A new series of videos by a former Mormon draws fascinating parallels between Jehovah’s Witnesses and the LDS Church

A fascinating series of videos has recently been uploaded to YouTube by a former Mormon. The videos tell the story of how he awakened from his religious indoctrination through a close examination of the Jehovah’s Witness faith – but not in the way the Society would perhaps appreciate! If you haven’t watched these videos already, I would strongly recommend that you do so.

Chris, whose YouTube channel is called “askreality,” was born in Canada and raised a Mormon in the LDS Church. A family man and once devout believer, Chris confesses: “the Church meant everything to me. I lived and breathed it every day of my life.” However, Chris underwent his own crisis of faith when trying to help his brother, who was struggling with doubts. He realized that it would be impossible to assist his brother without being prepared to scrutinize his own beliefs first. As he put it: “How could I expect him to listen to me, if I would not listen to him?”

What happened next is summarized perfectly in the following video. Basically, Chris found it impossible to defy the LDS Church ban on listening to what Mormon “apostates” were saying. Just like the Watchtower, the LDS Church warns believers to “avoid” all those who oppose its teachings. Chris therefore did something remarkable. He decided to gain perspective by studying a similar religion to Mormonism to see whether doing so would reveal anything pertinent about his own beliefs. This “mirror” religion was Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Chris soon noticed a striking similarity in the conviction of Jehovah’s Witnesses that their religion alone represents the one true faith. He also noticed that, just like with his own LDS Church, there was an extremely vocal community of former believers who felt hurt and damaged through the religion’s teachings – and who weren’t afraid to speak out about their experiences. Because he had no bias or emotional investment in Jehovah’s Witnesses, he decided to listen to what so-called “apostate” Witnesses were saying, both by speaking with them in person and watching their videos on YouTube.

A damaging belief system

As Chris analyzed what was being said about the Watchtower organization, it quickly became obvious to him that it was hurting people. JW teachings were tearing families apart through the harsh shunning of former believers, and the teachings on blood were even depriving people of precious life.

Chris noticed that both the Mormon church and the Watchtower have highly vocal former believers, and that both religions claim such “apostates” are evidence of Satanic persecution

As he explained: “I wanted to give the Jehovah’s Witnesses the benefit of the doubt, but it seemed possible that their persecution did have a logical reason after all. People’s families and lives were being hurt by their doctrines.”

Chris could empathize with those who were on the receiving end of such a destructive belief system, adding, “I grew concerned for those that were suffering. They were labelled ‘apostates’ and rejected as the devil, but their cause was just. I could not understand why the Watchtower organization would discourage proper medical care and shun family members.”

From his research into Witness beliefs, Chris concluded that there was something “inherently unloving and irrational” about Watchtower teachings, but this led him to wonder why Witnesses were so willing to accept such blatantly flawed and damaging ideology. “What would cause this behavior?,” he asked himself.

The grip of mind control

Chris watched one particular YouTube video that gave him reason to ponder. The video, by Marc and Cora Latham, described how Jehovah’s Witnesses are under a “grip” that prevents them from being able to objectively scrutinize their beliefs. As Cora Latham explained in the video: “It’s very clear to us once you step away how much of a hold they have on you. You can’t see the wood for the trees until you step out of the forest and take a look back and go ‘good grief, how did I not see that?'” Chris realized that Marc and Cora were describing brainwashing, or to coin a more accurate term, “mind control.”

This was a stunning revelation to Chris. As he explains, “I always thought that mind control was something from the movies! So when the ex Jehovah’s Witnesses began explaining how their minds had been manipulated and controlled by specific techniques, I was in shock and amazement.” Chris made the connection that if Jehovah’s Witnesses could be under the influence of documented mind control techniques, there was a strong chance that Mormons like him were too. This was an epiphany. It allowed Chris to finally muster the courage to examine his Mormon beliefs objectively, and break down the walls of bias and fear that had mentally imprisoned him for so long.

Through his journey, Chris came to realize that the amount of time, effort and emotion he had invested in the Mormon faith had left him biased – so that he could not accept reality even if it was staring him in the face.

A valuable tool

I’m sure there are many more like Chris, both among Witnesses and Mormons, who over the years have reached profound conclusions about their beliefs based on a comparison of these two religions. However, few will be gifted with the communication skills to describe their journey in the articulate, honest and unassuming manner that Chris utilizes in these videos.

I am certain that many indoctrinated JW family members, perhaps who are wavering with their own doubts, will be powerfully moved by Chris’ journey. Who knows? Perhaps such ones might be prompted to embark on a similar journey once they see how the same mind control techniques are used in other religions to suppress logical reasoning.

Through his videos, Chris sends the message out loud and clear that truth is more important and rewarding than bias. Bias results from the amount of time, emotion and energy we have invested in former beliefs. However painful it may be, we should be prepared to wipe the slate clean and examine our beliefs from a fresh perspective. If something is really true, then it should stand up to the closest possible scrutiny. And real truth is always worth finding in the end.


