof, but ONLY a conviction. For us, it’s a deduction from things we see in this world. I have to say I find the evolution totally OK to admit, and this doesn’t exclude the existence of God. Only that some people, in light of the evolution theory, came to the conclusion that God wasn’t needed to this phenomenon to develop. No one still found how this all started … Where this energy came from ?
Unfortunately, despite the fruits of truth I see with a number of JW’s, I also see a lot of extremely disturbing sides and this, from the beginning, and mainly on how this group of brotherhood was “managed”. It’s a real pity, because it could have been different.
I think the pure moment of truth is when someone offers a sincere prayer, does a good action for another human being, and reflects or gather with others in sincere search for this truth. Maybe this is all JW’s should aim for. All the rest is fuzzy and conditioned by lots of things.
Cheers
Jeremy, I shall repeat the question that Pilate asked Jesus, what is truth?
Your “truth” is not my “truth”
Here is my definition of truth. Truth is a fact that can be proven either through experiment or observation. Truth should be able to withstand the scientific method.
Your truth is whatever a book written by a bunch of bearded goat herders says. Further, your truth is specifically how a group of 8 unelected leaders interpret this book written by a bunch of bearded goat herders.
Because your bible says it’s from God, then it must be from God. Because the bible says there was a flood, then there was a flood. There is no evidence for a world wide flood at the time of the mythical biblical flood. Zero. Zip. Nada.
So, who has the truth?
There is no objective evidence for any of the truths that you cling to.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Hey Excelsior, I hope you’re doing fine.
Just wanted to add a viewpoint about the proven nature of what truth is : I think all we can prove is truth but we can’t prove everything that is truth. In some cases, truth can be progressive and in some cases, there are truths we’ll never be able to prove.
I think of a dogwhistle, which would make us believe of a silly device seemingly having supernatural powers on dogs. When we were able to establish scientifically that we actually can’t hear everything that IS out there. Also, we live in sort of a virtual reality, a portion of the reality our limited senses can capture.
So I think, as humanity, we have access to such a tiny bit of the secrets and truths of the universe. In that sense, I come to think that a conclusion as to existence or non existence of God couldn’t be reached through our traditional understanding of provable and repeatable science.
Cheers
Absolutely right! But note that even celebrity atheists will go along with that.
In a debate with Tony Blair Christopher Hitchens opened with the remark that disproving the existence of a God or Gods is impossible and Richard Dawkins’ book ‘The God Delusion’ has a chapter entitled ‘Why there almost certainly isn’t a God.’
In the humility before the unknown stakes it seems that atheists are ahead of the theists.
At the hideous arrogance end of the scale, as we know, are outfits like the JWs, whose self appointed and self righteous bosses label their every little bit of writing and every pronouncement as THE TRUTH.
JB, I was inactive due to the fact I’d participated in wordly things. Few yrs later, life felt out of loop. When I’d decided to attend, and felt as if I was an eye sore to my spiritual brothers and sisters, being aware the nobody in this world is perfect, it just motivated me to improve spiritually. One important thing that helped me thru the negative thoughts about how I felt for some brothers and sisters when I returned, was pouring my thoughts, feelings, and wishes thru prayer. It’s a different story now. Preaching, took me a while do to the fact that I still felt as if I was not a good image. But, it’s different now. Everything takes time if you really want the good things. I was Warned to stayed out of sites like this, but I couldn’t helped myself to read this sad negative thoughts of few. I hope the best for you.
Thanks, Janice, for your hopes for us. Of course, it would do none of us any good to have our lives controlled by a group of self appointed control freaks in New York State, who claim, with zero evidence, to be ‘The Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24.
Incidentally, Janice, do you have any evidence to connect the JW Gov. Bod. with the F. and D. Slave? You realise,of course, that without evidence the entire authority and credibility of your sect’s bosses collapses at a stroke.
I note you use the term ‘worldly’. This is all part of your group’s efforts to pretend to be somehow separate from the rest of us. JWdom is part of the world. As simply one of several late 19th century Adventist breakaway sects, JWdom is an integral part, albeit a singularly miserable part, of Christendom.
