In recent years, videos have become integral to the way Jehovah’s Witnesses receive information from their leaders the Governing Body, or “faithful slave.”
Nowhere is the explosion in the use of visual media more apparent than at Watchtower’s annual regional conventions, at which Witnesses now receive a barrage of well over 50 highly-polished, meticulously produced videos over three days.
Ever since Watchtower got serious about converting conventions into video propaganda marathons, organization insiders – including concerned elders and circuit overseers – have been leaking the video material to activists like myself in early summer, just before the convention season is due to start.
They have done this, at great risk of being discovered and punished, in the hope that an early warning of the gruesome content soon to be unleashed will help thinking Witnesses and relatives of devout believers to brace themselves for the onslaught of manipulation, guilt-tripping and fear-mongering in store.
For example, in 2016 I was able to produce a nine-part series of videos titled the Worst Convention Ever drawing attention to some of the more alarming visual specimens from the “Remain Loyal to Jehovah” regional convention. Among the more disturbing content was a trilogy of videos reminding JW parents of the need to shun their disfellowshipped children, and even a drama depicting a group of Witnesses huddled in a basement during the Great Tribulation, awaiting persecution by authorities under Satan’s control.
The 2017 “Don’t Give Up!” convention was not quite as relentless in its stomach-churning awfulness, but still managed to include material attacking homosexuality, denying Watchtower’s false predictions related to 1975, and even suggesting that children have a role to play in preventing their own molestation.
The 2018 “Be Courageous” convention program hasn’t even been released on JW.org yet, but months before the first events are due to start we already have reason to expect similarly jaw-dropping material thanks to an unprecedented leak of unfinished convention video files to JWsurvey.org, complete with timers and greenscreen.
Six videos have been sent to JWsurvey by a Watchtower insider, apparently intended for a symposium designed to remind Witnesses of the need to show courage. Without being able to consult the program, it is unclear precisely which talk these videos are intended for, or what the overall theme is, but based on the numbering of the videos (compared with the numbering from previous years) I would guess that they are due to be shown on the Friday afternoon. (The videos are numbered 44 to 49, and in the 2017 convention video similar numbers were allotted to the Friday symposium featuring the 1975 denial video.)
I have taken the liberty of making a 28-minute YouTube rebuttal to three of the six videos, which you can see here…
…but for a more comprehensive review of all six leaked videos, fasten your seatbelts and get ready for another voyage into Watchtower’s twisted twilight zone of cringe-inducing cultiness!
I have embedded the material below (which is now hosted on Russia’s “Rutube” video-hosting platform) for your convenience.
Message 1: “Worldly” workmates may bully you into getting politically involved
We’ve all been in that situation. We’re going about our own business at work when suddenly we’re ambushed by a colleague demanding we join a protest or sign a petition against a piece of legislation that threatens the company with cutbacks and layoffs. After politely declining, the conversation soon escalates to the point where we are told that our position at the company “is under serious consideration depending on the outcome of this discussion.”
Actually, if I’m being completely honest, I’ve never been in this situation and I’ve never heard of any friends or relatives being in this situation either. That’s not to say it’s impossible for such a thing to happen, but at the very least it is extremely unlikely that someone would be jettisoned from their work simply for refusing to take sides politically. In some countries, employment laws even prohibit such behavior. In the United Kingdom, companies could be pursued through a tribunal on grounds of unfair dismissal for firing an employee based on religious or political opinions.
But none of this has stopped Watchtower from devoting considerable time and resources to exploring this specific scenario in full HD by telling us the fictional story of Mark O’Brien – a Jehovah’s Witness who works in a factory that looks suspiciously like a Bethel workshop.
Watchtower needs to make Witnesses fearful and paranoid about Satan’s world by convincing them that “worldly” people are thuggish, threatening and unyielding (unlike Jehovah’s organization, which separates people from their families for disagreeing with the leaders), and the story of Mark, dreamt up by their Writing Department, well serves this purpose.
It is unclear whether Mark was sacked and exposed to financial peril as a result of not putting a squiggle on a piece of paper, but his elders applaud his heroics regardless. His is a much-needed story of “courage” – or example of unswerving loyalty to Witness teachings – that will provide an invaluable shot in the arm to a congregation apparently “anxious about unstable world conditions.”
Message 2: Allies of the LGBTQ community are hostile and confrontational
In recent years, Watchtower has grown increasingly vocal about its homophobic stance. We have seen a string of children’s cartoons, worksheets and magazine articles, all geared toward reminding Witnesses that it is their right – indeed, duty – to object to other people’s relationships if these relationships are same sex.
Governing Body member Anthony Morris III has gone so far as to blame gay people for child sex abuse, and has even tried to expose them as architects of a global conspiracy to accentuate the male form.
As recently as last year’s “Don’t Give Up!” convention, the firepower of Watchtower’s video-making machine was turned on the LGBTQ community in the three-part drama “Remember the Wife of Lot.” After one of his daughters brings home a friend from work, Brian (the patriarch of the family) pounces on her passing mention of having lesbian parents by launching into an awkward, unconvincing refutation of homosexuality that seems to only succeed in making everyone want to exit the room as quickly as possible.
But it seems Watchtower still isn’t done with trying to make gay and lesbian people feel miserable. In the above video, “Sally” is shown being subjected to a public display of outrage and intimidation by a professed Christian woman who scorns her for failing to wear a rainbow-colored wristband in support of LGBTQ rights.
Having failed to persuade anyone that Jehovah’s Witnesses have the right to tell gays and lesbians whom they may or may not love, or how they may or may not express their love, an exasperated Watchtower has resorted to this shabby attempt at portraying allies of the LGBTQ community as sneering, hostile and confrontational – precisely the attitude that Watchtower itself exhibits against gays and lesbians through its publications.
This is shallow, overt propaganda the type of which Goebbels would have been proud. It makes no meaningful arguments. It puts forth no logical, rational reasons for opposing marriage equality. Rather, the makers shamelessly indulge in the tried and trusted method of bypassing the debate altogether by character assassinating their opponents. These are cheap, juvenile tactics unworthy of most teenagers, let alone an organization claiming the sole approval and guidance of the Creator of the universe.
Message 3: Witnesses who can’t stomach ambushing people with their beliefs need to “pray, hope in Jehovah, and act!”
In 2006, Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide participated in the distribution of a “Kingdom News” tract titled The End of False Religion Is Near!, the cover of which showed ominous storm clouds and lightning, strongly implying that all but members of the Jehovah’s Witness religion could anticipate violent, fiery annihilation from the heavens. I was a ministerial servant at the time of the tract’s release and recall participating enthusiastically, albeit somewhat nervously, in its circulation.
Of course, I couldn’t have known at the time how hypocritical the tract was. Part of its tirade against false religion included the following words (bold is mine):
In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men … will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6;9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?
Unquestionably, given how much we now know about the extent to which Watchtower has “tolerated” or covered up the sexual abuse of children over many decades, the same tract would need to be worded quite differently if released today!
Anyway, fast forward to 2018 and, despite its hypocrisy and sanctimonious message, Kingdom News no. 37 is unexpectedly celebrated in this video, which depicts “Sister Spencer” struggling with fear due to memories of an unpleasant encounter during the 2006 campaign.
Again, “worldly” people are depicted as fearsome and threatening. An angry householder confronts Sister Spencer, who has hastily given him the tract before retreating from his doorstep.
“Hey, what’s this about?” the man yells after her. “Are you trying to tell me that my religion is false and yours is true? Get off my property! You call back again, I’m gonna set my dog on you!” The dog barks and snarls in confirmation of this threat.
Rather than answer the question, Sister Spencer and her partner huddle together, staggering down the driveway as though they are fleeing a war zone. Perhaps they are dumbfounded by the frenzy of shouting and Alsatian teeth, or perhaps there is just no easy way to tell a total stranger: “Yes, I believe that if you don’t abandon your religious beliefs and embrace mine, you are worthy of annihilation at Armageddon. Have a nice day!”
More than a decade later, Sister Spencer continues to struggle with fear due to this incident. Fortunately, her elders visit and give her the advice she needs. Next time she struggles with apprehension at the prospect of ambushing people she doesn’t know with a message that amounts to “believe as I do, or be killed,” she must mutter the mantra “pray, hope in Jehovah, and act.” (Please take a moment to write that down if it seems too complicated.)
Message 4: Witnesses should obey their leaders even if the instructions don’t make sense
Back in 2013, myself and others were horrified to see the following words appear in the November 15, 2013 Watchtower, page 20:
Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith.
It is hard to conceive of more Orwellian, Jonestown-inducing ideology than this. Eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses were told that any instructions from Watchtower must be obeyed regardless of whether they can be logically justified!
Not long after this material was published, JWsurvey covered the story of how a Facebook experiment citing this wording had shockingly revealed that some Witnesses would be willing to take a pill if instructed to do so by the Governing Body. “With faith, I will take it,” said one of those who responded to the challenge. “Even if I perish Jehovah will remember me.”
Of all the shameful rhetoric to find its way into print in the organization’s publications in recent years, you would think Watchtower would be careful to gloss over these overtly cult-like instructions in particular, or at least not feature them prominently in a video to be displayed before millions of attendees at events to which the public are also invited.
But the Governing Body is evidently proud of being able to order Jehovah’s Witnesses to follow their every whim without any need for justification, even to the point of publicly gloating over their ability to control people to this obscene degree. Hence, in the above video, the quotation is gleefully mentioned in response to a story about a group of women resolving to go along with the instructions of elders despite misgivings on the part of at least one of them.
When members of a congregation are divided by their elders into North and South congregations, a sister named Kim takes it upon herself to try persuading her friend to resist being separated from members of her family who have been assigned to a different congregation than her. The upshot is that Kim ends up being reminded by a third, older sister, that – failing “extenuating circumstances” – it would be best to follow the direction of the elders without making a fuss.
Some who have seen this video in my YouTube rebuttal have commented that this seems a subtle means of normalizing the breaking up of families, with the organization awarding itself precedence over family ties. There could be something to this, although – speaking personally as someone whose family life is irreparably scarred by Watchtower shunning – I can’t say that having family members directed to attend a different place of worship is quite as distressing as them being manipulated to treat you as though you are dead.
The most disturbing thing about this video for me is the celebration of the Governing Body’s cult-like grip on the minds of believers, together with the way women are once again – as was the case in the 2017 Remember the Wife of Lot drama – portrayed as meddling, conniving, manipulative and demanding. The same kingdom hall scene could easily have worked if the trouble-maker in the conversation was a man. Instead, it once again falls to a woman to own the stereotype of plotting, bickering and complaining, while one of the men who control her life eavesdrops on the conversation, grinning slyly as her objections are quashed.