94 thoughts on “A Mormon examines his faith with a little help from Jehovah’s Witnesses

  • March 8, 2013 at 7:26 am

    It really is so true of many who have invested time, money, emotion etc into a religon, that it is very hard to break from it, even though it is totally obvious it is wrong. None of us like admitting our mistakes, and it takes a special type of person to be able to seriously examine and question all the things we previously held as true.
    For those who are strong enough to be able to do it, the rewards are great. You are no longer a slave to a religion that demands your total obedience and committment. At long last you are able to start thinking for yourself again, rather than relying on others to tell you what to do. That has been my expierience, when I finally broke away from Jehovah’s Witnesses. I now have my life back, and I live it to the full.

  • March 8, 2013 at 8:11 am

    I grew up a JW and rose through the ranks. I have not been through any of the disciplinary committee’s to date, however, to make a long story short, I have no IDEA what it would take, to get me back into a Kingdom Hall. Chris’s threads are ground breaking! I cannot wait until he get’s around to the thread: Where Do We Go From Here?

  • March 8, 2013 at 10:30 am

    Querido Cedars
    Sigo tu blog desde hace tiempo y me encanta. Soy curioso y veo muchos blogs de muchas religiones porque nadie me lo prohibe. Soy un mormon converso desde hace 37 años y leo de todas las religiones y nadie me lo ha prohibido nunca, ni se predica nunca al respecto, ni se cita en ninguna publicacion ni discurso de los Apostoles…. respeto todas las opiniones, pero me gustaria que ademas de escuchar los testimonios, contrastar y comprobar si eso es cierto, pues las opiniones son subjetivas y los hechos son objetivos. La Iglesia mormona NO PROHIBE ver nada, creemos que “la gloria de Dios es la Inteligencia” y que “cualquier tipo de conocimiento que adquiramos, se levantará con nosotros en la resurreccion”, asi es que nada está prohibido… le desafio, amablemente, a buscar alguna publicacion que afirme lo contrario.
    Tampoco hay un rechazo social a nadie que deje la Iglesia, ni tenemos temor ni rencor a los “apostatas”, termino que no utilizamos apenas… de hecho los que se alejan d la iglesia son tratados con amor y cariño y no se les niega el saludo ni el amor…. (hablo como Iglesia, no a nivel personal, que algun tonto puede portarse mal con otro)
    Tampoco se ejerce ningun control mental sobre nadie… somos libres de creer y vivir lo que queramos, y muchos se van de la iglesia y nadie los controla, cada uno deje elegir su propio camino.
    Quedo a su disposicion para cualquier aclaracion o testimonio personal que desee sobre la Iglesia mormona.

    • March 8, 2013 at 10:40 am

      Thanks Tony. I’ve actually posted this video on my post about JW.org.

      • March 12, 2013 at 4:51 am

        In bosnia jw celebrate birthdays ,new year ,march8,and doctor are saying there was an emergency receiving blood.Were still members.

  • March 8, 2013 at 10:37 am

    Santiago – I am not Spanish so it will be difficult to address your questions fully. You do say (according to Google translate): “nothing is forbidden … I challenge you, kindly, to find any publication that claims otherwise. Nor is there a social reject anyone who leaves the church, nor do we have to fear or rancor ‘apostates,’ a term used not…”
    If you check Chris’ videos, you will see that he provides ample quotes from Mormon church literature to support his claims that those who oppose official teachings are to be “avoided.” I have used the word “ban” to describe these instructions. If you object to my terminology I can only apologize, but it is supported by the quotes Chris provides in his videos – unless you doubt the authenticity of those quotes?

  • March 8, 2013 at 11:11 am

    Gracias por sus palabras, yo no sé mucho ingles pero he visto con detenimiento el video no HAY NINGUNA CITA DE APOSTATAS… no se menciona esa palabra, porque apenas la usamos, como cualquier otra iglesia cristiana.
    Voy a analizar todas las citas que aparecen.
    Se ve el capitulo 1 del libro de JAROM, he leido el capitulo entero y solo habla de guerras entre nefitas y lamanitas y de personas que vivian los mandamientos y otros que no, pero no juzga ni condena a ninguno…. de hecho en el verso 2 dice que escriben esas cosas para el beneficio de los lamanitas… que eran sus teoricos enemigos…. eso creo que se llama amor.
    Luego se cita DyC 10 : 12 que habla de Satanas, que quiere destruir la obra de Dios…. nada mas… podriamos citar docenas de versiculos similares de Pablo y otros apostoles antiguos…. no habla de apostatas.
    Se cita una de las preguntas de la entrevista para el Templo, aqui concretamente se pregunta si crees o estas afiliado con alguien que enseñe cosas contrarias a las que nosotros creemos…. NO ES LOGICO? Un mormon no puede creer, por ejemplo, en la Virgen Maria, en el infierno, en la prostitucion, en la deshonestidad… y ser digno de ser llamado mormon… NO HABLA DE APOSTATAS, habla de vivir y creer en tus creencias.
    La ultima cita de James E. Faust, habla del diablo, NO DE APOSTATAS….
    Querido Cedars, ¿cual es la literatura mormona que justifica este articulo?, revisalo con cuidado y si estoy equivocado, lo reconoceré, pero hasta donde veo y comprendo, no hay una sola cita que justifique ni miedo ni rencor a los supuestos “apostatas”
    PS.- Los supuestos apostatas que protestan en la foto contra la iglesia, en su inmensa mayoria no son ex-mormones, sino miembros de otras iglesias, normalmente protestantes, y eso lo he visto yo con mis propios ojos.