I do not know which parts of the world you ventured into in your years outside the Kingdom Hall, but, assuming you are now back in the WT fold, you are still as ‘worldly’ as you ever were or will be.
You have posted a range of disconnected Bible quotes on here which tell us little beyond the fact that you have picked up Kingdom Hall habits. Perhaps you could tell us why you have gone back to a sect whose track record consists of nothing more than duff prophecy, deaths through its flip flopping blood edicts, protection of pedophiles, broken families through shunning and nightmares about an Armageddon that never happens.
Why, exactly, are you so keen on looking forward to the day when your God murders the greater part of your fellow humans? Do you have any evidence for the JW Gov’ Bod.’s claim that they are the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’?
Hi Jenice, I respect you for taking your life in hands and taking the necessary steps towards your objectives for a better spiritual balance. No matter who says what, you are the only person to decide about your spiritual path.
I had a similar experience. For years, I didn’t really care too much about spiritual subjects, then as things happen, the experience made me reconsider things in life. I was disfellowshipped, and actually my experience proves to me that the elders will never have the same view of things Jehovah can have. But really, I have no resentment. I also think that human errors are quite understandable and if we don’t forgive, how can we ask for forgiveness ?
Everything I say here is my personal opinion, I am really not trying to push my ideas upon you.
When I realized my need to get closer to God, I first thought about the place where I have always been since my birth : The Kingdom Hall. But, after many years, I wondered how things are in general with JW’s. Then I started to read about things that made me wonder … Now I quite often attend the meetings, read the publications, and unfortunately, I see for myself that some of the concerns expressed on different sites are real issues.
IMHO, there is a way to see things regarding anti-JW claims. There are indeed people who will use the internet to spit out hatred about anything just to get things out of their chest. Some of such people will just make accusations without any substantial material. I think brothers are right warning you about those because it’s a horrible waste of time reading such stuff :-)
But, I personally don’t see an issue giving attention to any claim, if you see that the person advancing it tries to bring up a balanced, and most of all, documented purposes. I’m quite convinced that the Truth will not triumph only because we discard anything that question it, so we shouldn’t be afraid to debate. So I have been reading anything that I come across, if it presents some serious intention. I must say, I’m overwhelmed with this. Not only some issues are very thoroughly documented, but also my “test” via my own experience and observations seem to prove that. This alone prevents me from reembracing the JW organization right now.
Another point I saw when I restarted researching was the experience of so many people in the organization (or their non JW relatives) that were hurt by, let’s say, quite unscriptural rules and actions upon them or impacting them. If I am a JW again, I woulnd’t able to talk to one of these people, because I wouldn’t know what to say.
My biggest issue is, if I am a JW and someone wants to talk about these difficult subjects, what I would do ? Tell them to shut up ? So this is why, as long as this difficult, documented issues don’t have an answer, how can I be a JW ? So my issue is well beyond some brothers who might offend me at some point. I actually really like so many folks (including a part of my family), but with me, the issue seems to be with the organization in a more generic sense. This is why I would never critisize someone for being a JW, if this helps them to feel more fulfilled spiritually. But I must say, I have some anxiety for them.
I also wish you best Jenice, and as I said, I definitely respect your way for finding back spirituality.
If someone feels ‘spiritually fulfilled’ by looking forward to the day of Armageddon when the greater part of humanity will be murdered for the crime of not obeying the diktats of a bunch of self appointed old control freaks in New York State, then there is something tragically wrong. Criticism or no, such a deranged and warped mindset needs treatment, if nothing else via that demon of the Watchtower outfit, education.
Of course the WT, Kingdom Hall network, worldwide JW community has absolutely nothing to do with any God that might exist. It will be a great day for humanity when there is no further need for destructive groups like the Ku Klux Klan, Jehovah’s Witnesses, The Lord’s Resistance Army, Westboro Baptists and Al Quaedr. That some folk may, indeed do, feel ‘spiritually fulfilled’ through membership of these disgusting organisations is nothing short of tragic.