Message 5: Witness kids should get comfortable with the idea of mass slaughter at Armageddon
Family worship evenings are familiar to most who have been raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses. In my book, The Reluctant Apostate, I tell the story of how one such evening during my childhood resulted in my unexpected involvement in an “Amageddon drill.” My father persuaded me that the Great Tribulation was in progress and I was to run to my room and pack my things, because the family would be fleeing in the car to rendezvous with the rest of the congregation in Macclesfield Forest.
Needless to say, though for one fleeting moment Armageddon was a real, unfolding event, at least in my young mind (which is more than most Witnesses will ever be able to say), the whole thing was a ruse. My father had tricked me in an attempt to convince me to take the end of civilisation and annihilation of all non-Witnesses seriously.
Today, it seems Dad’s fear-mongering exercise was not so outlandish by Watchtower standards. The leaked convention videos include a depiction of a young boy visibly disturbed by Armageddon artwork being considered at a family worship evening to which an elder has been invited. The artwork, which features on page 229 of the God’s Kingdom Rules! book, shows either Jesus or Kenny Rogers riding to exact judgment on Satan’s hordes during God’s day of wrath.
Joking aside, this is extremely potent visual imagery to be thrusting in the faces of young children, but Watchtower apparently revels in requiring this of parents. The video shows the elder guest noticing how visibly rattled Brad is, and asking him what’s on his mind.
At this point in the video, the “Brad” in me is shouting at the screen: “Oh, I dunno Brother – maybe I’m just horrified at the thought of all my friends at school being mown down in an unfathomable bloodbath just because they don’t happen to share my religious views!”
Cleverly, though, Watchtower sidesteps this obvious question by changing it. Rather than have Brad recoiling at the incredible carnage that Armageddon represents, he is inexplicably eager to get involved in it himself.
“Will the brothers tell us how to fight the people who will be attacking us?” Brad asks, giving the elder an opportunity to reassure him with the account at 2 Chronicles chapter 20, in which the Israelites are asked to be spectators to the vanquishing of God’s enemies. The unfinished reenactment, complete with exposed greenscreen, shows God’s people filing past the corpses of the divinely executed.
“It was obvious that Brad’s courage was strengthened after reviewing this Bible account,” the elder later tells his colleagues, apparently glowing with pride at his teaching skills. But there is no reason for pride, either in the handling of Brad’s contrived, unrealistic question, or the Governing Body’s doomsday narrative. Millions of children will be subjected to this highly manipulative video propaganda that normalizes global genocide. It is one thing to relish such grisly, psychotic thoughts as an adult, but to gleefully thrust them on young minds is unforgivable.
Message 6: Witnesses can’t do anything without Jehovah’s help
The final video is arguably the least shocking, but there are still disturbing undertones that perfectly highlight the helpless, childlike state that is intrinsic to being a Witness.
Philip is a young Witness man who has been accepted to serve as an LDC construction volunteer – in other words, a free laborer for Watchtower’s many construction projects. After all, God may not “dwell in handmade temples” (Acts 17:24), but he sure does need a lot of stuff to be built for him in order to be adequately worshipped.
But there’s a problem. Philip is uncertain of his abilities, and frankly terrified about the assignment he’s been handed. He’s worried that he doesn’t have what it takes to fulfill his duties (even though a willingness to do hard, physical work for free is pretty much all that is required).
Enter Albert, Philip’s group overseer who kindly reassures him that, even though there’s no way he would ordinarily measure up to the task, he can do anything with assistance from God. “With Jehovah’s help, you can be courageous,” says Albert. “Go to work!”
I’m sure many in the convention audience will identify with Philip. Witness indoctrination creates a state of “learned helplessness” in which you become totally reliant on the organization; doubting your own abilities and fearful of what would happen to you if left to fend for yourself.
Only once you escape the Witness mindset do you fully grasp that you can be who you want to be, and do whatever you want to do, if you put your mind to it. As I add my concluding thoughts to this article, it should be noted that there is currently a red convertible sports car hurtling through our solar system on a trajectory that will take it through the asteroid belt. Why? Because humans had the grit, determination and self-belief to defy any who said it couldn’t be done, and made it happen.
A Reason for Optimism
As chilling as this leaked video propaganda may be, there is reason for optimism if you happen to be a thinking Witness, or former Witness, who despairs at the organization’s increasingly cult-like behavior and rhetoric.
Just think: we have access to videos that will be shown at this year’s convention months in advance – before the videos are even finished! This is only possible because there are awakened, conscientious individuals inside Watchtower, with privileged access to sensitive material, who are actively working with JWsurvey.org and other activists. Why are they doing this? Because they recognize that Watchtower is an abusive, controlling organization, and rather than leave in a blaze of glory they are doing what they can, while they can, from the inside.
Yes, it’s appalling to see how ignorant and narrow-minded Watchtower has become in its attitudes toward gay people. I believe many young Witnesses, in particular, are being prodded to reevaluate their beliefs in the face of such blatant bigotry, but this is small consolation if you are a closeted gay or lesbian person sat in the audience when those who would speak up for your rights are being portrayed as vile, shrieking monsters.
And yes, it’s never pleasant to be reminded of how controlling Watchtower is, or see the Governing Body celebrating the ease with which they can subject young minds to their doomsday fear-mongering.
But try to take heart in the knowledge that not everyone in the corridors of bethels around the world agrees with what the Governing Body is saying and doing. For years now there have been awakened operatives deeply entrenched in Watchtower who have been doing what they can to expose the lies, manipulation and abuse.
The Governing Body may be aghast that there are traitors in their midst, but they are only reaping what they have sown. You do not build a captive organization from which it is impossible to leave with dignity without trapping to your bosom those who don’t like you and will do whatever they can to quietly engineer your downfall.
With each leaked document or video, another crack emerges in Watchtower’s ironlike grip, rendering laughable their claims of universal loyalty and obedience. These are exciting times for those like myself who want to see the organization held to account for its cruelty – and not its bewildered, indoctrinated followers in far-flung lands.
On behalf of everyone at JWsurvey, I want to sincerely thank the individuals who have made these and other leaks available to us, despite great personal risks. They are the true heroes of our movement, and I am confident that many more Witnesses will break free from Watchtower’s mental bonds due to their heartwarming bravery.
Further reading:
Outstanding scoop! I am an exJW and a former Bethelite from Brazil, where I used to work as a translator and interpreter of members of the GB. I sent a message to you in your Messenger/Facebook inbox. Please, take a look!
I am so glad to be out of this irritating cult. Just yesterday a family group of very nice JWs invited me into my local pub for a pint. They were from the other side of the world. Just great guys. But my mind was saying what a waste of lives. For me, there is little sound argumentation in these videos, just obey, obey, obey. The slimey, false tone of voice every one of these ‘elders’ uses to portray calm reasonableness is actually creepy, fake, and above all irritating and boring.
No one talks like that! There is no passion, no fun, no humour. Walking dead people with pamphlets.
Yes, you just reminded me of a point I forgot to make – the absolutely irritating SMUGness of these guys.
It must take a hell of a lot of energy to suppress one’s emotions like that. Removing the passion from life is like taking the gasoline out of a car. It will be extremely quiet and risk-free, but it’s not going anywhere either.
Super article, Lloyd. Thank you.
The little “political neutrality” skit (i.e. ‘Don’t sign the workplace protest form’) reminded me of all the petty nonsense I was forced to do in school, i.e. Don’t stand for national anthem, don’t sing Xmas carols in the hallway with the other students, don’t accept a Valentine’s card from anyone. It just reinforces to me, what Bean Counters the jehovas witness leadership are, and how they try to mold their followers in their own silly image.
As for the admonition to obey the Spiritual Overlords, even if the directives don’t make sense, I think we can all agree that can be translated, “Drink the Koolaid when we tell you to.”
I agree though, it is heartening to sense the growing numbers of disenchanted insiders, hence all the leaks. Perhaps Watchturd needs their own “Plumbers”, like Nixon. Where’s Gordon Liddy when you need him? lol
That Doomsday illustration could easily double as an ISIS propaganda poster. lol
Their videos absolutely nauseate me….but this comment so far: did anyone notice in the first LGBTQ how downtrodden that ‘sister’ was, like she was amidst demons of hell? Clearly, she hated being surrounded by the the women, so she lied when she said, ‘it wasn’t the people,…..”. No, it’s not just the lifestyle, but an inner hatred for the individuals as well. And really, that is the goal of Watchtower, after all…
Yes, surely Watchturd can be described as a Cult of Hate.
Presided over by the hateful eight.
In all fairness we cannot expect any religious group that considers the Bible as the inherent word of God to accept homosexuality! Call it homophobic or not is going to change that fact! The Bible clearly condenms homosexuality! You cannot believe in the Bible as the inspired word of God and at the same time don’t take homosexuality as a sin! It can’t go both ways!!!
Yes. But that does not mean to look down on people. We are still supposed to love people. Jesus even ate with the so called lowly. He did not judge them or despise them. That is what christians forget. Leave it in God’s hands to judge. The religious leaders thought they had God’s blessing while he had already condemn then.
Luke 18:9-14 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Yelp – I think the above scripture and illustration sums it up pretty well.
The do not judge fallacy is another issue! One might not look down on people and being judgemental but you cannot be a Bible believer and not being uncomfortable with homosexuality as sin. Isn’t it true the Bible encourages to hate what is bad ( not the people but their bad actions)? Moreover, we should stop lying to ourselves in thinking we don’t judge others’ behaviors and attitudes . That’s exactly what we do by being critical thinkers. Even when we are criticizing watchtower on many valid points we are doing nothing else but judging!
Grow up. Watchtower controls other people’s lives. Homosexuals control their own lives and do not go around telling other people to be homosexual or condemn them to destruction for not being homosexuals. Stop saying silly things please.
Interestingly Gardy, there is a scripture that says god hates the “person” who loves violence…hence he hates the person, not the act itself of loving violence.
Hmmm!
Gardy, who is trying to have it both ways? I gather that most who comment here do NOT accept the bible as the word of God AND do NOT take homosexuality as a sin. You say a lot of silly things…unless YOU are the one who secretly wants to “go both ways”. ;)
Resister,
We might not agree on everything but we can be respectful of each other’s opinion. I am not trying to have it both way because my sexual orientation is clear and cannot be no other than heterosexual. However, I respect anybody life style as long he/she doesn’t try to force it on me. It goes without saying that I don’t try to have it both ways. My point is simple, you cannot force a Bible believer to accept homosexuality when the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. Moreover, I am not saying that anyone here believes in the Bible but we all have the freedom to practice or to not have a religion. There will always be people or religious groups that will reject homosexuality. We not in a single thought society or world!
OK. I get your point. Sorry for being such a dick. But you sort of came across as a JW apologist, and I can’t stand those guys. Sorry again. I get your point. Buy you need to see that we are not here ragging on watchtower simply for their stand on homosexuals. Their stand on homosexuals is just one of many, many issues against watchtower. Why focus on that one thing? Just reread the article.
Resister
An interesting pseudonym you chose, “Resister.” Was it because of or in honor of a biblical character? But to my writing point.