    • March 8, 2013 at 11:36 am

      Santiago, perhaps it would be better for you to check all of Chris’ citations BEFORE you go insisting that they are wrong or don’t exist. I understand that you are a mormon and you feel compelled to defend your beliefs, but I’m not sure a JW website is the place for you to do it. At the very least, can you please do us the courtesy of posting in English (or getting someone who speaks English to post for you)? If you could also keep your posts brief and to the point, that would be appreciated. Finally, on a personal note, I would urge you to do as Chris has done and try to see through the bias. The rewards would be considerable.

  • March 8, 2013 at 11:50 am

    Thanks, I’m back to check appointments of Chris and are wrong …. what else I can say?
    apostate says any appointment or prevent anyone ….
    You can look and tell me quotations where I am wrong?
    Mormon Convert 37 years ago, not biased, I hope
    Very soon, no?

    • March 8, 2013 at 12:09 pm

      Precisely which quotations that Chris uses are wrong? Can you supply evidence of this, or are you just interested in contradicting what he says with or without evidence? You have made the accusations so it is for you to prove them, and back them up. I won’t do your work for you.

    • March 8, 2013 at 12:11 pm

      By the way, the fact that you have been a Mormon convert for 37 years does not mean you are free from bias. Quite the opposite.

  • March 8, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    I do not accuse
    Chris accuses without proof
    Jarom, D&C 10:12, Elder Faust say nothing of apostates, say nothing of refuse, can read again?

    Some Mormon teachings ….
    D&C. 109
    50 Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins.

    Alma 30
    6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

    7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

    8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

    9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

    • March 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm

      Santiago – your comments were difficult to comprehend because they were either in Spanish or broken English. However, based on Google translations you seemed to be accusing Chris of falsely quoting from Mormon texts. Is that what you said? More specifically, did Chris quote falseley from Mormon texts – including the Temple Recommend Questions and the D&C Gospel Doctrine Lesson #24? Yes or no.

  • March 8, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Course…. no one is free from bias

  • March 8, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    Sorry for my bad english… I do not accuse, just say that Chris use mormon literature out of context, because no text say “apostate” or “rejects anybody” for different beliefs, o forbidden anything of opposition….

    • March 8, 2013 at 1:46 pm

      Explaining that statements like “avoid those who would tear down your faith” are the Mormon way of telling people to avoid and reject apostates is not taking anything out of context – it is merely paraphrasing in a way that people can understand.

      Chris has supported his statements with quotes directly taken from Mormon texts and literature, and which lead many Mormons to be fearful of doing objective research about their beliefs. If you are trying to tell us that the LDS church actively encourages its members to get a second opinion on its teachings from ex-Mormons, then you should provide quotes to support this assertion as Chris has done. Otherwise, it seems as though you are just trying to discredit Chris because you don’t like what he is saying due to your personal bias as a Mormon of 37 years.

  • March 8, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    “then you should provide quotes to support this assertion as Chris has done. ”
    e.g. complete text…..
    D&C. 10
    9 Therefore, you have delivered them up, yea, that which was sacred, unto wickedness.

    10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.

    11 And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written;

    12 And, on this wise, the devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work;

    13 For he hath put into their hearts to do this, that by lying they may say they have acaught you in the words which you have pretended to translate.

    14 Verily, I say unto you, that I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing.

    15 For behold, he has put it into their hearts to get thee to tempt the Lord thy God, in asking to translate it over again.


    • March 8, 2013 at 2:26 pm

      Santiago, you don’t seem to know what “out of context” means. The passage you have quoted (and this is just one of those mentioned) only underlines what Chris is saying in his video, that Mormons are taught to fear so-called apostates as those used by Satan who “alter words.” Just because it doesn’t use the word “apostate” does not mean that is not who the above passage is clearly referring to.

  • March 8, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    Cedars, I am impressed with your patience. But I am reminded in Darrel Ray’s book, “The God Virus,” why people like Santiago will never see it. By extending the metaphor of religion as a virus, his readers gets a better understanding of the incredible power religion can have on anyone’s way of thinking. Dr. Ray shows that even your IQ is negatively affected.