Do Not feel sorry for me, Cedar’s followers.
I am VERY content with what I believe.
Because the things that are happening in this world, especially what’s going on this website (promoting HATE), it’s stated in the Bible:
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured* to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
When I was a kid, Janice Weg, I was taken in by all this imminent End Times, more wars, earthquakes etc. that formed the regular Kingdom Hall offering.
Later study revealed how imminent End Times types litter the history of the Abrahamic religions. JWs are simply, A N Other little outfit in a long history of apocalyptic doomsters.
Another set of facts you will want to ignore, Janice Weg, is that in many respects life continues to improve. Not only are most societies considerably less violent and better fed, but the improved understanding of geophysical activity makes for better defence and warnings against natural disasters. And earthquakes and floods, anyway, are no more prevalent now that hitherto.
I sincerely hope, Janice Weg, that one day you will decide to spend your life doing something more constructive that working, unrewarded, to augment the capital value of a global property and publishing corporation based in New York State whose contribution to humanity has been entirely negative.
That anyone should glory in a record of duff prophecy, split families through shunning, unnecessary deaths through refusal of blood transfusion, pedophile protection and stunted lives through sneering at education is to be greatly regretted.
A string of Kingdom Hall style disconnected Bible quotes, can do nothing to redeem the JWs’ abysmal record of deceit and cruelty.
Best wishes. I hope, Janice Weg, that you recover someday.
Far from promoting hate, Janice Weg, this site can work as a lifeline for those still trapped inside a cult which espouses hate. JWs are led to believe they are not part of the world, that the world (i.e. all parts of it not subject to control by the JW bosses) is hateful and deserves to be destroyed. If that is not a message of hate, I do not know what is.
Janice Weg; whether you like it or not, you are part of the world (you are not, after all, a visitor from Mars or Jupiter). JWdom is part of the world. It is one of many little sects that have evolved from Western Protestantism and thus part of Christendom. It is utterly reliant on all the goods and services provided by the rest of the world’s community.
Please explain, Janice Weg, why you subscribe to this illogical, unrealistic and utterly ridiculous notion that JWs are somehow separate from, and superior to the world. By any assessment they are an integral, albeit rather obnoxious, part of it.
Why, Janice Weg, is your late 19th century Adventist spinoff sect, not acknowledge by you as a part of Christendom? You might as well say that your stomach is not part of your body.
An answer would be more use that a string of Kingdom Hall style disconnected Bible bits.
Janice Weg – some answers are in order.
1.Why do you hate all the world beyond the JW outfit, to the extent you look forward to the day that your Jehovah monster murders us all?
2. Why do you trust the Bible?
3. Why do you trust the Biblical interpretations of a New York based outfit whose prophecies, since its foundation, have all been confounded?
4. Why do you believe that the Gov. Bod. of the Watchtower Society is the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24, despite the complete lack of evidence?
5. WHy do you believe that Jehovah was OK with blood transfusions before 1945?
6. Why do you believe that Jehovah has changed his mind on blood fractions but will murder at Armageddon anyone donating the blood from which the fractions are taken?
I do not expect answers. I know there are none. A string of Bible quotes is not an answer. I simply wish to drum into your skull the utter impossibility of being both a rational and caring person, and at the same time a follower of a bunch of self appointed control freaks in New York State whose track record is one of lies, deceit, misery, pedophile protection and unnecessary death.
JB, somehow I can’t seem to stop visiting this site just to read replies, but what you feeling was discuss in tooday’s meeting, download Watchtower 15 Nov. 2013 (study article) page 21. You are very right about that oneself is to choose their paths in life. Also, true about elders not being perfect, but do you know that when they give you advices, or if their’s an issue that needs to be corrected they Use the Holy Scriptures. You also have to remember that even within the congeration, there are people that can be of bad influence. Prayer get you thru everything Positive. In my opinion, and forgive me if I’m wrong, but by you researching and questioning the opposite was your trap. I wish you can hand over God your feelings and ask for guidance. Don’t stay angry, you seem to be a good person.