Not everyone that comments here rejects the Bible as the word of God. Me, myself, and I, along with many other commenters here accept it as God’s word while accepting God as the person the Bible claims he is. Ditto about Christ.
But even if most who comment here do not believe in the Bible, as you suggest, the idea that those commenters are atheists or practice a faith opposed to Christianity does not mean Gardy’s comments are silly. Does it? Your reasoning is skewed.
Hi Gardy,
I personally do not believe the Bible is the word of God. However, it is fascinating to know there are Christians, who are serious about their faith, and belief in the Bible, who are also homosexual. Gene Robinson is such an example. He is an openly gay Episcopal priest.
I remain interested in the Bible and have even continued our family Bible reading since I left the faith in 2007. Two pages of the Bible and bit text from the Harry Potter series most weekdays is our habit.
In some older threads here on jwsurvey I’ve covered some viewpoint analysis of various verses that touch on homosexuality. Some are surprised to look closer and perhaps notice detail they would not have noticed before. First of course it is clear that male homosexual acts are condemned in Leviticus, wherein a death sentence is called for. But oddly, no mention of female homosexual sex. The verse before mentions sex between a man and his daughter in law and likewise calls for death.
When you get to Paul’s writing you see two groups condemned. Young male homosexual prostitutes (catamites) and older males who went to them (sodomites).
However, gay men, in long term monogamous relationships, could easily point out that just being gay does not mean you’re in favor of prostitution. Any more than the existence of female prostitutes could be used to say sex acts between a married man and woman is wrong.
What seems to be going on in the Bible is OT writers were concerned about procreation, especially in regards to a first born son. Such relationships were tied to inheritance and security in old age. A young man could look to Leviticus for some security against perhaps his older more powerful father. As per Leviticus any move the father made on the young man’s wife was a death sentence.
The Bible in NT time is not nation-based. Jews lived within Rome and Christians were even smaller yet. Thus NT writers could not get into suggesting a death sentence. Bad behavior was condemned only on the abstract spiritual level (won’t inherit the Kingdom of God). The calling of Christians stressed moral behavior and virtues like self-control. Thus both sides of homosexual prostitution get condemned.
But no where in the Bible is there any consideration of homosexual relationships, that would involve things like state sanctioned marriage. This is so for the same reason Bible writers don’t talk about airplanes and national democracy. Homosexual relationships would just not be a known thing to them, any in such would no doubt hide this from being public. Since the very idea of gay rights is of our time, we can’t expect Bible writers to address it in their day.
Cheers,
-Randy
Well done Randy. Love yer work. Keep writing like that. We need some common sense around this so-called blueprint for a ‘successful’ society. In reality, the bible is a blueprint for a ‘stressful’ society. It’s caused divisions since day one and continues to do so today and has been largely responsible for holding back Man’s advancement for centuries by being hostile to inquiry and it’s intimidating, jailing and killing of anybody with more than one brain cell.
Interesting points, outandabout. Made me think of something I just saw on the news. Apparently that sick perverted (heterosexual) monster Weinstein had a “how-to” guidebook he gave to his young starlets, outlining the “proper” conduct and ways of “pleasing” him (not sure precisely what that entailed, just use your imagination). He referred to it as “the Bible”. Just proves that anybody can write a Bible.
Hi Outandabout,
Thanks. Some atheists do little more than mock the Bible. And I must admit the shock of seeing Richard Dawkins description of Jehovah in The God Delusion was helpful personally. But over the years, I have gone back and reconsidered much of the text through a more objective set of eyes. I have also noticed how conflicted my prior JW views were.
In this video the young women bravely stands up for her beliefs. That in itself is not bad — indeed it does take strength to stand up for unpopular beliefs. Of course it runs very much in the other direction as well, since historically standing up for gay-rights put one squarely in the minority.
However we can see she is not really transparent about the basis of her beliefs or hasn’t really thought that through. When asked “honey do you have a problem?” her response about sex and marriage conceals the real horror of the Biblical basis for her belief. She should say…
“No, I can’t take the wrist band in support of gay right. I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and had I lived in the days of Moses I would have happily approved of the stoning to death of men who had gay sex. Now as modern day Christians we don’t do that, but we do look forward with delight at the thought Jehovah with his son Jesus will one day destroy all who engage in gay sex and support gay rights. Indeed all who don’t align with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the visible part of God’s organization on earth today, will soon be destroyed.
In all this our main focus is on the few minutes per week couples have sex. The full scope of their relationship and what that means is of no concern to us.”
In my ENH241 – American Lit prior to 1860 I have to write an essay on Johnathan Edwards Sinners in the Hands of an Angry Good. In this sermon he stress the great peril the congregation is in, hanging over the pits of hell wherein any moment they could fall and burn, literally, forever. Of course hellfire is an absolutely horrid doctrine and it would be easy to dismiss Edwards as a religious nut determined to put the fear of hell into the congregation. But his life shows otherwise. He invested a great deal of time in his philosophical and religious studies. I think it very worthwhile to try and answer the question of how did he go from an initial reluctance to complete acceptance of the hell fire doctrine.
Likewise I believe that if we fixate too much on certain detail we can miss other details. Lot had sex with his daughter — that is horrid — and attempting to whitewash it or justify will get one nowhere. But, we notice this results in the birth of Edom and Moab and that I believe is the important detail. It allowed Jews to justify a degree of negative views towards these groups.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Randy,
I can understand and agree with some of your points but I can’t help notice you have left out, purposefully or not, some of the pauline writings on this subject. How do you understand Romans 1:24-32? Particularly Romans 1: 26, 27? Aren’t these verses condemned female homosexuality? Moreover, my point was not about the gay right movement but instead about the Bible condemning homosexuality and the fact that there will always be religious groups that will not accept homosexuality. When it comes to some christians being homosexuals while confessing their faith in the Bible I don’t think it’s something new. We can find homosexuals in any faith or culture but that doesn’t mean their sacred book or core values don’t go against it!
Hi Gardy,
In regards to female homosexuality, I probably could have been more clear. What I was saying is the reference in Leviticus makes mention only of male homosexual sex. Nowhere in Leviticus or the rest of Hebrew Scriptures can one find a condemnation of female homosexuality.
The view of many believers is the Bible is inspired of God, that he is the ultimate author of all 66 (or 73) books. Thus such believers begin with the idea all these books have harmony and are timeless. I don’t believe that. Rather, I believe time, place and author play an important role.
As per Occam’s razor, sometimes the most simple explanation is the right one. The author of Leviticus could call for a death penalty, whereas all Paul can say, “receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.” (Rom 1:27). The obvious reason is Paul could speak, but had to be mindful of the limits the Roman system put on him.
Likewise, the lack of condemnation of lesbian behavior could simply reflect different levels of aversion heterosexual males have in regards to male vs female homosexual behavior. In the OT I believe concern about procreation is also a factor.
Some significant changes happen by the Christian era, such as the advent of Greek philosophy that permeated the Roman world. I see Paul’s writings as three sided triangle. In one corner is Paul, in the second corner are the Jews and the third corner is populated by Greek philosophy of the Roman world. To Paul it is all about Jesus and Jesus being the promised Messiah or Christ. The knowledge gained through philosophy is foolish compared to what can be found in Christ.
So what are we to make of Paul’s words where he mentions “female” twice? Here it is…
“That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their _females_ changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the _female_ and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error.” (Rom 1:26, 27)
If a reader sees this as a reference to lesbian behavior I would not object too strongly. However I think something else is going on — namely creature worship and a condemnation of lust. It is this view that I believe creates space for a Christian lesbian couple. Although naturally attracted to the same sex, they too may feel a strong rejection towards out of control lust and creature worship. The difference is a focus on mindset and emotion compared to an obsession with the mechanics of homosexual sex, whether it be fellatio, cunnilingus or anal penetration. If these acts, common to homosexuals, is the problem, then why doesn’t Paul specifically call them out? Indeed, wouldn’t he be aware, as we are today, that such sex acts are common to many heterosexuals as well?
“contrary to nature” is just two Greek words “para phusin” and yes, “phusin” means “natural” in contrast to what is “monstrous, abnormal, perverse” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). However I don’t see how one can be dogmatic and say Paul narrowly means lesbian sex. He could just as easily be referencing female prostitutes willing to perform fellatio or receive anal sex. In the 21st century we also have a certain advantage in regards to the word “natural.” We actually, more or less, know what homosexuals have long told us, that for them they are living in their natural state (see Francis Collins comments about the role of DNA and homosexual behavior in his book “The Language of God”).
What about the idea of “creature worship” vs “Creator worship?” The context argues this is the point. Paul believed in an invisible God. Romans, under Greek influence, could point to magnificent temples and impressive statues and sculptures of creatures of supposed Gods. Both male and female sculptures of the era were impressive and in many cases downright erotic. By verse 23 Paul would say they, “turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and birds and four-footed creatures and reptiles.”
Even more direct, in the verse just before 26, he says they “rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator.”
Verse 26 and 27 are given as an example to where all this creature worship leads. Unbridled, unnatural, lustful sex between both men and women. To suggest this is equal to long term homosexual relationships, as if to be homosexual is one in the same as being hyper-sexual is a tired trope many homosexuals simply report is not true. As one lesbian couple says, “if you want to know what is going in our bed, we’ll tell you — lots of snoring!”
After all that… if you read it thank you! I must stress this is merely my personal analysis of this material. It is also true, that although I am not homosexual, over many years and reflection on my former JW life, including some dealings with gay JWs as an elder, I do think there is much we can do to get folks to neither discard Bible or feel a measure of respect for it, demands we must hold anti-gay views.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Gardy,
My rather long reply with Bible quotes is awaiting moderation. I hope you’re able to read it soon. Thanks for your comments & reply.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Randy,
Although lesbianism is not specifically mentioned in the Bible one cannot honestly read Romans 1: 26, 27 and said that these verses are not condemning female homosexuality. As a matter of fact the term lesbian came very late in time, specifically in the 19th century when some were characterizing the poetic work of a greek woman name Sappho from Lesbos. Even when you are putting these verses into context the message is clear : Female or male’s homosexuality is unnatural. I am not a Watchtower apologist nor that I am trying to make people believe in the Bible but intellectual honesty requires that I don’t twist things around. I don’t believe in the mechanical inspiration of the Bible either! The Bible is a cultural product that echoes traditions and biases of different periods of history. Nevertheless, we can find good principles in any culture or books.
Gardy
Right Gardy. The Bible claims God does not approve of homosexuality, and it states Christ will one day rid the Earth of homosexuals. It clearly condemns homosexuals as you stated. That thought is clearly reiterated throughout the Bible. Critics who get picky stating certain verses or parts of the Bible don’t specify that exact thought but that those parts are claiming something different do so because they are Bible critics and non-believers, not out of logical reason.
And you are also correct in that we all judge, both other people and their actions. Anyone that claims they don’t is a liar, and they are lying to fulfill an agenda, even if their agenda is only self deception to feel good about themselves, their hopes, beliefs, or actions.