  • March 8, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    My cousin Mark Evans sums it up this way, “Once again, it comes down to the fear of loss. That constant fear of losing ‘eternal life’ and/or ‘eternal’ relationship with family, keeps people bound to that ‘one true’ religion.”

  • March 8, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    This is my last post… I like tu speak about facts, not about opinions…. that’s subjective.
    Only say that’s says, is not true nothing about the apostates…. and I can show you
    D&C 10 was received 1 year before the organization of de church
    Section 10
    Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, likely around April 1829, ….
    And the Church was organized april 6 1830

    THE FACT…. impossible speak about the apostates when not there was any church…. and any member… YET ¡¡¡

    THE OPINION… is subjective and respectable.
    Thanks for everything.

  • March 10, 2013 at 9:10 am

    This whole line of reasoning is sad. Firstly, Mormons appear like JWs only in a preaching manner and shunning. BUT Amish shun and dont preach, and Catholics are an identical structure of bishops who required Mormon acts of worship like Catholics. Other religions might believe all babies were angels in heaven, but JWs do not. JWs are more like the secular science that teaches life is born & it dies unless a God brings it back. The biggest flaw (propaganda like Satan which comes from world war 2) accusing all of mind-control brainwashing is not at all what it is. Total power and total control is NOT brain washing. Everyone enslaved to what ever boss, or church, or country does so out of fear. I know of few JWs who feel they jump to commands of people in control or threatening them. However, the “keep quiet or we’ll shun you” works anywhere (the how would you like for us to do this or that was done to me threatening my job or pension at Krysler). Stepped aside the chief steward hushed me saying the woman was black and i’m a white man, who do i think has the persuasion. The issue is she said i stick things up my S. I guess harrasment only defends women & blacks. While others were laid-off they favored hiring a temp that was grandson to a worker. I asked several men & women if they wanted to go see a movie, and his reply was go to the office and claim i was hitting on him. Again the power of threat as with twisted people everywhere. NOT brain-washing. To regard blood as too sacred to use at all is a religious right. Again, my mother a JW, doesnt take it because of that. BUT i said it is my right not to take it myself nor let a hospital or doctor force it on me. Again, a black woman who found christ and only did good witchcraft accused me of saying she is going to hell for blood she took, and again up in the office to get fired. Is this mind-control Krysler had, or simply power control? Why is it that a black woman who boasts she is a witch can seek to have fired someone who does not want blood. Does not wanting blood work? Well my mom had heart bypass this year. Her legal power were two JWs and a circuit overseer. I told the nurse why do you have to blood-type her. And they said in case. I said there is no incase you want to force it. They did it during non-visiting hours. Put her on plasma for minor prevention of dehydration. Called it blood substitute and blood expanders, not blood. So no legal power by JWs prevented this rape. Yes before they did it, i said do not rape her conscience. Yet they did. I Googled & told her there is no guarantee the plasma did not have HIV. My baptized non-DFd gay brother got a blood transfusion approved by his sugar daddy for bleeding due to pain meds & drinking. What a sweet world you non-JWs all are.

    • March 10, 2013 at 9:17 am

      Thanks Richard. Welcome to this website. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could tell us what your background is? It sounds like you might be a Mormon who objects to any negative information about the LDS church, but I could be wrong.

      A more accurate term for what you repeatedly describe as “brainwashing” in actually “mind control.” The individual elements are not mind control by themselves, but used collectively in a certain way they do exert “undue influence” on the human psyche. Anything that unfairly influences someone to do something they wouldn’t normally do can be considered as mind control. And yes, the LDS church uses mind control techniques just like JWs do, to varying degrees.

  • March 10, 2013 at 9:49 am

    “the LDS church uses mind control techniques just like JWs do, to varying degrees.”
    Can you quote some examples, please?

    • March 10, 2013 at 11:28 am

      Santiago – type in “i am an ex mormon” on YouTube and you will see plenty of examples of those who have escaped mind control in the LDS church. It’s ironic that you’re now demanding examples from me when you were reticent to provide any.

  • March 10, 2013 at 10:14 am

    Mind-control is not when people put you between a rock and a hard place, damned if you do, and demaned when you dont. Mind control is to think youre doing right when youre not because you were told rules to obey though you dont understand why. Mind control is when you do things because your dizzy starving. Mind-control is when you obey because youre tired needing sleep. Granted there exists a power (one-body one-spirit) within each Hall, each church, any church, any coporation where you have to fit in with a collective who have taken hands with setting the rules all must obey or face that collective. All the rest in the congregation (yes strong people who stay), do see the clicks, the clouts, the collective and wisely avoid that, not avoid jehovah and the whole religion.

    • March 10, 2013 at 11:30 am

      Elijahovah, there are arguments that all religions employ varying degrees of mind control. However, JWs excel in it. Not all religions punish people for leaving, but JWs do. Just ask those who have been disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the Governing Body. Better still, put your hand up at the next meeting and say “I don’t believe the Governing Body are the Faithful Slave” and see what happens.