Janice Weg – you are doing the campaign to rid the world of the JWs a great service. May I commend you!
You fail to answer questions. You address none of the issues raised, and you imagine that a string of disconnected Bible quotes is a substitute for an answer!
Any visitors to this site, curious about the JWs will see the inchoate and meaningless outpourings of a true believer and conclude that they do not want anything to do with such an organisation.
If you do have any answers to the questions posed , however, we would like to read them. And I do hope you recover from that dismal mindset where you imagine you are not of the world, not a part of Christendom and that all your fellow humans, who are not in thrall to a bunch of money grabbing control freaks in New York State, will soon be murdered by your fantasy Jehovah monster.
Jenice Weg, you need to stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you and what the Watchtower says is “angry” or “hateful”. We could easily say the same thing about you. You tell JB to stop being angry yet I can’t detect anything JB has said so far that is “angry” but instead actually reflects balanced and fair discussion. Most of the comments here reflect open-minded discussion rather than hateful rhetoric.
Is it really because of the simplistic Watchtower excuse that “Satan” is deceiving us, or are there some very real and logical reasons why people have a problem with the Watchtower Society and its policies? You’ve read the articles, so can you please logically and coherently prove any of the statements here wrong without a lengthy Bible quote? Anyone can quote from the Bible and they tend to have absolutely no bearing on the topic being discussed.
Jenice weg
You sound like a decent person. As you know the doctrine changes constantly. In 1968 when I was a JW I was saying the same things as you. I have not wasted my life in a dependency relationship with the Watchtower. I left and my life has been rich ever since. I no longer have to be concerned with what the Watchtower says this week. I do not have to be bothered whether an Elder is not acting according to the Watchtower. I do not have to be bothered with what Elder’s wives are wearing this week or if one of them said something about a “weak” person. Its all daft stuff and nothing to do with the Bible. Just think if they are wrong, you will have wasted your life. Why hang around with this group if there are so many things that are not right. There are many other groups that claim they use the bible and they have a cleaner track record that this lot. I hope you wake up soon and start to have a Watchtower free life, its much healthier, mentally physically and emotionally. There is a lot of help out there for you now. You do not need to be dependant upon the Watchtower for how you think, feel or indeed who you are allowed to love. Have a lovely day!
Hi Jenice weg
You seem like a decent person. The fact they you keep coming back and now admitting that you are not totally happy with everything is a healthy sign.
I am not sure why you think the Elders only use the bible to dictate how you should act. Have you listened to Cedars latest video about Tony from the GB?
I am also not a follower of Cedars. I am a person who thinks for themselves and I have had a lifetime of experience and learning and not just from one organisation or book, so if Cedars said something I disagreed with I would be free to say. I would not have to cover it up on fear of being disfellowshipped. My family would not be taken from me for thinking a different thought. A follower of the Watchtower does not have that freedom. I hope you carry on questioning and you begin to think for yourself. There is nothing to fear. Your life will be much better for being released from the burden of the Watchtower.
Haha, Judas?! Your’s is one of the best sites around, and I encourage many to come check out your posts, they are excellent.
I usually quickly scan over the nasty and negative comments from JW supporters. They just confirm what I already know – bunch of judgmental hypocrites trying to silence anyone with a differing opinion. It would be ok if they were correct, but they’re hokey religion has been exposed for the fraud it is. The fact that they protect child molesters is enough for me to not want anything to do with them.
Thank you Jenice, I appreciate your comments. I actually would like to confirm that I’m really not angry.
Honestly, I wish there was a platform where any JW’s and ex-/non-JW’s could debate on different issues and ideas, with mutual respect.
I’m quite sad to see the way many religious organizations, and also Watchtower progress quite different than, for instance, Scientific community.