The judging Christ said we shouldn’t do is treating people as though their existence not their actions should be condemned by Christ. Since that is Christ’s prerogative we mustn’t even do that to the high echelon members in WT’s hierarchy. Look at Christ’s acceptance of Paul or Saul when Paul persecuted Christians. Hence Christ’s words, “love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you.”
messenger, buddy…..you’re expressing narrow thought and black and white thinking again. Unbecoming of an otherwise intelligent person. A life without color is not a life at all and hardly worth living. Humans need color for their mental well-being but religion wants to stamp it out.
Well said, out&about!
Outandabout
What you claim as color, I call lies. At best it could be called a lack of understanding (ie ignorance).
An issue that frequently comes up on this site is the so-called critical thinking skills that colleges and universities teach their students to develop.That’s not what colleges and universities teach. There are just one or two classes which involve critical thinking reasoning that are required in a college major. That is when the word critical is defined in the way I believe many of you refer to it.
All the rest of the classes that are required in a major do not require what you guy’s think critical thinking is, or what the colleges mean in their critical thinking classes. In those type of classes opinions are given. In other classes-which are the vast majority- the thinking is only critical in the sense problems have to be solved, answers must be given, or papers must be written expressing the knowledge and views that were taught in class-not your beliefs if different.
Some of the required classes that you might have though were critical thinking subjects, like most of the ones discussing subjects such as homosexuality, race, women’s rights etc. are the biggest brainwashing experiences I’ve ever been subjected too. There is no, no, or I don’t agree with what was taught, so I’m going give my own answers in those college courses. Not if you want to pass. Most of the classes are dispensing information similar to the way you received it in high school, just faster and at a higher intellectual level. But you better regurgitate it back or you will fail. There is no critical thing in the sense you refer to critical thinking skills like, “oh, now I’ve examined the Bible on my own so now I don’t believe in God.” Learn to understand what you read and you might. Still God has to let you understand, a god who exists outside of time, one who knows what you’ve done and will do. So I ask, knowing that will he let you understand or read without it?
Albert Einstein’s quote, “The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” God exists outside time and the biggest proof of his existence is that he has communicated messages to some of what the future will be. Some of those messages were long ago and have happened for you to see. But don’t believe those messages or their messengers if you choose not to. It’s your choice, only because you’ve been given the choice. In school (college), like I said above, you don’t have a choice to do anything but fulfill the assignments the way you will be directed to. No free thinking as some of you seem to claim there is in college.
So, outandabout, what you call color, colleges would tell you they call failure.
Hi Messenger,
>>Critics who get picky stating certain verses or parts of the Bible don’t specify that exact thought but that those parts are claiming something different do so because they are Bible critics and non-believers, not out of logical reason.<<
When one goes from a believer to a non-believer one of the issues faced is what to make of the Bible? For me personally, I don't believe in God. I don't see any evidence for the existence of a being capable of violating the laws of nature who is interacting with our world. Indeed, if such a super-being existed, it would mean we couldn't be certain of anything. In other words, the reliability of the laws of nature are an important element of gaining knowledge. See Rene Descartes treatment of this subject when he considered how much can be doubted and concluded the only thing one can know for certain is we exist. This lead to his famous phrase in Latin "cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am).
In regards to the Bible, one path many non-believers take is simplistic dismissal. Such folks often point to contradictions, moral issues, etc. Things like Lot having sex with his daughters. Jehovah drowning innocent children and animals because of the "badness" of man, etc.
I left the faith very abruptly in October of 2007. I literally was out in service in the morning and had to call elders that evening to tell them that the book study could not be hosted at my home anymore.
However, at the time, our family study consisted of reading two pages of the Bible most week-days. Now I didn't become a non-believer over night, it was about a 10-year process of study and consideration, much of it not fun! In 2005 I resigned as an elder, telling my fellow elders that I couldn't server due to doubts about the existence of God and my now positive views I had of the theory of evolution. But what should I do, just stop reading the Bible in the middle? I decided to continue and have continued ever since, making it through the Bible now several times. We're in 2 Kings 6 (axehead floats) NIV version now.
My conclusion was this: being a non-believer in God, does not mean one has to be a non-believer in the Bible. At least in the sense that the Bible is a real object that is the product of ancient authors, editors, redactors and copyists that finally winds up in our hands. I noticed the "authority" and "ownership" claims made by Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to the Bible. The Bible, they said, was a message to the anointed. The best a run-of-the-mill JW such as myself could do is read over their shoulder and be satisfied with whatever they told me it said. I reject such claims made by JWs or anyone else. No one owns the Bible, it belongs to all of us, believer and non-believer alike.
To all such JWs who would imply, "you stinking atheist, what do you know about God's word?" I feel like responding in the immortal words of Finn to Pat Mulligan in Waking Ned Devine, "Ah, piss off with you" but then I catch myself and realize, I was in the same boat many years ago myself.
Logical problem do arise when one claims to believe "The Bible" is the "Word of God." Well, how many books is that, 66 or 73? Should we heed the words of Tobit or not? What about other books that make claims of divine inspiration, such as the Book of Mormon? Or other books considered holy, such as the Bhagavad Gita? If we use ancient age as a criteria then we would need to examine the Bible (which has parts of great age — the silver scrolls of Ketef Hinnom were likely created in 600 BCE) as well as all ancient writings, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.
What seems to be inescapable for those who claim belief in the Bible as the word of God is some mix of personal revelation intermixed with the acceptance of some religious authority in their life. And for them, that is okay. Alas, I cannot go there and yet I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water and discard the Bible as rubbish.
What I have chosen to do is, let the Bible stand on its own authority. To let the authors speak to us in their words and for us to do the best job we can to decipher the meaning. And oh, boy, it is not so easy! In fact when you approach any piece of text and try to understand what the author is getting at, I'm engaged in a form of mind reading. I travel back to their time, glean as much information as I can and bring it all to bear to see what can be understood. And when I finally reach some level of understanding, argh… I waffle, and "say that is the best I can do for now… please point out things I may have missed."
In regards to homosexuality, whenever I comment on Leviticus 20:13 I try to be careful to always use the phrase "male homosexual sex." I do this, out of respect for the text — because that is what this ancient text actually says…
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
There is no question this expresses a profoundly anti-gay view and may even be one of the reasons why Saudi Arabia retains the death penalty for gay sex. And shameful to report, our country (USA) recently joined with a few others like Saudi Arabia and Iraq in voting against a UN resolution condemning the death penalty for gay sex.
When I say the author of Leviticus makes no mention of female homosexuality, that is a simple fact that is beyond dispute. When I suggest reasons for this, that is me speculating based on context and other historical facts. When I say, Paul is taking about "creation worship" vs "Creator worship", that is also beyond dispute — it is just what he says. Likewise when I mention Paul makes no direct reference to sex acts or to lesbians, again, that is just what is plainly in the text. Paul could say anything he wanted, he just didn't. Indeed the word "lesbian" is derived from the name of a Greek island of "Lesbos." In other words, Paul is not limited by the Greek language he uses to compose his letters, rather he is limited by his beliefs and concerns.
In regards to my speculations, I'm happy to discard them, if there are logical reasons to do so — but not simply because they conflict with some dogmatic religious belief.
What can get frustrating is having someone say, "have you read the Bible?" and when I respond, "yes, several times", then "well what do you think of this passage?" and I explain by reference to the text. I'll then move on from there and speculate on deeper meaning and motivations of the author based on context and historical facts. Then I run into the objection, that I must accept speculations of some religious authority or the person I'm talking to. I don't go there… both me and my religious friend are speculating. Far from being disadvantaged, I am completely free to say "that's awful" or "I don't need to insist on some predetermined dogmatic position."
Cheers,
-Randy
Randy,
Pardon me for not reading your response in whole before offering this comment. But I did catch your first part quoting my comment. My comment has nothing to do with your belief in God or the Bible, whether you believe those things are true or false. It has to do with understanding the thoughts in the Bible.
I believe this with all sincerity that if any USA judge was to rule on your argument in an actual court, your argument which stated that the words in the Bible do not condemn homosexuality, or as you stated the Bible differentiates male homosexuality from female homosexuality, or as you stated the Bible condemns homosexual prostitution but not homosexual relationships, then those judges would not rule in your favor but against it. You would lose your case. The judge would issue a ruling stating your understanding of the subject (the Bible’s god’s view of homosexuality)is overly restrictive in your interpretation of the ‘words’ in the documents (Bible books).
Short of not doing so for fear of being sanctioned for filing frivolous lawsuits or frivolous motions anyone can get a lawyer to argue any side of any argument in court, because a cheap lawyer charges $300 per hour plus expenses. Many others charge $500 per hour or more. Since most have money as their primary incentive to work. He would do it for the money. And of course someone who practices a sin condemned in the Bible but believes the Bible will attempt to rationalize their behavior. That being said, the wording in the Bible is clear enough with regard to God’s stand on homosexuality for those who want to follow that book to understand what it says about homosexuality. It’s clearly condemned in scripture.
Randy,
I went back and read about half your comment, the part that had to do with your lack of faith. God has not and does not contact most people. And the reason for that does not matter, the reality that he does not is what we have to deal with. But he has contacted some. He still does today, and I know that for sure because I was contacted by God. If you had similar experiences you would believe as I do, because then you would be forced to believe. The writers of the Bible were given proof that God exists. We call that proof prophesy. The same thing happens today. God shows some people just part of the future in such detail that makes the experiences irrefutably super-natural, proving his existence.
Most of the arguments against the Bible are written by critics with an agenda involving suppositions, or a lack of understanding the scriptures and other points concerning Jewish and Christian history.
Is the most important thing what other people say? Is what other people say more important than life? No. Like you I know WT teachings are wrong; so many are unscriptural. We all fell into that trap they set out because of WT’s and those who studied with us unscriptural beliefs because of ignorance.
Best wishes to you and your family. Though we’ve butt heads in words I always wish the best for you and yours.
Take care buddy!
messenger
Hi Messenger,
Thanks for reading my rather long posts.
>>your argument which stated that the words in the Bible do not condemn homosexuality, or as you stated the Bible differentiates male homosexuality from female homosexuality, or as you stated the Bible condemns homosexual prostitution but not homosexual relationships,<<
I'm quoting a part of your message to reference context. However, rather than address your summary of my arguments, let me state my direct understanding of the two verses under discussion.
The first is Leviticus 20:13, which says:
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)
I believe this verse is part of an ancient law code, that had force in the nation of Israel during the pre-Christian era. The meaning is exactly what it says, a male who engaged sexual relations with another male was to be punished with death.