  • March 10, 2013 at 10:26 am

    Everyone influences everyone, and everything upon everything. If you dont narrow the definition down of mind-control, we are all mind-controlled. Like Jesus said, everyone is slave to something, many things. Even natural things youre enslaved to eat and drink and walk your muscles or even procreate. The loose definition of mind-control is an attempt to hate-label people just like gangrenous and poisonous, etc. Apostate words are not the only gangrenous mind-moving effects, movies are, TV is, books are, pictures are. ANY picture in a WatchTower speaks 1000 words. That means if you have room to say only ten words for the picture, there are 500 awesome things of truth seen in the picture, and also 500 lies people will fabricate. A sister once said the survivors will not have sex & children like the resurrected wont, based on a picture. So the 1000 words of a picture aint so hot when liars make stuff of it that it isnt. That goes both ways whether claiming new light that you believe the WT is teaching us, or whether someone attacks it as how evil to show children. Tell you what, if you want a friend, you can go on Craigslist personal ads, but they will post porn pics there forcing you to see trash just to seek friends or wife. Among this is cartoon porn of old men doing children because a cartoon is not a minor. Craigslist terms says YOU are the one who has to flag it if you dont like it. AND no one is flagging it.

    • March 10, 2013 at 11:33 am

      Elijahovah – your arguments across multiple articles seem to revolve around this basic premise: “So what if the organization’s bad. Other organizations are bad too, so why not attack them?” I would remind you that this is supposed to be God’s appointed organization, and organization that, according to Jesus, should identify itself as Christian by the love it shows. Rather than love, you have families torn apart in the name of “Christian unity” through the unscriptural application of shunning. It is better to have no religion at all than attach yourself to such a cruel and evil one – and encourage others to join it.

      • March 10, 2013 at 11:54 am

        You expand on my words. Sure the one org is bad inside, and so why dont you attack the others too, instead of YOU saying leave the one where you can then be like every one outside too. BUT what is it in your heart that causes you to say THAT MY INTENT is to say SO WHAT! I didnt say So What. Those two words are a deliberate implication that i feel the bad inside should be excused with all the other bad outside. Pointing out hypocricy is not with intent to say excuse the one rapist because the other 99 havent been arrested. It is asking why you dont go beyond JWs and Mormons. So then why do you imply that i say so what! I see so much wrong by leaders UNDER the GB not the GB itself. Youre blaming the GB saying they approve of what leaders under them do. I see that as blaming Jesus for the sword that Peter pulling the sword out. Indeed i agree with you Jesus did not heal it just for love, he healed it or he as the leader is liable.

        • March 10, 2013 at 12:02 pm

          Elijahovah. To be honest, it’s difficult to understand what you’re saying, although I’m trying hard. Can I assume English is not your first language?

          You say: “Pointing out hypocricy is not with intent to say excuse the one rapist because the other 99 havent been arrested. It is asking why you dont go beyond JWs and Mormons.” Do you really want me to defend why an article about an ex-Mormon on a JW-website couldn’t discuss EVERY religion, and not just JWs and the LDS church? Surely that is self-explanatory. There are only two religions involved in this story, and the ex-Mormon was able to draw parralels in the mind control tactics between the LDS Church and the Watchtower. The fact that he doesn’t go through a comprehensive list of all religions drawing similar comparisons doesn’t make his argument any less compelling. Is that really the only thing about this article you can criticize, that it doesn’t cover ALL religions?

      • March 10, 2013 at 12:01 pm

        BUT they killed Jesus anyways though word went around he healed a cut off ear. Yes i think many JWs cut off ears and they dont get healed. BUT if healed by the GB would you not kill the GB anyways? Ponder that. Because they did then, and the true org is no less to happen the same way again. That is why i take the name Elijah because i say what John says. I see who the Lamb is and she will be killed. By Judas from within who goes to the churches and has all of YOU as the false witnesses, because what makes it false isnt the injury, but the perspective of what the injury is. Like the people who take you to court saying you raped them, but the victim is a prositute who says the rape wasnt the crime, she says the crime was you didnt pay her. This is how the list against Jesus read, the petty, above the reality.

        • March 10, 2013 at 12:03 pm

          “Yes i think many JWs cut off ears and they dont get healed. BUT if healed by the GB would you not kill the GB anyways? Ponder that.”

          I’m sorry but I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. I doubt anyone else will either.