Scientists seek for proves and they look out for them, they try to understand natural laws. While they do this, they see others as colleagues, instead of rivals. They may critisize and disagree with eachother, but often one uses the findings of another and builds up. Sometimes two people make the same discovery at nearly the same time. This is so much different than many religious organizations where many are in race of declaring their “God chosen”ness, or that they are anointed, closer to God than anyone else. And then the judgements start … I believe in “new light”, but in my mind, it’s much different than ONE entity that keeps interpreting differently a piece of text over time, because the previous light didn’t work out. To me, the way a community deals with people counts much more than a prophetic calculation about their debuts.
I think this is how, while scientists split atoms today, so to speak, religous leaders still teach that the earth was created in 6 days. To me, such narrow mindedness is the biggest enemy of Biblical knowledge.
I agree that there are ones on the site who would go “a ha here is a JW” and start shooting :-) In exchange, some JW’s say quite harsh things against people here. But we shouldn’t be afraid of debating ! When Satan tempted Jesus, it’s because he thought, maybe, he would have a chance to win him. Otherwise, why would he tried ? And Jesus, DID give Satan answers, he didn’t just say “go away, I’m not allowed to listen to you”. Jesus sure knew what he was talking about, so why should he be unsecure ?
I really think this lack of fair debate, where ideas count more than who the people are, is a real pity.
Jenice I concur, you seem to be a person with good intentions. I sincerely hope Jehovah keeps giving you His blessing so that you have a solid relationship with Him.
Relationship with Jehovah? This sounds like latterday evangelical talk. I cannot see how it can make any sense. I have never been chatted up by a God. I have only ever read about them in books. I know people have been known to send presents and cards to soap characters, but at least there is an ongoing story. God’s message to mankind stopped c. 2000 years ago, (or for Muslims c. 1400 years ago). There is no consensus on who the God of Abraham is anyway, so a ‘relationship’ could be with a number of characters – the Trinitarian Bible God who appointed the Pope, the Unitarian one who speaks to us via the Watchtower, or Allah who dictated the Koran to Mahomet via the Angel Gabriel. That’s just a start. I have no idea what is going on when people talk about a ‘relationship’ with a God. Perhaps JB could explain.
“Do You Feel That You Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?
“No. Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “”there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.—John 5:22, 27.”
JW.org.
This is why people must consider HOW spin is so clever. The more accurate and less misleading question should be:
“Do You Feel That You Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved today?”
This is the only question that concerns THIS generation! The spin is that past generations are part of the answer. Actually when they imply that those who will be saved will ‘come to serve’ God, they mean ‘become Jehovah’s Witnesses,’ they are actually answering the above question, “YES”!
Then comes the statement of mock-humility, ‘it is Jehovah who judges…who are we to do that!’
There are some canny spin-doctors that are clearly giving a misleading answer.
Frank
Well said, JB. This is pretty much where I am at presently, as well.
@ Rowland Nelken,
I think it is stupid. To have relationship with an OBJECT or a PERSONALITY you can’t see or talk you is a kind of mental disease we need to recognize!! Pray is to talk to it, and it never respond:
(Exodus 33:20-23) . . .And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” 21 And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. 22 And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. 23 After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.”
SOUND STUPID!!!
Rowland, Hakizamana,
It’s only about “beliefs”. To me, a “relationship” means a honest research for a meaning and if we choose to accept there is a God, to acknowledge him. I also think the way we live our lives and our acts are part of this “relationship”.
As I mentioned before, God’s existence or non existence has no scientific proof. We all have the same world around us and I think we just look at it from different angles, reaching to varying conclusions as for the existence of God.
We must admit though, our abilities are way below to understand the universe, etc – so claiming anything about it, IMHO, would be quite an arrogance. This is why, we can only “believe”.
I’m not stating this as something everyone should agree. It’s only my own feelings and beliefs.
Therefore ‘relationship’ is a misleading word.
I would concur re. human ignorance. To discount the possibility, absolutely, of a God’s existence is impossible.
It is only sensible, however, to dismiss as anything more than of literary, historical and psychological interest, the Gods of the Bible and Koran, or, indeed, any other anthropomorphic Gods thus far dreamed up.