I'll post another message to comment on Romans.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Messenger,
Here is a snippet of your post again…
>>your argument which stated that the words in the Bible do not condemn homosexuality…<<
The second passage is Romans 1:25 to 27:
"25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
I believe this a letter written by Paul to a group of Christians in Rome. The letter was written in Koine Greek. My understanding of this passage reflects my understanding of all the terms Paul uses. As follows:
They = men and/or women who "served created things rather than the Creator"
them = same as "They"
shameful lusts = (greek: pathE atimias) (literal: passions of dishonor)
natural sexual relations = (greek: metEllaxan tEn phusikEn chrEsin) (literal: alter the natural use)
unnatural ones = (greek: para phusin) (literal: beside nature)
natural relations with women = (greek: phusikEn chrEsin tEs thEleias) (literal: natural use of-the female)
shameful acts = (greek: aschEmosunEn katergazomenoi) (literal: indecency effecting)
Thus I believe Paul is saying, because certain men and women did not accept the Christian truth about an invisible god (verse 20) but rather believed in a lie about Roman and Greek gods represented by idols in the form of creatures and humans (verse 23) this resulted in unbridled, uncontrolled sexual lust.
When Paul says, "natural relations with women" he literally means normal male female sexual intercourse — penis vagina penetration. When he says "unnatural ones" the subject is "their women." While such could include lesbian behavior, without any other qualifications, it could also include fellatio and anal penetration involving an opposite sex couple.
Paul then calls out specifically "Men committed shameful acts with other men" and this references male homosexual acts.
The focus though stays throughout on where the worship of idols in the form of creatures leads — to unbridled sexual lust, that involves unnatural sex acts such as is common to male homosexuals.
In the next post I'll share the application I give these verses to my life.
Cheers,
-Randy
Hi Messenger,
A few comments on how an Bible-reading Unitarian Universalist Atheists seeks value from Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:25-27…
Having a death penalty for male homosexual sex is profoundly awful and immoral. Thank goodness this is no longer a the case in most of the world today! But before I get on my high moral horse, I must confess the many advantages I have in the 21st century. Philosophy, democracy, liberty and science has developed a great deal in ways people of the Leviticus era could never have contemplated.
I am also reminded a natural aversion, even disgust, for homosexual sex is an artifact of human evolutionary brain development. However it is also true evolution has selected for certain levels of homosexual toleration among humans. This is so because humans survive in groups and even non-reproducing members can contribute to survival.
The point about procreation and inheritance is a repeated theme in OT writings. This is a poignant reminder of how difficult human birth is and thus how special. It is a call for us to dump lots of energy into our children and grand children.
Paul’s views are merely faith claims. He may think his “invisible” God is better than the gods of Romans and Greeks, but I don’t buy that. And certainly those representations are now a marvel to behold and a credit to those ancient sculpture artists. While Paul certainly uses male homosexual sex as an example of unbridled, unnatural lust, to suggest he means to include lesbian behavior may not be as clear. Even so, I reject his view of what is “unnatural.” In the natural world of humans shows a great variety of sexual behaviors. Sex among humans functions for much more than mere procreation. It is used to generate pleasure and intimacy for couples, both same sex and opposite sex. To assume, any control over the private sex life of others shows one lacks a sense of proper boundaries.
Nonetheless, there may be something worthwhile to consider in regards to “creature worship” and “lust” in that self-control remains a worthwhile virtue. If our “Gods” become other mere “creatures” such as impressive humans or religious organizations we may be getting off track.
Cheers,
-Randy
Nothing wrong with being opposed to same-sex relationships. It is a moral issue. Just as being opposed to adultery, prostitution, or incest are all moral issues.
Hi Michael,
Doesn’t your comparison show that there is a difference? A same-sex couple is essentially making the same choice as an opposite-sex couple. It is just that in the first case they’re homosexual and in the latter heterosexual. One who commits adultery has taken vows against that. His or her actions will expose their mate to heartbreak and possibly disease. Prostitution almost always involves other issues, including abuse or drug addiction. Incest in many cases is criminal behavior, wherein a minor is being abused. Although adult siblings can be incestuous it is generally considered taboo, likely for biological reasons. Even Bonobo Chimpanzees, who have high-levels of bisexual behavior, multiple partners, etc, do not generally engage in incest.
If someone personally believes same-sex relationships are immoral, I don’t see reason to take issue with that. Their beliefs may be sincerely held, perhaps based on what they read in the Bible.
Where it gets to be an issue is when folks attempt to enforce their religious beliefs on others, such creating laws to block same-sex marriage. Here JWs aren’t trying to change society, but one cannot ignore the coercion they are applying within their faith, leaving individual gay JWs with a Sophie’s choice of suppressing who they are or come out and face rejection perhaps including shunning.
I also think one cannot ignore what happens when someone stands up and claims to speak on behalf of Jehovah God. Those who sincerely believe such individuals may wind up quite tortured in their souls if they are gay, have children or friends that are, etc.
Cheers,
-Randy
Michael, if you and your compadres can pry your minds off the homosexuality issue for 5 seconds, you’ll see there is so much more to the article. Oh hell, why do I bother? – You win!
Perhaps you should tell that to John Cedars.
Wow. When you take a few minutes to absorb this nonsense, you realise that only a cult could produce this. Even a sincere, well meaning one, if that’s possible. A massive thanks to Lloyd, J Redwood, Covert, Chloe etc. for their remarkable activism and work. I woke up 9 years ago, my wife only 2 months ago. So keep the faith my fellow heritics. On the shoulder’s of the aforementioned giants is where I am today. Relieved and sad, but with a peace of mind I never thought possible. Still in but almost completely out, just wish I had more balls to complete the exit sooner. Glad that my 4 children – yes 4! aged 8-15 – will not grow up as I did. Apologies for being off topic!
@Peter, nonsense it is all right. I looked at the videos and that was exactly my response. But why is it that our relatives don’t see it that way? When I say to them, “What a load of nonsense!” they look at me as if I am apostate. But surely it doesn’t take an apostate to see the nonsense. Surely normal witnesses should see it. It is as clear as day. It is as if the writing committee has no idea of reality.
Completely agree with you Ricardo.
Me too. You would think the average witness would at least consider it an insult to his/her intelligence. Maybe they do, just too scared to say it out loud. Of course, brainwashed as a kid, I too ate up whatever the Governing Boneheads and elders used to spoon-feed us, right into adulthood. So I try to put myself in their shoes. But if I heard that brothers masturbating in front of each other or going to strip clubs were issues, I might be prompted to ask myself, WTF is going on at bethel?
@ Peter, You are awake and see and know the nonsense. Treasure your peace of mind. All my best for you and your family’s future.
Thank you for this info! I have been out of this idiotic cult since 2010! 39 years in. I thank God everyday for opening my eyes and heart to real truths!
yes, an excellent scoop and it’s a shame so many Witnesses will be in awe of these video’s. Regarding the gay community, though – it’s a strange phenomena indeed how a collection of gay people can create fault lines in the Earths crust, or, are gay people attracted to fault lines? Wherever gay people are, earthquakes happen. I wonder whether Sir David Attenborough would be interested in that. Those gay’s have a lot to answer for though! You’d think they could at least spread out a bit. Lessen the damage.
Wow. Great report. The multitude of “advice” spewed out like a geyser from “Watchturd” LOL reminded me of something: How utterly USELESS all of this cult’s biblical “wisdom” and advice proved to be in the REAL world!! Don’t lie. Don’t revenge (“vengeance is MINE, says jehovah”). Don’t fight back. Turn the other cheek. What bollocks! I’m sorry, but in this world, sometimes you HAVE to lie. Sometimes you are forced to fight (if you want to survive). Don’t know about you, but I only have TWO cheeks. As for vengeance, well, in my humble, un-“spiritual” opinion, sometimes you need to pay back tit for tat, so as not to become anyone’s doormat or b@tch. I’m certainly not telling anyone how to deal with their problems or how to live, just saying that Watchie’s pacifistic, “sheeplike” approach to life simply DOES NOT WORK, based upon bitter personal experience!
…to be continued :)
Hahahahaa…… the Kenny Rogers caption was the best….hahaha…all 25 years of me as a witness my watchtowers and books were filled with captions and defaced pictures. It’s one thing that kept me sane all those years to be able to laugh at the societies art department… keep the humor rolling ……. those are the the marshmallows in the box of cerial…
soooooo, did the elders book was also released by a jw also tha was suppose considered ‘secret’?
…..Sorry, ran out of toilet paper. Had to dig up some old ‘Watchtower’s. So, as I was saying, not telling anyone what to do, I just found the passive, sheepish philosophy not practical, not for me, anyway. Don’t lie? Turn the other cheek? How did Watchturd garner so much legal protection, so much power, so much WEALTH??? By LYING, CHEATING, & STEALING. Even in court? Not advocating a violent way of life, then again, I’m not completely condemning violence either. I stay away from trouble when I can. However, along with my distrust for religion and religious people, I have developed a deep cynicism toward anyone who tries to pass him/herself off as a pacifist. Even our self-righteous governments who “condemn all forms of violence” seem to have no issues with unleashing thousands of tons of explosives from the sky, upon their “enemies”. But that’s another matter. Back to my rant on the Watchies. “Watchtower” – Clock Tower – Their time is running out. Tick Tock. The Watchies need to check their watches. Time is not their friend. So, as I was saying, the Watchies always advocated maintaining an even strain – when wronged or disrespected, DON’T respond, DON’T get angry, DON’T stand up for yourself. Same philosophy as propagated by the New Age types and the Social Engineers. Anger is a sign of weakness, inferiority, like Fear. Really? I’ve done some amazing things in my life, not because I was not afraid, but because I WAS afraid. The trick is, not to get fear out of the car, but rather, to get it out of the driver’s seat. As for anger – Yes, Virginia, there IS such a thing as Righteous Indignation! The mental hospitals AND regular hospitals are full of people who have been brainwashed to internalize abuse. And yes, Virginia, it DOES turn into cancer, heart disease, diabetes, depression, anxiety, etc. I do not intend to join those poor folks. Been there. Done that. Thank you very much. Now, I FIGHT. Tooth & nail, if necessary. I’m not Rambo. I’m not James Bond. I’m not a Navy SEAL. I don’t have to be. Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is the conscious DECISION to press on IN SPITE of the fear. Forget Hokeywood. You do not have to be a Klingon, with long hair and ridges on your forehead, saying things like, “We will drink the blood of our enemies”, to display courage. You do not have to fit the Hokeywood profile of a 7-foot-tall steroid-pumped Navy SEAL, to display courage. Who fought the Viet Cong? A bunch of 19-year-old kids, mostly from the ghetto. And contrary to the propaganda, they WERE effective. After all, the North was unable to conquer the South until AFTER the U.S. pulled out and went home. Argue politics and motivations all you like, but that’s a historical FACT. 19-year-old kids. Not Rambo. There is a kind of courage that does not rely on size, or looks (IMAGE), or decibel level. Quiet courage. The courage that defeated the Nazis. Quiet, deliberate men and women, like Patton, Nimitz, the Churchills, the Roosevelts, Montgomery. In fact, unlike the loud, raspy voice of George C. Scott, who played him in the Hokeywood film, the REAL General Patton was rather soft-spoken. That did not make him any less of a force to be reckoned with.