  • March 10, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    For 17 years on the internet, the excuse is asking me if i speak English. I speak with thought, not words. There is alot in every sentence i speak because otherwise it would be books full. To clarify, i see where different languages all converge on all religions from one man Noah. I see no one else in the world that can show you how all calendars came from 360-day before and after Flood, and the 365-day of 2030bc. In fact the chinese 10-year and 12-year was 360-day for 180 years before the 365-day calendar. And the current Chinese is not from 2637bc but 1437bc. I see error very easily in all people all languages. I feel God has a reason for this. Did you know Christmas is the death of Noah not Nimrod? (2021bc Dec 25 =G.Dec 8)

  • March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    OK Elijahovah, now you’ve completely lost me. First you’re talking about cutting off ears and now you’re talking about Noah. Is there any chance you can keep your arguments on topic, and try to make them understandable? If it becomes clear that your intention is just to throw garble at us to try and confuse us, I may need to respond accordingly. Consider that a friendly warning. I am all for reasoned discussion, but I don’t see anything “reasoned” in what you’re typing – just nonsense I’m afraid.

    • March 10, 2013 at 1:06 pm

      Well then consider yourself as defiant of God and judged. You obviously do not beleive in armageddon, and you say you dont fear God nor it. Because you think the “true religion” you keep spouting out does not have Noah, nor do you even care if Peter was guilty of cutting off an ear, which then you (alive back then) killed Jesus not Peter for doing it. And no evidence because Jesus healed it. Clearly, you do not heal, nor does your site, because you write back and post back threats to kill in friendly last warnings like they also gave Jesus when refusing to understand anything he said. Consider yourself posted everywhere else, clip, copy, paste.

  • March 10, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    “Well then consider yourself as defiant of God and judged.”

    I am “defiant of God and judged” simply because I can’t make sense out of what your saying? You’re portraying God as being extremely unreasonable.

    “Because you think the ‘true religion’ you keep spouting out does not have Noah, nor do you even care if Peter was guilty of cutting off an ear.”
    I don’t recall passing comment in a single article about Peter cutting off an ear, and I fail to understand what that (or Noah) has to do with Chris’ mormon video.

    “Clearly, you do not heal, nor does your site, because you write back and post back threats to kill in friendly last warnings like they also gave Jesus”
    Again, you’re accusing me of things I have no recollection of. I never purported to be running a “healing” site. I run a website that presents facts about Jehovah’s Witnesses, and allows Witnesses to express themselves their true beliefs by voting on our surveys. And I certainly don’t recall threatening to kill you. That’s just ridiculous. I will block you from the website if you continue to spam it with nonsense, but it seems that’s what you want me to do by your increasingly antagonistic tone.

  • March 10, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Ironic is belifs something without FACTS…. only oppinions or personal experiences…. all of this is subjective…. I take several years reading pages like “I am ex mormon… ” and only oppinions, not facts,,, off course the members are not perfects and there are many bad experiences… but this is not the teachings of de Church, like institution…
    I repeat…. show me examples of mind control…. when de church teach spiritual self-sufficiency, family first, follow de Holy Ghost, no blind obedience, no bias, no rejects nobody, etc…..

    • March 10, 2013 at 2:21 pm

      I find it hard to believe that are suggesting the Mormon church – a church that claims it is the sole true religion – has “no bias.” Do you know the meaning of the word bias?

      And if you are calling all the people on the “I am an ex Mormon” videos liars because they complain of various aspects of mind control within the Mormon church that is your business. I can fully relate to what they are saying and have no reason to doubt their “testimonies” unless you can prove to me that they are misrepresenting Mormon beliefs. So far your modus operandi is to criticize something as not being true, but offer nothing to support your assertions. I must just take what you say at face value without questioning it. Sound familiar?

      The Mormon texts Chris has quoted on the video are abundant evidence to support his main point, namely that Mormons are under mind control because they are conditioned not to think objectively, or accept new information that contradicts their teachings – yet you have already tried to discredit this evidence by saying Chris quoted “out of context” despite the fact that (as far as I can see) all quotes used by Chris were used perfectly within context.

      Might I suggest you do some research into what two key terms mean? These are “bias” and “out of context.” I’m not sure you understand fully what those terms mean. It wouldn’t hurt to do some research on mind control while you’re at it. I would recommend any book by Steve Hassan.

  • March 10, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    Quoted mi only an example…. please…. generalazing is a mistake…
    FACT ….. D&C 10 quoted by Chris…. It speak only about the translation of the book of Mormon… and it came to pass one year before the church was organized…..ONLY… no bias or rejects anybody…. this is a fact… you can see ghosts everywhere, but is not the reality
    Please, only an example and speaking about that…

    • March 10, 2013 at 2:37 pm

      Santiago, whether D&C 10 was written before or after the LDS church is irrelevant in the context of Chris’ argument. The scripture is basically condemning any who subsequently disagree with the official teachings (or “testimony”) espoused in the book, regardless of whether there is an organization enforcing such teachings or not. The groundwork is thus laid from the Church’s inception for any who disagree with the writings of Joseph Smith (i.e. “apostates”) to be stigmatized. I fail to see how this is “out of context.”

      • March 10, 2013 at 3:46 pm

        Irrelevant????? IMAGINATION…. MANY IMAGINATION… fliping & fliping the verses it can see that everybody wants… but it is not real……
        D&C 10 dont say APOSTATE, OR REJECTS…. NOTHING ¡¡¡¡
        The only one is mencioned here like wicked man is Martin Harris, curiousily AFTER one of the THREE WHITNESSES of the Book of Mormon….. He personally saw the Golden Plates and the Angel Moroni….
        Of course all you reasoning is out of context, or not?

        • March 10, 2013 at 6:03 pm

          Mr. Santiago, if you are clear about who you are and where you are, then that is where you need to be.

        • March 11, 2013 at 1:02 am

          Santiago – with that last comment I’m quite happy to let you have the last word!

  • March 10, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Regarding brainwashing, I was a JW and I can say that I was brainwashed. I don’t think all JWs are brainwashed. But I was. Unless you’ve been brainwashed, you can’t really understand it fully. I can say it took a few years of not attending meetings and reading their literature, that I could start “coming out of the fog”, and began thinking critically about their teachings. Before that, there was nothing anyone could say to me that could convince me it wasn’t the Truth. Brainwashing is for real. It does happen. I speak from experience.

  • March 11, 2013 at 12:51 am

    Santiago: “The only one is mencioned here like wicked man is Martin Harris, curiousily AFTER one of the THREE WHITNESSES of the Book of Mormon….. He personally saw the Golden Plates and the Angel Moroni….”

    Did Harris PERSONALLY see the gold plates, Santiago? How could he as Joseph Smith had told everyone that anyone who saw the plates would die? Isn’t it more likely, as generally accepted, that the 7 plus 3 ‘witnesses’ merely saw the plates in vision or in dreams?

    Actually, while I’m about it, can you give me one example of unambiguous archaeology that clearly shows that the Jews were in America at the stated time in the Book of Mormon. I would be obliged.

    Frank V

    • March 11, 2013 at 2:30 am

      It was real… but everyone may believe what you want, I respect.
      About the historical veracity of de Book of Mormon is a very long topic…. Many parts have been tested, no others …. like The Bible.
      Actually I am studying Geographic and History in UNED from Spain and this a thrilling topic for me… but it’s larger…
      Only a example… can you read…
      La Relación de las cosas de Yucatán, es un libro manuscrito por el obispo español Diego de Landa, alrededor de 1566.
      In this book, a catholic bishop quoted traditions of mayas…. whith many similarities whith de Book of Mormon spoke.

  • March 11, 2013 at 1:55 am

    Fascinating article, and the comments here from Mormon’s are just proving the justification that Chris and other ex-Mormon’s have in their highlighting of problems within the LDS Church, and in their fundamental beliefs. The parallels between the way Mormon’s react to criticism and the way JW’s react to criticism of their belief system are stark. The more research I do, it becomes clearer and clearer that a pattern between these groups is emerging: they were all started by one arrogant man who thought he knew better than everyone else, incorporate mind-control techniques and bad logic to “prove” their points, and their inherent attitudes often cause deep psychological problems in the followers. These followers can’t logically prove “Apostates” wrong but instead can only mimic what they have been told is the “Truth”, because they’ve been told it is true: a vicious circle. The tragic thing is that these people need some kind of help, even it’s just to make their lives a little easier, but just can’t see it.

    I found an interesting article online a while back, which related that Mormon scholars themselves had found archaeological evidence proving a number of “facts” in the Book of Mormon wrong. Wish I could find it again…

  • March 11, 2013 at 2:08 am

    Thanks for your kindness, by my broken english I dont know if my expression is correct, did not mean to offend, I respect the beliefs of everybody, Sorry.

  • March 11, 2013 at 5:32 am

    You do not know what you are talking about.
    As a former JW I left 2 years permanently and one of reasons
    was mind control was obvious. The main reason I left was the
    hypocrisy, lack of genuine love and judgemental attitudes.

  • March 11, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Hi Santiago. I didn’t mean to frighten you off. I’m quite open-minded about most things. Many wondrous claims are made in the book of Mormon. Living in the scientific age we tend to go by what Carl Sagan said: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Above you give an example of archaeology, but obviously as I cannot read Spanish I cannot understand the information.

    Most Mormons are genuine in their faith and believe in upright family values. I’m sure you’re one of them, but there will be benefit to discussing what makes your faith real. Aren’t we all interested in getting the truth in the end?

    Frank V

  • March 11, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    Hi Frank, thanks for your kindness… I agree with you
    The archaeology is exciting for me. Is possible found this book in english wrote by Catholic Bishop in Yucatan in 1566 BC, is very interesting…
    And I think that the truth (not my truth) not fear to be examinated….

  • March 11, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    Hi Santiago. If it’s not too much trouble, can you supply the title and show exactly why this book excites you.

    I am aware that the Native Americans had crosses and there are ‘mysterious’ burial mounds. Do American museums, for instance, have a number of archaeological relics that show that Hebrew was spoken in the time the Book of Mormon is set?