What have the social engineers, “new age” mystics, and cults like Watchie accomplished by trying to program “negative” emotions out of the human race, emotions like anger, fear, and yes, possibly even hate? They’ve succeeded in almost destroying humanity, or at least destroying the humanity in humans. It’s called throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It’s stupid. And impossible. You can’t program humans. You can brainwash them, but you can’t program them because they’re not machines. And brainwashing degrades a person’s potential. So what you’re left with is basically an empty shell.
So, to any Watchies or social engineers or “new age” gurus out there, to all the psychological and emotional manipulators out there, to all the physical bullies out there, I have this simple message, which I will put in a way you can grasp (I hope it penetrates your thick skulls, if that’s possible): PROGRAMMING HUMANS ONLY DEGRADES THEIR CAPABILITIES. You WILL succeed in building an army of slaves/drones/robots/whatever-you-want-them-to-be, but they will be next-to-useless, and when you send them out to fight for you, they will LOSE.
Unfortunately Churchill overcame Hitler by sending thousands of young people to their deaths. He didn’t want to do it but it happened nevertheless. What price a piece of land.
Indeed, landgrabbers suck! I think the Native Americans had it right. However, the Second World War was primarily about Freedom vs Slavery, Life vs Death, not real estate as much.
Nem li, nem leray
Is there a possbility to download the videos for the sake of conservation in case of censorship?
Great article, thanks,almost 10 years out after been a Watchtower slave for more than 30 !
You get the gist after the first one or two leaks are viewed, unrealistic scenarios and high drama to revv up the “believers”. One, most employers (except in cases of some smaller employers, perhaps) discourage political campaigning and soliciting in the workplace, including JW’s proselytizing, so skit #1 is “out of touch”. Two, since we just had a big letter-writing “protest” to Russia, uhm, tell me again, how we’re neutral when it suits us and political if it benefits us?
Skit #2, a few LBGTQ allies can be very vocal and even radically disruptive–taking it to the streets hence Pride Parades; one woman who had the courage to confront JW beliefs. What a weak rebuttal, though. I can’t because “the Bible says” and “I’m told not to” Basically leaves the audience, and me, with the impression that the Bible is a divided mess with counter statements that are illogical and contradictory–pick up your sword, don’t pick up your sword (Luke 22:31-34,36: Matt 26:52). Ref: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2010/11/30/jesus-said-take-up-your-sword-and-follow-me/
Skit #3, ya gotta right to fight for ya dooog-ma.. nervous?? It’s a little more than a cold-sweat and sweaty palms when a shotgun is cocked and a ravenous wolf is ready to tear you apart. The last time I prayed to J* for courage in the face of a bombastic householder, the dog was not only unleashed, his neighbors unleashed their dogs, too, and I had to scamper for my life. Besides, the little kiosks and display carts are designed to avoid all that confrontational non-sense–’bout time for coffee break?
But, enough of this–pray, hope in J*, and act. Hmmm, that might be sound advice for someone suffering from sexual molestation, too. Pray for courage; hope J* will bring justice, and act [get law enforcement involved BEFORE telling the elders]. You know, I think I will like this convention. Yes, sir..
Of course, the last skit should be a warning to anyone walking in from the street or thinking of returning to realize how mushed their brain will become after subservience and dutiful devotion to every word streaming from HQ. You won’t be able to make a jump [lack of confidence, despite all the prayers to your god] without consulting your local HLC, elders, building committee or le grande contremaître.
It is such a pleasure to have the honor of finally reading another article by you, Mr. Evans! As always, it is a very well written piece that fully expresses the degree to which Watchtower is going to unduly influence its members. And that bit about Kenny Rogers is hilarious!
You’re very kind! It was nice to be back in the blogging groove! :)
Thanks for the heads up, as i probably can’t get out of not going i can take many toilet breaks & surf the net, it amazes me how many are inside the tower headquarters & leaking this stuff, fantastic updates, well done, i have been on a 5 year journey now & am fully awake, but i have to be a PIMO, the other nite we had a dinner party at a friends house, attended by an elder & his wife, i always try top get conversations going about other stuff, not kingdom dribble, i consider myself educated & have interests in many things & love a chat over a few wines, but doesn’t take long until they all start blabbering about how close the end is, i look upon them & wonder how they will feel in 10, 15, 20 years.
@Whip It, how come 10, 15, 20 years go by and they still don’t realize? I remember a sister (when I was a teenager) always on about the end coming in two years. I really really had a gutfull of it. Now, more than 30 years later, the looney sister is still saying the same. I can’t stand it. I always tell the looneys I hope the end doesn’t come for another 20 years at least, so that some of the millions in China and India get to hear the good news. Then they call me apostate and I call them Jonahs. And we part on bad terms.
Yes, there was an old sister in my hall always saying that she heard there was a convention somewhere and the brother said, “Not years anymore, just months now”. And somehow this convention had the jump on ours and nonesense like that.
That was already about 10 years ago and she must be close to death. I wonder if she ever thinks how stupid she has been???
@ Fooledmeonce,
I have often wondered the same thing when my mother and my last living uncle passed away a couple of years ago. Did either one of them realize, at the end of their life’s journey, that they had been duped? They lived to see that there was no paradise earth, no end of the system of things, no Armageddon and that they were not a part of the great crowd of survivors.
I call that “to smart, to late”; which is pathetically sad. With the advent of the internet and sites such as this one, which my mother and uncle could not use, there is really no excuse in today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses remaining in blind ignorance unless, of course, they wish to.
Besides, it’s much easier to allow others to make decisions for you than to use your own intellect and figure things out for yourself. Call it mental laziness (read: stupid) coupled with pride (read: stubbornness) in their beliefs that they are too sophisticated to be fooled. I really have no patience for ignorant, dumb, people (read: ‘sheeple’) and have little time for their foolishness. I ignore them (Jehovah’s Witnesses) whenever possible because I don’t associate with idiots nor do I “cast pearls before swine”.
Whenever a JW will say how close The End is, I will always trip them up by exclaiming that I think it could be here in just two weeks! They look at me funny, mentally knowing that I won’t be here in that short of time, but also knowing that they can’t verbally say that. I try and show them that I have more faith then they do because I feel The End will be here sooner than they do. They think I’m crazy; but I know that they are.
In video #3 around 1 minute 30, the sister talks about her field service PTSD and the second elder in the background starts grinning. Maybe the actor was just trying to stifle a laugh at the ridiculous script.
LOL! I just watched that bit you mentioned & had a burst of laughter. Good spotting.
Then you have that hilarious but freaky moment at the 2.30min mark; “Pray, hope in Jehovah & act…got it”. If you pause on the elder telling her to repeat it he has the most culty look on his face like he’s trying to hypnotise her. And she’s so stupid that she has to write it down. God that was weird.
I kinda reminds me of this hilarious moment when I watched Louis Theroux’s movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UMKc-UYC8A
This is like a real life version of the sci fi film they live & us ex jw’s are the people that found the special sunglasses that let see the truth!
Jesus is holding a Howard Hill Big Five bow! I use exactly the same bow with same finish in clear fiberglass. Great bow. Would you think that gives me any chance for a better than average distruction?
Nothing better than to sit for 8 hours watching this junk. Instead of being pro-active on their items, their focusing on other people’s “issues”. Instead of leaving the LGBTQ community alone, Anthony loves to put his hand in the hornet’s nest. I wish the LGBTQ community would parade around Warwick, New York with signs that read, “We love you Anthony Morris III, you are our type of guy”. That would be an interesting site to see. The reaction from Anthony Morris III would be priceless.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the GB are informed their precious videos have been leaked yet again and apostates saw them first.
There’s another issue with this shift from books and booklets to videos. It leaves high and dry the older JWs who may want to see the latest output from the .org but have no idea how to operate a video recorder. Often a Thursday meeting would include discussion of these videos – but the OAPs would effectively be left out, excluded.
Of course it was far too much trouble for the elders or their wives to arrange an afternoon for all those 100s of videoless pensioners on the cong. who could enjoy some nice tea and biscuits watching it together, and maybe a few lifts in cars to get thek there and back. Nah, the cosmetics and hairdos and dressing and primping up before a meeting take up far too much time for that. You gotta look good before Jehovah even if you have no hospitality or love for others at all. That really impresses Him, right?
Can anyone explain to me what this ‘our message turns from good news to judgement’ means….a friend has mentioned it a few times a and now the elder in this video has too…. does anyone know of any references in JW material I can look up?
I didn’t watch the video you mentioned, but I know what that WT phrase means. Here is your answer:
At some specific point in time at the start of the Great Tribulation, WT is going to direct its flock to pronounce (by preaching to the general public) that Jehovah’s judgments are now starting against Satan’s world and those not following God.
That announcement will be based based on the belief of WT that very few people who are not active JWs prior to the start of the GT will become converted Christians during the Great Tribulation. There are some scriptures in Revelation they base that belief on, those scriptures state during the GT people will curse God because of the sufferings God brings on them at that time. Those scriptures state that people still will not honor God, even when they believe God is causing their suffering, hence they acknowledge God’s existence (they are not atheists). Therefore, WT believes most of the crowd coming out of the GT will be JWs when the GT started-not converts. The message that will be delivered at the Great Tribulation’s start will therefore be a message of condemnation, rather than one of salvation that is presently being offered the public in the door to door preaching work.
Other Christian sects believe many people repent and serve God because of the Great Tribulation. In those other Christian sects some believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, some believe in a post-tribulation rapture of the church. Most of those denominations believe members in other Christian denominations are saved because of believing in Christ.
WT’s belief is more restrictive. WT believes (for the most part) only Witnesses will be saved, and, if you are not a JW when things start there is not much hope for you, therefore the message is not one of hope or good news. WT’s strict belief that only Witnesses will be saved has been somewhat modified in recent years because it no longer wants to profess that God will kill little children. I’ve heard WT pronounce through circuit overseers that Jehovah’s reaction to that group (children) during the GT is unknown to it. Years back WT taught emphatically that little children would be destroyed during the GT also. Now it does not. But for everyone else not a JW it will be a message of doom and gloom not hope.
Thank you for your reply. That makes sense now then why a few of my friends are saying I need to come back ‘before it’s too late’ and some even say that ‘AS SOON’ as I see any sign the GT is starting I have to hurry to Jehovah’s side (come back to the ORG) but that I am risking it big time to even leave it to that point because it might be too late for me by that point anyway because I ‘know the truth (am baptised) but am not doing it’ they liken it to the door being sealed shut on the Ark and the GT is likened to the rain starting…it’s too late then and you can’t go banging on the door of the ark. They get very emotional and desperate when they talk to me about it. It’s heartbreaking to see that they really believe it. WT has such a hold over their minds.