    Also, is there any scientific forensic evidence that the Native American Indian DNA is dated back to Jewish DNA? I imagine there must be no shortage of evidence also of warfare and the ruins of many of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

    Frank V

  • March 11, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    Religious organizations need to allow their members and others to question them. By forming an organization that adheres to a certain set of values. They will be tested by those values, and if their history or presence fail to live up to those values. Then reform is required, otherwise members will leave and others will refuse to join them.

    Hate campaigns are bully tactics devoid of the spirit of Christ.
    In fact when Jesus questioned the religious leaders of his day
    what happened? Jesus exposed their hypocrisy, for that they killed him. Does that ring any bells!

    We are taught in scripture to, ” love your enemies.” Not hate them!
    How is this possible? By raising above a situation, never hating the person but rather the actions of that person or organization.
    Realizing that reform is always possible as our Heavenly Father gives rain to righteous and unrighteous. The example of charity. Individuals and organizations can reform. It only takes being truthful.

    Organizing hate campaigns only shows one has left the teachings of Christ. Perhaps with the aid of the internet we are entering into a new age of reformation.

    • March 12, 2013 at 5:48 am

      How do reform when many people paid with their lives holding to the teachings of the Watchtower. These Sundays are learned that they should not send nor sms or e-mail their family members. Someone’s son or daughter is going to die and be buried and the parent will not even know that it happened. Where is the love if that do. Are we human beings. I am from Bosnia. Mentally healthy people are really thinking. We can not say that they are mentally ill. How to change the doctrine of blood when many children died because of this teaching and parents are perhaps still alive. Or mom died and left the kids alone. GB might say this is a clear but teaching why other teaching constantly changing.

  • March 12, 2013 at 5:10 am

    I am not alone in this view here.

  • March 12, 2013 at 6:17 am

    Correction (not send SMS or e-mail to family members) who are no longer jw.

  • March 12, 2013 at 7:26 am

    On page jw.org (watchtower.org) we read about Candace Conti case. They said that the alleged abuse. Never has not reported the completion of the case. Is it honestly. The organization will pay damages Conti of our donations and we will not even know it. Why? Because of their wrong policies regarding the abuse of children. Why not just say that any doubts that they go to the police. Nobody goes to the police for no reason. Then pedophiles would not feel confident in meetings between us. I know here in Bosnia for a secret letter to the elders.

  • March 12, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Anonymous: “This book quoted maya traditions like their ancestors came from Palestine shipping boats… or your tradition of baptism by immersion… and others.”
    Very exciting….

    This is an interesting claim. What evidence does the author offer as evidence of this?

    What becomes the challenge of religions like Mormonism (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) is that many of the claims made such as that the Native Americans were descendents of a lost tribe of ancient Jews was made before the discovery of DNA and DNA testing.

    Though it’s controversial (only with Intelligent Design lobbyists apparently), modern DNA traced back via mitochondria (found mostly in female DNA, seems to show that our origins were in Africa.

    One would expect also the proliferation of archaeological evidence of the many battles that took place in the Book of Mormon to be at wide-spread sites.

    Often the dirth of extant ‘evidence’ is usually ‘verified’ mostly by Mormon research. I could be wrong. Would anyone like to correct me this? I’m open minded.

    Frank V

  • March 12, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Dear Frank
    Diego de Landa wrote his book about the testimonies from de mayans indians, he account his oral traditions, manners, wildlife, culture, etc.
    About DNA is complicated… first by the time… 2000 years ago is a lot of time. Second by a small group of persons arrived from Palestine and they were mixed with native people, coming from Asia… Even the investigations with the actual mayans just listed spanish DNA…. exciting, no?
    There are still many things without proof, but others are tested, e.g. search NAHOM at wikipedia, this is a necropolis founded in Yemen…. like say the Book of Mormon, in the travel by desert…
    1 Nephi 16

    33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.

    34 And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.

    Exciting… no?

  • March 13, 2013 at 5:09 am

    I guess you believe in Genesis 18:20, too. It reads “Consequently Jehovah said: “The cry of complaint about Sod′om and Go•mor′rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”

    Please, let those who complain today’s Sod’om and Gomor’rah complain in peace without your bringing in “confusion”. The cry is so loud you can’t silence us!!

  • March 13, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Hi Santiago. Thanks for the information. I think most people would have a problem with this fact:

    Quote: Some LDS archaeologists believe that they have located the site of Nahom as a settlement and tribal area known anciently and still today as “NHM” (see below). Critics doubt the link between Nahom and NHM, as well as having other criticisms. Unquote

    First of all only Mormon archaeologists are stated as having drawn these conclusions, and then there’s the matter of “some,” showing that even that some of these archaeologists seem not to agree.

    But this is fine. What else is there from the treasury of American archeology can you cite to excite me?

    Can you also tell me how many times the expression, ‘and it came to pass” appears in the Book of Mormon, please.

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