You are welcome. Remember, as our friend Ricardo reminds us, “being a good Jehovah’s Witness is not the same as being a good Christian.” John 3:16-17
@Messenger, I foresee that in their desperation for the end to come, the GB will start preaching the message of doom, convincing the friends that the Great Tribulation has started. The doubters will be required to follow along because even if the instructions from the elders don’t make sense, they must be obeyed. After a decade of the warning work, the GB will deflect attention elsewhere, leaving all the members looking like fools, having warned about a destruction that never came.
Ricardo
It’s possible some of those GB members might get dementia due to aging and favor implementing your thought. But the rest of their members will probably hide their condition while retaining those that are sick in their body, just as a local elder might remain in a congregation’s body in name only while stripped of all authority.
Most GB members probably are of some intellect-since they’ve received such a high promotion- which should prevent your hypothesis from becoming factual. “New Light” and reasoning out more sensible solutions to the problem WT has gotten itself in, by putting its foot in its mouth through false prophesy, is more likely to happen.
Some Christians believe 1948 to be a year of fulfillment of Bible prophesy through Christ that the Jews would be dispersed among the nations until the “appointed time of the nations has been fulfilled,” and then they would be re-gathered. I think that’s what’s recorded in Luke chapter 21. It will be more sensible to claim the last days started then, in 1948, thereby extending the time in which the great tribulation must start per the WT’s interpretation of scriptures, especially those discussing the last days.
The reason why the date of the end was not made known by Christ is not just because, as he said, “only the father knows.” The reason also supports the biblical means of salvation. Salvation is only granted due to a person’s faith. And as the Bible correctly states there is no faith once we are face to face with reality, no faith in the unseen that is. It’s not hard to believe many would follow Christ for a date to be saved and not because of faith if one was given.
I hope everything is working out favorably for you my friend.
@Ricardo – I love your scenario. But I gotta ask, Isn’t that almost exactly what they’ve been doing for the last 100 years or so? lol
@messenger – Where DO you find the time?
@Resister
I write fast because I usually don’t take time to edit much. Also, with my comments I only comment on things I already know. I don’t look things up or take time to figure things out; if I can’t reason my position out almost instantly I don’t share a comment about it. Every now and then I might look up the exact spot a scripture is recorded to share that, but if I do I already knew the scripture, and usually I don’t tell the reader where it is, just a quote without a scriptural citation. Not editing and just sharing what I already know are the biggest time savers.
Also, I used to write Bible or WT talks on a weekly basis, and I’ve been through college which required written papers.
The way I write is to start with the first word and write through (word after word) to the end (sometimes going back and adding to a phrase which sometimes messes up my grammar for failing to edit the original phrase), the same way we speak, no outlines, or notes, or the peripheral devices they taught us to use in public schools and at the theocratic ministry schools inside the Kingdom Halls. Writing straight through makes for fast writing. Not editing much saves time too.
Take care buddy!
I don’t understand this either. Matthew 24:14 long pushed on us say. The Good news will be preach and then the end will come. No mention of anything else before the end. What are they making up this other preaching of bad news for ???
They make up whatever suits them. It’s just more baseless drama to keep their followers hanging on (by their fingernails, by now).
@ Resister;
Every few decades the mental midgets that are the so called “spirit directed slave” must have a big scare pronounced to shake up the apathy in the congregations otherwise the ‘sheeple’ may stray and do some research on their own and figure this cult out, heaven forbid. It’s their version of an old time, tent meeting, hell fire and damnation revival! We see it all the time down here in Dixie, especially during the summertime.
Thus the constant “call to battle stations” or really the constant call of ‘wolf’. But do you expect anything different from what Jesus described as the evil slave? They are the ones constantly saying “the master is delaying” and beats the others into more work. “The time is reduced, take advantage of this opportune time to increase your productivity at this never to be repeated work, buy out the opportune time, auxiliary pioneer, go to unassigned territory, etc”. On your own dime, of course.
Widespread damage in Tonga from cyclone Gita as God unleashes his fury on an extremely devout christian community where it’s illegal to work on a Sunday and so Tongans weren’t allowed to prepare properly for this cyclone. Do we need a clearer example in the here and now of how religion can make people stupid. It’s really quite pathetic. Of course, it will be mostly devil spawn soon to be killed atheists who will help these people rebuild.
I watched the Youtube clip yesterday, completely out of touch, i can’t imagine getting abused in a shopping line for refusing to by a rainbow bracelet, again the way they paint some people, All my adult life people have respected my stance on whatever, sure debate if fine, that poor kid, terrified, no comfort given, appreciate all your hard work guys, watched Lloyd’s video of visiting Warwick to brilliant, can’t believe you got in, dressed the way u were & the beard.
Oh i missed the bit about following direction, if the Elders were real then when they reasign people to different area’s they keep families together, again complete BS.
Watchtower has had problems with large families in congregations becoming a bit too big for their britches. Nepotism is a huge problem in their org so they’d rather separate them.
John Cedars(Lloyd Evans) and to whoever leaked these videos, WE cant thank-you guys enough!!!!
John, just a professional job as usual all around!! Always appreciate your efforts and videos buddy, your work and activism gets A LOT of attention. Full marks around!!!
AND, to whoever leaked these videos I acknowledge that there must be an immense risk at stake here. Your courageous efforts are astronomical!!! WE thank all you guys from the bottom of our hearts in the PIMO community for these HEADS-UP videos.
John, you always sign-off saying thanks for watching, WELL Thank-you for all you do. Keep up the hard-work bubby, thank you all from the bottom of our hearts!!!!!
To all on Jw Survey staff,
I wish to give my heartfelt thanks for all you have been doing during these years. I had lurked for a yr or two, maybe it was even longer, until i got the courage to post. You have been crucial to my awakening, and i must say it has been a tumultuous 5 yrs for me. I was not so convinced about the info i was reading, hence i researched 1 yr for every 10 yrs. I have been in this org. My belief system has been demolished, and it was not by apostate sites, it was by the Watchtower organization itself…their covering up of information that all in its ranks have a right to know. I think all should be given a choice to know the truth, and then decide if thats where we wish to be. Yes knowledge is power, no wonder they don’t want anyone straying off jw dot org. I truly appreciate your presentation of all the info because it is factual and not emotional ranting and raving. When i hear an activist ranting and bursting into kingdom halls and picketing, that is when i shut down and refuse to listen to what they have to say even if it is legitimate info because they sound like mentally disturbed persons to me. I NEVER would have woken up with that approach.
I am only now able to begin to repair relationships with my children whom i have shunned for many, many years. One relationship i may not be able to repair because 20 lost years have gone by. I am working on forgiving myself for putting a religion before my children. Instead of looking at all of the lost yrs, i am grateful for waking up so i can live the remainder of my life as i please and not be subject to manipulation and emotional abuse from a man made organization.
Keep up the good work on your reporting, you really are making a difference!
I cant believe the total spin that is put on those videos. The writer should be a fiction writer. He has a wonderful imagination. Better still he should find something constructive to do with his time
I would really love to be a fly on the wall whenever the Governing Body of Jehovas Witnesses convene in their secret conference chambers, put on their tinfoil hats, and wait for direction from the “holy spirit”.
On a related note, anyone ever watch 3rd Rock from the Sun? — “…..Incoming message from the Big Giant Head…..” lmfao
How long do they think they can keep up this scam?! I mean, as scams go, it sure is a good one! :D
Thinking of starting a Doomsday Cult of my own. It’s easy. Just scare the piss out of people by predicting the End of the World. Then convince them the only way to save themselves is to do exactly as you say and to give you their money.
In the late 50’s and 60’s I grew up always afraid that my life would essentially be over if I did not measure up to the rigid rules of this organization. This was due to my parents telling me this and then following up with whippings, switchings,and slaps to the face when I made mistakes. This very oppressive organization made this abuse seem okay. It is pretty scary for a child to face this not knowing what the next day would bring. So this experience gets carried into our teen years and then into adulthood. This cause and effect remains with us in some degree our whole lives. Thankfully for many years I am no longer an active witness, so the tactics used today have no effect on me, but even when I was in the organization full time, I always asked, (why in the world are they still doing this?). My point is this, nothing has changed. The organization is still trying to frighten people into submission. The parents of witness children are largely to blame when they adopt this seemingly endless array of frightening videos, and use them to keep the little ones in line, and themselves. The best solution for me was to distance myself. I am much more at peace now that I have made that decision. So to all of you who were oppressed as children, and are still being oppressed, get out!
Good advice, Patient Man. I’ve given this illustration before, so I’ll do it again. In the circus, baby elephants are trained not to try to escape, by tying their leg to a post with an iron chain. By the time they grow up, they are mentally conditioned to believe escape is impossible. So to make things easier on themselves, the trainers simply leash them down with an ordinary rope. The elephant can easily escape at any time, but he/she doesn’t know it.
Courageous elders at the Menlo Park cong, stood up
to the GB bullies when they commandeered the KH
property that local bros, had bought and paid for and
also sequestered the cong, bank account, Those
elders were removed from office and finally disfellow-
shipped. ( So much for appointment by H, Spirit ! )
It’s plain, they don’t want strong resolute people who will
question their actions, but only the compliant, the docile,
whose character has been progressively rendered down
by cult indoctrination.
Thanks for using that great word CHARACTER. Isn’t that what it all boils down to?
And thanks for the writing advice, messenger. I’m saving so much time now!
Just FYI, messenger, I did college too, and had to write lotsa stuff. :)
messenger, old bean…..by ‘color’ I mean ‘individuality’, ‘not critical thinking’. But I suppose being an individual can mean holding different views, which God does not want because he issued instructions on what we should do if we hear of people ‘discussing’ his name, which are, when all the thee’s and thou’s are removed and converted to modern speak, say –
1. Find our where they live and go to that town
2. Slice every living thing to pieces including the animals
3. Take every non-living thing to the center of the town and burn it to the ground.
4. Make sure nobody lives there again.
Whatever happened to ‘be sure of all things’? Which instruction do we obey? The way the Bible is becoming sanitized over the centuries to make it more acceptable means one day the book will be one page and on it will be written ‘Be nice to one another’ and thats all we need to know anyway.
That parade float you’re on buddy, is dripping with blood under it’s skirts and that blood will never be truly hidden, as much as they try.
Out&about, you are a true scholar! However, the way all the ‘true believers’ interpret the Bible, point no. 4 could easily read, “Now that you’ve conveniently eradicated the inhabitants of the land, go ahead and take possession of it yourselves…and enjoy with my blessing…oh, and feel free to sally forth and kidnap any other infidels whenever you need free labor.” The Bible – the ultimate Real Estate Acquisition Manual & Slavery/Genocide Waiver.
Haha. Just realized, the acronym of Real Estate Acquistion Manual is REAM. lol Appropriate.
Well, Resister, the Bible sets believers up for a very guilty ride with it’s moral edicts that demand too much. What did Christopher Hitchens say? – ‘born sick and then commanded to get well’. Much of the Bible gets ignored because it’s immoral, outdated, factually wrong, morally irrelevant or just plain silly. Other portions get ignored because it sets the bar too high, like putting divorce on a par with homosexuality. Or this JW edict on blood, while ignoring the bible ban on fat. This sort of crap does not go unnoticed. Nobody upon nobody can faithfully follow the bible and survive either mentally or physically. Once must cherry pick and then kid themselves they aren’t and then off they go feeling all high and mighty and soooo lucky to be in possession of the truth and then wonder why people don’t listen to them.
Every new thing they do only goes to make thinking JWs distance themselves from the cult more and more. Look at AvoidJW.org ‘s latest article about the life story of a PIMO. One of the things he mentions is the hypocrisy of the Governing Body.
I’ve read the letter you recommended, Joe, and it’s excellent, from my point of view anyway.
Yes, I agree with outandabout, that article is outstanding. I am disappointed that the brother is still an elder. Jesus said to do what they say, not what they do. He didn’t say to become one of them.
It would have been great to hear that he stood down out of principle.
I read the author’s article at AvoidJW.org. Since I am thoroughly convinced of God’s existence it is my belief that the average believing Jehovah’s Witness has a much more accurate belief about God than he has. Because those JWs have faith in God and Christ, even while following WT.
That author has fallen into a trap created by the Devil and supported by God to expose his adversaries, the idea that our own ideas are more important than God’s. God said, he catches the wise in their own wisdom-cunning- (or logical thinking). When caught that thinking claims our beliefs and ways make more sense than God’s ways.
For example, although the Bible states several places-e.g. Isaiah and through Christ- why it was written in a way which allows for multiple interpretations, that author believes if it truly represented God it would be a clear message to everyone. In addition to weeding out true followers God’s tolerance in allowing different interpretations of his word opens a broader door to salvation since he foresaw the rising of Christian sects sharing some common beliefs-those important to God. That is just one example of what I speak.
The idea that our ideas are more valid than God’s and therefore we have a just right to follow those is demonic according to scripture. That thought of demonic origin is not shared by JWs believing in WT. Therefore I believe JWs as a whole are in a much better place than the contributing author to AvoidJW.org. who is also a JW elder.
Of course commenters here, such as outandabout, who believe their ideas are much better than God’s or the Bible’s will side with that man; so no need agreeing again that he is correct. You’ve said enough for us to already understand that.
So he has fallen into a trap of the Devil by doubting God’s existence? Maybe so but I didn’t get the feeling that he thinks his views are more important than God’s. The onus is surely on GOD to prove beyond doubt his existence and actually get his finger out and HELP people whose faith is on the rocks rather than condemn them to the fate of the Devil, as you seem to be quick to do.
Neither have I read any other poster’s comments on here who say that their ideas are better than God’s. If they don’t believe in him, then how can they be better? What PROOF do you have that God exists and if he does why does he allow such tremendous suffering?
The ball is in your court not ours to prove his existence.
Just a notice in video 4. There is no question about what you like or not, about what you want or you need. You have to obey…unquestionable obedience. No free will, just obedience. They create a blind army. A non thinking army. As Russian told…we are extremist group. I believe that….
I just need to add one more item to my blueprint for creating your very own Doomsday Cult – the best part! – take all the money your followers have eagerly donated, build a BEAUTIFUL resort-by-the-lake, fill it with unpaid servants to wait on you hand & foot and to clean your dirty toilets, and Enjoy!!
Outandabout,
Like some commenters of the past you CRY about God and his words in the Bible more than you cry about WT actions and its words. Let’s talk sense. If you are correct about God’s non-existence then who is to blame for every action and every word in or out of the Bible that you condemn or make fun of? Would it not actually be Monkey-Man with his mutated DNA? In that case DNA mutations led Monkey-Man to kill his kind by the millions instead of tearing them individually apart with his bare hands and teeth?
No doubt you’ve been rubbed unsatisfactorily by WT, and that motivates you to speak out against the Bible and God. But do you have a message to help your fellow man act more righteous right now? Religion is not at the center of most conflict and killing. Is your only hope for peace the further mutation of Monkey-Man DNA?
Yes, according to the Bible God and other invisible beings have already, presently do, and will manipulate humans to war with each other as God and those other invisible ones settle conflicts that exists between them.
Bollox
messenger, old buddy……it is man who is to blame for for every word and action in or out of the bible. I have no problem with that.
Yes, I do have a message to my fellow man and that is to keep moving forward and keep up the communication so we may better understand and trust one another and in doing so, realize we are all the same and are in the same boat. Part of achieving that goal would be to remove the divisions caused by religion. It’s looks to me that English is going to come out as the universal language and that’s going to help enormously with the communication.
Democracy is spreading around the world and democratic nations are less likely to go to war with one another, but funny thing, religion does not like democracy. Democracy is fine in that a free world enables religion to spread itself but at it’s heart, religion is yearning for a divine dictatorship. It likes North Korea.
You’ve said twice on here, messenger, that god has revealed in the bible only what we need to know. That’s fine, so that means we really need to know how we may beat our slaves without causing them too much bodily harm, as outlined in the bible, but god doesn’t mention anything about the advantages of knowing about DNA and all the benefits that will bring and that’s why he doesn’t tell us about it? Come on, man. You can think better than that.
When ancient man heard thunder, did he say – ‘relax son, it;s only the lightning causing a sudden expansion of air and the sound we hear is the shock wave, so no need to worry’, or did he say ‘better be careful, son, that’s the God of Thunder’? Before long, there’s a god for everything. Man invented gods to explain what he didn’t understand. Your god is the same, messenger, but now we know more and he’s all set to join those other god’s.
The Aztec’s practiced sacrifice so that others could go on. Jesus was sacrificed so that others could go on. I think you can join the dots from here, buddy.
Please don’t misquote me. I never stated God has revealed in the Bible only what we need to know. I don’t know where you got that idea from. God’s revelations concerning Bible scriptures are for those he allows to understand them, for his own purposes. Reading something does not mean that meaning of what was read is revealed to the reader, especially concerning revelations about scripture. Also, most of the Christians I’ve heard comment on the subject prefer democratic governments over other forms of government on Earth contrary to your claim.
What I find really interesting in reading some comments on this site, is that I have read a lot about how different commenters’ research has proven to them that the Bible is proven false. And yet not one person has ever articulated one proof. Is it they have no proof, or, are these commenters just not articulate enough to provide anything more than their feelings and suppositions? Is it that feelings and not logical conclusions is what they call proof?
An articulate person can synthesize factual information and relate that factual information in relatively short statements. But rather than following that approach the commenters making such assertions here only state that they have done some research, with no actual comment about the things they’ve found in their research that support their points. Referring to people you call experts, those you admire, does not provide proof to your arguments. Beating around the bush, and admiring personalities in hopes others will accept them as supporting your arguments makes for weak arguments.
Of course you can always discard my proposed change in approach to your arguments and just continue to make assertion if you wish. But assertions can only lead the ignorant along with those who already FEEL as you do. Isn’t that Watchtower’s approach (assertions which are really nothing more than suppositions telling others to follow).
What are you doing up so late, buddy? Hey, you did say that. Twice. I could dig one example up for you I suppose, but the other time goes back a bit. The first time you said it I thought you were just being careless so I said nothing and then you said it again so my guess is you meant what you say.
Cheers, anyway. I’m not too fussed about anything
I don’t claim Christians prefer something other than democracy, in fact they would prefer it, but they can’t see they are also praying for a dictatorship with god as head.
This DNA thing, it’s been proven that there were at least two other hominoids roaming the earth alongside Us at some time in our history because their genes have turned up in our DNA and they could only have been passed down through the mother. It’s undeniable. But hang on……doesn’t the bible teach the earth was made for us and only us? How are you going to shoehorn that into the bible?
This carbon dating…ok, a bit iffy in the early days but now we have at least five other methods of dating an object and when all those methods are applied and all come up with the same date……you can’t fight it. We once thought Australian Aborigines had been on the continent for 40,000 years. Now, with improved dating methods it’s 60,000 years. Not looking god for Noah’s flood.
outandabout
We presently share the planet with numerous hominoids. Also multiple species presently share some of our genes. Yet species evolving into other species has not been proven. Different species cannot interbreed. That’s one of the conditional designations of a particular species. Although I did hear a news report once of a man found in a park to be up against the rear end of a horse. But no child was produced.
The evolutionary theory is just that, a theory, and it has not been proven factual although some will lead you to believe it has. An honest person in the know will admit that it has not. The theory is based on the types of comparisons you refer to, similarities and differences, such as similar embryos, similar genes, similar physical structures. The only thing scientific observers can attribute those similarities to is similar ancestry. Because what else can they see but other animals.
When scientists say the theory is based on observation they refer to the similarities and differences between species just as you do. And they throw in the speculative idea that mutations create species while never observing that. It’s a speculative theory which is far different than an observable fact, like the sun is out.
Since scientists cannot observe God at work in creation they don’t consider God’s creating as a possibility. But if God did create why wouldn’t he use similar components and designs when creating different animals. Isn’t that what man does with his creations? Or, is each car made in a completely unique way? Everything we make is built on knowledge about something else and also with other components. Why wouldn’t God work the same way?
Also, If you observed the modern skulls of an African, a Caucasian, and an Aborigine you would see major differences. And yet they are all human. They can interbreed. Suppose those differing skulls were found to have existed at different historical periods under different layers of sediment, and one type failed to exist today. Might anthropologists claim that type represented another species? Possibly so.
Also, there is no biblical time line defining the age of the human species. There are biblical ancestry lines. But in ancient Hebrew the word used for father was same the as the word for great-grandfather or some distant relative. There are multiple places in the Hebrew Bible that speak of a man producing a particular offspring when it was in fact his ancestor was down his line of ancestry. So, the time element you claim has no relevance. What if the flood happened a billion years ago? The Bible makes no comment on that.
Hi Messange, I have read all your posts so far (no jokes). God’s revelations concerning Bible scriptures are for those he allows to understand them, for his own purposes. mmmm. ok, I see, but also this is an argument without any proof, isn’t?
I have simply to believe you when you tell us that God has contacted you.
On the other hand, the fact that God doesn’t allow me to understand the Bible should in any case account to some fault on my side? because I tried honestly to believe in God-Jehova and missed the mark by a long shot. And it was the Bible that made me difficult to believe in Jehova.
tranquillo,
I’m surprised you missed that thought in your Bible, especially since you were a JW. Checkout Christ’s quotation from Isaiah.
No, like I don’t expect you to believe the Bible. Why would I expect you to believe me? I expect you to believe what you choose to believe. According to the Bible that’s why you’re here, to make those choices. I’m not responsible for your beliefs, and neither is God.(John 3:16-18).
messenger,
you are right and I didn’t miss it. It is simply a circular thought where the Bible is saying something without proving it. It does certainly certify that you were not simply telling your idea, but to me it doesn’t seem to account for proof.